Fortunate Son (Pataki Son seeks three year military deferral)

[Inland]

http://www.nypress.com/18/26/pagetwo/newshole4.cfm


With supreme guts and righteousness, President Bush went into Iraq," Gov. Pataki told the Republican National Convention last August. The place erupted with applause. It was all very stirring.



Almost one year later, Pataki's son Teddy is, with supreme guts and righteousness, seeking a three-year law school deferment from the Marines, which last week commissioned the recent Yale grad as a second lieutenant.



The governor, who himself received a medical deferment during the Vietnam War because of poor eyesight, has said he hopes his son is granted the deferment. Of course he does. No doubt all the parents of New York's nearly 100 war dead also wish their children could have gotten deferments. But they couldn't. They got killed instead.



During the run-up to the invasion, Pataki was one of Bush's biggest war whores in the Northeast, taking his pro-war stump speech on the road to warn New Yorkers about the imminent threat posed by Saddam Hussein. Since the governor's support for the war has yet to waver, it is more than a little annoying to hear him publicly wishing for his son's deferral.

[friesianrider]

1. Typical chickenhawk.

But I'll bet he'll "actually do shit" while at Law School, and leave the dying part to poor blacks, white kids, and minorities.

[Cassandra]

2. We need Marine lawyers...

to prosecute the grunts who think they have to follow illegal orders.:sarcasm:

[atreides1]

5. Why???

So far they've failed make a case against one Marine who shot and killed a wounded Iraqi in Fallujah, and a Marine lieutenant who shot two unarmed Iraqis because they failed to listen to his instructions.

It was decided that both acted in self defense.

What the Marines need are not more lawyers, besides Pataki probably
won't be procsecuting anyone, but more rifle platoon leaders, and besides the primary MOS of all Marines is infantry rifleman.

And look at it this way if young Ted decides to run for office later in his life, and he probably will, being a rifle platoon leader will
look better then being a lawyer.

[Bluebear]

3. Oh that is rich. n/t

[graywarrior]

4. Ugh. I'm sick of the elite bragging about their cowardly offspring.

Send the Bush twins, the Pataki's, the Cheney's-all of em.

[sweetheart]

6. Pataki's a fucking shit

He stinks like one,
he talks like one,
he walks like one
and he leaves shit on
everything he touches.

No wonder the child
of a shit would be
a shit as well
all covered in
republican maneure
of cowardice and self-seeking
injustice.

[WI_DEM]

7. why should he get a deferment?

there is no draft. He must have enlisted or something. So why isn't he prepared to follow up on his committment? could it be that they finally decided that it's just a little too dangerous over there?

[Dudley_DUright]

8. College ROTC

[Merope215]

20. There's no ROTC at Yale

But the College Republicans are trying to bring it back.

http://161.58.180.45/article.asp?AID=27897

Al Jiwa is a maniac. The Robert Burt mentioned in that article is one of the greatest people I know. It's an interesting read.

[The Sad Little Pony]

9. Actually...

That's not a deferral or a postponment.
What Pataki Jr. has done, is joined the USMC JAG Corps.

You are commissioned upon graduation from undergrad, then you go to law school.
Upon completion of law school, you attend The Basic School in Quantico.
Then the JAG school in Newport.
The time in service gained while in school, allows you to later enter the Fleet as a Captain.

Every Marine Lawyer goes through the same process.
This is ordinary.

It is neither cowardly, or avoidance.

[sweetheart]

10. So then he'll be on TV

I Saw JAG and they even have terrorist attacks on that show.

So he'll be in-character then,
helping out the underdog in a
massive military of "us" the
star trek federation.

And then when the klingons attack
we can execute them with impunity
and hte JAGoff lawyers will avoid
getting shot because they found a
way to avoid serving like real men.

I get it.

[The Sad Little Pony]

11. Like "real men"?

You've got to be kidding.
JAG lawyers serve, making MUCH less than they would in the civilian world.

Honestly, turn off the TV. It's rotting your head.

I served 19 years in the infantry. (completing another predeployment training, now).
I'll be in Iraq in two weeks.
I don't think he's not a "real man" for serving in the JAG Corps, anymore than I would belittle the service of someone in supply or admin. (except in jest, every now and then:-) )

You must be a real Rambo, to belittle the service of others as you do.
No doubt you've served serveral tours as an infantryman?
No?

[sweetheart]

15. indeed,

I was having a go at the republicans and their
heroism for serving the corps.

We need to trash the repukes who don't serve
whilst trashing a generation of democrats who've
served like yourself. And by that measure,
i am but a writer.

I do not agree with violence, or the military
in any way. ANY way. I could never be enslaved
by their views... i would quit and walk out.
I'm glad you're happy with your career in the infantry.
I've been happy with mine in civilian work, earning
the tax money to pay for the military exortion
protection racket.

Am i supposed to feel diminished for not serving
in the armed forces of an abusive nation. There is
no honour in it as far as i'm concerned. That you
feel honour and pride in it is good. That democrats
do generally is good as well. What the armed forces
have been up to these past 2 decades is rather
deplorable and i've not a pedastal for public
servants who think they're doing us a big public
favour by taking hard earned taxes and using them
to murder people in foreign lands for the whims
of american conglomerates.

No doubt i've served as an american taxpaying
motherfucker paying in blood for all the military
wankers out there raping young girls on okinawa.
Military career is a job on the public dole
with free training, free medical and a retirement
pension. It is not something holy, unless you're
running for public office, as part of the great
political dynasty families that claim some
unnatural right to the presidency and the
republican leadership.... and then, to serve
in any way but as a humble person putting ones
life on the frontline, is disenginuous.

I serve without violence, and you sir, and i are
equal in every way... the honour of service is
the same as the honour of being a civilian. Both
of us eat shit.

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

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[sweetheart]

21. Feelings and a first draft

the old "have you served" bullshit really gets up my crawl, you're
right, and it really pissese me off... not from you, and i deliberately
want to say, not you personally... its a feeling that i've had rammed
up my ass my whole life.

I was, in high school in the process of filling out the applications to
the air force academy, when i met some military people who talked that
way, like they were holy for their great service. It rubbed me the
wrong way, obviously, and i'm capturing the feeling, to see if it was
at all true.

I felt like i should be enslved to their views, to accept this mighty
service as some sort of unpaid gift for which i was obligated, like i
needed some protector and was obliged to pay them some respect. And i
reject slavery in all forms these days, including that sort of
expectation. Now it is more conscious. Back then, it was from the
gut. I was just repuulsed without reason, without ideals.

I think its wrong to join the service. In that sense, i reserve the
right to piss on it. It is designed as an organizational brainwashing
activity, where people are "broken" and indoctrinated to buy in to the
big ponzi scheme... and some of the worst and most disgusting things
that i've paid for with my fucking taxes, come from the military these
past 50 years where they've done nothing noble... really nothing.

That is it, isn't it. THe pretense is that its noble, to go kill
civilians in viet name, panama, beriut and iraq... because it is the
fact of being there, is it not... then choose not to be there. Don't
join the service. Don't be the one standing there with the gun when
the little kid gets killed by random fire, and you won't be the one
who killed the little kid.

There is free will, and the persons in the military are not absolved
of responsibility for what they've participated in... war crimes in so
many countries it really is despicable... and dammit, i'm really
angry at the military and its stupid stupid abuse of its position in
defending the nations borders... women raped in okinawa, RAPED by
our tax dollars, raped in germany, like we send our rapists and others
oveseas to rape the locals and then declare as a global imperial
nation that we've the right to do so, with the extraterritoriality of
our laws....

So yes, its bile, for having a bunch of self-gratifying military
back slappers kissing each others backs for generations putting
their war-culutre at the forefront of a civilian society. Freedom
sin't free and all that crap.

So how should i feel about it? Am i allowed to explore these
feelings without being "evil" or "doctor evil"? The american military
budget and its military persons are all allowing it to transpire,
and yes indeed, it angers me that such a tremendous waste of
civilian goodwill has transpired, and that people have taken the
easy route out, and not stuck it out as a civilian showing that our
society is about civilians, not war and invasions.... but sadly it is
not to be true, so i'm sad about that as well.

I have the same feelings of rejection about the bible and the people
who seek to ram jesus christ up my ass as though repetition will make
me somehow more willing to accept that religion. No religion, no
presumption about your career or mine. I'm angry that our country
has been terribly abused, and surely much of that anger is misplaced
on good persons who've tried to do their best under difficult
circumstances.

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

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[sweetheart]

26. Its a bigot to dislike the military

I like that one sided logic, you must have learned it in the military.
/irony

Frankly, i hardly ever write about "those who serve" on DU. Other longer
term members on DU can attest to this. I really spend no time at all
in military threads, or discussing it in any way. My only comments are
repeatedly that we should cut the military budget by 50% at LEAST.
and end the war on drugs as well. NO wars... none.

So, yes my bigotry is to cut the military down to size and keep it
humble answering to civilian command like it is supposed to.

The bigotry has come about with "have you served" and that ruse of
social pretense. You are the one who started with that crap here
in our chat, so spare me the bigot line. You've sought out to make
this personal, about "me" being a bigot. Ad hominem is the way
republicans argue... and the way they teach the military to argue as
well. Shoot reporters in iraq, so they can't talk. Its the ultimate
version of an ad hominem argument.

I don't meet any people who've fed the poor or cared for the homeless
prancing around the sort of social egotism we get from the military
persons. Those people, who are performing much more noble jobs
if we are to deem some jobs morally noble, act humbly and do not
ask or pretend "have you served."... just because they teach it in
the military does not make it noble, or american.

I really enjoy our discussion, as it explores areas of social
pretense and the implied timocracy in our society, that military
persons have some divine right, like that general clark was more
qualified to be a civilian president because he's commanded lots of
people who say "yes sir". Here in civilian life, we don't kiss ass
like that, and we ahve lots of bile about being oppressed by a
militarist oligarchy.

Military people take money from the public, they are the ultimate
welfare queens, for all the talk of service... real men indeed, is
a meme that the republicans proved is totally debunkable by the
way they took out john kerry this past election. There is no
nobility in anything military, even winning medals for valour or
purple hearts. If you like the low pay, then cool, but don't
expect gratitude, or people to respond to have-you-served-bigotry
with anything but a return volley.

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

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[sweetheart]

37. Thanks for the perspective

I am advocating bigotry, or institutional dislike of persons who sign
up to an organization that has committed war crimes on 7 continents
over the past decades. So, it is a bigot to broad brush an
organization that has done that. Why?

By that standard, it is bigotry to rant about the klu klux klan.
By that standard, all rapists might not be bad, because some of them
did not actually "do" the rape, some drove, and brought the duct tape,
some helped hold her down. It is bigotry to condemn rapists, because
it is making assumptions.

I wrote originally here, broad brushing a meme that we
might dabble with in propagandizing the republicans when
they repeatedly advocate war and then opt out with their
own flesh and blood. The meme must be brought to bear on those
who do this, or we miss and opportunity to put the republicans
in their place.

You've instead started a sprout to make this personal, about
"did you serve", and i've given it a go, in exploring the meme,
a collage of feelings like stained glass, that can be used by
other propaganda writers to develop frames for media writing.

Here on DU, i am a writer's writer. Editors and journalists come to
this website to explore ideas that they could NEVER writer in a
newspaper... like the rants in this thread... they are raw and
unpopular to speak in public, but are nuggets of feeling and ideas
that are "free radicals" for radical writers. Disagreeing with the
military is a political no-go, expecially in this age of militarism
and military ass kissing... so i explore the unthinkable because
I AM NOT A SLAVE. The military has become a bad organization and
to be involved in it is shameful. It is not an issue of one offs
or individual mistakes. Honourable samurai do not ride with
an army that does war crimes.

Regarding "YOU", i've hardly looked at your "name", i've not looked
at your profile, and i haven't the foggiest, nor do i want to. I'm
responding to your comments, not your person. Theres always the
possibility that many readers will find the writing poorly written.
It is the risk of writing and putting feelings on paper.

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

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[sweetheart]

43. offended are we

You accept a premise that the military is honourable. I don't
accept that. Each individual has a choice not to be there.

When you get old, you will no longer be in the military, and it will
no longer be personal for you, and you will not need to get in such
a huff.

I'm composing a meme, not an individual indictment. Individuals can pick it to use in indicting the military for gross negligence in protecting
a constitution they are sworn to protect. Rather than protect it, they
have stood by whilst it has been gutted, all the while collecting a
pay cheque.

That is what service has become, institutional deriliction where no
single individual is responsible. Then when we indict the
institution, we are "bigots" for indictng the indivdiauls, who are not responsible
by the very outset. No president is responsible, no defense
secreteary is responsible, no commanders are responsible, and not
a single line soldier is responsible eaither.... totall plausible
deniability and war crimes on 6 continents. Crimes happen, nobody
is responsible, and all accusers are bigots because they did not
select out the baddies... but the war crimes are institutional.

The american military will committ war crimes next year, and the
year after that. It is what a good many are trained to do, under
the auspices of defending the nation. It is deplorable, and for all
who think its honouralbe, thanks for defending the constitution,
its been so useful having so useless a defense.

The democrats and the republicans have sold out america, along with
the miltiary industrial complex, and it is not the least bit bigotry
to point this out. It is an accusation of impropriety and
deriliction of duty that needs to be levied at a good portion of the
miltiary command that has let this tragic state of affairs come to
fruition to start with. The same goes for the democrats, the republicans
and the civilians that we let this state of affairs come about to
start with.

So the straw man is a success. You are angry because you "KNOW"
that there is some truth to the accusation, that you ARE responsible
for the choices you made, that the military has not defended the
country for decades, and has instead been used for corporate
thuggery... the gap between 20 years of propaganda and the truth:
that it really has been mostly war crimes and that is "shameful".

Granted, those crimes were by a very few, and most of the rest were
just complicit gas chamber attendents, who, like most of the nazi
army took orders with their paycheques and thought it was honourable.

I know you're offended, and i'm not sorry. It is your
choice to be attached to your professional identity on an
anonymous chat board. It does not make me an elitist. IT
makes me a propagandist. Rove does bigotry to destroy democrats.
I do it to destroy evil institutions. The military propaganists
themselves have fucked up, and its no wonder recruitment is at a
terrible low these days.

People who are not slaves, are deciding not to vote "militarism"
with their own blood feet. They might not say "shameful" but the
results are the same. For all those jedi knights out there,
darth vader and his death star have shot up the constitution you're
defending so badly, that the presumption that a military force
defends it is laughable.

[The Sad Little Pony]

48. If you think...

That you are able to "destroy evil institutions" with your writing, you really need to work on it.

The combination of poor spelling and pretentious spelling ("cheque", "honour", etc.) is a hell of a cocktail.

Not one to raise consciousness.
Not one to rally folks to a cause.

It is off-putting, because it IS elitist.
I interupted your lame pseudo poetry, because it was filled with lies, innuendo and innacuracies.

I should have interupted you, because you are a dream for the likes of Rove.
You are every bad cliche that THEY claim we are, though we are not.
If we are YOU, then THEY are right.
It's almost as though you were created by Rove.

[The Sad Little Pony]

19. double post

delete

[Inland]

18. Pataki praises Bush for sending men to war, not law school.

If this war is such a great thing that Pataki can't praise Bush enough for it, then there IS no higher calling, no greater opportunity, then to be a part of it.

Here's his chance. Why not take it? Because the war that's good enough for other people's kids to fight and die in would be a waste of a good potential JAG and later Wall Street lawyer and future governor.

[sadiesworld]

23. You're being a bit disingenuous.

"Every marine lawyer..." does not go through such a process. JAG recruited at the law school I attended when I was in my third year. Obviously, Pataki's son could have waited to join but presumably he is receiving some benefit for joining early.

[The Sad Little Pony]

24. Actually, no.

EVERY Marine JAG goes through the exact same process.

If what he's doing is somehow less than courageous, then every Marine JAG is a coward.

I've know more than a few who'd take exception at such characterizations.

[The Sad Little Pony]

30. Those who make the decision to join...

... while in Law School are the exception.

When I went through TBS, every one of them had signed up in undergrad.
All of them.

How is "waiting to join" a deferrment, anyway?
The Marine Corps prefers JAGs to join early and go through OCS while in undergrad (it's pretty tough).
It also allows them to enter the fleet with more rank.
They can then hold their own in certain settings.

[PsN2Wind]

32. But "We are at war"

So the offspring of a famous supporter of the war should defer his school and go to Iraq as a platoon leader. Show 'em what you're made of. Instead he wants to be the most rearward of the REMFs. I'd like to see you explain his heroism to my college buddy, Recon Marine, DI, and two tours in Vietnam as a door gunner.

[The Sad Little Pony]

41. How is that possible?

How can a Marine be:

"Recon Marine, DI, and two tours in Vietnam as a door gunner"?

Recon is an infantry billet.
"Door gunner" is an air wing billet.

[PsN2Wind]

50. Well, if you got great big balls

You can ask him. I guess Vietnam was before your time. A helluva guys ended up doing duty out of their MOS.

[leesa]

39. Except we are at war and they have an enlistment crisis. It is not normal

[The Sad Little Pony]

49. The Marine Corps has no crisis.

They missed numbers one month, but they made them up in later months.
On track for the year.

The odd thing...


...is that RE-enlistments are way up IN Iraq.

Who'd a thunk?

[indepat]

12. Now isn't that special: if a draft comes, it's as good as money in the

bank that all little rich/well-politically-connected Teddy-types will get deferments until it's over over there, and that might be some time.

[The Sad Little Pony]

13. The truth is better.

It's not a deferrment.

[malletgirl02]

14. How educational delay works

I'm in Army ROTC so this is how it works for the army. In order to get educational delay one has to apply for it before commissioning, usually sometime during junior year along with choosing branches. Also getting educational delay is really difficult to get. however this is how it works in the army, I'm not sure how it works in the Marines. I think it is probably something similar. In the Army one is not guarantee the branch they want. May question is when exactly did Pataki's son decide he wanted to go JAG?

[Pepperbelly]

25. good info ... i was enlisted and when in college, i stayed away from rotc.

After going through 4 years in Uncle Sam's Navy, the last thing I was going to do was sign up for anything military.

But that's just me.

:D

[Kathy in Cambridge]

27. When your father is a prominent politician

strings can be pulled so you don't have to see combat. It's called Vietnam redux. The children of the rich and powerful will get light duty, if they serve at all.

[malletgirl02]

38. Another question

Did he do ROTC or some other program, I'm asking because it was said earlier in the thread that Yale doesn't have ROTC.educational delay would be different if it was another program.

Thanks

[The Sad Little Pony]

42. To become JAG...

He would have to go through the PLC or OCC course in Quantico.

Marines do not have ROTC, with the exception of Naval ROTC scholarship.
He was not ROTC.

After Undergrad, he's commissioned, goes to Law School, then upon graduation, to TBS.

[Pepperbelly]

45. so this guy signed up?

Is that the circumstance?

I don't get it. Why would he sign up now for JAG if he isn't a lawyer? I mean ... shit ... there's many a slip twixt the cup and the lip. People flunk out. People lose interest. People drop out. This whole dealie just seems ... odd.

[The Sad Little Pony]

47. It's not odd.

It's the way it goes.

Most JAGs sign up when they are in undergrad, to help pay for LAW school.
They then usually owe more time, not unlike a flight contract.

It is in no way a deferment.

[im10ashus]

46. You made several good points up thread.

You are to be commended. I thank you for having served and I don't disparage you one bit. I served in the Army 4 years. My nephew is currently serving his 4th and final year and has been to Iraq. It's horrible that someone would attack you for doing what you signed on to do; protect your country, regardless of how you feel politically.

I for one don't understand the deferment Pataki's son is getting, I just don't think he should get preferential treatment, if indeed he is. From what I discerned from your posts, it was proper procedure, and I can't really say I blame him for not wanting to go.

For all we know, he too may share our political leanings, and just doesn't flaunt his affiliation. One can hope anyway.

Chicken hawks who have nothing else to offer this war than their "support for Bush" are what ticks me off. It's not in line with what real men would do. They, in a word, are pussies. So thank you for having given so much of your life to your military career. I hope it serves you well. Carry on.

[lachattefolle]

16. Gawd, and here I was almost feeling a tinge of respect for the Pataki

family. Pardon me while I :puke:

[PsN2Wind]

28. If we're attacked again

he can file a brief. Chickenhawk must be a genetic thing.

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

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[Inland]

34. I was being fair.

I understand that doctors and lawyers in the military are serving.

But my dad hasn't run around saying that the combat in Iraq is the greatest thing since sliced bread, calling Bush courageous and righteous for ordering OTHER people's kids to fight. Whereas Bush sees law as an active hindrance to his fight. Why wouldn't Pataki at least stay neutral about his son's decision to not participate in the war Pataki called for and praises Bush for? Why root for his ability to avoid combat?

Apparently, courageous and righteous ends at home. Courageous and righteous is a political stance taken from a safe distance, not the actual fighting on the ground.

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

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[Inland]

36. I didn't bash the son.

But I do note that he doesn't exactly take his dad to task for being gung ho to send someone else.

[UrbScotty]

33. Nominated.

Lil' Pataki is chicken!

[tyedyeto]

44. How can you get a deferment when there is no draft

at present? I thought deferments were synonymous with a daft.

If you have signed up..........DO THE DUTY

[Inland]

51. ROTC volunteer: but apparently some volunteer for less than others

The reservists who are being called back and enlisted men whose terms are being extended with a stop loss find that their volunteering puts their ass in Uncle Sam's sling forever.

But Pataki's son gets another choice, for one, and his dad wants him to take it, for two.

[B Calm]

52. You would think after fighting the enemy in Iraq, law school would

still be there waiting on him.. Or is this marine a coward?

[Inland]

53. Will the war still be waiting for him after law school? Not for HIM...

there will always be other priorities for him.