Arnold Will Win in CA in Oct; We Will Lose in Nov. '04--nightmare begins

[Starpass]

Just let me rant...I have to. I feel like I am back in the middle of that nightmare called "campaign 2000". If anyone ever doubted what our media has in store for us this time next year, do you have any doubts left!??! (the Arnold thing last night and the set up for the Dem debate this morning).

I only saw 20 min. of the CA debate but was aghast at the post-debate whore orgy that followed. I kept switching networks but apparently they all got the memo. I learned that "expectations" were so low that Arnold was the winner (geee, have we heard that before?). There was a love fest of adoration going on. Jessie Ventura was furious and I found out this a.m. that he walked off Tweety's show last night. He pointed out how MSNBC/CNN televised 10 more minutes of Arnold afterwards with nothing for the other candidates and was furious about how they were hyping this guy and this recall that he is dead set against as an assault on democracy. Yes, I could go on here for pages about the crap last night; but it came to the perfect head this a.m. when I heard them say, "surely God will now let Arnold win"....this is journalism?? But then I turn to tonight's debate.

Tweety says that Frank Luntz (Lundt--whatever) is going to do a focus group while it is happening. The first time I ever laid eyes on this REPUBLICAN pollster (how fucking obvious can you get) was in 2000. He took his "focus group" which was strongly Gore and over all the debates manipulated and pushed these people until after the last one, everyone raised their hand and said they were voting for Bush. Mission accomplished and he beamed. I saw that one week ago on a Sunday they dragged this fucker out with a group to stomp to death the Clark supporters and to have Issa on to tell us how the repukes will, of course, win CA. It was awful how he smothered these people to get the results he wanted. Well, he's going to do the same tonight in order to tell us if Gen. Clark rose to the occasion or whether he was a dismal failure who didn't connect to the people. Soooo, tell me, what the fuck do you think the overwhelming consensus tonight will be!!!? But then I turn to Iraq.....

Since that pronouncement several days ago that Bush wants "happy news" out of Iraq the whores have been obliging. I thought it was a hoot yesterday (but today topped it) when they took a Baghdad Gallup Poll and hyped about how hopeful (thanks to us) the Iraqis are about being aokay 5 years from now........the rest of that poll showed their absolute loathing of Bush and how they overwhelmingly think they are far worse off now than they were under Saddam---but it's "happy news" now, folks, that they don't mention. Then the whopper this a.m. The hotel the journalists are staying in got bombed. Reporters are reporting in a very shakey voice. So was MSNBC's Arnot. He reported the horror for like 20 seconds and then went into a "but, you know, everything is so great and wonderful and positive everywhere else in Iraq"---this after he said he just took the pulse of some friend/reporter who had no pulse. Unfuckingbelievable!!! So, I conclude: can you see the number they are going to do on us in '04---I bet that George who will be at 12% approval rating will be hyped as the savior we have to stay with and they will tell us how the lame Dems just are not up to the job........I'm so fucking disgusted this morning...whore mode is only an inch below the surface for them and waiting to blow out on command. After they deliver CA in Oct., they will deliver Bush in '04...again.

[demnan]

1. Well they did have to report something about Iraq this AM

after NBC had their hotel bombed in Bagdad. That took a few minutes.

Then they went right into "Arnold" mode.

[virtualobserver]

the whores can't save Bush.....

people already see the disconnect.

California is a worry, but if Arnold does win, it will eventually bite the GOP in the ass.

[Hawkeye-X]

62. If Arnolds win

then we can recall him immediately and reject this Gropinator.

Hawkeye-X

[liberalmuse]

2. I love your rants, Starpass...

I didn't want to read this one, because I can't even think of your subject line happening, but it well may. We have no free press. They are whores for the Republican party. I picked up a book on 'Facism'--one of those simple, thin, Time-Life type of books--in the library last night. According to this book, we are there, folks. It starts with overwhelming nationalism. The Republicans have become the brownshirts, the bullies, who roam the streets (our airwaves and newswires, in this case) trying to beat everyone else into submission. If Arnold wins, it will be proof that our Democracy is on its last leg--either because people are too stupid to vote for the REAL issues, or they just don't give a damn about America anymore--the real America, not the facist Nazi shithole that the likes of Limbaugh promote. I hope this isn't the case.

[Starpass]

4. I'm looking real hard right now at CA

If they either keep Davis or elect Bustamante, then we still have a fighting chance. But, by God, if the Dems out there let this thing fall to Arnold in the most liberal state in the country, then it's over for us. They will tout their great victory as proof that the Dems still are so pathetic that they haven't gained any ground since their big defeat in '02 and thus, not worth voting for (of course they won't mention that Arnold got in by just a fraction of the CA vote due to the format). I sincerely hope the promise of a new recall follows close on his heels and that we don't just walk away. This really is the first battle of '04---we lose it, we lose '04.

[htuttle]

11. I don't think losing CA means losing 04

I pointed this out a few weeks ago, but it bears reminding people about it. A party holding the Governor's office does not mean that the state will automatically go that way in the Presidential election.

Case in point: Tommy Thompson couldn't get Wisconsin to vote for a Republican presidential candidate the whole time he was in office (4 terms, so he was 'popular'....or at least had a good re-election campaign machine). This even though Wisconsin HAD voted Republican in the Presidential election just prior to Thompson getting elected the first time.

If Arnold gets elected in CA, I really don't think that means people in CA are ready to re-elect Bush. Bush is no Arnold Schwarzenegger (and if that is not the most pathetic political comparison of all time, I'd like to see the one that is).

[Brucey]

24. The parallels with fascism are there, you are right.

[AP]

3. Clearly the Dems have to figure out how to beat not only Republicans

but the media too.

It is so important to have candidates who don't need the media to mediate their relationships with the public, and you just can't give them the fodder...commercials reach more people than Tim Russert or Tweety, so I think you lose nothing by boycotting. Also, it's time to turn the tables on the media. People need to point out that what they're hearing and seeing on the media is total bullshit. All they have is their credibility, and it's time to start questioning credibility.

[Starpass]

AP--you know what just stuns me

WJ Poll this a.m. (that they have on their ticker) shows Bush now at 49% - and when WJ has it that low, the reality is that he's sinking more towards the 30's. NOW, one would think that these whores could see that the public is turning against Bush and the republicans and thus give the public what it wants. I literally heard one of them about a year ago say in essence that they don't so much report the news as tell the people what they want to hear. Well, people in this mood don't want to tune in and hear repuke cheerleading; but things are now so bad that they don't care and will press ahead. I hope this means Tweety finally sinks so low in the ratings that they have to get rid of him.

[AP]

10. It amazes me that big media sees the propagnda as so valuable

that they're willing to put on shows like Tweety, which get miserable ratings, when they could be airing Friends reruns and actually be making cash. That tells you something right there. There is more value in propganda than in actually showing programming which maximize ratings and advertising revenues (which would be contributing to increased tax receipts and more social wealth). Instead, we have a poorer economy, less revenue, fewer jobs, etc., just so big media can help Republicans get elected so that they can continue to make things crappier (while giving big media guaranteed monopolies and tax breaks).

[KittyWampus]

35. Selling Burgers And Bush

The reason McDonalds and BurgerKing spend many many millions on advertising isn't just marketshare and profitmaking.

To a very large extent it's to convince people that toxic waste is good for them.

That the garbage sold at their franchises is actually healthy and nutrious.

Junior was sold as a commodity. It was a hard sell campaign and people are tired of his "brand".

So the media whores will not relent on the postivie GOP/Junior spin because it's not about making money in the immediate sense...
it's about convincing people that a blantant facist regime is actually a bunch of Patriotic, Do-Gooding, Compassionate-Conservative Republicans.

[nolabels]

55. People need to figure this out, It even has nothing to do with the.......

US as a whole. But has to with a perceived thumper(big stick) and means of repudiation against others if they misbehave according to plans of multinational players and corporations. Need to get over the small picture and see the big picture. This thing, the symbol, the bulwark, it is that point or pinnacle a necessary point in any imperial capitalist system.

The US is just a pawn, a thing to be used, a means to their ends. Much of the US would fall apart if the corporate system that surrounds it in its symbioses were taken away. Frankly I don't like feeling of being a pawn or a whore, but that is what has become of these United States. Once you figure out how it works, it is much easier to figure out the next moves

What real capital sensitive system has ever existed operating at a loss? Follow the money

[ClintonTyree]

5. I hope you're wrong..................

but this scenario has crossed my mind as well. If this comes to fruition, Democracy will have been dealt it's death blow in this country and I will move somewhere that still believes in the will of the people. Wherever that may be.

[madmax]

6. A few positive points

1. Bush was not elected, Gore got over 500,000 MORE votes. Add those who voted for Nader. Where is this huge victory??

2. Throughout gwb residency we've lost jobs, engaged in 2 wars one which seems to have no clear exit strategy.

3. People were lulled during the election of 2000 to think happy days were here forever. They became compliant during the 8 years of Clinton peace and prosperity.

The sh*t is hitting the fan and people are waking up. Keep the faith.

[MuseRider]

7. Well, here you go.

I am sitting here with CNN on for the last 30 minutes and this is the first I have heard about any bombing. It has all been Arnold and the California debates and something about that horrible Ariana who dared to challenge Arnold when he talked over her (damn woman does not know her place). You are right, now they are talking about tequlia, what bombing and NOW where does one go to hear news in this country?

[lostnfound]

8. Let's charge the media abettors with TREASON

at the end of the day, that's what these TV talking heads deserve. Put the word out that they are being held accountable.

[Brucey]

26. Excellent idea... let's start putting out the word that the media

are traitors for not giving the public the real news.

[MUAD_DIB]

87. Maybe the media would be a little more cautious

on reporting the party republican line and persue the truth if they knew that the costs were going to be little more than being called traitorous.

[spooky3]

9. Well said!!

I have a hypothesis that Repubs, especially neocons, have incredible difficulty empathizing with other people. With Repugs, including those in the media, the only way that they have any sympathy for people who are out of work, have a family member harmed in Iraq, or experience any other misfortunate, is if they experience the same things themselves. ONLY THEN they perceive it as a problem that needs to be addressed. While I don't wish misfortune on anyone (other than that Bush is voted out of office but that is no misfortune to everyone else), I think they will continue to report in their clueless, biased ways because they are among the fortunates who still have good jobs, and so forth.

[ClintonTyree]

13. That is exactly what I told my daughter...............

when she asked me what the difference was between Republicans and Democrats (she was very young at the time). Among other things I stated that Republicans have no sense of empathy; they inherently lack the ability to put themselves in anyone else's shoes. They have theirs, everybody else should get theirs. I also told them that they probably didn't share toys and play well with others when they were children. That they also were in all likelyhood, not shown much love and lived in totalitarian households. My daughter is now a registered democrat.

[spooky3]

32. Way to go DumpGump!

[maveric]

37. As I have always told my sons. As I was told by my dad and grandfather

both lifelong boston dems: Democrats care about people,the human condition, and injustices in the world.

Republicans dont give a shit about anybody but themselves and the rich corporations that try to pay you as little as they can for your hard work.

My oldest boy is 21 and a registered dem. My middle son is 17 and will register dem.

[Vitruvius]

79. You just described sociopathy; sociopaths can't empathize with others --

to them, everybody else is just a piece of meat.

But they're full of empathy for themselves. They can have others put out of work, starved, bombed, invaded, or killed -- without turning a hair -- but if anything goes wrong for them, they're full of self-pity.

Hence the standard analysis of the Rethug mentality: "If you think Rethugnicans don't know the difference between right and wrong, wrong one and see what happens..."

Vitruvius

[phillybri]

12. Thanks for bringing the sunshine!

:kick:

[PROGRESSIVE1]

14. DISAGREE!!!!!!

We can win in October!!!!!

The news was not gushing all over das groper!!!

[DoYouEverWonder]

15. So is this Rove's new product for fall 2003?

This is such a distraction and it is turning into a circus, which is exactly what Rove needs right now. Plus it is another Neocon attack on our democracy, in order to discredit the 2004 elections. By then everyone will accept as normal that US elections are fixed by the media. It's okay, most people don't vote anymore anyway. That's just the way they want it.

In the meantime, the rest of the world gave an American President the cold shoulder at the UN and more Americans are dying in Iraq every day and this hardly gets 1 -2 minutes of coverage.

[Imajika]

16. Now that Bush has sunk in the polls...

...the media will believe it has been too critical of him long enough.

The story soon will be how amazing and tough Bush is for clawing and climbing his way out of the hole he is in. Comparisons will be made to Reagan being at an even lower approval rating at this point in his first term, and how Bush will follow the "gippers" lead and stick to his guns on strong defense, confronting tyranny and low taxes.

You watch. What goes up must come down. But now that Bush is down to pre-9/11 levels or below, there are bound to be some polls coming down the line that show his standing improving.

It would almost have been better if Bush's poll numbers had stayed high till closer to the election. Were that the case, and considering Bush's 200 million dollar warchest, the media might would have been tough on him and played the Democratic candidate as the favorable underdog. Now, there is every chance the media will portray Bush as the underdog which almost surely means better press coverage.

As to California. I think Davis is done. I've seen no poll recently that doesn't show a majority plan to recall him. I think Cruz could win, but my feeling is that Arnold will somehow wind up as Governor.

Imajika

[DemNoir]

17. This is nothing but conspircy nonsense!

Will you please look at some TV ratings! The simple fact is, nobody watches Hardball. It seems the audience for this show consists entirely of little, scared, sky-is-falling DU'ers.

The 2004 election is going to be about nothing but this administrations record, there is no way anyone can defend it.

[Starpass]

20. This was NOT just Hardball and it wasn't JUST last night

turn on anything today and it's Arnold all the way and it's "our reporters got bombed in Iraq" BUT there are happy faces all over the country 'cause they love Bush. It's been days of distortion on the happy news front and in full gear over Arnold. They need to hand him about 5 more points and they have him delivered. When you have that type of media saturation, you change minds.

[DemNoir]

28. There is only one desire the media has

Thats ratings. If they think that Arnolds face will get people to stop pushing the channel change button then thats what you will see.

[spooky3]

33. it was the same on CNN last night

[diplomats]

36. Happy faces all over the country?

You mean here or in Iraq? (BTW, I agree with you rant about California. We have to either defeat the recall or elect Bustamante. I still don't think Bush will win Calif. in 2004, but the recall represents everything we despise about Rove's GOP (an effort to overturn elections they don't like) so we need to make a successful stand.)

[Grins]

18. You can't lose Calif.!!!

You can't blow off this election. Governors weild enormous power with policy and appointments, and Dem Govs are in the minority. A Republican Gov. in Sacramento will control the election processes; think, Jeb Bush and Harris, Texas's Perry and re-districting, Colorado, Ohio. Think that Rove and DeLay are not drooling over a prospect of re-districting a state the size of California? determing how the ballots are counted? Hah!

[Classical_Liberal]

43. The state can't be redistricted prorepublican

It just isn't possible. It would be like saying NY could be redistricted Pro republican. Your right, we can't lose California. It is impossible.

[ButterflyBlood]

49. Actually NY is districted pro Republican it seems

because it has a Republican senate which plans Pataki approved. Since California has a solidly Democratic legislature there is no way it could happen there. Any Republican governor's hands would be tied to do anything serious in California.

[Classical_Liberal]

54. but as you know, Yankee republicans are a different breed

so it doesn't make the state probush. Indeed half the republicans in New York intend to vote against him as of now.

[ButterflyBlood]

56. yes

so of course Bush has no chance in New York. The same way Bush has no chance in California no matter who's governor, because there are simply too many straight Democratic voters, and any Republican governor wouldn't be able to mess with the system too much with the rest of the government ran by the Democrats. Besides that Clinton won the state twice with a Republican governor and I'm assuming a far more Republican government otherwise.

[ButterflyBlood]

44. California has a Democratic legislature unlike those states

there is no way any Republican governor would have the control to do such things.

[dusty64]

19. Don't disagree about the corporate

whore media, they are disgusting. I can't believe Ventura is making sense, once in awhile he is on the right page. I hate to tell you if you didn't see about a week ago msrnc is giving that prick luntz is OWN show. Yes a whole program devoted to his bullshit, can you believe it. I think that about says it all. The only saving grace may be the fact that lately only the rightwing seems to be lapping this shit up, their ratings are plunging. Disgust with our cabal will be so deep the rantings of the whores will not be enough to save them. I hope they are ALL made to pay if we can overcome the electronic "voting" machines and take our country back.

[Starpass]

23. Dusty---I know, this is stunning

they see that the people are turning against the repukes so they answer by pumping out more repuke shows!!! Why don't they have a program done by a Dem Pollster or a Dem talking head since that is the mood of the people?? Hopefully, their inability to read the nation will mean they fail.

[KoKo]

21. CNN's Blitzer said before the debate only 11% of people planned to watch!

It was apparantly an "online" poll or something. So, maybe MSNBC had more viewers........but my impression was that MSNBC was covering this as a sports event and had a frenzy among itself as to how they could push Schwartzenneger in peoples faces and get his poll numbers up.

I didn't watch the debate or the hoopla. I tuned it out......and I woke up fine this morning. Maybe very few people cared enough to watch......so it won't be as bad as you think.

[zeemike]

22. I will predict

That in tonight’s debate Clark will be the Arnold. He will be spun as “the winner” for the same reasons as Arnold was.

[Starpass]

27. Nope, Luntz is ready to spin him as the big loser who didn't meet

expectations. They have Frank all lined up with his focus group bullshit to see if Wesley can hack it. No way in hell will they say he did good, great, okay, didn't fall off the stage. He will be declared a rousing loss and "over".

[tnlefty]

57. I hope that he does 'cause IIRC when the whores did this after Dean's

appearance on MTP people pulled out their checkbooks, etc. and sent some money. If this were to happen to Clark I would consider sending him a small contribution IF his campaign would report it.

[LynneSin]

25. I think the California Republican Party does not want to win this recall

Although I sometimes get small panic attacks like you're happening.

If the California Repukes really wanted to win they'd pick one candidate out of their main 3: Arnold, McClintock or Simon and throw all their weight behind that candidate. HOWEVER, Arnold isn't really a part of the true California Party. Obviously he has the appeal to reach out to some voters in California, but Northern part of California where there is a stronghold of republicans are not impressed with Arnold, his liberal politics and his sexists attitude.

Think about this, if the repukes wanted to win, McClintock and Simon would drop out and endorse Arnold. Maybe they could get a part in his cabinet once Arnold was elected. Instead they are staying in the race, diluting the republican votes and making it quite feasible that Bustamante will win IF the recall is passed.

This is why I think they are doing it. Personally, the republicans are starting to see a giant size black eye with this whole recall process. It was initiated by a republican (Issa) and it's costing california Taxpayers another $50 million dollars they don't have. Plus, it would be easier for McClintock or Simon to win the governor hous in 2006 if Davis wins (then it's an open seat) or Bustamante is the governor (highly doubtful that the budget problem will be solved by 2006 - which will make Cruz vulnerable). However, running against a republican incumbant (Arnold) might be harder.

No, I really don't think the republicans want this mess. They'd rather have a democrat in there getting the blame for the budget problems because that'll be easier for Bush in 2004 and repukes in 2006 (when the real governor race is). If anything, McClintock and Simon are probably using this time to fill their campaign chests for when they run in 2006.

Finally, Bush has done nothing with the California race. He has not endorsed a candidate or gotten involved to ask that 2 of the candidates drop out so only 1 major republican is on the ticket (which would increase the chance of repukes winning).

I think last nights debate also showed Arnold as the sexist asshole that he is. From what I've read & heard he did nothing more than give fancy slogans and insult Ariana Huffington (who personally I can't stand but that terminator quote was just damn sexists).

[AP]

30. The budget problems are largely solved. The deficit is down to 8 billion

for next year. The Democrats have done all the hard, politically unpopular work. The Republicans would love to take over and pretend they cleaned up when, in fact, they made the mess, and then did nothing to help clean it up.

[Classical_Liberal]

42. I agree, they don't like Arnold, because he would empower

the old Rockefeller wing of the republican party.

[Brucey]

29. Good rant Starpass, I mostly agree.

Right now it looks like Arnie the Termite-Eater won the debate because he did not throw up on himself, he secured the idiot young men vote with his machoism, and the media said he won. The word will spread that Arnie is not totally brain dead, lots of young men who never voted before and never will again will go to the polls to pull the lever for him, and a few repugs will vote for him because they think McClintock can't win. So, Davis (anti-recall) will get about 47% and Arnie will get about 30%. So, in our country, that means Arnie wins!!! Go Democracy!!!

[Octafish]

31. Frank Luntz is a Turd

As you noted, Starpass, the turd's job is to manipulate opinion. That is all he is good for. Going by what you and so many DUers know, he is a failure in his primary responsibility for he has failed to convince you.

Regarding the media bias for the Little Turd from Crawford: OK, that's the environment we and Jesse the Body have to battle in. Let's do some kung-fu stuff and turn it to our advantage. Remember, EVERYONE*, but EVERYONE hates the fucking media. Go to a PTA meeting, EVERYONE hates the fucking media. Go to an NFL game, and EVERYONE hates the fucking media. Go to a political speech, and EVERYONE hates the fucking media.

Why? Because they lie. And EVERYONE knows it.

To get OUR message out — that there are good Democratic candidates — requires us to CONNECT with EVERYONE we know. Keep spreading the word. Use the telephone, fax machine, mobil phone, telegraph key and the Internet to get the message out loud and clear. Bush is a crook. That's why the liars love him so.

* Exaggeration.

[Room101]

34. Ventura walked off the show?

I love that man:)

[Emboldened Chimp]

38. Disagree about Arnie, Starpass

No matter how much the media ho's for this guy, I think it's obvious that he performed poorly last night. Everyone in my office agreed that Arnie looked like an ass. Granted, we're all anti-Arnie to begin with, but we're intellectually honest enough to give credit where it's due (case in point: we all feel that McClintock came off as the most measured and civil.)

Arianna showed that Arnold is a pig, particularly with her comment on how he treats women. Arnold offered nothing substantive; instead, he just spouted his canned platitudes. Arianna also poked holes in his crowing achievement, Prop 49, and said it was nothing more than a photo-op. Arnie's reponse was slapped down by McClintock, who called it fiscally irresponsible.

Unfortunately, Cruz came off as eith subdued or pompous. He did not look good. But Arnie didn't look that much better, so I wouldn't be making the assumption that he's got it locked. There is the strong possibility that the recall won't even get voted for. And look for Clinton to start making more rounds here. We love him here in CA, much more than the Botoxinator.

[Classical_Liberal]

39. 1)Davis isn't Gore. Arnold isn't Bush

2) the last time a republican was Governer, the Democrat won the state.

3)Bush is as popular in California as a rattle snake.


4)because of this California isn't even close to being a possibility for Bush. It would be obvious theft. It only worked in Florida because Florida was a tossup.

[ButterflyBlood]

50. exactly

comparing California to a state that's almost split 50/50 in presidential elections but has the Republicans running the entire government is beyond apples to oranges.

[Oracle]

40. I LIKE YOUR STYLE STARPASS!!!

You indeed see the obvious and in between the lines, as well as all the hidden bullshit...much better than 90% of the people here on DU who hide their heads in the sand, miss the point, won't respond if the word "fuck" is used or just want to discuss fluff! Children!!!!

[Classical_Liberal]

41. I just think she is trying to scare lefties in supporting the DLC

candidate Davis. A man not very much more liberal than Arnold. She is particularly aiming at the BBV crowd, a group for whom she otherwise displays little respect. They are fringe lefties most of the year. There is no way Bush is going to win California. No way, even with Arnold as Governer. Anyone that has been following Cal politics for the past two years should realize this. She is basically trying to turn Jessie Ventura into a Bush sibling, and making out like Davis is more like Gore than Lieberman.

[Oracle]

47. Can't say that I blame her...I'm supporting Davis with a big NO

on the recall...Arnold may sound liberal now but if elected, he'll fall right in line with whatever Rove and Bush (family friend) ask and demand...

At least it's clear Davis won't do that, he hates fucking Bush and does everything he could to annoy the fucking asshole!

[Classical_Liberal]

52. I don' t think it is clear Davis hates Bush

It certainly wasn't clear he hated the utilities given the big bailout he gave them when he could have bought them out.

If Arnold is in Rove's pocket he would be a social conservative now, and not wait till he is elected. That is just paranoia. He can't do anything with the dem legislature anyway.

If any state with a republican governer will automatically be in the Bush column how come we don't write off New York and Massachusetts?

[ButterflyBlood]

53. exactly

sheesh, some people think Arnold's going to turn California into the equivalent of Utah. He'll be practically powerless with the Dems controlling every other part of the government.

[nolabels]

72. Arnie knows when to say NO and YES

There isn't a thing I have ever read or heard of him that could ever make me believe he was ever qualified for the dog catcher job. So if were we are going to be getting back to living like the dogs. I have to say, that I have even trained my dog to sit, stay and be quiet, the yes and no parts are easy. Who supposed to work for who, anyway?



http://www.mgs2online.com/store/details/1883536065.htm

(snip)
The Danger of Brainwashing.

_Battle for the Mind_ presents a model for the physiological processes behind dramatic religious or political conversions and brainwashing based on the experiments of the Russian neuro-physiologist, I. P. Pavlov. Pavlov conducted experiments on dogs and found "equivalent" (in which the brain gives the same response to both strong and weak stimuli), "paradoxical" (in which the brain gives a response to weak stimuli but not to strong stimuli), and "ultra-paradoxical" (in which the brain gives a positive response to weak stimuli and a negative response to strong stimuli) behavior patterns present in the dogs under different conditions. From his experiments, he concluded that all dogs have a "breaking-point". Using these results, William Sargant (who worked with patients suffering from post-traumatic stress (PTSD) symptoms during the war) examines the phenomena of religious conversion and persuasion as well as brainwashing. Sargant conjectures that similiarly, all humans have a "breaking-point". The book includes discussion of war victims, religious and political conversions (especially emphasizing the techniques of Wesley in his mass conversions of people to Christianity), possession and rhythmic dance, brainwashing in ancient and modern times, as well as the eliciting of confessions. Much food for thought is presented as the author retells the stories of various individuals who have undergone drastic conversions or who have exhibited various forms of "paradoxical" behavior under the presence of sufficient stressors. The discussion of confession is particularly interesting, in that it reveals that often the interrogator becomes just as deluded as the confessor may be. In a world in which the masses are continuously bombarded by propaganda from all angles and the government, where cults are able to seize possession of individual minds and checking accounts, in which brainwashing takes place in totalitarian states, and in which the average person at any moment may be exposed to severe stressors, it is most important to study the human brain and the physiological processes behind conversions. The book is not reductionistic, the author allows the possibility of an external force or power to be the causal agent of any conversion. William Sargants study will remain a classic for those of us who worry about the effects of political and religious propaganda and modern day stressors.
(snip)

It is important to realize that one can have the same reaction to weak stimulus as well as a strong one, once trained subliminally,
WAKE UP, DAMN IT

[Oracle]

59. Well I hate the fucking DLC, dictating who Democrats should be voting for.

And Davis is a perfect fucking DLC canididate, just like Clinton, Gore, Lieberman, Kerry, etc...Fucking moderates, hate them all...but nowhere near the hate I have for the republicans..

Dennis Kucinich is who I support (and Mosley-Braun is a progressive liberal)

[Classical_Liberal]

69. Davis is not an economic liberal

Arnold is not a social conservative. You need to start looking at the actual ideology of the two candidates.

[Oracle]

86. Again you miss the point...read above.

Arnold is a REPUBLICAN. His policies, agenda and ideology will reflect that once he is in office. Bush campaigned as a moderate, said all kind things how he was going to strengthen social programs, that he was pro environment etc, etc…

Davis is a DEMOCRAT. Since taking office, Governor Davis has invested more state funding in housing programs than any other Governor in state history. These largest-ever investments in housing seek not only to help create housing, but also to stimulate the state's economy and create jobs.

Governor Davis has supported over $500 million in direct funding of housing programs, more than any other Governor in California history.

Concerned that critical medical decisions were being made by cost-cutting bookkeepers instead of care-giving doctors, Governor Davis signed into law several HMO reforms that improve health care delivery while keeping coverage affordable for families and their employers. He put the medical decision-making process back where it belongs - in the hands of patients and their doctors.

The ground-breaking HMO reforms include:

The right to an external, independent review of health care coverage decisions and experimental treatments.

The right to sue an HMO in cases of substantial harm.

The right to cancer and diabetes screenings.

The right to care for serious mental health disorders and major childhood emotional disturbances.

The right to a second medical opinion.

The right to privacy of medical records.

The right to contraceptive coverage.

The right to Hospice Care for the terminally ill.

Coverage of "routine patient costs" for all four phases of a clinical trial, for all cancers.

Access to appropriate specialists on an ongoing basis for HIV/AIDS patients.

Funding to publish an annual HMO report card with information about the quality of care that health plans provide.

Financial solvency requirements for organized health care pro

Signed the California Student Safety and Violence Prevention Act which prohibits harassment and discrimination of students in California's schools on the basis of sexual orientation.

Expanded the Fair Employment and Housing Act that prohibits discrimination in employment and housing on the basis of sexual orientation.

Prohibited exclusion from juries on the sole basis of sexual orientation.

Strengthened on-the-job rights of Californians with disabilities.

Banned housing discrimination based on income or financial status.

Strengthened workers' rights by prohibiting discrimination against employees and job applicants based on lawful

[Classical_Liberal]

89. If he acts like Bush he will be a one termer for sure

He certainly won't be a social conservative like Bush. Arianna clearly intends to do more for the state than Davis has ever done or will do.

I don't see Arnold as intolerably worse or Davis as significantly better than Arnold, you can out of fear vote for the status quo, I won't.

These more money in blah blah than any other Governer in history are dishonest when you conisider inflation. He is no Jerry Brown, and doesn't rank with the great dems in California history.

I see Arianna as better than both of them.

Here is a whole archive of her columns so you can see that she is a rose in a field of stinkweed.

http://www.votearianna.com/article.php?id=98

[Hanuman]

45. Nope!

You're leaving McClintock out of the equation as a spoiler.

And you're assuming that a republican win in CA hands the delegates over to BooshCo.

That's not going to happen in my opinion and many republicans who are against the recall agree that a gubernatorial win in CA hurts BooshCo's chances in 04.

[ButterflyBlood]

46. There is no way Bush is winning California

no one's worried about losing Massachussets, Rhode Island or Hawaii, New York, all states with Republican governors.

[Classical_Liberal]

48. Exactly

This is just an attempt to scare the progressive wing.

[ButterflyBlood]

51. but if it does happen, we can make it up!

we can win Wyoming, Oklahoma and Kansas, all states with Democratic governors, and therefore are about as winnable as California with Arnold is to Bush.

[Oracle]

58. You & Classical_Liberal are a tag team on this one...

So, I'll just say I'm as progresive and liberal as anyone on this forum...but I also see what happens when the pigs get their feet in the door...saying Arnold is no different that Davis? Let say it allows a republican Gov., Arnold to be in office in 2004...exactly what Rove wants and needs, for the 2004 elections...their foot in the door in California...Fuck I'm tired of this bullshit, of Californians voting for fucks for eight fucking years each, Reagan, Duke, and Wilson..Davis had weak, stupid fuck-ups he ran against twice...with all the republican money and Arnold asking to give him a chance to clean up Davis's messes and no strong democratic canididate (what Cruz???) Arnold will "cruz" to another four years...and preform the republican agenda and ideolgy and we all know what that is (everything for business and the corporations, fuck the people.)

Your basing everything on Bush's low poll numbers right now...there's plenty of countries out there we need to say is a major problem... N Korea, Iran Syria, etc..and terrorist in our backyards to pop up the poll numbers back to 69% before the election and a republican Gov. in CA will then be even more important to the fascist!!!

[mitchtv]

60. Beware of out of staters

trying to supress No votes and put dumbell in the statehouse . you 'mutineers" know who you are. Vote No , Vote Democrat.CL has been attacking Davis for weeks now with the fervor of(fill in the Blank), I advise you all that he /she does not have California's interest at heart,wht this nonsens that Anold will be no different. Arnold is an ignoramus , that's enough difference for me. CL is willing to let Gays wait for their rights while the pukes run the state( obviously a staight person)Just recently learned that Gov. Davis is not on part 2 of theballot. A real Liberal would not allw Any republican toget in No matter whtthey promise. Especially when the announce that they will attack Indians and Latinos.

[ButterflyBlood]

61. I'm definately not in favor of the recall or pro-Arnold

I'm just saying that whether he wins or not, Bush still has a snowball's chance in hell of winning California.

[ButterflyBlood]

64. what about Massachussets, Rhode Island and Hawaii?

how are they any different from California with Arnold in?

BTW, I don't support the recall or Arnold but Bush still isn't winning California no matter what happens. And there's no way the military could do another invasion with its current resources, funds and manpower. Besides, the people probably won't support him this time after seeing the situation in Iraq, and now being split on how it was worth it.

[Classical_Liberal]

66. Wrong, I am not basing this just on low poll numbers

The state has had a dramatic Demographic shift since the 80s. It is now more than half nonwhite, and there are fewer Defense related jobs. It isn't the same state it was in the Reagan Era. There is a reason Bush is polling bad. California is not a republican state. Only Libertarian type republicans like Arnold can win it.

I am also basing it on past history. Republicans have been governer and Democratic Presidential candidates have won the state. If there is another terrorist attack, particularly from Al Qaeda it proves Bush was wanking off in Iraq, and the state will go more Democrat than usual as will many republican states. It will be a massive defeat for the republicans.

[Oracle]

63. I agree...do you live in California???I don't want another...

Republican governor...that's very important to me...republican ideology and agenda will creep in there's no way around it...all you can say is..."no it won't" BULLSHIT! It will! Especially during budget time and the cuts made, who gets what and veto's and then just like the republican ideology dictates... hey, there's no money left here to protect this State Parks or pay for pollution clean up or this social program, or roads etc...

Fucking think about it!!!

[ButterflyBlood]

65. I wouldn't want a Republican governor either

but it doesn't mean Bush has anything resembling a chance at winning the state.

[Classical_Liberal]

68. I don't believe that Arnold will be worse in this area than Davis

. Davis cuts the budget on the poor quite alot, and isn't all that union friendly except to law an order unions like the Prison guards.

[Oracle]

70. So vote Arnold, vote republican?

[ButterflyBlood]

71. he never said to vote for Arnold

and neither have I

[mitchtv]

76. no he says vote Arianna

stealth mutiny divide and conquer

[Classical_Liberal]

82. Davis doesn't deserve loyalty imho

and Arnold isn't the beast.

[twilight]

102. make sure you vote for Ahnulld then

Did you not watch the debate? Did you fail to notice how condescending he was, especially towards Arianna Huffington?

I don't see how any woman could even consider voting for this PIG and that is a nice name for him. Men that care to vote to him - find another forum!

Get real! Vote NO on the recall!

I thought the whole 'debate' was nothing but one big idiotic joke. The all came off as idiotic FOOLS! Had the actual governor (GOV. DAVIS *remember him*?) himself had been there, the whole lot of them would have had nothing better to do but crawl away back into their slimy holes!

[mitchtv]

77. no he has never said Vote Arnold

but has been trashing Davis for weeks and saying that there would be no difference if Arnold got in.I don't think you agree do you?

[Classical_Liberal]

74. No vote for Arianna, who will be closer to your views

since you are Kucinich supporter. Don't worry about the spoiler factor since Davis and Arnold really are about the same, unlike Gore and Bush, who were very different. So you really can vote your hope and not your fear.

[mitchtv]

73. Since you are not a Californian

I wouldn't expect you to care if a puke got in, We however do, As a union man i remember Pete Wilson taking away the eight hr day -you don't . I remember getting it back under dems and Davis . I heard arnold promise to kiss business ass at all cost. He is the enemy of workers, Davis is a friend.

[Classical_Liberal]

81. Davis isn't that much of a friend of labor

and didn't lead on restoring the 8 hours day. I don't think Arnold will repeal the 8 hour day. Davis has made alot of budget cuts on the children and the poor. http://votearianna.com/quiz/ I care that a progressive finally wins one, and the two major candidates are neither progressives or conservatives.

[mitchtv]

84. davis isn't rha much a friend of labor

afl cio endorsed him , thanks but he don't need yours. Arnold is no friend of labor(and gays, andindians, and latinos) and has been trashing them as you have been trashing OUR dem governor . go win an election in your own state and stop advocating mutiny here. sorry gotta go debate's on

[Classical_Liberal]

90. I don't know why they endorsed him

They are responding to fear tactics obviously. Who will be better for Labor Arianna or Davis? Who will be better for the poor? Who will be better for education. Who will better for gays. I already won one in my own state, and I can't nor do I have any inclination to prevent Californians from reading about a better alternative to Davis.

[Oracle]

85. The recall is anti-democracy bullshit staged by Rove, the WH through Issa

(they probably reimbused Issa) the republicans started the recall immediately after the 2002 elections when the PEOPLE voted for a democrat, Davis and he won fair and square...

Now you want to trash Davis as no friend of the Unions? This is a bullshit recall through and through...if it works in CA let's keep doing it.. and just a way the republicans can break the complete democratic office holders have in the state...a payback for Gore winning the state by 11 points and Gore never spent a dime in California...sure Bush will lose in California in 2004...BUT THAT"S NOT THE FUCKING POINT!!!

To allow this recall to fail...Arnold can become gov. by as little as 20 % of the vote on election day and with only about 5% of eligiable CA voters...and then he's in for eight years! California histroy proves that...Warren, Brown, Reagan, Brown, Duke, Wilson and Davis... ALL were re-elected for an eight year term. Davis won the 2002 election by 5 1/2 points...this is just republicans coming in the back door again...

And because people like don't like Davis. There was no good reason for the recall, Davis won. Davis didn't have high crimes and misdemeanors to justify a recall, this is republican funded recall, simply because the republicans corporates have the money to do so and they will always the money.

We can't allow this.

[BackDoorMan]

88. Well put, this is what's it's really all about.

[Classical_Liberal]

91. The recall is completely constitutional and not antidemocracy at all

It really doesn't matter whether Rove cooked it up either. If Davis is unpopular according the California constitution he can be recalled. If you don't like it change the Constitution.

[Name removed]

93. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Classical_Liberal]

94. It is against the rules to accuse people of being a disrupter

I am for Arianna Huffington, and just don't think there is a big enough difference between Grey and Arnold to justify not voting for her. The fact that Arnold will have his votes siphoned by Mcclintock also creates lack of insentive.

[BackDoorMan]

96. Sorry, my apologies…So you ARE voting Yes on the recall?

[Classical_Liberal]

97. I would vote yes on it, because I want someone progressive to

take Davis's place. I believe recall is legitimate, though unrefined. However it is no worse than the way we elect people every four years with the two party system.

[mitchtv]

105. he can't vote on it

he's not Californian. Best to follow advice from others and not answer the people who trash our governor during a tough campaign

[Classical_Liberal]

95. I never justified it because republicans lost

I am not a republican. I am for Arianna. This guy just implied I was a disruptor.

[BackDoorMan]

98. Enough said, Thank you. Your voting Yes on the recall.

Well your honest about it, is about all I can say.

I could never vote Yes. It's complete and blatant republican manipulation of our consitution. Even if God himself (or she) were running against republican Arnold.

I'd still vote NO on the recall.

There has to be some principles here regarding the republican money machine, it must be rejected, and only a NO vote can help do that and send a message.

[Classical_Liberal]

99. The constitution couldn't be manipulated if it weren't written to be

If a Republican were as unpopular and Democrats tried to recall him would you still vote no?

As I see it, this is backfiring on the republicans since no Bush republican can win the state.

[Oracle]

104. I agree! There has to be some principles here"

Thanks BackDoorMan...

"There has to be some principles here regarding the republican money machine, it must be rejected, and only a NO vote can help do that and send a message."

Everyone knows Arianna has not a chance a fucking million in one chance winning...yet so many completely lost unknowledgable, uncaring people insist on voting Yes on the recall...

Voting Yes takes it out of the hands of all the people who voted for a Democrat, which Davis won fair and square. It's saying fuck all you people who voted...we republicans didn't like it and weh ave the money and the media to make it happen for republican Arnold...just look at the circus the media is putting on right now over Arnold...gushing like the whores they are.

The republicans started this recall immediately after the 2002 elections when the PEOPLE voted for a democrat, Davis and he won fair and square...

Now you want to trash Davis as no friend of the Unions? This is a bullshit recall through and through...if it works in CA let's keep doing it.. and just a way the republicans can break the complete democratic office holders have in the state...a payback for Gore winning the state by 11 points and Gore never spent a dime in California...sure Bush will lose in California in 2004...BUT THAT"S NOT THE FUCKING POINT!!!

To allow this recall to fail...Arnold can become gov. by as little as 20 % of the vote on election day and with only about 5% of eligiable CA voters...and then he's in for eight years! California histroy proves that...Warren, Brown, Reagan, Brown, Duke, Wilson and Davis... ALL were re-elected for an eight year term. Davis won the 2002 election by 5 1/2 points...this is just republicans coming in the back door again...

And because people like don't like Davis. There was no good reason for the recall, Davis won. Davis didn't have high crimes and misdemeanors to justify a recall, this is republican funded recall, simply because the republicans corporates have the money to do so and they will always the money.

We can't allow this.

I also see what happens when the pigs get their feet in the door...saying Arnold is no different that Davis? Let say it allows a republican Gov., Arnold to be in office in 2004...exactly what Rove wants and needs, for the 2004 elections...their foot in the door in California...Fuck I'm tired of this bullshit, of Californians voting for fucks for eight fucking years each, Reagan, Duke, and Wilson..Davis had weak, stupid fuck-ups he ran against twice...with all the republican money and Arnold asking to give him a chance to clean up Davis's messes and no strong democratic canididate (what Cruz???) Arnold will "cruz" to another four years...and preform the republican agenda and ideolgy and we all know what that is (everything for business and the corporations, fuck the people.)

Arnold is a REPUBLICAN. His policies, agenda and ideology will reflect that once he is in office. Bush campaigned as a moderate, said all kind things how he was going to strengthen social programs, that he was pro environment etc, etc…

Davis is a DEMOCRAT. Since taking office, Governor Davis has invested more state funding in housing programs than any other Governor in state history. These largest-ever investments in housing seek not only to help create housing, but also to stimulate the state's economy and create jobs.

Governor Davis has supported over $500 million in direct funding of housing programs, more than any other Governor in California history.

Concerned that critical medical decisions were being made by cost-cutting bookkeepers instead of care-giving doctors, Governor Davis signed into law several HMO reforms that improve health care delivery while keeping coverage affordable for families and their employers. He put the medical decision-making process back where it belongs - in the hands of patients and their doctors.

The ground-breaking HMO reforms include:

The right to an external, independent review of health care coverage decisions and experimental treatments.

The right to sue an HMO in cases of substantial harm.

The right to cancer and diabetes screenings.

The right to care for serious mental health disorders and major childhood emotional disturbances.

The right to a second medical opinion.

The right to privacy of medical records.

The right to contraceptive coverage.

The right to Hospice Care for the terminally ill.

Coverage of "routine patient costs" for all four phases of a clinical trial, for all cancers.

Access to appropriate specialists on an ongoing basis for HIV/AIDS patients.

Funding to publish an annual HMO report card with information about the quality of care that health plans provide.

Financial solvency requirements for organized health care pro

Signed the California Student Safety and Violence Prevention Act which prohibits harassment and discrimination of students in California's schools on the basis of sexual orientation.

Expanded the Fair Employment and Housing Act that prohibits discrimination in employment and housing on the basis of sexual orientation.

Prohibited exclusion from juries on the sole basis of sexual orientation.

Strengthened on-the-job rights of Californians with disabilities.

Banned housing discrimination based on income or financial status.

Strengthened workers' rights by prohibiting discrimination against employees and job applicants based on lawful

[bloom]

67. You're right - it sucks

Wouldn't it be great to have a campaign only through the newspapers and the internet?

sigh

[Langis]

75. Great Read

This is exactly what I have been thinking the last 2 months. I am really getting worried about '04. I just don't get it, how can so many people in the country be so blind?

[kayleybeth]

78. When the pundits compare shrub's ratings to Clinton and Reagan

they neglect to mention that at this point in their presidencies, Clinton and Reagan both were trending UPWARD in approval ratings. Look at Bush's numbers in comparison:

[Democat]

83. Without 9/11 Bush would have passed Nixon on the way down

Americans can't wait to see how Bush tries to exploit 9/11 going into the 2004 election.

[0rganism]

103. Interesting graph, W's is too nonlinear to be compared with the others

Most of the presidents' approvals look wavy and sinusoidal with a bit of line noise, whereas W's is clearly sawtooth.

W's approval has been entirely based on hangtime from two disconnecting spikes, the bizarre terrorist attacks and the fraudulent Iraq invasion. Now he's come back down to the ground, and needs another war or attack or other oddball fascist fuel to give him that extra "oomph" for 2004. Next summer is going to be veeeery dangerous indeed, as the time would be ripe for an isolated incident to give him that much-ballyhood popularity during the election.

I wouldn't be surprised if the RNCC has just that kind of event planned for their invasion of NYC a year from now.

[Jerky_LeBoeuf]

80. Sitting through the media turd-blizzard truly is a trial.

Made all the more frustrating by the fact that the propaganda is so damn slick, not many people recognize it as such.

[depakid]

92. I love all you DU'ers who watch what passes for "news" and "analysis"

Seriously, I can't watch them. I quit that addiction after the first Gore debate, but because of all the brave souls at DU and SC, I can still find out what they are saying without losing my sanity. Props for that.

I watched the debate on tape delay on CSPAN and came away with a completely different take. Arnold was not only uninformed and ill prepared, the man sounded dumber than I thought he ever could. He made several inconsistent and at least one outright false statement. California's in deep shit right now, and voters either on the right or left would have to be postively self destructive to turn the governorship over to Arnold in the midst of a fiscal crisis. Unfortunately, I've spent a good portion of my life in California, so I never underestimate the shallowness of voters there, and I've watched with dismay as they've been roundly manipulated many times before. Part and parcel to a decades of a an underfunded secondary education system, which fails to teach civics, IMHO.

Without recourse to the whores, I found McClintock to be the clear winner, and if I were a Republican with half a brain (is that a contradiction in terms?) that's who I'd vote for hands down, spin notwithstanding. Camejo also came across well on the left, quite capably reflecting many of my own opinions and policy choices.

Bustamonte tread water, but I don't think he lost many voters who actualy saw this. If anything, he and Davis may have gained support- againg, whores, "focus groups" and "polls" notwithstanding. This debate really was a sorry spectacle and if anything, it underscored what an even sorrier spectacle the whole recall campaign has been from the get go.

If Californians have any vanity, much less good sense left at all, they'll vote no on the recall. If not, well, at least California can take over Oregon's place as the laughingstock of the nation.

[Bucky]

101. I resent that!

at least California can take over Oregon's place as the laughingstock of the nation.

As a Texan, I resent your implication that our Repub shenanigans aren't the stupidest.

[mlawson]

100. Arnold will win. Media whores just warming up for prez debates.

Arnold probably polls low; people are embarassed to say they will vote for him. But they will. He may win in a landslide.

And the media SLUT reaction last night was just a warmup for Oct 2004. No matter WHAT Dumbo does in the debate(s), he will be raved over. Our only hope is to have a candidate so GOOD at debate, that the media's lies won't wash!!