Thermal Depolymerization is the answer to energy and waste issues.

[MindPilot]

TCP literally turns anything into oil and does it without consuming more energy than it produces. Why does it seem to be a big secret? Why is there not a big push to develop this technology further? Not only could it eliminate our dependence on foreign oil, it would make oil production local.

The Thermal Conversion Process, or TCP, mimics the earth’s natural geothermal process by using water, heat and pressure to chemically reform organic and inorganic wastes into specialty chemicals, gases, carbons and fertilizers. Even heavy metals are transformed into harmless oxides.

http://www.changingworldtech.com/

[orion9941]

1. Wow!! I have never heard of this before.

[IrateCitizen]

2. Relying on TCP for energy is like eating your own shit for nutrients...

In both instances, you will get SOME energy out of the process, but ultimately what you are doing is simply trying to extract just a bit more energy out of the waste from a process meant to extract energy.

Furthermore, the Carthridge, MO plant has been a financial boondoggle thus far. It has utterly and completely failed to come anywhere close to turning a profit, and from what I've read if we came to rely on such processes for our energy needs, it would result in oil prices somewhere around $6000 to $8000 per barrel.

TCP is a process that is dependent upon cheap oil in the first place to power the massive industrialization required to produce all of the waste that is required to run it. If you take the cheap oil out of the equation, then you vastly reduce the amount of industrial processes taking place, thereby reducing the waste stream, which in turn renders the TCP largely moot.

[Occulus]

6. It can utilize biomass as well. And landfills.

All that old trash, just sitting around.

[Kraklen]

10. Yeah, but there's not enough trash.

You'd get some oil out of it, sure. But not enough to meet demand.

[IrateCitizen]

11. Yes it can -- but you need to look at the big picture...

I currently work in landfill engineering, and I will tell you that just going in and tearing the cap off of a landfill is NOT something that is very advisable, environmentally-speaking.

Also, it takes tremendous amounts of energy (petroleum) to remove this waste and ship it to the facilities to be processed into oil. Then, there's the energy used in the thermal depolymerization process (TDP) itself. At the end, you're likely to see a net energy LOSS.

Now, what I have always been in favor of is the connection of landfill gas collection systems to existing natural gas systems. Landfills produce pure methane for several years after their capping, and right now all that's done with it in most instances is flaring it off -- what a waste. Hell, installing small power turbines to be run off of the gas could be a regular feature at landfills.

[satya]

14. "The resulting steam is recaptured to power the system".

http://www.kantor.com/useful/mittdp.pdf

[IrateCitizen]

17. It's far from a closed-loop system...

Plus, you're missing some important questions.

First, how do you raise so many turkeys/chickens/whatever so that you have the biomass to power this factory? You have to grow incredible amounts of grain -- something that can only be accomplished through industrialized, petroleum-dependent agricultural methods. Then, you have to use fuel to transport the carcasses to the plant.

The United States currently consumes in excess of 20 million barrels of oil per day. When someone figures out a method to produce energy sources on such a massive scale, then we'll talk. But as it is, all TDP represents is an illusion of perpetuating a petroleum-dependent lifestyle after all of the easily-begotten petroleum has been extracted from the ground.

Such is the material of pipe dreams.

[satya]

18. You make an excellent point re: "perpetuating a petroleum-dependent

lifestyle" and that may possibly be the biggest drawback. But TDP plants can also be used to process raw sewage (I don't think we're going to run out of that) and to clean up already existing landfills--a good way to get rid of all those "disposable" diapers. I think of it as a waste disposal system with the "benefit" of producing light crude oil (as well as sterile water).

[GumboYaYa]

20. When the Carthage plant was built the price of the turkey guts

was very low because they were not being used on animal food production b/c of fear of mad cow and similar diseases. Since that time the price of the raw matreial went up dramatically b/c they started using the turkey guts in animal food again.

Apparently they have been experimenting with different feed stocks for the TDP process and have found that waste plastic performs very well.

The cost per barrel that we are hearing right now out of the Carthage plant is around $80.00. They think they can bring that down by using more efficient and less expensive feedstock for the process. Nevertheless, that is not too far from where oil is now and certainly close to where oil is headed.

For now the plant is not letting in any outside observers to confirm what they are telling the world. All of the information that is out there is what the company has chosen to release, so there is no way to confirm any of the numbers or other information about this plant.

TDP can never supply all of the energy to fuel the world, but it is an important piece in developing a diverse, and hence stronger, energy production industry. There are lots and lots of sources for TDP in the waste we have accumulated over the years.

[Occulus]

3. Oil companies actually like this technology

because it can easily be slotted into their existing refineries. The TCP plant is, in essence, just a different kind of refinery.

I'll agree- it is a mystery why we're not building these plants in each and every state. Not only that, but the process is apparently scalable; a city could make money and eliminate waste by putting a small TCP plant on a flatbed truck, for example.

We could be dispensing gasoline at the curb, in exchange for our trash.

Why aren't we?

[Kraklen]

9. It's not a different kind of refinery.

More like a different kind of oil well. The crude that comes out of the TCP plant still needs to be processed in a typical refinery.

[amazona]

4. it ain't a secret but extremists are against it

The experimental plant I'm aware of was using waste from turkey carcasses, which I thought was a great thing, so I was surprised to discover that some folks on the far left, especially the animal rights folks, are against it.

My feeling is we can't support a large population of people on this Earth who all need protein to survive, without factory farming of poultry like turkey and chicken, and if the wastes from these plants can be converted to petroleum, all the better.

However, those who want to end factory farming feel that TCP is just another excuse to continue factory farming of poultry.

One of the reasons I'm bothered about avian flu hysteria and over-reaction to avian flu issues is because I think it's a cheap way to demonize poultry producers and production. Our future may depend on factory farms. Poultry should be treated humanely, and safeguards should be there to protect against avian flu, but I feel the U.S. D. A. does if anything a very aggressive job against fighting the spread of poultry disease.

Other people's opinions can and do vary greatly.

I guess I'd better put on the flame retardant suit now because I very much support further exploration of this technology.

[SomewhereOutThere424]

5. Of course...

I've heard somewhere in the vacinity of 27 rational options to oil consumption have been theorized, but they were threatened and bought out. The most popular example is a type of bean that's dirt cheap that can be burned like gasoline, and is environmentally friendly (won't produce smog). He created a patent to an engine that would burn this bean like fuel, cost effective, cheap engine and cheap fuel.

What happened? The government told him he's not allowed to keep the patent, bought it from him, and allowed him to create an engine for himself, but not allowed to distribute it.

The truth is, the government at any time could fix our oil problem...but as you said, if we did that, what use is oil? It's too bad the oil industry has so much influence in politics...

[HughBeaumont]

7. Good luck with having the Corporate Cabal letting you mass market this . .

Man, there are SO many means of alternative energy out there that can be developed and nurtured right now, but because Dumberica's corporate thugs and their minions demonize anything that, GOD FORBID, will solve problems that help others and potentially break their stranglehold over the lower castes, these great developments will never gain steam.

Even worse, you bring subjects like industrial hemp, TDP, Earth homes, windmills, hydrogen, bio-diesel, etc, up to the public, you're immediately written off by the SUV-driving Faux clones as a "hippie pothead" and a "lefty kook".

Yeah, and while we can only talk about this, the smarter countries will already be miles ahead of us as we care more about creationism, meaningless corpse-looking celebrities, reality shows and kidnapped princesses. Fucking idiots.

[formercia]

8. As long as there are halogenated polymers

that will produce acids and other problem byproducts, it will not have the profit margins to sustain it.
If you want to cut oil consumption, boycott fast food joints that give away plastic toys that soon become trash. For that matter, don't by plastic if you can do it with something easily recyclable or biodegradable.

WE made the problem because we consume it.

[LSK]

12. i thought it was called TDP??

Or am I thinking of something else?

[IrateCitizen]

13. No, you're right -- the actually process is thermal depolymerization...

... or, TDP.

[MadHound]

15. The trouble with this is that we're still talking about burning oil

We need to get away from oil and gas simply due to the factors of climate change and air pollution. Rather than burning something that adds net carbon to the eco-system, let us use biodiesel hybrid vehicles, which would be a net carbon subtraction from the ecosystem.

[satya]

16. Here's a good discussion on DU about this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2884070

[MercutioATC]

19. The real benefit is its waste-disposal capability.

How often do we read about tire landfills and the outrageous cost of cleaning them up? Tires are mostly oil already.

Ditto for unrecyclable plastics like diapers.

The process will break down anything except nuclear waste, so hazardous waste and contaminated soil from brownfields, while they might make much oil, would be rendered inert.

Sounds like a great idea to me.