Are all "race"-based clubs fundamentally racist?

[_Jumper_]

I ask this because there is a controversy right now about a young woman who wants to start a "Caucasian Club" in her California school. Some people, including the NAACP, are denouncing it is racist. In my view, logically, you can either consider all race-based clubs fundamentally racist and therefore oppose them or think they all are okay and support them. You can't cherry-pick which one is racist and which one isn't.

Personally I believe all race-based clubs are fundamentally racist. They perpetuate and condone an "us vs. them" mentality which is the fountainhead of racism.

Here is the URL for an article about this:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2003/09/20/MN227767.DTL

[Fescue4u]

1. Of course.

Creating a club based on race is racist....The very definition of the word racist is about selection or exclusion based on race.

IMO, the simpliest and most fair thing to do is to eliminate racism altogether and in all forms (including AA)

[_Jumper_]

4. It can't be eliminated with a stroke of a pen

Eliminating it will take time. Racism declines each day as a more tolerant generation replaces older generations. We should do everything we can to accelerate the process. Race-based clubs retard the process by fostering "racial" identities and the corollaries of "racial" identities are prejudice and discrimination.

For the record, although I think they are pointless, I would not object to the formation of ethnic clubs.

[Shrek]

5. Except that . . .

. . . none of the clubs mentioned, including the so-called "Caucasian club" is exclusionary. Students of any race are welcome to join any of them.

If no one is being excluded or marginalized, I can't see a rationale for calling it racist.

If a group of students want to get together and study a particular history or heritage, and all races are welcome, where's the harm?

[_Jumper_]

23. Race is a fraud

Promoting the concept of race inevitably leads to problems IMO. We need to eliminate the concept, not create clubs based on it.

[Romberry]

7. Actually, to be racist....

...by the first dictionary definition would require some belief or desire for superiority over those who are different. Think "KKK". Racist organizations are about dominion and power over others because racists believe they are superior.

AA clubs are about minorities sharing heritage. We already have quite a few "white peoples" clubs. How many blacks do you see at "Daughters of the Confederacy"? How many blacks do you see playing golf at Augusta?


ra·cism

ra·cism (r?siz´?m) noun

1. The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.

[_Jumper_]

14. Do you think the Daughters of the Confederacy are racist?

Or are they just a historically repressed minority trying to preserve their heritage in your view?

ra·cism (r?siz´?m) noun

1. The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.

"The belief that race accounts for differences in human character." Aren't race-based clubs based on the premise that race accounts for differences in character?

[Romberry]

43. The ones I know are in fact...

...closet racists. I live in Alabama. I'm surrounded by it. I don't know anyone that's involved with preserving their "Confederate Heritage" that isn't somehow wishing for the "good old days" when the "darkies" knew their "proper place".

[_Jumper_]

47. What about other racial clubs?

Do you think most of the people that join racial clubs believe in equality for all and color-blindess?

[Romberry]

2. I don't think that's a logical view

On the one hand you have minorities, historically repressed, trying to preserve the bonds of common heritage. On the other hand you have the majority whose ancestors did the repressing and whose culture is dominant in print, in broadcast and in day to day life. It's an apples and oranges comparison.

I have no problem at all with an "Indian Club" or "African American Club". They aren't about "us versus them", they are about not forgetting who "us" is.

[_Jumper_]

12. What common heritage?

Ethnic clubs are okay. African-American is a vertiable ethnicity IMO. However, what does a first or second generation African immigrant have in common with African-Americans besides color? Hispanic and Asians are a collection of disparate groups with distinct heritages. What heritage are those clubs trying to preserve? They are promoting racial identity and that leads to problems.

You lumped all minorities into one group. Isn't that "us and them" thinking? I am not saying you are racist but your thinking is what these groups promote and perpetuate.

[htuttle]

16. There is a difference

What you describe are clubs that celebrate a particular culture. They are non-exclusionary, in my experience. You don't need to be Irish to go to Irishfest!

There isn't a 'Caucasian Culture', Martin Mull's work notwhithstanding. Historically, the grouping of 'Caucasians' together has only been done for racist purposes. Ask the British how similar they are to the French (or the French to the Germans. And what about the Swedes?). What common cultural values would a Caucasian Club celebrate?

[_Jumper_]

19. Correct

The same can be said about "Latino" and "Asian" culture can't it?

[htuttle]

29. Yes and no

More often than not, Latino and Asian cultural groups are primarily Latino-American and Asian-American cultural groups. They tend to focus on the experience of people of their background in America, which is a shared culture.

America's mainstream culture doesn't seem to recognize different nationalities as 'relevant' where non-European immigrants are concerned. While the Irish immigrants were (and still are, generations later) recognized as distinctly 'Irish', and the Italians as 'Italians', more often than not, people from anywhere south of Texas are thought of as 'Latino'. The same goes for Asian-Americans (although somewhat less so).

Think of all the famous Latinos you know of. Do you have any idea where in Central or South America their ancestors came from? I think most people assume that all Latinos come from Mexico.

So in that sense, there is a difference between the cultural concepts of 'Latino', 'Asian', and 'White', at least in the United States.

[_Jumper_]

31. There is no shared Asian or Latin culture

Each group has its own distinct culture. Japanese-Americans have as much in common with Italian-Americans as they do with Indian-Americans.

[Jerky_LeBoeuf]

65. There is, however, the shared experience of NOT BEING WHITE...

and all that goes with that in this culture of ours.

[noiretextatique]

102. GREAT POINT!!!

excellent point, in fact :thumbsup:

[mandyky]

3. That's like saying all sex is bad unless you procreate.

Or that because there is rape, child molestation, etc that all sexx is bad.

Racist groups are groups that claim one race is superior to all other. I have no problem with a Caucasian club until they put other races down, or the NAACP because they uplift Black folks without tearing down other races - however the KKK only show their "white supremacy" by demeaning other races.

[LiberalVoice]

6. I agree.

While i do think that all raced based clubs perpetuate an "us vs. them" mentality. I think all the press is b/c its called the "Caucasion Club". The thing about it is, is that the word caucasion makes people nervous. Which is unfair. Had she named the group similar to any of the names of the race related clubs at her school for example Caucasion Student Union(Black Student Union) or Caucasions United(Latinos Unidos) it would still be "vehemently opposed".

[noiretextatique]

8. i don't think so...depends on its purpose

if it's a hate-inspired, like a KKK or aryan nations club...or if the club restricts memebership to a specific race, i would say it's racist. it doesn't sound like this club is anything like that, quite the opposite in fact.
far too much ado about nothing, imho.

[dfong63]

9. what about a "jewish community center", a "portuguese dance hall", etc?

ethnic "clubs" of this type are common.

are they racist too?

and what about the "boy" scouts? isn't that another kind of discriminatory grouping? does that lead to an "us vs them" mentality? why or why not?

[_Jumper_]

20. They are different

Ethnic clubs are ethnocentric but they at least celebrate some legitimate culture. Morever, ethnicity isn't a major problem in America due to that fact that there is no dominant ethnicity.

Gender-based groups such as the boy scouts are discriminatory. They don't lead to an "us and them" mentality. There is an "us and them" mentality between men and women anyway. They key is to make sure that the differences don't lead to discrimination.

[Solomon]

10. I strongly disagree, Jumper.

It's obvious you are a member of majority. Some people have to get together to protect themselves, nothing to do with racism. Blacks would still be riding the back of the bus and whites would see nothing wrong with it.

The playing field is not level. That's why starting a white club seems ominous. I think it's a stupid knee-jerk reaction. However, I see nothing wrong with it. I think whites should be able to feel good about themselves too, if they can do it without putting others down.

Go ahead. Make all the caucasian clubs you want. Who cares?

[_Jumper_]

18. I'm of Pakistani descent

I'm part of the group of people in this nation that are the most persecuted. If it wasn't for the concepts of ethnicity and race I wouldn't be in the mess I'm in...

[noiretextatique]

30. what is your solution?

are you from the ward connerly school of sticking one's head in the sand and pretending there are no differences...are you? one of the ways statistics on race is used is to determine need for certain social services. for example, statistics on violence against anyone remoting resembling the current profile of a terrorist, could be used to prove that such violence is exists. one of the consequences of the concepts of race and ethnicity in america: far too many people don't believe you are in a mess because of your race/ethnicity.

[_Jumper_]

32. Where did I denounce the collection of statistics?

I simply see no reason celebrating the false concepts of race and racial identity.

What differences are there? Do you believe race accounts for differences in character?

[noiretextatique]

36. i don't think the concepts are false

nor do i have a problem with celebrating diversity...it just is. the problem, of course, is exploiting and manipulating differences...to dominate, control, lessen, and belittle.

is the rose's beauty any less beautiful because the daffodil exists? no...each is beautiful. does the rose hate the daffodil because it is a different type of flower? no...they coexist, unconscious of their differences. diversity just is...it is only a problem because we have made it a problem. peace.

p.s. here in california, our very own self-appointed anti-race crusader, ward connerly & co, have a ballot measure that if enacted, could make the collections of racial statistics more difficult. one of the many problems this might create...hendering the ability to identify the needs of certain communties. colorblind attitudes are great, however, until those attitudes are reflected in the realities of society, measures like uncle ward's may actually do more to hurt than to help.

[_Jumper_]

40. So you believe in race...

...please explain your view of race and what the importance of it is. What races do you believe exist? What traits do you associate with these races?

[noiretextatique]

45. i believe my EYES: i see the differences in the way people look

in their hair texture and skin color. i see differences in language and culture. and to me...it just IS...like diversity in the natural world just IS. :shrug: what is so difficult to grasp? people are the same, in the same sense that both roses and daffodils are both flowers. people are different, in the same sense that roses and daffodils are different. it's quite simple, really.

[_Jumper_]

49. There is more to it...

...you apparently attach some significance to differences in hair texture and skin color. What significance does it have in your mind? Surely a mere difference is not a reason to form a club to celebrate it.

Do you attach importance to shoe size or eye color? Would you support a club for brown-eyed people or for people with large feet?

[noiretextatique]

51. apparently YOU attach a significance

to hair texture and skin color that i do not...because NOTHING in my post indicates that i do.

the significance i attach to it: I NOTICE IT. in much the same way i notice a rose is different from a daffodil. :shrug:

again...the question is: what significance does that have in YOUR MIND? this seems to be a BIG ISSUE...FOR YOU.

perhaps you should stop projecting, and start being more honest.

[_Jumper_]

53. You appeared to support race-based clubs in this thread

Do you? If so, why do you think it is good to have clubs based on race? Moreover, you implied that race-based clubs are okay because "there are diffences". What are those differences? Surely you wouldn't start a club solely based on hair texture and color. Therefore I assume that you must attach some other significance to "race".

[noiretextatique]

55. i thought is was you who was arguing the "common history"

and by extension, the common culture of african-americans. so :wtf: is your problem? if people share more than just a common race, as you have argued, then why do you assume this club, and others like it, are simply about race?

could it be: YOUR ISSUE with race surfacing, again? based on you own argument, these clubs could be more about sharing a common history and culture than about race...correct? but, perhaps it's the titles you are stuck on. if you read the article you posted, the young lady who wanted to start this "caucasian" club seemed interested in doing more than just hanging out with other white people.

STOP PROJECTING, please!
i have told you SEVERAL times that i see race the same way i see DIVERSITY IN THE NATURAL WORLD...as something that just IS. it is neither good, nor, bad, and it is not indifferent...it just IS.

if only we humans could accept that as in ourselves as we do in nature...

vs. either pretending we aren't different at all, or attaching some significance to those differences. both views are assinine.

[_Jumper_]

59. Reply

"if people share more than just a common race, as you have argued, then why do you assume this club, and others like it, are simply about race?"

Whites, Asians, Latinos, and Native Americans each are groups that impute many disparate groups with different histories and cultures into one large group. There is no Latino or white culture. Hence, in my view, it is rcist to create a Latino or white club.


"if you read the article you posted, the young lady who wanted to start this "caucasian" club seemed interested in doing more than just hanging out with other white people."

She created a club to celebrate white culture. There is no such thing as white culture. If she created an Irish or Italian club I wouldn't mind. Her claim that she wants a diverse group of people to join her group is purely for PR reasons. She knows that hardly any non-whites will join a club to celebrate a non-existent white culture.

"if only we humans could accept that as in ourselves as we do in nature...
vs. either pretending we aren't different at all, or attaching some significance to those differences. both views are assinine."


Why celebrate skin color and hair texture? Why aren't there any clubs based on eye or hair color? Why aren't there any clubs based on hand or feet size? "Racial" differences are celebrated because people attach a significance to them that is not ascribed to other physical characteristics.

[noiretextatique]

62. you are purposely obtuse

if people share a common history, culture, etc...which YOU have argued, then why do you keep ignoring that as it relates to the purpose of forming a club? what you do you keep insisting its just about race? if you read the article you posted, you may notice this girl was not interested in forming a club for the purpose of celebrating her hair texture and eye color. your misrepesentation is yet another clue about your own issues regarding this subject.

you claim african-americans share a common history...why isn't that true of european americans?

[_Jumper_]

70. Asians, Latinos, and Europeans don't share a common culture

They myriad of groups that are subsumed for demographic purposes into one large group came here at various times with different cultures and have had different histories here.

[noiretextatique]

86. you didn't list the "race" clubs

waiting....

the same is true of the group called african-americans, btw.

[LanternWaste]

111. I belong to "Lefties Are Right Too"

I belong to "Lefties Are Right Too" (A small club for left handed people to trade info on new left-handed products coming out on the market).

I hope I'm not minimizing or marginalizing right-handed people by doing this.

If I found out there existed a "Righties Are Right Too" club, for the purpose of right handed people to trade info on new right-handed products on the market (like my club), I'd think to myself, "Now that's just plain silly. This is a right-handed world."

That's just my opinion.

[Karenina]

56. It's OBVIOUS

that there's a serious identification with the majority culture, ancestry notwithstanding, THAT being used as a ploy for credibility.
Can you spell "passing?" :silly:

Oh, Solomom, I'm so naughty!!! :hi:

[_Jumper_]

60. Please support that assertion with...

...*whisper* FACTS

[Solomon]

93. Hi Karenina and Noiretblu.

Don't you get it yet. Jumper's problem is no Pakistani clubs founded yet. Or perhaps, like many non-whites, he subconsciously has a problem with being non-white. By banning all such clubs, he/she can pretend to be white.

The solution to the problem is not to ban kids from associating the way they want. But by allowing all of them to do so. Hence, I have no problem with caucasian clubs. Pakistani clubs, whatever.

In other words. Just because somebody wants to try to create an issue about race based associations by setting up an caucasian club doesn't mean you have to throw the baby out with the bath water.

As I've said so often here, some white people need to deal with their fear of melting into the gene pool. I think the fear is natural. I would rather discuss and talk about ways of dealing with this fear, than pretending it doesn't exist and then blowing up brown countries all over the world. I think allowing these whites to have their college caucasian clubs is a way of letting off some of the steam. In fact, if whites want to create some kind of reservation to go and preserve themselves, then I say, let them do it, as long as they're not trying to get the choicest piece of land and shutting everybody else out.

I'd rather let them go and live by themselves if they want to, than continue this f**ked up way of dealing with the fear, i.e. trying to hurt and kill off all the non-white people you can.

[DrWeird]

11. The Young Republicans are pretty well tolerated.

There's an all white club for you.

[_Jumper_]

21. "There is an all white club for you."

Just because I oppose race-based clubs I'm a racist? I'm not even of European descent. :eyes:

[directinfection]

38. ugh!

They just started one up at my college. Makes me want to puke. If you try to talk to them, they just yell at you and call dean a facist. Either that or complain about liberals taking over the school.

[_Jumper_]

41. Are there any other race-based clubs at your school?

If so, what is your opinion of those groups?

[Nikia]

13. They have a variety of purposes

Some race based clubs are civil rights organizations, like the NACCP (which did have some white members in my home area.) Some are about cultural heritage and may involve hosting dinners and dances that are themed on that heritage. Some are about providing a support group for minority groups where they may be relatively small in number such as race based clubs at elite private colleges. Many clubs embrace all of these aspects. I guess that white culture is seen as American culture so that whites would have no reason to celebrate their culture, advance civil rights since they are the privleged, and usually are in the majority in numbers. From the article, it sounds like the student wants a club to speak about race and diversity. Maybe she should take that approach. On the otherhand, race based groups often do address those issues.

[mandyky]

15. I think groups like NOW and NAACP allow

other gender/races to join. If a Caucasian Club allowed all to join that would be one thing, if it was exclusive another.

[JohnKleeb]

17. I dunno

A cacusian club huh, man we whities are pretty diverse lol. I joke that I aint your typical white boy, lol though I think what I mean is I aint Anglo. What about like Ethnic clubs I think that would be ok about race based club shrug I dunno I have never got involved in one.

[_Jumper_]

22. Ethnic clubs are okay IMO

.

[DrWeird]

24. So than AA clubs are OK, IYO?

nt

[_Jumper_]

26. AA=Asian American or African-American?

African-American is essentially a distinct ethnicity. Those clubs are okay as long as they are just for African-Americans whose families came here as slaves. If they include recent African immigrants who ave distinct heritages then it is simply a race-based club and I would oppose them.

Asian American is a spurious group that imputes disparate groups into one due to geography. Those clubs don't preserve or celebrate heritage; they simply promote an Asian racial identity IMO so I oppose them.

[noiretextatique]

27. you gotta

be kidding me.

[_Jumper_]

28. Please elucidate

:D

[noiretextatique]

33. LOL...ok one, i don't think the group called

"african-americans" are not really a distinct ethinicity. many of us have indian and european roots also...to one degree or another. i know a group of black indians who only associate with other black indians. some have more creole/caribbean roots, and others, like myself, have fairly recent african roots. i am totally ignorant about creole culture, but i have friends who enlighten me. there are many sub-cultures in african-america.
socially/politically however, many of us may have similar experiences of what it means to "look african" in this culture. i think this is what most of the AA groups are about. and, i've found more recently arrived africans tend to associate more with each other than with those of us who have been here for a while.

[_Jumper_]

42. Don't most African-Americans share a common history?

That is the glue that makes them one distinct group IMO.

[noiretextatique]

48. "most"...i don't know if most do

any more than most whites share a common history. i think what is shared is a common 'experience' in this culture.

[_Jumper_]

50. Most African-American don't have ancestors...

...who suffered slavery and Jim Crow????? I was under the impression that they did.

[noiretextatique]

54. since jim crow only officially ended less than 50 years ago

many people alive today suffered under jim crow, like my parents. and of course, when i was a child, it still existed, but since i grew up in california, wasn't aware of it.

i do think most african-americans probably had an ancestor who was a slave, and thus do share that common "experience." i think, however, i still take issue with the notion of a common history...but it's a minor semantic point, so i'll concede it.

[DrWeird]

57. Hmmm, I'd say...

If you isolate a group of people based pretty much solely on the color of their skin for a few hundred years, they will naturally develop a distinct culture. Developing the traditional hallmarks of a unique culture such as music, heroes, movements, film, cuisine, holidays, etc. And said people are bound to pass this on to their children well after the social boundries disappear. So I'd have to say that there certainly is an african american culture. In addition to the subcategories of black/native american, creole, etc. Not that I support labelling, or anything.

And the same can probably be said about the asian american community, to an extent. Since they've had similar experiences of being groups into one segregated race in american history. Despite having obviously many different ethnicities.

Same can be said of latinos.

I'm willing to bet, however, that the person who created the caucasian club was less interested in celebrating his/her culture than celebrating his/her percieved superiority of his/her culture.

[noiretextatique]

58. that's what the article indicates, drweird

i believe she actually wanted to discuss some real issues...like exactly what "race" means. since this seems to be an issue for the author of this thread, it's puzzling to me that he didn't read the article :eyes:

agreed about culture. i only took issue with the poster because i wanted to discuss some of the nuances in the culture...as in, not all black people are "the same," and not all black people have the same history. it's a minor point, but i didn't like the undertones of the discussion. peace...and great post.

[_Jumper_]

61. True but it that isn't the case for Latinos and Asians

Asians and Latinos are a collection of disparate groups that have distinct cultures. Lations and Asians don't classify themselves in racial terms. They consider themselves "Cuban", "Mexican", "Chinese", or "Korean", not "Latino" or "Asian".

These groups have lived separately. I don't believe they've had similar experiences. For instance, have Pacific Rim Asians had the same experience as South Asians since 9/11? The answer clearly is no.

[DrWeird]

66. So then the Latin Grammies...

are about honoring contemporary music of ancient romans?

[_Jumper_]

71. That is an exception

Walk up to any Latino and ask them what they identify themselves as. Virtually none will call themselves Latino first.

[DrWeird]

79. Walk up to a latino and ask if they're latino.

4 out of 5 latinos agree.

[LeahMira]

106. Common history...

Don't most African-Americans share a common history?

Not necessarily. As you know, there are dozens of nations on the continent of Africa and although the African slaves who were brought here in chains were originally from a few nations on the west coast of Africa, each of those nations, tribes, and such had its own history, traditions, language and culture.

Also, slaves were brought here in large numbers in the 1800s, but African people were here before that. Their experiences as shaped by the part of the country where they lived and the circumstances in which they lived were different from the experiences of those who were enslaved.

Then there's the fact that during the Civil Rights era (from the late 1950s on) some were more militant than others, some found a spiritual "home" with Martin Luther King, Jr. while others were attracted to Malcolm X and still others weren't particularly political at all means that the history of African "ideology" is varied .

Finally, when we speak of Black Studies (or Black Student Clubs, etc.) in the U.S. we include some people from Central and South America. I realize that many of ancestors of these people came from Africa originally but their history was shaped by their experiences in these other countries.

Nothing is ever simple, is it?

[Karenina]

35. Here Jumper, pull my finger!

Hey, KX... should we file this under "passing?" Tee-hee-hee!! :silly:

[noiretextatique]

37. Na Du...hell if I know!

see...pretty soon i'll be speaking fluent german :7 maybe i can "pass" then :hi:

[Karenina]

39. You're lucky I swallowed before reading that

otherwise I'd be dunning you for a new keyboard!!! ;-)

[noiretextatique]

52. me too

cause it looks like i may owe someone a new a-hole :7

[JohnKleeb]

25. yeah

lol we kinda have one at DU lol. My fellow micks lol, I call em the Irish brigade. I am only part,

[sandnsea]

34. Heritage & Empowerment

'Clubs' are created to serve one or the other of these purposes, sometimes both. There's no such thing as a 'white' heritage and 'whites' sure don't need empowerment which is the reason there doesn't need to be 'white' clubs.

[Romberry]

44. Exactly!

:)

[_Jumper_]

46. There is not Latino or Asian heritage either

How does having a Latino or Asian club at a school empower these spruious groups?

Groups such as the NAACP are legitimate. I am not denouncing organizations that seek to ensure equality. I'm denouncing social clubs designed to celebrate "race".

[noiretextatique]

64. your characterization is dishonest

hence, your conclusion is faulty...and dishonest. which clubs are designed to "celebrate race?" of course, i am not talking about culture; per you assertion, please name the clubs "designed to celebrate race?" i am think of a few...the KKK comes to mind. i eagerly await your list. thank you in advance.

[_Jumper_]

72. PROVE that there are common Asian, European, or Latino cultures

If you can do that then you can argue legitimately that Asian, Latino clubs and this Caucasian club celebrate culture. Until that is proven they are simply race-based clubs.

[Jerky_LeBoeuf]

73. I'm going to go ahead and re-post this...

As someone who has frequently taken part in rambunctious celebrations of the Irish, German and Cajun cultures (among others), I find the frequently-posited idea that white people aren't allowed to celebrate their culture to be laughable.

I hate to say this, but you're either ignorant of - or indifferent to - the historical context involved. The very concept of "race" was invented by elite Eurpeans (whites) not so long ago, right before the big colonial push into Africa, Asia, and the Americas, where it was essential to colonial success that the invaders be able to see the local populations there as inferior. Otherwise, how could you get rid of them?

Race is a social concept based on physical criteria, conceived by a dominant culture that sees itself as race-less... the norm. Therefore, you can see how so-called white people complaining about how minorities have a more clearly defined identity and culture is not only ironic, but perverse.

Lest we forget, it was less than two generations ago that black people became citizens on equal footing with whites in this country. And less than three generations prior to that, black people were, quite literally, livestock. Historically, because of disenfranchisement, oppression, persecution and even the threat of extermination, members of minority groups have had to come together to defend themselves against the real-world consequences of the ephemeral, mostly illusory presumptions of the dominant culture.

What does it mean to be Black or Latino in "a White society," as conservative Supreme Court Justice Sandra Day O'Connor recently described America? Black, Latino and Native American identity/advocacy groups formed in order to provide safety-in-numbers style protection from the long-standing and systemic discrimination against them by the dominant culture. Failing or refusing to recognize both the historical and ongoing power dynamics involved blinds you to the truth.

On an individual basis, all suffering is similar. There are individual black people who've had it easy, and there are individual white people who've had it rough. And there are groups with lots of white people in them - homosexuals, communists, the handicapped, the ugly - who have suffered greatly from unfairness. However, strictly as a racially-defined group, "white people" have about as much in common with Blacks and other minorities as jailers have in common with the prisoners in their keep.

That analogy may cut a little too close to the bone, but it is apt, nonetheless.

[_Jumper_]

85. School clubs

Since when do school clubs combat systemic discrimination? If anything they increase discrimination via separation. I see your point about groups such as the NAACP. However, school clubs and other race-based private clubs not only discriminate, they cause more discrimination from other groups.

[sandnsea]

83. Nonsense

There are Franco-American, Italian-American, Irish-American, Scottish-American and similar 'white' clubs in the U.S. They celebrate their heritage and also confront discrimination and sterotypes. Just apply it to Puerto Rican, Mexican, Vietnamese, Japanese and other ethnic groups and you ought to be able to make the connection. You also ought to be able to figure out why a Caucasian club doesn't serve any purpose.

[_Jumper_]

84. Re-read what I said

Ethnic groups have culture but there is no common Asian, Latino, or white culture. How exactly does an Asian club celebrate a non-existent heritage??????

[sandnsea]

91. How do you know?

Are you Asian or Latino? If they find commonality in their heritage, who are you to say they don't? Would you be happier if they each had a separate club representing their own country? What would be the ultimate difference? Whites still don't have a common culture that would necessitate a club.

[_Jumper_]

92. The facts are clear...

...especially in the cases of Asians. They each have distinct cultures of there own. I am surprised to see people assume that they have a common culture simply due to racial classifications.

Technically, I am Asian. Prior to 1970 the government would have classified me white. What does that tell you?

"If they find commonality in their heritage, who are you to say they don't?"

Every heritage has some things in common with every other heritage. However, there is sufficient difference between these groups to make them consider themselves distinct. Look at intermarriage. How many times do you see Koreans marry Asian Indians? How about Mexicans marrying Cubans? It is very rare. Koreans marry Koreans, Indians marry Indians, Cubans marry Cubans, and Mexicans marry Mexicans. Why is that? That is because, right now, they consider themselves distinct groups, not part of a larger "Asian" or "Latino" group.

"Would you be happier if they each had a separate club representing their own country?"

The last time I checked people of Asian and Latino descent in America were Americans too...

"What would be the ultimate difference?"

The difference between ethnic clubs and racial clubs is an immense one. Surely you can see that. Ethnic clubs celebrate "heritage"; racial clubs celebrate race. Celebrating race is racist and increases racism from other groups.

Can you see a difference between a white club and an Italian club? If so, why not apply the same logic to the difference between an Asian club and a Chinese club?


"Whites still don't have a common culture that would necessitate a club."

Show me exactly where I said I supported the white club...

"If they find commonality in their heritage, who are you to say they don't?"

How do you reconcile the last two quotes???? Using your earlier logic, if a white person found commonality in their heritage, who are you to say they don't?

If you can see that whites don't have a common culture why can't you see the fact that Latinos and Asians don't either? Whites have more in common with each other than Latinos and Asians due with each other as evidenced by interrmarriage rates between ethnicities. So why do you believe that whites have no common culture but don't see that Asians and Latinos don't either?

[rbnyc]

68. yep. (nt)

[Jerky_LeBoeuf]

63. The urge to oversimplify should be resisted in such cases.

As someone who has frequently taken part in rambunctious celebrations of the Irish, German and Cajun cultures (among others), I find the frequently-posited idea that white people aren't allowed to celebrate their culture to be laughable.

I hate to say this, but you're either ignorant of - or indifferent to - the historical context involved. The very concept of "race" was invented by elite Eurpeans (whites) not so long ago, right before the big colonial push into Africa, Asia, and the Americas, where it was essential to colonial success that the invaders be able to see the local populations there as inferior. Otherwise, how could you get rid of them?

Race is a social concept based on physical criteria, conceived by a dominant culture that sees itself as race-less... the norm. Therefore, you can see how so-called white people complaining about how minorities have a more clearly defined identity and culture is not only ironic, but perverse.

Lest we forget, it was less than two generations ago that black people became citizens on equal footing with whites in this country. And less than three generations prior to that, black people were, quite literally, livestock. Historically, because of disenfranchisement, oppression, persecution and even the threat of extermination, members of minority groups have had to come together to defend themselves against the real-world consequences of the ephemeral, mostly illusory presumptions of the dominant culture.

What does it mean to be Black or Latino in "a White society," as conservative Supreme Court Justice Sandra Day O'Connor recently described America? Black, Latino and Native American identity/advocacy groups formed in order to provide safety-in-numbers style protection from the long-standing and systemic discrimination against them by the dominant culture. Failing or refusing to recognize both the historical and ongoing power dynamics involved blinds you to the truth.

On an individual basis, all suffering is similar. There are individual black people who've had it easy, and there are individual white people who've had it rough. And there are groups with lots of white people in them - homosexuals, communists, the handicapped, the ugly - who have suffered greatly from unfairness. However, strictly as a racially-defined group, "white people" have about as much in common with Blacks and other minorities as jailers have in common with the prisoners in their keep.

That analogy may cut a little too close to the bone, but it is apt, nonetheless.

[htuttle]

74. I agree, and would add a point

In my experience, the term 'white' is only used in a discriminatory manner. The distinction of being 'white' is a discriminatory one.

More often than not, when a room full of 'white' people get together, they stop being 'white', and become Italian, Irish, French and German.

As soon as a 'non-white' person enters the room, they all become 'white' again.

[_Jumper_]

76. Really?

How did you ascertain this?

I'm not European so I have no idea what European-Americans do behind closed doors. I often wonder how much racism is manifest among groups when they are in private, segregated settings.

[Jerky_LeBoeuf]

77. What are you?

How would you define your "race"?

[htuttle]

78. Because I've seen it as a kid

I grew up in a small town in the North (Wisconsin). There wasn't the overt racism you might find down South, but in a small town, there just isn't much experience with people who are different from yourself, either (this was 30-40 years ago)

What would happen is when a bunch of people who were 'white' were together, if the subject turned to heritage or history, often people would bring up and discuss their own European backgrounds. Ages old conflicts on other continents might flare into real arguments, like it was just yesterday. Worn out, not-even-used-anymore old cultural slurs might surface from time to time...

But when a non-white person would walk in the room (unless well acquainted with them), something changed in the air. People stiffened up and got quiet. No more kidding about the Italian army. It seemed to change into 'us against them' on a barely conscious level. While most often nothing overt would happen, it was clear to me that somehow, people's perceptions of 'who was on who's team' had changed. Glances were exchanged, uncomfortable pauses were common.

This is what people talk about when they talk about the embedded racism in America. Those people I grew up with were pretty fair minded for the most part. They weren't really 'racist' in that they hated anybody. But they were xenophobic, and the culture they lived in re-inforced that xenophobia (and still does).

BTW, I think it's the experience of being on the other end of that which provides Latinos with a shared culture, no matter where in Central or South America their ancestors were from.

[_Jumper_]

80. Does that still occur often today?

?

[htuttle]

81. Not sure, but if not there, then probably elsewhere

I moved away long ago to a very liberal city (Madison), so I don't know how it goes there day to day anymore. The specific town I was talking about became somewhat more diverse (from 1 African American family to maybe a few dozen, from 4 Latino families to 40), so I'd imagine it may have changed. At least among the young.

But there are certainly places and cases where this still happens, I'm sure. 30 years wasn't really that long ago.

In any case, how old are you? If you're young, or have mostly lived in larger cities, maybe you haven't seen this sort of thing first hand. It's out there still. This embedded, ingrained xenophobia was actively fostered for a very long time, and didn't go away just because the laws changed.

[noiretextatique]

95. of course it does

when i was in grad school, a white female professor made a comment in class: she said she would lose her job because she didn't have "the right skin color." this was in 1997 or so.

i was the only person of color in the class of four students, and she looked directly at me when she made the comment. i was already tired of her...she was incompetent, ill-prepared, and a constant whiner...so i got up and walked out of the class. i was particularly annoyed because i knew she was referring to a very competent black female professor, who could never get away with the slacking and whining that this woman got away with routinely. you could say there was already some bad blood between us...i let it be known that i thought her classes were a waste of time because she was always so ill-prepared and scattered. that's the funny thing about her comment...it was total projection, considering how incompetent she was.

later, one of the students told me she felt the comment was inappropriate, and asked me why i didn't confront her. i asked her:
why didn't YOU confront her? apparently, it was my job to address this, as the resident person of color. when i did confront her later, she claimed i misunderstood what she said. i told her i didn't misunderstand at all, but perhaps her intent was not to say exactly what she said. after several conversations, she finally admitted what she said, and she apologized. this after painting herself to be the victim, and using that to get sympathy for the other students.

i felt a distinct "circle the wagons" sort of dynamic, with the other three students identifying more with the professor than with me...someone who was trying to use the incident to open a dialogue about race. this was during the time Prop. 209 (which eliminated affrimative action in the University of California system) was on the ballot, so i thought it was a great opportunity to have a broader discussion on racial attitudes about acheivement and so on.

that discussion went absolutely nowhere. i think there is still a lot of unwillingness to discuss race...interracially. it's almost like a taboo, of sorts.

[rbnyc]

67. No.

Clubs based on the premise of racial superiority are racist. Clubs based on the premise of cultural identity are not.

All-white clubs send up a red flag for many reasons, of course. For one thing, why do you need a special club to explore your cultural identity when your cultural identity dominates society?

My community center host many groups that are based on ethnicity. I don't think there's any reason to disallow different groups from getting together and talking about what they have in common culturally. That's what we do here at DU in a way, tho not based on race, obviosly.

[_Jumper_]

75. I agree that cultural groups are not racist

However, there is no such thing as Asian culture. There is no such thing as Latino culture. There is no such thing as white culture. Hence, groups based on those classifications are racist in my view.

[Chango]

69. I'm jumping in a liitle late, but

I've been having this same discsssion on another BB.

Basically, I disagree with the notion that campus affinity groups and clubs are race-based. They are organized around ethnicicity, culture, language, history and other shared interests including religion and political empowerment.

I can't see any similar purpose in a "Caucasian Club." There simply is no "there" there. The girl in the subject article states that she feels excluded because there is no group for white people. I would guess that every club on campus is open to her. Perhaps she doesn't feel comfortable in some of them where she does not share an affinity, but there must be other outlets.

I was arguing this with an idiot who actually told me that a good purpose for a Caucasian Club would be for white people to get together to share the heritage of their diversity. Huh?

[Kamika]

82. minority clubs are not racist

A club for minorities isnt racist imo, its there to preserve alittle culture.. or be with ppl that are similar to you.

A majority club imo is racist imo.. because they have no culture to "preserve" their culture IS the leading culture. They dont have to do a club just to be with their kin.. they are everywhere

[cprompt]

88. uhhh

i see absolutely no problem with the club who cares honestly. but i think it's sad how the "white" group is just lump summed into one category. most people consider irish, french, english, etc white but they are in fact from different cultures and have different views. plenty of times in history were the components that make up this lump summed "white" majority oppressed. if i wanted to start an all irish club would that be racist? yes, b/c it is exclusionary of others. do i have the right to do it? yes and i should. i believe that until everyone lets go of the race issue it never will go away and it really only encourages it. of course i don't see this ever happening b/c some people depend on it way too much to let that happen.

[blkgrl]

96. Blacks are also lumped into one category

Heck, most of us have no idea of which country our ancestors even came from.

[FDRrocks]

87. Nah!

The white majority in this country tend to be ignorant, still. Seems to me the civil rights movement was co-opted. They could've got alot more, but they jumped at what the system offered.

People I know think Iraqis are 'stupid' 'mongrels' and such. There is also inbedded rascism all over the place.

This country was founded by angle-europeans, so the minorities need to bond together, preferably as a whole rather than a segregated minority, and work towards an equilibrium.

I'll join any cause leading in that directed. Count my white ass in!

[noiretextatique]

89. could have gotten a lot more...not so sure about that

what make you think so?

[FDRrocks]

90. Well what I mean

Is they got the legal rascism placed out of the question. But now we have institutional rascism.

The civil rights movement had such a force... any minority would be at a loss to rally it again.

I think nationwide tolerance education should've been undertaken.

What I mean is... We took the oppressed from back then... gave them some shit... then shoved a whole crapload of them in prison.

Where does that leave us?

[noiretextatique]

94. agreed...more should have been accomplished

but i disagree that it could have been accomplished...because of opposition to the little that was acheived...then, and now. just look at the backlash to what was accomplished.

[Character Assassin]

97. Not swingers clubs. Quite the opposite, actually

They take all comers, pardon the pun.

[blkgrl]

98. I'm late but

I don't see anything wrong with the Caucasian club, but as others have already pointed out, it seems strange in light of the fact that this country is already dominated by Caucasians. Look at the sororities and fraternities on college campuses. The majority at my school were 100% white; there were about 3 historically black fraternities/sororities (which the less informed will jump on as being "racist").

Anyway, theres a saying: "United we stand, divided we fall." I've rarely seen a group that was not about advancing some aspect of the members' lives. And again, as others have already pointed out, people of all races are free to join these clubs.

[AP]

99. Will black people be able to join the caucasion club?

For those white people out there who think there are some black clubs out there which are just being racist, I ask, have you tried to join one?

[blkgrl]

101. I can't imagine a black person joining a club

specifically designated for caucasians.

Many whites have joined clubs like the African American Student Union, National Society of Black Engineers and have been well received. Many of the whites that join identify more with black culture, plus, as long as you pay dues you can participate in a lot of trips, functions, etc.

[AP]

107. If they can join and don't want to, then the club is just tasteless (if...

it's point is to be offensive to black people). If the club explicitly forbids blacks from joining it's racist.

I can't think of a single black organization that expressly forbids or even actively discourages whites from joining.l

[noiretextatique]

103. the club could not discriminate in its membership, i'm sure

like most clubs of this kind, it would have to be open to anyone. and your question is a good one :D

[Cocoa]

100. not all of them

only the racist ones.

If you define "race-based" to mean racist, then what you're saying is logically meaningless.

[_Jumper_]

105. Isn't racial discrimination considered racist?

?

[noiretextatique]

108. will you cut this shit out already?

you are the only one who doesn't get the difference between clubs based on cultural vs. racial characteristics. i see you failed to list any of these "race clubs" you seem to think are everywhere, though i asked you to do so previously. so how about it: please name the clubs you believe exist soley for the purpose of 'celebrating race or racial characteristics.'

[noiretextatique]

112. still waiting for the list

:bounce: in the article you posted, the young lady mentioned she was interested in more than just race...still waiting for the "race" clubs list.

[Cocoa]

109. if the club discriminates,

then yes, I'd agree the club discriminates.

But what if the club is not racist? Like the hispanic fraternity I was in, it wasn't racist and it didn't discriminate.

So there goes your sweeping generalization down the toilet.

[Nikia]

104. I thought about this a little more today

It seems that this girl goes to a rather diverse school. She is also of diverse ethnicities herself. Perhaps, she really wishes to discuss what it means to be white while the other groups discuss what it means to be black, Asian, or Latino. We should not assume that just because white culture dominates the U.S. that she is comfortable with what it means to be white. We can say that patriarchy dominates the U.S. but I think it is acceptable for groups like the boy scouts and fraternities to discuss and learn from each other what it means to be a man. At my college there was a course on the anthropology of whiteness (It was called something else but that was its general subject and I did not have a chance to take it) so there is some interest in the subject. There have been some white identity groups like the KKK that have been racist, but a white identity group wouldn't have to be if her purpose really is to explore what it means to be white and not to the exclusion of others. To some it might sound silly, but what does it mean to be of any race?

[blkgrl]

110. Who needs to explore what it means to be a certain race?

Usually these racially/ethnically named clubs are based on getting something specific done, or providing some means for networking.

Like I said before, I think its fine if they start the Caucasian club, but its almost as stupid as starting a White Male Engineer Society at Georgia Tech. The school is already over 75% male, and in the actual field of engineering, white men dominate at like 80% or higher.

[noiretextatique]

113. actually i think there's a lot of work to be done

regarding what it means to be "white" in this country. it seems that is one of the things the young lady who wants to start this club wants to do. i think it's admirable, personally.