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Postman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-25-03 12:54 PM
Original message
Question for those DUers knowledgible in matters of Gold and Fiat Money..
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A63823-2003Sep25?language=printer

Gold Hits 7-Year High, Looks to $400

Gold rose to its highest level in more than seven years on Thursday as fund buyers piled into the metal, inspired by a surprise decision from OPEC on Wednesday to cut oil output and a weaker dollar, which raised bullion's safe-haven appeal.

.......Our currency is "fiat money", money that has no intrinsic value. It is just created as needs arise. With this Iraq rebuilding debacle taking place (i.e. the $87 Billion +) busting the federal budget for years, do you see the rise in Gold as an indicator that we are about to enter an era of inflation or hyper-inflation?

My concern is that when Gold rises in value, the dollar, although not directly tied to Gold, loses value and thus more dollars are pumped into the economy creating inflation....Am I off on this?
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Andy_Stephenson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-25-03 12:55 PM
Response to Original message
1. Yes we are entering an era of
Hyperinflation. Buy gold now!
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Postman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-25-03 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Could you please explain how an era of hyper-inflation is upon us?...
surely I can't be right on target with this. I admit I'm a few cards short of a full deck concerning economics. Or are you just pulling my leg?...
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ALoeppert Donating Member (72 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-25-03 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #1
8. BTW... if you're buying gold...
my advice is to physically take possession of it... don't buy a piece of "virtual gold" that's stored somewhere on your behalf. That's how the banking industry got started... at least according to
this guy.

So for those buying gold because you think the shit is going to hit the fan, so to speak, with a collapse of the dollar, having a certificate to some gold doesn't solve your problem.

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Andy_Stephenson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-25-03 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. AMEN!
buy gold coins now. The Dollar is DONE! Stick a fork in it
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newyawker99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-25-03 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #8
21. Hi ALoeppert!!
Welcome to DU!! :toast:
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ALoeppert Donating Member (72 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-25-03 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #21
30. Thanks...
I've been around a while though... well, I guess I took a long vacation. Though, you having 1000+ posts I would be a newbie in your eyes... :)


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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-25-03 01:01 PM
Response to Original message
2. Gold has no value - except a low value for industry - and an emotional val
that is much higher that drives the gold price.

It is a "safe" investment against inflation because you are betting that the emotional value will remain steady and increase as inflation occurs.

The history is that this does NOT happen.

However the gold bugs that would sell you gold at 800 a decade ago now sell you gold at 400 based on its returning to 800.

Land does hold its value - but even here there are bubbles. You will most likely pay about $500 to a financial person (that is what I charge) but you really need some advice before your life savings into gold.
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WhoCountsTheVotes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-25-03 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. I agree, the use of gold as a currency is over
for the most part. Industrially, gold has a value, but not nearly as much as it's traditional role as money. I do think that since Bush has allowed the dollar to devalue significantly, gold will rise, but the retail gold market is so full of scam artists that it's doubtful it's a safe investment.

However, I expect commodities in general to become much more expensive in terms of dollars. There won't be a general price inflations because of the lack of pricing power right now, but certain commodity prices will skyrocket.
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Andy_Stephenson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-25-03 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #2
11. umm
I have several ounces at a buy in of $297.00 todays price $380.00. The return I have gotten back on that is far better than the legal racket called the stock market.

Thanks but no thanks. I trust gold far more than pie in the sky paper. Unless I need to wipe my ass...then I will certainly uses paper.
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ALoeppert Donating Member (72 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-25-03 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #2
31. True...
gold is simply a metal... and it's worth is largely linked to the worth that humans put on it... but as mentioned in other posts, it can't be created with the ease of printing money (or simply creating an balance in a computer)...

And given gold's history as a global currency, IF the US dollar were to collapse, don't you think that people would place a huge "emotional value" on/in it?

Of course, I don't believe people ought to dump their life savings into gold. Putting all your eggs in one basket is a bad idea for any investment strategy, but I don't think it's a bad idea to have a bit laying around.

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WhoCountsTheVotes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-25-03 01:06 PM
Response to Original message
5. www.gata.org
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CosmicVortex10 Donating Member (55 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-25-03 06:57 PM
Response to Reply #5
36. Great info!
While I dont own gold, Ive been thinking of getting into it myself. I think its pretty obvious that the money makers have been screwing us. No person should be trusted to control money, its simply too valuable and power always corrupts.

I really liked one of the articles there that made this comment

"These monetary firestorms are challenging Keynesian monetary theory of floating currencies and competitive devaluations. Keynes notion that deficit spending produces economic growth and wealth is crumbling with each Argentina."

Keynesian theory is so much crap that it could only take an intellectual to produce evasion of that fact on such a scale.

Power to the people -- not to the money makers!
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junker Donating Member (403 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-25-03 01:17 PM
Response to Original message
6. MZM & all money supplies from the PRIVATE BANK - called
the federal reserve is up hugely, on the order of 48% y2y. This suggests that the FED (a private bank in control of our politicians) has decided that hyperinflation (a'la germany in 1923) is better than deflation (which is actually occuring....for instance over 9 TRILLION dollars was 'deflated' out of the stock market in the last 3 years)...

so the expectation in EU (see Credit Lyonais analyst recent statments) that gold will go OVER 3620 dollars to the ounce in next 3 years due to twin deficits of the US of A

AND THE CENTRAL BANK GOLD PRICE CAPPING CONSPRIACY.....

see
gata.org.

ANd note, that the guys at Halfpasthuman.com who sweep the net for subtle changes in language about stuff say that the 'regular human' interest in gold as represented by the number and type of internet conversations about it is up several thousand per cent.

These fellows work about 4 miles from where I live. They told me that gold conversations (like this one) are appearing all over the net, including places like gardening and sewing oriented boards. Also the number of reports of local coin shops being sold out of gold/silver is up a couple of hundred percent in last 3 weeks.....

so go rush right on out and buy gold. But do not take paper-gold which is a contract or debt instrument against gold....go to your local dude and buy actual gold coins....I have no money, but I buy poor mans gold which is silver bullion coins....which are now hovering slightly below 6 bucks an ounce. In my memory, silver has been well over 35 bucks an ounce and has a mean price over time of over 23 $/oz. so no where to go but up and really damn rapidly once the general sheeple recognize that gold will be the ONLY storehouse of value to survive this nascent dollar crash (*through the manipulation by the federal reserve bank which is neither a bank nor in any way a federal institution....in fact MOST shares of the Fed are owned by the Queen of England and Chuck of england and the CARLYLE group which is papa bushies crimefamily face)....


do it now, you have only days....

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caffeine76 Donating Member (10 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-25-03 01:25 PM
Response to Original message
7. inflation? what do you think alan greenspan has been trying to do?
Yes yes Bush's budget is giagantic - leading to a
"crowding out" effect in interest rates, still they
are currently low, by historical standards.  I think the Fed
would love to see some inflation (outside healthcare
insurance, and energy - which have been inflating for years)
Greenspan has specifically said that he is still worried about
deflation.  This is nothing more than an attempt to jawbone
the bond market into contuing to purchase our treasuries, and
keep rates low. While growing the money supply.  Don't look at
interest rates for future inflation - look at the growth in M1
and M2.  In the past year the money supply has grown over 20%.
The G7 meeting this past weekend was a win lose situation for
us. The Bush administration's "strong dollar" poicy
means that the exchange rate value is meaningless.  Strong
dollar (for Snow and Bush) means that we want to keep our
currency "the" currency of choice, or keep faith in
the dollar high - as a medium of exchange.  This is good for
our manufactures who export, however, it just makes china even
cheaper for Japan and Europe (since the chinese yuan is linked
to our dollar).  As for gold, there are soooooo many hedges
coming off in the past 2 years that have supported the rise. 
Greenspan loaned all of our bullion to the major wall st.
banks (since gold was under $300/oz. the interest rate on
borrowing gold was under 1%) the banks then sold that gold -
went short, took the proceeds and in turn bought U.S.
Treasuries.  Conviently keeping gold and interest rates low. 
This all started in 95 - under Rubin, and Greenspan.  So, gold
is a good investment.  You could buy bullion, or gold stocks
on the NYSE that are NOT hedged.  
As for hyperinflation?  If it is on its way - its gonna take a
long time(at least 5 years) to get here.
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newyawker99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-25-03 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #7
22. Hi caffeine76!!
Welcome to DU!! :toast:
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Nederland Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-25-03 01:36 PM
Response to Original message
9. A big clue...
...is gained by noticing an unusual correlation between those that warn of the dangers of fiat money and those the are pushing gold as an investment. Its just like how the whole Y2K hype was pushed by people selling generators and survivalist equipment. IMHO, the anti-fiat money crowd is simply trying to make a buck off people's fear.
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Andy_Stephenson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-25-03 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. I started investing in gold
In Aug 2000. I'm very happy I did.

Gold is real money Fiat money is hot air and promises. IMHO the Dollar is toast and no one can stop it. Think 87 billion on top of an already massive debt and deficit. Hyperinflation is the only remedy. Like I said I'll bet on gold.
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Nederland Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-25-03 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. Gold is a metal
Nothing more. Sure, buying it makes sense if you think its price will go up in the future--just like any other commodity.

As for hyperinflation being the only remedy to the deficit, history proves you wrong. The deficit has been far far higher than it is now, and yet the US has never suffered from hyperinflation.
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Andy_Stephenson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-25-03 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. Do you deny Greenspan is trying
to reinflate right now? What are the consequences of his actions going to be? I would posit inflation like we have never seen.
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Nederland Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-25-03 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. Yes
If you are correct, we could expect to see inflation creep up above 7% or 8% and see Greenspan leave interest rates alone. I cannot imagine that happening, because he has never acted that way before.

Greenspan is like a robot trying to balance two things: GDP growth and inflation. When he sees the GDP contracting, he will lower interest rates (expand the money supply) in order to spur more growth. When he sees inflation rising, he will raise interest rates (contract the money supply, or more accurately, slow its rate of growth) to slow things down. I've never seen him act in a way that contradicted this.
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Andy_Stephenson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-25-03 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. Gold and Economic Freedom
Edited on Thu Sep-25-03 05:10 PM by Skinner
by Alan Greenspan

An almost hysterical antagonism toward the gold standard is one issue which unites statists of all persuasions. They seem to sense - perhaps more clearly and subtly than many consistent defenders of laissez-faire - that gold and economic freedom are inseparable, that the gold standard is an instrument of laissez-faire and that each implies and requires the other.

In order to understand the source of their antagonism, it is necessary first to understand the specific role of gold in a free society.

Money is the common denominator of all economic transactions. It is that commodity which serves as a medium of exchange, is universally acceptable to all participants in an exchange economy as payment for their goods or services, and can, therefore, be used as a standard of market value and as a store of value, i.e., as a means of saving.

The existence of such a commodity is a precondition of a division of labor economy. If men did not have some commodity of objective value which was generally acceptable as money, they would have to resort to primitive barter or be forced to live on self-sufficient farms and forgo the inestimable advantages of specialization. If men had no means to store value, i.e., to save, neither long-range planning nor exchange would be possible.

EDITED BY ADMIN: COPYRIGHT
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Nederland Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-25-03 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #20
25. Alan is Right
I couldn't have said it better myself.

Did you catch these parts?

But the opposition to the gold standard in any form-from a growing number of welfare-state advocates-was prompted by a much subtler insight: the realization that the gold standard is incompatible with chronic deficit spending (the hallmark of the welfare state). Stripped of its academic jargon, the welfare state is nothing more than a mechanism by which governments confiscate the wealth of the productive members of a society to support a wide variety of welfare schemes. A substantial part of the confiscation is effected by taxation. But the welfare statists were quick to recognize that if they wished to retain political power, the amount of taxation had to be limited and they had to resort to programs of massive deficit spending, i.e., they had to borrow money, by issuing government bonds, to finance welfare expenditures on a large scale.

or this?

This is the shabby secret of the welfare statists' tirades against gold. Deficit spending is simply a scheme for the confiscation of wealth. Gold stands in the way of this insidious process. It stands as a protector of property rights. If one grasps this, one has no difficulty in understanding the statists' antagonism toward the gold standard.



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leftyandproud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-25-03 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. except fiat really is a problem..
and gold/silver are the only REAL MONEY alternatives. Bush/Greenspan can print a billion dollars at practically no cost. Just a single ounce of gold on the other hand takes hours to remove from literally tons of rock. They aren't making any more gold, but we can always plant more trees. Little squares of paper with ink printed on them are never as secure as precious metals. If you want to protect what you have, you should always have a little cash in something NOT controlled by others...in something that is rare and holds real value.
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Nederland Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-25-03 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. Learn a bit please
Edited on Thu Sep-25-03 02:20 PM by Nederland
Bush/Greenspan can print a billion dollars at practically no cost.

This statement is so ignorant it defies a response. Printing money at will has a huge cost, every freshmen economics students knows this.
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Andy_Stephenson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-25-03 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #16
27. And we pay the cost.
The gold I have is under my control...and is not subject to the whim of a banker.
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Nederland Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-25-03 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. Read Post #24 (nt)
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Throckmorton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-25-03 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. No, not subject to the whim of a Banker,
Edited on Thu Sep-25-03 04:32 PM by Throckmorton
but how about the whims of politicians?

http://www.the-privateer.com/1933-gold-confiscation.html

The idea that your gold is "only" yours is a fantasy, don't think history will not repeat itself.

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JanMichael Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-25-03 02:19 PM
Response to Original message
15. Screw gold! Buy RICE & AMMO!!!
Can't go wrong with those two:-)
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Andy_Stephenson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-25-03 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #15
19. add Beans
and it is the perfect trio.
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robcon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-25-03 03:41 PM
Response to Original message
23. It's amusing to see the confusion on DU
Some argue that we're in for hyperinflation... some say we're experiencing deflation. To put it plainly - there is no sign of either disastrous phenomenon. The increasing and obscene deficit certainly argues for increased inflation some time soon, but hyperinflation? Absurd.
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Nederland Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-25-03 03:47 PM
Response to Original message
24. A Brief History of Money
Edited on Thu Sep-25-03 04:38 PM by Nederland
The key to understanding all money and fiat money in particular is to understand that a nation's currency is ultimately nothing more than a commodity. Like any commodity, its value fluctuates depending upon supply and demand. If the supply of a currency exceeds the demand, the value of that currency will fall. If the supply of a currency falls short of demand, the value of that currency will rise. This is true of any currency, whether it be paper, gold, silver, or sea shells. Money is a commodity, and its value shifts like one.

The argument that money should be backed by something physical like gold or silver relies upon the attraction of those metal's scarcity. When a government has a currency backed by gold, you can't simply print more money. There is only so much gold in the world, therefore there is a limit to how much money you can print. However, this is precisely the problem with having a currency back by metals: you cannot expand or contract the money supply as needed.

Now why would you want to be able to expand or contract the money supply? The answer is best given with an example. Let's say you have a town with 1000 people in it that has a fixed money supply consisting of 100,000 dollars. There is no way of expanding or contracting this number--its 100,000 regardless of what happens to the town. Now let's suppose that over time this town grows to a population of 2000. Nothing unusual there, right? Populations grow all the time, especially when times are good. But consider what happens to this town with its fixed money supply. Since the money supply is limited to 100,000 dollars, the number of dollars per person has gone from 100 per person to 50 per person, making money much more scarce than it was. What happens when a commodity is scarce? Its value goes up. An apple that used to cost $2, now costs $1 because dollars are so scarce you now need fewer of them to buy something. As we all know, when the prices of goods are falling, we have deflation.

So having a fixed money supply isn't all its cracked up to be. If an economy grows and the quantity of money available doesn't keep pace, you'll get deflation. This is precisely what happened in the US in the late 1900's. The population was growing, the economy was producing more and more goods, but the gold backed money supply was relatively fixed in size. The natural result: massive deflation. Now who benefits most from deflation? Answer: the rich. Poor people tend to have there wealth tied up in the things they need, their house, farm equipment, animals, etc. Rich people (at the time) tended to hold lots of cash. When the value of goods is dropping and the value of money is increasing, its easy to see that the people who have little cash are going to get screwed.

So the deflationary periods of the late 1900's led to the push for a fiat currency. Economists of the day realized that the only way to create a stable money supply with consistent currency values was to create a system the allowed you to expand and contract the money supply as economic conditions warranted. The risk was huge. You were basically trusting government to correctly look at the economy and determine if the money supply needed to be expanded or contracted, and more importantly trusting government to resist the temptation of printing more money whenever it needed it. The solution was to create the Federal Reserve, a quasi-public entity entrusted with monitoring economic conditions and adjusting the size of the money supply as economic conditions warranted.

How successful has the Federal Reserve been? Its record is mixed. Like any institution that is run by people, it is subject to the flaws of people. During the Great Depression, the people that ran the Federal Reserve royally screwed up in thinking that a contraction in the money supply was what the economy needed. In retrospect, the notion is almost laughable. Everybody today knows that if you are in a depression you should loosen the money supply in an effort to spur economic growth, but back then people weren't so sure. Many argued that the last thing you want to do with all those banks failing was to make it easier for them to loan out more money and potentially create more failures. They were wrong, and the people of the US paid the price. More recently, the Federal Reserve has done an excellent job. The value of the US dollar has stayed remarkable consistent the last 15 years, with inflation staying in a tight range of 1% - 6%. From a historical perspective, this is an amazing feat and a testimony to increased understanding of how economies work and the accuracy of economic data we now collect on a routine basis.

To return to the actual subject of this thread, a return to the gold standard would be a disaster. In the last 100 years, growth in the money supply has outstripped growth in the gold supply by several orders of magnitude. It is naive to think that a world which has seen growth rates of 5% to 7% could be well served by a gold supply who size grows at a mere 1%. If the US and the rest of the world had remained on the gold standard, we would have never seen the rise of the middle class and the rise in home ownership that we saw following WW2. Money would simply have been too scarce, and its holders a select few. I think that is something most Democrats can hardily agree is a bad idea.
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ALoeppert Donating Member (72 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-25-03 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #24
33. I'm curious what you think of this analysis
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Nederland Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-25-03 06:13 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. Thanks
This is the part that I thought was most insightful.

We have a system which either has to grow or inflate to prevent the economy collapsing. So if we are ever to build a sustainable world, a world in which it is possible for rich countries, like Ireland, like Canada, like the United States, to say we’ve grown enough, we’re already consuming more than our fair share of our Earth’s resources, we must stop so that resources can be freed up for countries where people genuinely have too little, we don’t have to change the money system so that growth isn’t required to keep money in circulation. This is the thing that creates an urgency for money reform, both at the national and international level.

I would say however that this critique is not a critique of fiat money per se. There is nothing wrong with fiat money, it is simply that we have chosen to implement a fiat money system that is growing too fast and now depends on that growth to survive.

Thanks for the post.
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-25-03 04:00 PM
Response to Original message
26. By giving away the Soc. Security "trust fund" as a tax cut...
we now have three choices:

1.) Repeal the tax cut and then some before the Boomers retire

2.) Live with hyper-inflation

3.) Institute a pseudo-democracy and end Social Security

Three guesses what the current plan is.
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althecat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-25-03 05:23 PM
Response to Original message
32. Postman... that's only a small part of the story...
"Our currency is "fiat money", money that has no intrinsic value."

Yip correct. Especially since the US Gov is now running close to a 30% fiscal deficit and the defence contractors responsible for managing government expenditure have somehow lost $3.3 trillion on the side.

Treas Sec. John Snow's response to this is to say that the rest of the world cannot not invest in the US Dollar because they are already so exposed to it. There may be some truth to this... but it may also be a moot point. If there is a run on the dollar then hyper inflation as imports get more expensive would closely follow. As it stands the US Dollar has been falling fast in the last few days.

Finally, and this is the kicker, the true significance of the Gold Price movements comes in their impact on derivatives. Search for GATA on google for the full story.. the condensed version is that JP Morgan et al are deeply embedded inside a derivatives timebomb that is increasingly likely to go off the higher the gold price goes.

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Andy_Stephenson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-25-03 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #32
35. "derivatives timebomb...
that is increasingly likely to go off the higher the gold price."

And when that happens, watch the price of gold soar! Buy now while it is cheap and available.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-25-03 07:36 PM
Response to Original message
37. Gold is safe
People moved to gold during the depression, during the 70's inflation and now. Gold is simply a safe investment in times of economic uncertainty. Whether there's inflation or deflation, the next few years aren't looking so great. It seems in the 70's, in part, people were buying to avoid future price increases which actually contributed to higher prices. Today, I think people are avoiding buying because they're nervous about the economy. Prices haven't fallen like they might have because of the high price of gas and oil and transportation. But if gas prices drop allowing prices to reflect the deflation, we might start seeing a downward spiral.

Or we could just hum along in a 'jobless recovery' until we get Bush out of office.
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