Thanks Clark supporters for teaching me that Reagan was good

[roughsatori]

I would like to thank some of you Clark Supporters. Not the ones who say Clark had a change of heart and head, and has seen the errors of his ways. But the Clark supporters who have defended voting for Reagan.

This is to those who have defended Clark's vote for Reagan, because they voted for Reagan, or their Mom did, or the old man next door did--so it is OK, according to them.

I have learned in the last few days about how Reagan "seemed like a good thing." How the Democratic party was "a mess back then."

I want to thank you, because back then I use to tell everyone that Reagan was a liar, incompetent, made a mess in South America, etc. I used to march in the streets because Reagan refused to even use the word "AIDS" in a speech for years, while my best friends died.

I was angry when the Reagan administration permitted companies to stop the health-care portion of pensions and cut the promised contractually obligated funds. But now I am grateful that my father lost his health-care due to that change, and his pension stipend was cut by 150%, because now I know it was a good choice at the time to
vote for Reagan.

So, I want to thank the Clark supporters for who have defended the Reagan vote. I did not know before how valid of a choice it was to vote for Dutch over a Democrat.

I am now ready for my lessons on how good a choice it was to vote for Nixon.

[lifelong_Dem]

1. I fully agree that Reagan was a horrible Prez...

...but the fact is that LOTS of people voted for him. Not just Republicans - he got plenty of independent and Democratic votes too.

[dfong63]

5. but, they're not running for pres

I fully agree that Reagan was a horrible Prez... but the fact is that LOTS of people voted for him. Not just Republicans - he got plenty of independent and Democratic votes too.

but those other people are not running for president themselves. and, Clark with his much-praised Rhodes scholarship and degree in economics, should have known better than to fall for Reagan's trickle-down crap. if he didn't, then he has no business running for office under the dem banner now.

and what about his lame answer at first, that he "didn't remember" who he voted for? a candidate for president, and can't even remember who he voted for, to be in the same office? that's ridiculous.

[Pastiche423]

15. Just because LOTS

of terribly misguided people voted for Reagan, does that make it right?

IMHO, HELL NO!

As bad as the vote for Reagan was, what really made my eyes see red was that he friggen voted for NIXON!

I excuse neither. His votes represent his make-up, his core beliefs.

I lived through both administrations. Nixon's saying fuck you to democracy. Reagan's for many atrocities, but one of the most sadly remembered was the closing of mental hospitals, throwing thousands out into the streets of my city San Francisco.

The clark supporters can defend those votes all they want, but it tells me they do not care about the DEMOCRATIC PARTY!

clark a true blue Democrat? BULLSHIT!

[noiretextatique]

16. even some democrats knew better

there was considerable opposition to raygun, even in 1980. not everyone was duped by his simplistic, regressive 'vision.' he reminds me a lot of the current occupant of the white house.

[CMT]

2. watch out, here they come

I welcome the General to the party but still have a problem giving the Democratic nomination to a man who voted for Nixon, Reagan, and probably the first George Bush in 1988.

[Bertrand]

8. yeah, probably

because he never claimed to be a democrat since 1991 when he changed because of Clinton.

[newsguyatl]

3. i think

many of the clark supporters here would make excuses even if they found out clark was a bush operative, saying, too, that maybe he had a change of heart...

it's amazing really...




funny, too, how all these kerry supporters are coming to the aid of clark (think what you will) and taking up for him, yet kerry HIMSELF in the boston globe today had harsh words for clark voting for reagan and nixon...



this place gets funnier and funnier everyday....




thing is, i'm not laughing.

[JohnKleeb]

4. before my internet went down on me

I saw many Dean supporters not saying you did but some considered Dean as a Veep. Just my recollection. Most Kucinich supporters including me have always been iffy on Clark. Just saying.

[sandnsea]

11. Making excuses

Same is true of Dean supporters. Somebody posted a thread about Dean saying he wasn't a liberal. And all the Deanie's chimed in that he wasn't, one said he'd been "smeared" with the label.

Well I specifically remember posts; "wink wink", we all know what the Democratic wing of the Democratic party means, and he'll run a centrist campaign but he'll legislate as a liberal, and he's tough to peg.

But then when Dean actually moves to the center, he's "evolved".

Plenty of hilarity to go around. Except, as you say, it's really not funny.

[OKNancy]

6. Reagan was pathetic

I still support Clark. You don't like Clark? Don't vote for him.
Posts like this aren't going to change anyones mind.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

10. Reagan Was Pathetic....

I have never voted R in my life....

Not in nearly three decades of voting...

But I'll give Wes Clark a pass....

If Saul can become Paul on the road to Damascus and go from a persecutor of Christians to their champion than Wes can change parties...

None of us are beyond redemption....



on edit-since I am pure I can give Clark absolution for his "sins".....

[DoveTurnedHawk]

7. You Are So Much More Pure and Superior Than Us

Please have mercy on us poor, misguided mortals.

DTH

[IndianaGreen]

12. Perhaps you see nothing wrong in Raygun and his 8 years of horror

Many of us though see Reagan not as a gentle grandfatherly figure, but as a man that nearly bankrupted this country, unleashed death squads and terrorists against progressive forces in Latin America, and gutted the safety net for Americans. There was nothing benign about Ronald Reagan, and any Democrat that fails to recognize that, is not the sort of person that should be rewarded with the 2004 Democratic Presidential nomination.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

17. Of Course *I* Recognize Reagan's Reign Was Bad

And I bet that if you ask Clark what he thinks of Reagan now, he will be much less enthused than he once was.

That is hindsight, however. 59% of the country voted for Reagan, including an absolute shitload of military folks.

If people want to pat themselves on the back for always being opposed to Reagan, fine. But making a vote from 20+ years ago some kind of litmus test is just stupid, IMO.

DTH

[roughsatori]

21. I do feel superior to anyone who voted for Reagan and Nixon

and Raised money for Republicans in 2001 by being a keynote speaker. Yes I honestly do. And will NEVER vote for anyone to be President who did so.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

26. Shoot Yourself in the Foot As Many Times As You Want

If you're so blinded by your hate of Clark that you'd prefer to leave the current pretender in office, there's nothing else that I or anyone reasonable can really say to you.

DTH

[roughsatori]

36. You are using the new right-wing "meme" that my "hate" is blinding me

I am not surprised. I do not hate Clark. I hated Reagan and will not vote for anyone who voted for him and helped the GOP in 2001.

[SaintLouisBlues]

58. But in your post, expressing contrition is OK. Which is it?

Then you say you'll never vote for anyone who voted for Reagan.

I also voted twice for the Dems vs. Ronny. But it is pretty harsh
to rule someone out for eternity because of votes from two decades
ago.

This whole subject ties into the ridiculous Clark is a Repuke mole theory. But if he's a mole, why are Rove & Co. hitting Clark so hard? Unhappy that their mole is leading the early beauty contest polls?

At some level one must trust what their candidate says. Those
with electoral political experience can back up their rhetoric, but must still be trusted to do what they say after they are elected.

With Clark's blank slate we are forced to make a much bigger leap of faith that he means what he says. But no political record can also be a huge plus. Dean's gay-marriage association will be blown way out of proportion, as an example.

I don't think we should ditch what may be a juggernaut candidate because people have watched the Manchurian Candidate a few too many times.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

31. 50% of DUers Said They Voted R At One Time

in a poll I started....


Since I never voted R in my entire life does that mean I am morally superior to them...

[roughsatori]

38. And none of you have declared that you are running for President

Clark has--that is the difference.

[Bertrand]

44. As a democrat

and having voted for Clinton twice and Gore in 2000.

[Pepperbelly]

48. so you wouldn't vote for our homies on account of that?

:shrug:

[Pepperbelly]

9. why don't you guys give everyone a break?

Even yourself. Such anger is bound to be raising your blood pressure and causes you headaches. Just relax for a minute. Your campaign to discredit Wes Clark at every turn is becoming ... silly. This is the only contribution I intend to have in this thread.

Just relax for a bit and see what happens. No need to get your bowels in an uproar.

[dfong63]

46. yeah, don't worry, be happy, go away, and shut up

no thanks.

[Pepperbelly]

49. just let go of the ...

gulping, hyperventilating, hysterical, knee-jerk screeching for a bit and see if your headaches improve.

[Cappurr]

13. You know what amuses me about these threads?

It is how little some posters think before they post. Don't you realize that there is NO WAY anyone can prove who Clark voted for. He himself said who he voted for. I call that honesty. I call that courage.

Did anyone know who Bill Clinton voted for before he ran for Prez? I sure didn't.

[roughsatori]

30. In other words you still think it wise to have voted for Reagan?

Yes, I guess people who admit to being Brown-Shirts deserve so much credit for admitting it--even if they never publicly explain the mistake.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

33. See Ya

:eyes:

DTH

[Cappurr]

45. I didn't say it was wise to vote for Regan...

But your post equating Regan voters with brown shirts isn't terribly wise either. You don't want to vote for Clark. Fine. We get it. Why are you beating a dead horse? Vote for Bush for all I care....he ws probably too drunk to vote for Regan.

[papau]

14. I agree - and was out there with you in spirit - but I welcome Clark!

Never too late to see the lite!

or something like that!

I remember when I went over to Reagan's townhouse office off Laffette Square after he had just won - and this horney fellow with gray hair about to be President is stumbling about

And then his hair became black a few weeks later -

and by Xmas he was telling folks it was always black - they never saw it gray - and to stop saying it had been gray. It was then I knew I hated the SOB. Or perhaps shortly thereafter when I realized how tight with Reagan was my boss - Ike's former Asst Sec of Commerce named Olmstead who had been in charge of the Atoms for Peace program that gave Pakistan the atomic bomb - and began to note the (apparently every week ? I did not stay to track) every Thursday dinner with Reagan at the WH.

What a lying sack of shit.

But from the TV all the media let you see was this happy happy person that was going to replace the stern Carter. And the media said so what about all the jobs and econ growth and bringing the USSR to its knees that Carter had done (the USSR via the budget and a CIA report I "saw" - "heard about" in 79 that said that supporting the Afghan fighters by the USA would bankrupt the USSR - and that indeed the USSR slide to bankrupcy was already started and most likely could not be stopped) - Carter had high interest rates - to kill the inflation that the Ford oil shock - and then the second oil shock in Carter's first year - had caused - and high interest rates with inflation falling was bad - please ignore that the econ was doing well.

God - our media does play with us. We got rid of a stern face and got a happy face that screwed us.

But I can see how someone could vote for happy - there was no media on how Reagan had hurt the mentally ill in CA - or on his sex life - or his habit of telling lies, or on how he was owned by GE. I do love our liberal media!

[roughsatori]

24. Thank you for getting the point, that some people regret that choice

I was going after those who defend that as a valid choice.

[nadinbrzezinski]

18. Here is something that many do not understand

Clark voting for Reagan did not shock me, many in the Armed Forces
did.

By the same token, many in the Armed Forces had a change of heart
after teh Reagan \ Bush years.

Hey by that brush my brother in law is also a closet conservative.
(What a crock, he is far more liberal than I am), he was in the
armed forces at the time, and he voted for Reagan... then came
the COLA suspentions and the yaers of fighting to keep salaries
up to the rate of inflation, mostly with no success...

that changed many people's minds and the disconnect of the military
with the GOP began. Right now there is a real hew and clamor against
the current administration and the old hands are reminding the young
ones of Reagan and how he also betrayed the armed forces.

Repubs are great for toys, nobody will deny this.. but they are terrible in treating the troops. They forget, you need people to run
them damn fangled toys.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

19. Most Democrats I know over 40 voted for Reagan

Why? I have no idea.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

20. Born In 58

Voted For

Carter

Carter

Mondale

Dukakis

Clinton

Clinton

Gore....

I am pure.... I am without the taint of a Republican vote... I hereby give Wes Clark absolution for his "sins"....

[Cappurr]

25. Only Republican I ever voted for

was Ford. (Other than some local contests where friends of mine were running. ) But since the 2000 election and the Republican mantra "don't count the votes" I have vowed NEVER to vote Republican again, not even locally. And I've had some pretty hot arguments with a couple of friends of mine who were working for local republican candidates and I refused to go to fundraisers or anything (which I had done in the past). But the 2000 election did it for me. Never again.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

29. Ford Was A Fundamentally Decent Man

pro choice, pro ERA, pro affirmative action....

but I could never bring myself to vote for a Republican...

[JohnKleeb]

37. he is you mean, still alive Jerry Ford is

wouldnt vote for him either but not a bad guy I agree.

[noiretextatique]

22. reagan's appeal was about race and class

and that's why so many were duped by him. he campaigned on a regressive message of "making america great...again." it was code language for his plans to "right the wrongs" of the success of various social movements, including the civil rights movement, and to redistribute income being 'wasted' on the poor. it was no coincidence that the "welfare queen" imagery he used was the very embodiment of this message.

[Cha]

51. Let's hope we as a People are Not "duped" again!

[noiretextatique]

55. if 'we' are...i'm outta here

canada is looking mighty good :hi:

[davidinalameda]

23. blah blah blah

I guess people aren't allowed to change their minds, opinions and whatnot.

We have to keep the same opinions all the time or something is wrong with us.

Who gives a rat's fanny what he did 20 years ago?

[roughsatori]

28. You should reread the post

I was discussing people who are defending the choice of Reagan in the last 2 weeks. Perhaps you should start giving a rat's fanny about that. Also, he helped raise money in 2001 by being a keynote speaker at a Republican fundraiser. But I guess you don't give a rat's fanny about what a candidate did 2 years ago.

[Pastiche423]

35. It isn't so much

that people can or cannot change their minds, it's considering a man who would not say he was a Democrat a mere fifteen days before he announced he was running for president on that party's ticket!

His ideology was ingrained by the age of 44. His "change of heart" is for one reason and one reason only, expediency.

[Pepperbelly]

27. REad this and then say he's a closet gop ...

"But you don't have a chance if you can't find a job. I don’t think it penetrates the minds of this Administration what it must be like for a factory worker to arrive home to his family with the news that he’s been laid off. What it must be like not to know what the future holds for your children, because you don’t know what the future holds for you. What it must be like to see the government take hundreds of billions of dollars that could be used to fund job training, unemployment benefits, or jobs programs – and instead to send that money off to people who have such staggering wealth that the new money won’t make the tiniest improvement in their lifestyle. What it must be like to be told that tax cuts for the rich are necessary to create jobs for working people, and then to see jobs fall month after month for more than 30 months. If that doesn’t break your heart, you don’t have a heart."

Some gop, huh?

:eyes:

[roughsatori]

32. That was not what I said in the original post

I was talking about people actually defending the Reagan vote.

[Pepperbelly]

41. I never addressed it at all ...

it was and is irrelevant to me. At the time, I suspect that he was pretty apolitical and in fact, when I was in the military, even finding out what was going on enough to have any opinion was a challenge and one that I often fell far short of. I didn't vote for a gop when I was in nor did I vote for a Democrat. I just didn't vote.

Hard to know what's going on in Little Rock when you're in Taiwan.

[noiretextatique]

39. he woke up...i think it's great

a lot of people did.

[Pepperbelly]

43. he woke up BIG! nt

[cyr330]

34. call to Karl Rove?

I read this week that Clark had stated to a colleague that, "I would have been a Republican, but they never called." This was supposedly said when the Bush II Admin. did not call Clark to ask him to join the administration in its battle with terrorists in the immediate aftermath of 911. What I really want to know: is this just Republican propaganda or did Clark really say it? If Clark really said it, I've got absolutely no use for him, and he's already treading on very, very thin ice with his previous votes for Nixon, Reagan, and (probably) Bush I. Clark was an adult when he made those choices, and I would be most interested in how he decides to defend his vote for those moronic assholes.

I want to see Bush defeated, but I have no wish to replace Bush with another Republican.

[roughsatori]

40. That statement has been debunked by Clark supporters

There are links that support them in the debunking of the "statement." It shows that is was a smear. I don't have them bookmarked, someone else may.

[gully]

42. he he. thanks for the chuckle

:thumbsup:

[Zuni]

47. Reagan's policies are not Wes Clark's fault

alot of people voted for him. Hey, people do make mistakes.

[KoKo]

50. Running....Yelling Out of the ROOM....with this post! REAGAN GOOD??

It's time for you to hit our opposite site (FR) if anyone here on DU is an apologist for REAGAN

We've been invaded by TROLLS! Can't believe this post!

[Kahuna]

52. I don't defend voting for Reagan. You get a pass for his

first term maybe. But TWICE?!!!!???

The only conceivable pass I could give to Clark is that maybe he was stationed out of the country and didn't get to see how evil Reagan was to the underpriviledged.

[cally]

53. I loathed Reagan

in a way close to how we loathe the chimp. I do not forgive Clark this vote or the many DUers who supported him. I just don't. This man promoted ignorance, stupidity, racism, and the disintegration of the America I love. He sold it with a pretty smile and great words but he is evil. Clark has to explain these votes.

I'm concerned about Clark's commitment to the Dems. If he doesn't show up to support Davis then I cannot support him. The recall is a travesty of the political process. Clark has to show that he understands partisan politics and can fight back against the repuke takeover. He has to show that he is a Dem.

[neuvocat]

54. Thank you for being a republican.

You know, this is the kind of senseless dogmatic bullshit that the pukes have used not only against their fellow americans but also their fellow republicans.

This is the kind of crap that reminds me of how the republicans acted when Jim Jeffords went independent-including taking his picture and putting it in the bottoms of urinals.

These posts are pathetic. They are a waste of time. If you're going to put up this facetious nonsense then you might as well realize you're not changing anyone's minds about who they want to vote for.

[retyred]

56. Be afraid, be very afraid

CLARK FOR PRESIDENT
Retyred IN FLA.

[JVS]

57. Give those turncoats hell!