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jillan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 11:50 PM
Original message
The shape of things to come... a warning from the Vatican
Check out the last 4 paragraphs:nopity:

Vatican Criticizes Catholics on Communion

By NICOLE WINFIELD, Associated Press Writer Thu Jul 7, 1:54 PM ET

VATICAN CITY - The
Vatican singled out divorcees who remarry and Catholic politicians who support abortion on Thursday in criticizing the faithful who continue to receive Holy Communion while in a state of mortal sin.
ADVERTISEMENT

The lament came in a new document on the Eucharist that details abuses of the sacrament and the need for better instruction to ensure it remains sacred. The 85-page text is the working draft of a final document that will be developed during the global synod, or meeting, of bishops Oct. 2-23 in Rome.

The paper covers a range of issues related to the Eucharist: It suggests, for example, that Latin be used during international liturgical gatherings so all priests involved can understand the proceedings, and it suggests that parishes consider using more Gregorian chants to prevent more "profane" types of music from being played.

It calls for priests not to be "showmen" who draw attention to themselves and says lay people can have an important but "minimal" presence in Masses. It says the tabernacle — which holds the bread and wine held by Catholics to be the body and blood of Christ — should have a prominent place in the church and not be shunted off to a corner.

Most significantly, though, the document laments the fact that fewer and fewer Catholics are going to Mass on Sundays — in some countries, only 5 percent of the faithful attend — and that fewer Catholics are going to confession.

As a result, many Catholics are living in a state of mortal sin when they receive Communion, it said. The Church defines sin as a free and deliberate violation of God's law; a mortal sin is one that involves a "grave violation of God's law" and "deliberate consent." Catholics can repent their sins by confessing them to a priest.

"The faithful frequently receive Holy Communion without even thinking that they might be in a state of mortal sin," the document said. "As a result, the receiving of Holy Communion by those who are divorced and civilly remarried is a common occurrence in various countries."

It noted that confession isn't always available to the faithful because of the acute shortage of priests in parts of the globe, but said the sacrament nevertheless was necessary. It cited statistics showing there was one priest for every 1,797 Catholics in 1978 compared to one priest for every 2,677 Catholics in 2003.

The document, "The Eucharist: source and summit of the life and mission of the church," was written starting in 2004 based on responses received by bishops from around the world reporting on their own experiences. It stresses that it is not a theological treatise on the Eucharist and in fact it restates church teaching on most key issues.

In one section, for example, the document criticized the faithful who support Catholic politicians who themselves back abortion and other policies contrary to church teaching.

"Some receive Communion while denying the teachings of the church or publicly supporting immoral choices in life, such as abortion, without thinking that they are committing an act of grave personal dishonesty and causing scandal," it said.

"Some Catholics do not understand why it might be a sin to support a political candidate who is openly in favor of abortion or other serious acts against life, justice and peace."

The issue was highlighted during the U.S. presidential election campaign after St. Louis Archbishop Raymond Burke said he would deny the Eucharist to Democratic presidential nominee
John Kerry, a Catholic who supports abortion rights.


http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050707/ap_on_re_eu/vatican_communion_1




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ReadTomPaine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 11:51 PM
Response to Original message
1. This needs to be trimmed to 4 paragraphs to fit DU's copyright rules...
Expect a mod warning shortly!
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jillan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 12:06 AM
Response to Reply #1
5. oops - still kinda new around here!
The mods can trim it if necessary.

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pk_du Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 11:58 PM
Response to Original message
2. The last 4 paras say it all......BUT
I'm okay with that stance if they ( all Catholic churches) agree to lose IRS exemption.
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Swede Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 12:01 AM
Response to Original message
3. Render unto ceasar what is ceasars, render unto god what is god's
They must've missed this passage.
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Maple Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 12:06 AM
Response to Original message
4. And does the RC church
also forbid communion to anyone who supports divorce, capital punishment and war?
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NMMNG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 12:09 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. Not that I've heard of
Typical Cafeteria plan approach to religious adherance. :eyes:
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Maple Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 12:13 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. I doubt they count
the children in the family either, to see if there are 18 or 20 of them.

Buffet Catholicism. :D
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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 12:40 AM
Response to Reply #9
17. "Buffet Catholicism"
LOL !
:rofl:
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NMMNG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 12:58 AM
Response to Reply #9
19. The more the merrier
Makes more drones to carry on the precepts of the faith.
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jillan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 12:15 AM
Response to Reply #4
10. and to not support medical research to help those born with health probs?
Here's where the dems need to frame -
divorce
capital punishment
killing innocent civilians in a war
stopping medical advances
no health care
ruining the earth that God created

We need to be ready.
Maybe I need to post this at the DNC site, so hopefully Dean will see it.
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ComerPerro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #4
42. That's what bothers me most about it
Its just such blatant hypocrisy!
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mpendragon Donating Member (210 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 12:09 AM
Response to Original message
7. Stop hiding and protecting pedophiles . . .
and I'll start giving a damn about what the Vatican thinks is right. If they keep the "don't vote for <candidate>" stuff up then the US might need to revisit their tax exempt status.
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mahina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 12:11 AM
Response to Original message
8. Ya, just like in Italy...what is the birthrate among Italians?
Italy is being depopulated because of all those good Catholics who know when to listen and when to tell the Church to STICK IT IN THEIR EAR.
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DanCa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 12:18 AM
Response to Original message
11. Guilliani and Arnold and Others
They threw me out along time ago for not picketing a planned parenthood. Now will these embryo lovers do the same for the pro choice republicans?
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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 12:19 AM
Response to Original message
12. Brilliant !!!
This is their plan to boost attendance ?

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA !!!

Yep, keep it up guys, punishing your followers and reminding them that they are going to hell is a great way to get them to come back for more every Sunday.

They are incapable of evolving and I predict that this tired old dinosaur will just go belly up that much sooner.
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DanCa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 12:28 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. self delete
Edited on Fri Jul-08-05 12:29 AM by DanCa
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DanCa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 12:24 AM
Response to Original message
13.  Just thinking about a few things.
Edited on Fri Jul-08-05 12:25 AM by DanCa

What ever happened to the Catholic Church that was against the death penality, war, guns, poverty, and being stewards of the earth. Seems lately all the embryo lovers care about is what happens inside a person's reproductive system.
Hmmm if Jesus began as an embryo and an embryo is a fertilized egg doesnt that blow the whole virgin birth thing out of the water?
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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 12:39 AM
Response to Reply #13
16. Uh oh.
I'm starting to see why they kicked you out !
Right on !
:evilgrin:
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DanCa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 01:21 AM
Response to Reply #16
21. LOL
Thats okay the romans put Jesus on the Crucifix. They just scared me emotionally.
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yowzayowzayowza Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 01:59 AM
Response to Reply #13
26. Yea, I'm too am..
Edited on Fri Jul-08-05 02:00 AM by yowzayowzayowza
really, REALLY weary of all the pontificating crotch nannies.
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shrike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 10:32 AM
Response to Reply #13
33. They're very much against the death penalty
There's a group here in my state working -- fruitlessly, it seems -- to abolish the death penalty. It's ecumenical, good deal of involvement by local diocese, and its president is a Catholic priest in my town.
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napi21 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 12:35 AM
Response to Original message
15. One statement in that article struck me a bit strange.
"Some Catholics do not understand why it might be a sin to support a political candidate who is openly in favor of abortion or other serious acts against life, justice and peace."


Now, I understand the Church disapporves of abortion. I disapprove of it too. I just don't believe in the gov't telling it's citizens that they have to abide by the teachings of my Church.

So, since Kerry said HE didn't personally approve of abortion, doesn't that mean Catholics could vote for him?
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high density Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 12:50 AM
Response to Original message
18. What's with abortion?
Edited on Fri Jul-08-05 12:52 AM by high density
Why can't the topic of discussion be the war, poverty, or even capital punishment? I was brought up Catholic, but the past election cycle (among other things) really soured me on the Church so much that I don't think I'll ever go back.
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expatriate Donating Member (853 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 12:58 AM
Response to Original message
20. Right back to good old pre-Vatican II, eh?
Wonder when the Inquisition will get new thumbscrews and racks and start looking for "sinners"?

When they start doing something about covering up for the pedophiles in their midst and begin to condemn politicians who support war and genocide, I'll pay some attention to what they have to say.
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NAO Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 01:24 AM
Response to Original message
22. Christianity is the longest running atrocity in human history...
...From the persecution of gnostics and other sects in the first few centuries, through the Inquisition, the Witch Hunts, right up to today's pedophile priests, Christianity has inflicted more suffering on mankind than Hitler, Stalin, Genghis Kahn, Pol Pot and all the "really bad guys" combined. It has been a 2,000 year nightmare of violence, intolerance, torture, murder, destruction and child molestation.

***

The Religious Right is really OUT OF CONTROL and is exerting a greater and greater influence on our society. They are flexing their muscles in the political process, the economy and our entire culture.

Let us remember that the first time Christianity spread rapidly and gained control of the government (in Rome from 200 - 500 AD) it resulted in the utter collapse of Western Civilization and ushered in 1,000 years of darkness, superstition, ignorance and suffering.

Finally, after a millennium of Darkness, mankind began to see the Dawn of The Age of Reason and The Enlightenment. Humanity recovered some dignity, science was freed from the chains of religious superstition and real progress began.

The Constitution of the United States of America was one of the crowning achievements of The Enlightenment, being a document for the Establishment of a government that did NOT MAKE ONE SINGLE REFERENCE TO "GOD". With the establishment of the United States, government as well as science was freed from the domination of religious superstition.

Now, every day in the news there is some story about how the religionists are exerting their influence. Radical Clerics like James Dobson and Jerry Falwell get air time on network news. Religionists are organizing and boycotting businesses that do not adhere to their version of personal morality.

The specter of religious superstition is once again casting a frightening shadow over our world. The ghosts and demons of the Dark Ages, once believed to be banished forever by Reason, are again haunting our culture. Christianity destroyed civilization once before - it could happen again.

***
The Freethought Zone
Science and Reason Over Religion and Superstition

http://freethought.freeservers.com /

Freedom from Religion Foundation
http://www.ffrf.org /

Secular Humanism
http://www.secularhumanism.org /

Secular Web
http://www.infidels.org/index.shtml

Thomas Paine's The Age of Reason - Online
http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/thomas_paine/age_of_reason/index.shtml

Complete Works of Robert Ingersoll - Online
http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/robert_ingersoll/index.shtml

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jonnyblitz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 10:28 AM
Response to Reply #22
29. I completely agree.
pure fucking evil masquarading as good. it's most cherished symbol, a man nailed to a cross, should be a clue..you would think. :eyes:
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friesianrider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 01:24 AM
Response to Original message
23. So does that mean Catholics must not vote for pro-Iraq war politicians?
"Some Catholics do not understand why it might be a sin to support a political candidate who is openly in favor of abortion or other serious acts against life, justice and peace."

Other serious acts against life, justice and peace, huh?
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DFWdem Donating Member (423 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 10:30 AM
Response to Reply #23
30. No
Pope John paul spoke out unequivocally against the war in Iraq.
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friesianrider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #30
40. But most Catholics vote according to abortion...
Not the war. If they voted according to the church's teachings, they couldn't vote for many Dems or Republicans - they'd all have to vote anti-abortion, anti-gay, anti-war third-party.
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Tux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 01:39 AM
Response to Original message
24. I'm not Christian
But at what point did Jesus give a damn about politics?
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DanCa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 01:57 AM
Response to Reply #24
25. At what point did America become Rome JR (nt)
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Tux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 02:24 AM
Response to Reply #25
28. Hmm
At what point did liberals answer questions with questions?
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NAO Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-09-05 01:31 AM
Response to Reply #25
44. Rome fell (and Western Civilization collapsed) because of Christianity
and I fear that the United States, and our Post-Modern Civilization is once again being endangered by the curious superstition of "the Christians".

--see my post #22, linked below, for more on this topic:

"Christianity is the longest running atrocity in human history"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=4045737&mesg_id=4046107
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jillan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 01:59 AM
Response to Original message
27. I have a ?? for those of you that have read the bible
Does it say anywhere in the Bible about abortion?
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gollygee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 10:31 AM
Response to Original message
31. Then they also need to deny communion to people who vote for candidates
who support the death penalty, the war in iraq, etc.

Oh wait, there won't be any candidates left. I guess Catholics can't vote?
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DS1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 10:31 AM
Response to Original message
32. I think if the Vatican was serious about this, it should go beyond
these written tongue-lashings and enforce some genuine punishment.

Otherwise I read this as the church saying "NO! Bad doggie! Don't chew the slippers! Bad doggie!"
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Obamarama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 10:33 AM
Response to Original message
34. self delete
Edited on Fri Jul-08-05 10:39 AM by KzooDem
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bklyncowgirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 10:35 AM
Response to Original message
35. Death Penalty and unjust war also against Catholic teachings
Boy, they're going to have to excommunicate a whole HELL of alot of politicians.


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Johonny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 10:38 AM
Response to Original message
36. The great thing about religion

is it's so easy to change! If the catholic church doesn't want me I'm sure one of the million other churches in the world will kiss my ass to get me.
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bleedingheart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 10:38 AM
Response to Original message
37. I used to go to church...I used to give money to the Catholics
but that has all changed.

I can not support the church any longer...it makes me a hypocrite.

To be honest I feel closer to God/Goddess when I am in my garden and my hands are working the earth...and especially so when I hold my children in my arms...

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immoderate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 10:50 AM
Response to Reply #37
38. I think that's all the religion you need.
Either god knows, or he doesn't.

--IMM
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 11:08 AM
Response to Original message
39. More good reasons to be an ex-Catholic.
I gave up on it when I was about 12 and just couldn't believe it. My wife gave up on it at age 63 when the sheer hypocrisy overwhelmed her.
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dbonds Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 02:44 PM
Response to Original message
41. Exactly what the Catholic Church needs to bring entice more people
to join. :sarcasm:
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GeekMonkey Donating Member (418 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 02:49 PM
Response to Original message
43. If there was a god, there'd be no Vatican
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