Debate Thread 2

[proud patriot]

Let's continue here


Edited to include link to Thread 1 :
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=404451

[sham]

1. link to first thread?

[proud patriot]

2. Link to first thread here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=404451

[sham]

4. thanks, I couldn't find it.

[proud patriot]

36. Your welcome

:hi: I'm going to edit to include it in the original post

[Renew Deal]

3. Kerry takes responsibility for tax cuts.

Attacks Dean.

[blm]

69. Said the Dems fought for those middle class taxcuts.

And that is how they ended up in the bill.

NONE of the Dem candidates voted for Bush's taxcut in the end, however.

[Malikshah]

5. OK--Tax Cuts Question--here it comes....

Insana's question as to what to do w/ Tax cuts-- here is the attack

Kerry's attack on Dean and Gephardt---uses individuals

Now will Dean get the rebuttal--

With all due respect----good start.
Politicians promising everything...tell the truth..can't afford all the tax cuts and have social services...bringing up the tax cuts vs. all the raise in social services/property taxes....

go howard

[GBD4]

6. Dean

Graham and I are the only ones who balanced budgets

[proud patriot]

7. Dean's response

I've done it ...

[CMT]

Dean's hit a home run with his response to Kerry

Go Howard!!

[Cha]

25. Thank Goodness! Go Dean!

[GBD4]

8. Kerry

Federal Gov gave Dean money to balance his VT budgets

[proud patriot]

9. Ghephart thinks "John's wrong"

:shrug:

[WilliamPitt]

10. Kerry fully engaged against Dean

Before anyone freaks, this is good stuff, and necessary.

[Malikshah]

18. Agreed

It's def. necessary-- it's a complex topic alas--and both sides need to get as much info out as possible.

As my taxes have increased, social services cut, etc. my consumer spending has def decreased... hence my views on the debates here

[MissB]

20. It is important

and necessary. But Kerry can't possibly provide a decent rebuttal in 30 seconds.

[MissB]

11. Kerry attacking Dean again on the 30 second rebuttal

Saying that the federal government gave 21% to Vermont to help Dean balance his budget.

[meegbear]

22. Feel the burn ....

sounds like Kerry hit the home run. N'est ce-pas?

[Malikshah]

Non

C'est fini.

[Malikshah]

12. Gephardt

Don't keep 1/2 2/3 of a failure--

Change the policy, etc.

Sorry Kerry--they're getting their facts in line to rebut your attacks on them.

Kerry rebuttal--Consumer spending.... what about services cutting into consumer spending....Kerry--c'mon now.

[w13rd0]

13. Interesting...

...looks like the "attack" camp in someones campaign won out.

This is an energetic debate. Kerry goes over time. Whoo, yeah, a very energetic debate...

Those who are realizing that Bush is under 50% and the time to attack him is NOW and are doing so, props to them.

Those that are attacking, specifically, anyone that might be the future nominee, SHAME...

Glad I'm recording this...

[Supply Side Jesus]

14. I dont think Kerry looked to hot there

Dean and gephart really tackled the issue.

[JohnKleeb]

15. not watching but heres that post

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=403221
look at mine explaining why I support Kucinich.
Also sorry to do this and it seems DK is saying bring em home. Amen dude amen, these guys dont deserve this no one does to have to possibly die and be traumatize by Bush. Wouldnt it be great if the troops heard him and caught on :), then would the skeptics stop it, hes already popular with VFP, Veterans For Peace I am told.

[MissB]

16. Clark "this administration hasn't had an economic policy

it's had a tax cut policy"

Pay as you go
Progressive tax code.

[proud patriot]

17. Question to Clark .....about lower capital gains tax being good?

Clark; this admin doesn't have an economic policy
they have a tax cut policy ....:thumbsup:

[GBD4]

19. Graham

you don't have to watch my lips saying no to no new taxes

we are asking our children and grandchildren to pay for our problems

[proud patriot]

21. Q: to Graham .... will you pledge "No New Taxes"

get's a laugh saying No...and you don't have to read my lips ..LOL

[proud patriot]

23. same Q to Lieberman

he piggy backs on Graham ..

[Cush]

24. WTF is Lieberman talking about

[Malikshah]

26. Lieberman

Attacks on Dean and Gephardt-- getting old Old Joe

Funny how the attackers keep going over

[rbnyc]

28. went overtime...

...trying to explain how old democrats just want to raise taxes and oppose trade. It might be easier to explain if it were true. Way to oversimplify and demonize half the party.

[BrewCrew]

attacks

Gep and Dean being attacked as a team...Kerry, then Joe and now Edwards. We need to let these guys respond. These formats suck

[tridim]

27. I'm fucking pissed

Why the hell can't I watch or listen to this debate? Because I don't have cable? Even fucking NPR isn't streaming it. Debates should be available to everyone. I guess us poor cable-less folks just aren't important enough. I'll be sulking in the corner. :(

[Renew Deal]

29. Try wnyc.org.

[Pastiche423]

wnyc is NOT streaming

[rbnyc]

41. on air only--not streaming.

which is upsetting.

[Pastiche423]

31. I'm in the corner w/you

[BrewCrew]

34. web

have you tried

www.websoapbox.com

are they streaming or playing?

[rbnyc]

35. You're right! It truly sucks.

I'm lucky enough to be home listening to the radio, but I don't understand why WNYC didn't think this was important enough to stream.

[w13rd0]

44. We'll get it out to you...

...I certainly think these, actually all the debates, need to find their way into wide availability. If I can seperate just the audio, I'll try and provide an audiofile later...

[tridim]

72. I appreciate it, but

the big problem is, the American public will never see it. I guess that's the GOP-media plan. It's depressing.

[JVS]

45. i'm thinking of going to a sport's bar tonight to try to catch it.

[GBD4]

30. boring, IMO

no energy in the room for example applauding is almost nonexistent

very forum like

Williams should be quiet, he elongates each syllable too much

camera shots are making me dizzy

I feel like no one is watching at 4 p.m.

argh...

[w13rd0]

37. Well, it IS a Wall Street Journal debate...

...and the right forum for the discussion topic. I'm not exactly expecting energy from the audience. The energy from the stage is MORE than enough...

Guys, WE ROCK! Bush SUCKS!

[WilliamPitt]

42. You're kidding, right?

Debates are like this. I find it fascinating and excellent and more than a little energetic.

To each his own, I guess.

[blm]

57. some people don't like policy talk...

I thrive on it. It's the horserace talk that I detest.

[MissB]

32. The camera shot on Clark

while Edwards was speaking. Looks like Clark is having fun. He doesn't look nervous.

[MissB]

38. Sharpton" we've read bush's lips.. and they lied."

..

[wyldwolf]

Clark has had big mouthed drill seargents screaming into his face...

..this is child's play.

[WilliamPitt]

47. He got several pieces of his body blown off in Vietnam

I doubt nine Democrats and a bunch of media whores can rattle him. :)

[bicentennial_baby]

51. Excellent point!

[Jackhammer Jesus]

49. See when it cut to Gephardt during Edwards' response?

He was giving him the evil eye!

[blm]

50. Edwards, Kerry, and Clark all aligned on the taxcuts.

Interesting. Preserve the working class taxcut, cancel the taxcut for the wealthy.

[GBD4]

33. Sharpton

we're not talking tax cuts, but tax shifts

do we want tax cuts for sneaker purchases or lower interest rates?

[phillybri]

39. Sharpton is great.....

Love that guy...

[fizzana]

40. I have to side with Kerry on the middle class tax cut issue

The bones thrown to the middle class in the tax cuts do help those struggling to get by. More needs to be done for the middle class but taking away those bones will IMO not play well with those sitting on the fence.

[CMT]

46. any advantage has been taken away

by higher state taxes, property taxes, and budget cuts at state level in my opinion.

[Malikshah]

63. Not just your opinion CMT

People need to realize the tax situation, unfunded/funded mandate situation, social services, etc.

They're taxing the most basic issues in states around the nation--to get licenses for being blind (I saw a report on this somewhere--forgive the lack of link) in NY, etc. WTF is good about that?

The old Tax cut will help all is bogus. It's a lot more complex than that.

[deutsey]

80. We've cut many important services locally

(such as mental health services)

My mom lost her state job due to budget problems, as did many others.

A local politician said our county/town got stuck with a huge bill in cleaning up after a blizzard last year (when FEMA used to help out a lot).

Remember David Stockman saying the Reagan admin intentionally created deficits hoping to make it impossible to fund gov't programs?

[Feanorcurufinwe]

52. "I will raise your taxes" - is how Mondale lost in '84

[deutsey]

53. We'll be paying out the wahzoo in state and local taxes or

cuts in services, IMO.

[Malikshah]

43. Don't Edwards, Lieberman etc. get it

2000.00 is needed by the Middle Class? Of course-- but that 2000.00 disappears when the property taxes go up, when interest rates rise up, when they have to pay more for basic services--new taxes on things.....

Sorry Kerry, sorry Lieberman, sorry Edwards-- it doesn't work that way--it's Republican thinking-- and republican message sending---

i.e. oooooh--- we're giving them money-- they want to take that away-- what complete twaddle

[hang a left]

48. in california i can't find it help

[Qutzupalotl]

90. CNBC

.

[rbnyc]

55. I thought Dean did a pretty good job...

...of explaining that. I hope people will get it.

[sham]

66. exactly.

my city is in a budget crisis. so what did they do? jacked up the cost of fucking WATER!!! who does this hurt? the poor and the middle class. these guys don't get it. we've got to do something decisive to turn this thing around. kinda sorta maybe repealing SOME of the Bush* tax cuts isn't going to work, and it isn't going to help any of the poor around here.

[AP]

98. Damn. You can't hold progressive taxation hostage to what state/local gov

does!!!!

Fight for progressive taxation at all levels.

It drives me CRAZY when people make this stoooopid argument. Who said this first? I'd like to slap that person.

[fizzana]

109. Tax cuts for the top 10% including reductions in capital gains

and dividend taxes by far constitute most of the tax cut. Add in the obscene farm subsidies and you can restore the funding that's taking away services and forcing local taxes to be raised.

If I were sitting on the fence and the Democrat candidate was considering removing some of those taxes I would think twice about it. It might be fiscally right but it could be a big mistake politically.

[GBD4]

54. Williams

our guests: the ten DECLARED candidates

hmm, an allusion to LaRouche? :)

[StephNW4Clark]

56. Or Hillary

don't forget MSNBC=MSGOP

[meegbear]

60. Pulling the tired Hillary card again

Go away Williams and let a real moderator run this.

[w13rd0]

83. More like Hillary and Gore...

...since many of the RW still entertain those notions, that this is all just to "deflect blows" from those behind the scenes. I don't give a damn what they think. Great debate, now Williams asking Gep about Union attack on Kerry. Yes, a conservative panel, and they are trying to get those that will take the bait to attack the other candidates, but those who know what's up take the opportunity to talk about alternatives to Bush, and if it happens to differ from another candidate, fine, but those that take the bait...SHAME, bad move...

There's Kerry, taking the bait. I'll say this now, keep in mind there's alot of people out there watching this because of Clark, supporters, detractors and the undecided. Curiosity if nothing else.

Those taking the bait are demonstrating that they can be manipulated by the RW media. Those that don't are demonstrating real leadership...

Dean is now responding, specifically to issues of free vs. fair trade. Revise all our trade agreements to include standards. I'm biased, but kudos to Dean for taking the opportunity to talk about those alternatives.

[wyldwolf]

58. commercial break... run to the john and the kitchen!

[phegger]

59. That's it, I'm voting for Al Sharpton

maybe :)

CMB also doing well

god I hate this format...like a fucking game show




-ph :smoke:

[sham]

76. it's pissing me off how they're ignoring her.

CMB has a lot to say, and she keeps getting ignored in these debates. either that or she gets lumped together with Sharpton. un-fucking-fair for everyone.

[realFedUp]

61. Borger answering her own questions.

I've never seen a questioner decide what
the answer is while she asks the question.

This panel is conservative.

[ronzo]

62. All in all, everybody's looking/sounding good. I'm pleased.

eom

[VolcanoJen]

64. A commercial??!! Well, I'm breathless, so maybe a break is good!

Wow... that was some fast and furious stuff we just watched.

I'm so proud of all of our candidates (except for maybe Holy Joe). Each one of them sounds brighter, and looks better, than Chimpy on his best day.

VICTORY '04, here we come!!

[Cush]

75. What?

You don't like Holy Joe? BUt he's the man!!

Yeah, yeah, I'm joking here ;-)

[hang a left]

78. on west coast and i cnat find it, cna someone help?

[MissB]

84. It's on CNBC

Only channel, I think.

[hang a left]

95. is there a time delay?

[MissB]

104. Not that I know of

It was supposed to start at 4 pm ET which would be 1 pm PT. I'm in Oregon, so no delay here.

[TrogL]

65. I'm confused - where's Arnie?

Or is this a different debate.

[JVS]

67. anything from Kucinich?

[59millionmorons]

68. Say what you want

I enjoy this nice civil debate. How refreshing.

[Renew Deal]

70. Still early.

[GBD4]

71. Gephardt

Dubya's declared war on the middle class

a colossal disaster

[ronzo]

74. dad drove a milk truck... DRINK! n/t

[Malikshah]

73. Union Question Gephardt--baiting on Kerry

Gephardt--giving history--will he take the bait....
Attacks * for war on middle class...loss more jobs than Hoover..almost...we need to have a policy to build new jobs in this country...we need fair trade not free trade...standards.....for wage...

Now Kerry baited...

[Malikshah]

77. Kerry takes the bait

Now Dean's rebuttal????

[DoYouEverWonder]

79. Can't they all be president

I don't want to have to pick just one.

They should all join forces and divey up the jobs between them. Clark and Dean could flip a coin for who gets to be pres and then put the rest of them in cabinet positions. What a dream team that would be. Then instead of spending their money against each other, they could pool their resources to fight Bu$hCo.

[GBD4]

81. Dean

: anti-trade, anti-Israel, anti-social security? WRONG, I say!

[BrewCrew]

88. nice answer

i'm a gep-man, but Dean's answer on supporting NAFTA and China because it was good for VT, but that he's changed his opinion after hanging and campaigning in the Midwest makes sense. Its a good answer!

[Malikshah]

82. Dean's Rebuttal?

Responding to all the attacks.

We have to go back and revise trade agreements

If we don't- the trade policy will fail.

No longer willing to sacrifice middle class jobs to pad bottom line of multinational corps

[meegbear]

94. Why is dean "attacked" ...

but the others aren't?

[GBD4]

85. Kerry

don't fix problems by way of pandering

Democrats can't love jobs and hate the people who create them

[w13rd0]

93. He says...

..."pandering by closing the door in their face"

Huh?

Pfft... Kerry has officially moved down on my list of preferences...

[meegbear]

99. Oh you mean you're gonna support dean now?

[realFedUp]

96. Dems don't hate the people who create jobs

Dems hate the unfairness of companies moving
offshore, not paying taxes on profits made there,
calling themselves American companies, paying
lower wages in environments that aren't regulated....

[realFedUp]

86. Sounds like Kerry wants more R & D

money.

[blm]

107. What's R & D money?

.

[Renew Deal]

87. a live audio webstream of the debate:

a live audio webstream of the debate:

http://www.kxl.com/listenlive.asp

[rbnyc]

91. Woo-Hoo!!! See this everyone!

Thanks. I can stop searching now.

[ronzo]

92. excellent.

thank you.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

102. windows only

:thumbsdown:

[GBD4]

89. Graham

I AM the jobs candidate

I presided over the creation of over 1.4 million new jobs

per capita income was above national avg for first time

best business climate for 3 years in the nation

we need a more progressive tax structure

if we can rebuild Iraq, we can rebuild America

[sham]

97. I liked Graham's answer.

I think he's doing well in this debate.

[GBD4]

100. Clark

create positive incentives for businesses to create jobs

I have a better job plan in 9 days than Dubya has had in 3 years

[VolcanoJen]

101. Wesley's a little hoarse, isn't he?

;-) a little horse... geddit?

Losing his voice already... very Clintonesque!

[kayleybeth]

108. Yes

I was thinking the same thing, very Clintonesque.

[ronzo]

112. Yeah, excess speechifyin'... eom

[Terwilliger]

103. It's getting a bit nasty folks!

:wow:

[realFedUp]

105. Howabout coming up with a 10 year plan for this country

Put the creative brains together to come up with
new jobs around new sources of energy and business
that the rest of the world wants to buy.

[GBD4]

106. Moderator Mr. Insana

drawing differences between Lieberman and Moseley Braun

:)

[proud patriot]

110. Link to thread 3 here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=404986

[w13rd0]

111. Granted, this is a debate where they can differentiate their positions...

...but the moderator and questioners are baiting at every opportunity.

Man, Joe is talking right now. Whatever...

They were trying to pit Lieberman v CMB??? Ok, whatever. CMB is WAY too classy to take the bait, she's doing a good job of responding. Yeah, this is a way energetic debate, and I'm proud of those that are demonstrating that they aren't easily manipulated by the media...