For someone who is not a fan of the military....

[Khephra]

What would be the appeal of Clark?

I'm not anti-military, but I don't consider being a warrior as an advantage right now. I'm a Deanie because I think we need a healer...to me, a General is starting to sound worse and worse the more I think about it.

Dean's background as a politician hits upon him being a healer occasionally, but he has a political record to fall back on. Clark...well, it's all about how he fought.

I'm tired of us fighting.... I don't want someone who knows how to fight. I want someone who will heal the world.

So what is it I'm missing?

[RC]

1. What are you missing...?

From your post I'd say nothing. I wonder the same thing. We could have all that oil for a lot less if we were nice to everyone and just bought it.

[mike_c]

2. nothing, IMO....

I agree with you 100 percent. I fundamentally distrust career militarists.

[HawkerHurricane]

30. I'm sorry I'm not worthy of your trust.

I guess I should have studied medicine instead.

[mike_c]

36. oh, stop it....

...I don't know you and you're not running for President. I presume you're planning a Navy career. I appreciate that, both for your sake and for mine. But don't expect THAT to be sufficient credential for a presidential bid. And for God's sake stop taking it personally.

[HawkerHurricane]

58. Too Late

I am already career military, with 19 years of service and counting.

Automatic distrust because someone is career military?

Bash Clark all you want on issues. But the paranoia against him because of his career choice is getting thick.

[Khephra]

42. Not once did I say I was unwilling to trust anyone who was

in the military.

Search out my past statements. I'm very PRO-Military.

I'm just not sure that's what we need right now.

[goobergunch]

3. You're not missing anything IMHO (n/t)

[ixion]

4. I've been thinking the same thing...

I like the prospect of someone who can get Bush out of the WH, but I'm really tired of All War, All the Time. I understand the sad need for a military, but I don't like it. Not one bit. Too much power. I think we need to heal. I think we seriously need to apologize to our long time friends and allys for the despicable actions of the Bush cabal. I'm worried that this will become a trend, and before you know it, we're back to middle ages.

[diplomats]

6. Clark is not a war-monger

BTW, it was the chickenhawks who pushed this whole Iraq policy. They're often the worst because they haven't seen the consequences of war. I've seen no evidence that Clark will be anything other than thoughtful and deliberate when it comes to making any decision to send our troops into battle. Any of our candidates would be a hundred times better than the neocons.

[renie408]

18. WHAT?? WHAT HAVE YOU SEEN??

Can you be specific? What has he done that leads you to believe that he is not a warmonger? Insist on getting more ground troops into Kosovo?? His back and forth comments on Iraq? His commentary when he was on CNN?? His loan of troops for Waco?? WHAT? People keep saying this, but nobody has anything but their 'impressions' or their 'instincts' to fall back on for verification. What has led you to this opinion?

[tjdee]

31. Today, for example, he said force should be a last resort.

His Today show appearance made it quite clear that he is not a warmonger.

[Closer]

32. That's now that he's running for President

He will say anything because he is an opportunist. Just look at ANYthing documented before the war. There is no doubt this man is a war hawk. A DLC war hawk.

[Clark Can WIN]

34. You lie. Ignorance can be your only valid excuse.

Clark did not "loan" a single troop member for Waco. Not one. If you are going to throw right wing propeganda out there you better have some damn proof to back it up jack. Otherwise you are the one running on impressions and "instincts".

As for your other comments, if you were all for Misosevic slaughtering even more people in the most unimaginable ways possible then I guess Clark probably really rained on your parade. He was trying to keep the dying everywhere to a minimum. That is the job he was charged with, and that is what he did.

His back and forth was {as it usually is with ALL of our democratic candidates) a matter of being taken out of context and the media jumping all over it like Arnie on a girl at the gymn. His position on the war has been very clear to all who have been watching him for some time. Especially those who watched him on CNN.

[Demobrat]

5. Military service is not something that I automatically respect.

I see being in the military as being similar to being a cop. It's a job that people choose for different reasons. Some are heroes and some are thugs. The job means nothing in itself. That being the case, I have no reason to vote for Clark. It was Dean (and Kucinich) who spoke for me when everybody else was afraid, not Clark. And now that it's looking bad for Bush, he wants to jump in and take a bow? I don't like that. It's a little too opportunistic for me.

[seventhson]

22. YES!!! I think the Clark Mystique mistake is finally becoming clear

I think many of us who support Dean have been shell shocked for the last few days and been actually afraid to say hardly anything (myself excepted) against the "good" general..

I am a reluctant Dean supporter as many of you know (I STILL want Gore).

But I fell for the Clark propaganda machine and actually said I would support him for VP with Dean.

Man, was I a stupid a-hole!

Clark is probably worse than Kerry AND Bush: a TOTAL military corporate whore from my perspective. Like Bush only without the stupidity and muddleheadedness. A SMART Bush, if you will. Kinda sorta like Kerry IMHO. Therefore very DANGEROUS and tied into the same financial and corporate military cabal as Bush.

In any event, it is critical that the Dean folks discuss the "problems" with Clark the same way as we discuss the "problems" with Kerry so that we can defeat them BOTH in the primaries and make as many folks as possible aware of their deficits.

[Samaka 3ajiba]

53. Right On!!!!

Best post I've seen in a long time. The worship of everything military in this country is becoming unhealthy, almost psychopathic. Being in the military does not automatically merit respect, nor should it.

I've had it up to here with the hero worship bs. I will never vote for a general.

[slappypan]

7. internationalism and the rule of law

Clark is someone who believes in coalition building, international law, and respect for our allies. He would work to regain the respect and trust America used to command around the world before the Bush doctrine of unilateralism.

[Khephra]

12. So would Dean...he'smade that a point

I'm just not getting this love for someone that is mostly unknown.

[slappypan]

14. Dean could pull it off too

But he has no foreign policy experience. Clark could hit the ground running; he is a known quantity to our European allies.

[Khephra]

19. Dean's been in 50 plus countries

And he has international experience in dealing with Canada....not much, but that's more than Clark.

[directinfection]

47. I agree

what do we know about him? That he was a nato commander and a rhodes scholar? what does it matter if he is a "decorated soldier"? Do these things matter? I just want to know where he stands.

[seventhson]

28. Not!!!

I don't believe that for an instant

[WEagle]

8. me 2

wary of the whole warrior paradigm.
One of these days the human race is going to have to grow up.

[jonnyblitz]

9. People are taking their ques from the political punditry..

and it goes something like this : "Bush has strong support on national defense and homeland security issues(according to polls) and the only way the DEMS can beat him is to nominate somebody who can top him on those issues and the best bet would be none other than a man of the military so THANK GOD one of them happens to be a DEM who wants to be president." It's interesting the reasoning most are using in their support sounds like something I read off of the DLC website.

Also, healing and nurturing are "female"( read:weak) qualities. We need a man, a 'warrior" to beat Bush.

[JohnKleeb]

10. umm khep I agree with you whole heartly

You arent missing anything.

[Khephra]

13. Thanks John....

I'd vote for Kucinich with pride. Dean for now though. ;-)

[JohnKleeb]

23. Great

I would do the same for Kucinich but I happen to be too young :cry:
I wish more thought like you though. Look I know Kucinich doesnt have big experience as like an executive like Dean does being governor or like Kerry as a senator but he has a good amount of experience. Thats a good reason but when people use his height as a reason its bs because hes a couple of inches shorter than Dean only, his last name I actually think thats neat that he has an Ethnic name, and his looks who cares. I thank you Khep for your positive thoughts on my candiate. I and most of my Kucinich supporting comrades have felt iffy about Clark too, we were eyeballed too, its interesting that more people have been iffy on Clark as of late. jonnyblitz was telling me about when I was gone that in turned in to hell here. Thanks though, brings in a smile to my face when I see people understanding what we are all about.

[Khephra]

26. In the end...ABB

But I'll vote with pride for those who were against the Resolution.

[JohnKleeb]

27. yep

of course ABB I am a dem and honestly really far left but yeah I will support the dem in the end.

[karlschneider]

11. I'm no particular fan of the military either, even though I was in it...

but I don't automatically dismiss a 4 star general out of hand. I think Ike was a fairly good prez, even tho he was a Repub (back before they all lost their minds.)

I'm a long way from deciding which Dem I prefer...every one of them has something I like and every one has things I don't. But unless we can figure out a way to clone the Perfect Candidate (and who but us decides what -that- is) all we can do is pay attention.

In any case, it's abundantly clear that Clark has at least as good a shot of getting rid of Bunnypants as any other candidate does. That's what matters to me.

[OKNancy]

60. Karl, Which Democrat has the most chance of getting

Oklahoma's electoral votes?

Kerry - no way, he's not even campaigning here
Dean - doubtful
Kucinich - lol
Gephardt - doubtful
Lieberman - nope - Okies are religious, but Joe is the wrong religion
Edwards - perhaps - he has some powerful endorsements but vs. George Bush I really doubt it
Clark - 50/50 - Ft. Sill and Tinker and that base out in Clinton
( can't remember the name) could help, or do the guys vote by absentee in their home state? The eastern part of the state usually goes Democratic, so who could get the western half and OKC and Tulsa?

Of the people you know out by where you live...which Democrat do you think they would most likely vote for vs. George W?

[Pepperbelly]

15. I think that youy perception has not been ...

fully fleshed out.

Do you know what Clark's view on terrorism is? "The solution to terrorism is not going to be found in bullets," Clark said. "It's not going to be found in precision ordnance or targeted strikes. It's really going to be found in changing the conditions. It's going to be found in establishing a global safety net that starts with security and goes to economic development and political development and the kinds of modernization which let others enjoy the fruits of modernization that we as Americans enjoy."

http://www.temple.edu/cenfad/strategicvisions-3-1.html

Does that seem scary to you? It sounds pretty damned reasonable to me and it's what progressives have been saying since terrorism emerged in the 1970s.

[renie408]

20. Ok

That works for me. Proof. Thanks.

[bpilgrim]

49. 'global safety net that STARTS with security'

same thing sharon says :scared:

peace

[renie408]

16. Amen

Everybody keeps telling me that Clark is strong on foreign affairs. I keep replying, til I am blue in the face, "War is not the same thing a foreign relations."

[KG]

17. another well thought out post from 'the keph'

we're not worthy! :)

[Khephra]

21. I'm not worthy

My posts are the same as everyone's... monkey crap upon a wall. ;-)

[goobergunch]

24. They're a lot better than the usual GD tripe we've seen recently (n/t)

[KG]

25. heh.

guess what i'm trying to say is my feelings about clark aren't much different from yours. i don't see the appeal and the justifications for supporting him have a hint of desparation about them.

:hi:

[WEagle]

29. it's not Clark

that bothers me so much as the bandwagon that people seem so quick to jump on. The "war without end" is Bushes invention, let it end with his departure. Then let the healing begin. Clark could be a healer, but the fact that he is military is not what's important to me.

[union_maid]

33. The bandwagon is at least partly illusion

There were lots..lots and lots..of people who were waiting for him to run. There was the Draft Clark movment and there were probably even more people like me who weren't about to get all invested in someone who might decide not to run. Once it became clear he was running it was more like a dam bursting than a bandwagon picking up riders.

[TacticalPeek]

37. A pertinent observation, and it's aboriginal expression as far as I know.

:toast:

[Pastiche423]

35. If you are missing something, kef

then so am I. It makes no sense to me that a man that has spent his entire life as a tool for an oligarchical government can be painted as anti-war. War has been his life.

During the Iraq invasion, what was he doing? Analyzing war!

Our country does NOT need more of the same, backed by those that want more of the same.

And if that weren't enough, clark states he is a Democrat less than two weeks before his announcement to run for the Democratic Party. Furthermore, during his "coy" period, he, apparently, did not prepare for the highest office in the land. He STILL hasn't publically defined where he stands on the important issues.

I agree w/you. We need a healer. We need to heal our country and our relationship w/the world community. Somehow electing a militarist doesn't seem to be a step in the right correct direction.

[KG]

38. you go, girl

smooches! :*

[Pastiche423]

43. Thanks, Kirk

This is one topic I won't let go of.

I hate being had and will fight w/everything I have to prevent it. And that is exactly what I think is happening now.

Uh uh, I won't shut up.

backatcha, Babe!

[TreasonousBastard]

39. Since you asked nicely...

(and some who claim to hate war seem to own flamethrowers) I will repeat what I said before.

I haven't made any firm choices yet, and will support whoever wins the nomination. Clark is toward the top of my list, though.

Only an impression, subject to revision, but I see Clark as having a fundamental integrity and honesty about him. He positively drips self-confidence.

I'm not terribly interested in positions and issues, since all positions will be negotiated away during the usual Washington games. I am interested in attitudes and basic beliefs, though, and I see nothing about Clark that leads me to think he is all that far off from my political and social ideas.

I don't buy the idea of soldiers being unfit for office or being warmongers. True, there are mad warriors like Patton, but soldiers also know the horrors and the true costs of war. They know that war is always a crapshoot, and the result of the failure of all other means. They understand the very good possibilities of defeat and what defeat really means. And that the best way to avoid defeat is to avoid war.

Clark may or may not be in the league with Cincinnatus or Lee or Eisenhower, but those generals showed us how they could be peacemakers as well as they could be warriors. They felt every blow their troops felt, and saw little glory in war, only grim necessity. I cannot imagine what it is like to order thousands of troops into battle, but they can. And they know the awesome responsibilities of those decisions.

I don't buy the suggestion that they are isolated and have no experience with the real world. In truth, no President has had the proper "training" for the job. To get those four stars, though, one has had the responsibility of running what could be almost be considered small nations. Senior commands consist of hundreds of thousands of personnel, and large numbers of bases. Running them well is not a trivial task, and involves every skill a civilian administrator could muscle.

Politics is not unknown, either. Generals are approved by Congress, and you don't get the first star without knowing your way around Washington, much less the fourth.

Generals do not bark orders at other generals. Generals agree to agree with other generals. A senior commander is the ultimate diplomat and salesman. Lee could pretend to give Longstreet orders all day long, but had to convince him his way was the right one. Eisenhower could give Patton and Monty orders all day long, but nothing got done unless they agreed with him.

In sum, I don't believe that a military career either qualifies or disqualifies an individual. It depends entirely on the individual, and my impression of Clark at this point is that he is an estimably qualified individual.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

40. WILD. APPLAUSE.

This is one of the best posts I've read on this subject, and I feel like I've read them all. :-)

:toast:

DTH

[Khephra]

44. I don't believe that a military career either qualifies or disqualifies an

That says it all...

I'm not in the anti- or pro camps....

I'm just an anti-war voterr...that's it.

[Julien Sorel]

41. ????

I'm tired of us fighting.... I don't want someone who knows how to fight. I want someone who will heal the world.

And who would that be? Is Dr. Dean going to get into office, throw on his lab coat, grab his medical bag, and go out 'healing the world?'

I don't know who's supposed to be naive in this scenario.

[Khephra]

45. And I don't know what your criticism is?

Using your logic, then Clark is supposed to put on his General Outfit and....?

[Julien Sorel]

50. Wasn't my logic, my friend,

just my observation of the imagery inherent to your post. Such imagery is certainly appealing, but it's still just imagery.

Let's look at it differently: Jesus Christ wasn't able to 'heal the world,' but now Howard Dean is supposed to?

[Khephra]

52. Ok...point taken...

So how will Clark heal?

[Julien Sorel]

54. The problem is using the word 'heal,'

which manages to be both loaded and utterly meaningless at the same time -- an impressive feat, and one of the reasons this line of reasoning is so popular.

How is Clark going to improve the world? Hopefully, by kicking the drunken chimp out, re-establishing something approaching sane dialogue within this country, settling down the international situation as much as possible, and getting us back on the prosperous, peaceful road we were on when Bush was placed in office. That's the goal.

I hope you aren't looking for specific policy answers, because it's late, and I've had a very long day. :-)

[sfecap]

51. You got it khephra...

Clark is gonna put his uniform on and go out and kick the world's ass. Then things will be right in amurka again, and we'll all be safe and warm.

Folks like BB apparently dig that stuff. (Unles, of course, they're the ones getting shot at...

[jeter]

46. Well vote for him

I am supporting Dean as well. But why do you find it necessary to attack another Democratic candidate who's ambition is to defeat George W. Bush? It makes no sense. I still think Dean will win, and Clark will be his running mate.

Attacking each other makes no sense.

[Khephra]

48. This is an attack? Clark is currently my numer two pick.

Requote from the first post


What would be the appeal of Clark?

I'm not anti-military, but I don't consider being a warrior as an advantage right now. I'm a Deanie because I think we need a healer...to me, a General is starting to sound worse and worse the more I think about it.

Dean's background as a politician hits upon him being a healer occasionally, but he has a political record to fall back on. Clark...well, it's all about how he fought.

I'm tired of us fighting.... I don't want someone who knows how to fight. I want someone who will heal the world.

So what is it I'm missing?

[WilliamPitt]

55. Jeter's been hitting the bong again

Not that there's anything wrong with that...but judgment and perception does become impaired.

:)

[Pastiche423]

56. What have you been hitting?

[Art_from_Ark]

57. An interesting article from John Brummett

For those of you who are unfamiliar with Arkansas politics, John Brummett is a political writer who worked at one time for the now defunct Arkansas Gazette, the major liberal media voice in Arkansas in its day. Brummett was (is?) also a regular on Arkansas Week, dating from at least the mid-80s when I started watching it. My opinion of the guy is that he was a reporter who takes his job seriously; for example, he has written scathing commentary on both Clinton and Mike Huckabee, the current, Republican, governor of the state.

At any rate, in this article Brummett brings up the fact that Clark was recruited as a Democratic candidate for governor but turned the offer down, despite his assertion that he wanted to become involved in "public service". Clark was also a fence-straddler, professing no affiliation with either the Republican or Democratic party. In Brummett's words:

"How we traveled in 27 months from (Clark's) obscure Lincoln Day speech to a little room of Pulaski County Republicans to an internationally ballyhooed announcement last week of Clark's seemingly credible candidacy for the Democratic presidential nomination — well, it's enough to spin your head."

http://www.google.co.jp/search?q=cache:wRzcikZ6H1wJ:www.arkansasnews.com/280143421098684.bsp+Brummett+Clark+governor+Democrat&hl=ja&ie=UTF-8&inlang=ja

By the way, it's interesting to note that upon his return to Arkansas, Clark went to work for Stephens Group, the same group that owns the copyright to the story.

[CWebster]

59. Such an obvious truth

Expressed in such a reflective thought.