Dem Debate Thread 3

[proud patriot]

Please continue :hi:
Thread 1
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=404451

Thread 2
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=404706

[VolcanoJen]

1. Clark's a little hoarse, isn't he?

;-) a little horse... geddit?

Losing his voice already... very Clintonesque!

(pasted from the bottom of thread 2)

[phillybri]

2. I love Carol....

She's so great!

[kayleybeth]

108. I love CMB too.

She's a breath of fresh air.

[proud patriot]

3. Q; about intrests rates

To Clark

[rbnyc]

4. "Job hemorrhage!"

Go Embassador!

[Malikshah]

10. Hmmm...

Who said that already? Methinks they're using each other more and more

[rbnyc]

18. I think it should be oft repeated.

We've always needed to work on our sound-bytes. That's a great one. People should look at shrub and think "job hemorrhage!"

But who did say it first?

[Renew Deal]

5. Larouche Larouche Larouche

j/k

[realFedUp]

6. Clark and home ownership

wants to guarantee everyone can get a home....

Well, maybe someone can still afford a house
in Ohio somewhere...not in California.

[Renew Deal]

8. Same in NY

[realFedUp]

7. Kucinich says the $3 trillion debt won't allow

stuff like affordable housing as well intentioned as that is.

Dennis does always cut through the rhetoric.

[sham]

17. DK on the money on that question.

"We need to look into WHY Americans are losing their jobs." Then talks more about NAFTA, WTO.

I'm getting awfully tired of Kerry going over his time ON EVERY TURN. It's very unbecoming.

[MissB]

Kerry's message gets lost

a bit when he goes over. Every single time.

[realFedUp]

Wow, didn't realize this was two hours...

break.

[JohnKleeb]

25. well NAFTA and WTO have a fair share amount to do with it

I dont know if you know this but he has proposed job programs to repair the country much like FDR's new deal. He's dead on about everything, thats why I support him. His district has been affected by NAFTA I am pretty sure I dont know I dont live there, I do know where my grandparents grew up which was once coal and steel country has had jobs lost to it. The mines are closed as are the mills. Interestingly its now more republican. That town is Johnstown, Pa.

[Ilsa]

35. ITA. I consider myself impartial,

and don't care for it. And I stop listening to him also.

[rbnyc]

9. "It's not a choice between trade and no trade...

..it's a return to bilateral trade based on workers' rights."

DK

[GBD4]

11. Gephardt

how many jobs do Americans have to lose before Dubya loses his?

[MissB]

12. Just for a little humor

I clicked over to Faux for a moment. Obviously, I didn't expect to see the debate over there. They had a segment on "How to land a man". I kid you not.

[Qutzupalotl]

37. Is that intended for fighter planes?

;)

[CMT]

13. just thinking hard about it and I accept his answer on NAFTA

it makes sence to me. It was good for Vermont, but he has seen what it has done to other states since he has begun campaigning.

[w13rd0]

14. Haha...

...WHOOT!

OUR CANDIDATES KICK ASS! BUSH SUCKS!

Again, those that are demonstrating that they won't easily be baited into divisionary tactics by the RW media, my applause for you, you all are demonstrating leadership. Asking Gep how he will ensure that companies play by the rules when given the tax breaks from his healthcare plan.

Whoa! Gep gets the first applause line of the night, I hadn't heard any to that point.

[proud patriot]

19. Yeah they do

:7

[Terwilliger]

15. Did I hear hissing on Kerry's comment?

He said nobody can find enough money to make UHC happen

[Feanorcurufinwe]

21. Honesty

"Kerry: You have to tell the truth and let the chips fall where they may." http://www.gristmagazine.com/maindish/kerry092303.asp

[diplomats]

47. First I didn't know what UHC meant

then I figured it out - universal health care (duh!). (I'm at work so I won't get to see the debate until tonight.)

[SEAburb]

16. Kucinich leaves interest question, to demagogue trade policy issue

???

[Karmadillo]

43. Demagogue? Please explain. Thanks.

n/t

[VolcanoJen]

So, Clark's gotta love just kickin' back....

... and smiling while Dean, Kerry, Edwards and Gephardt attack each other. Interesting... I really expected them to come out guns-a-blazin' against Wes.

[sham]

Haven't heard from Dean in a few minutes.

I hope they get to him after the break.

Clark is smiling, looks like he's having fun.

[elcondor]

26. LOL, he is just standing there smiling!

:7

But seriously, most everyone is doing well. I am honestly proud of them.

[maha]

32. I agree.

No serious bloopers so far. Nice debate.

[onehandle]

31. Everyone wants Wes for VP....

Just watch.

[janekat]

86. I don't agree but- do you think it means they're going to be nice to him?

[GBD4]

20. Graham

"I believe in the radical rather idea that if you want to create jobs, you create jobs!"

"what better way to add to the economic strength of America"...than to create jobs through public works?"

[w13rd0]

22. I think it's loosening up a bit...

...for the person who said it lacked energy from the audience earlier. Graham responded on jobs, now Sharpton is talking on jobs.

Jobs, jobs, jobs...

Hehe...

Whoot! Well, I think it's time for me to put some cork in the bat...

[Malikshah]

23. YOU GO AL!

Love it-- focus on the facts-- tell it like it is-- the boom was due to the new invention of the internet-- not to Clinton's ability to walk on water :)

[w13rd0]

28. Clinton could walk on water?

WHOA! Who knew? j/k

Breather time...go to the bath and fridge quick!

[VolcanoJen]

24. Yawn... Joe just loves giving tax cuts to any company who asks, huh?

Give it up, Joe...

[Malikshah]

27. OT--Yay Commercial breaks

It's nice of them to have commercial breaks--

They must have folks at DU in mind--giving folks a break from transmitting blow by blows...

Thanks folks

[VelmaD]

29. Well, no internet feed AGAIN

KXL just cut away. Anybody got any other places we can go listen?

DV

[Malikshah]

30. And they're back n/t

[revcarol]

33. Just tuned in.

Sort of a nasty format: trying to pit two candidates against each other.

[w13rd0]

49. glad someone noticed...

...it's bothered me, and I think it shows leadership to demonstrate that the bait won't be taken...

[realFedUp]

34. Carol's single payer plan

I think this could work....anyone know more about this?

[Malikshah]

36. To CMB--on Health Care Proposal

Answer: Single-payer system. Doesn't depend on employment.
Clinton's plan was to reconcile-- not reconcilable (sic)

Give small businesses a boost-- how to pay?

Take it off of payroll tax??

[Malikshah]

38. Clarks plan?

Reviews problems first.
9 days-- don't have a complete package yet

Build upon existing programs
Raise limits on medicaid
Look at substance of proposals
Preventive/diagnostic care.

in other words-- come back to me on this-- good start though

[VolcanoJen]

40. It sure didn't take Wes long to get up-to-speed on the issues.

He continues to impress me...

[janekat]

112. Wes should be able to do ok - has an M.S. in econ. and was an

econ. professor...

[kayleybeth]

48. I agree

Good start. I wish he would have had a little more on this though. This is an important issue for me.

[liberalnurse]

55. Yes, very intersting start....

Primary Care; Prevention......Which leave the next step unsupported yet, What happens when a diagnosis is made and no heathcare plan to pay for effective treatment? This is Secondary.

"Clarks Plan Proposal"

[Ilsa]

39. These are great candidates.

I'd proud to have any one of them over the shrub we have now. I hope they appreciate each other, also.

[salin]

45. Best crew in years. n/t

[VolcanoJen]

56. Gawd, no kidding!!!

These guys (and gal!) are the absolute best. I'm beaming with pride!!!!

[GBD4]

41. Graham

there will be nothing done about prescription drug prices while Dubya is Pres

Dubya's in bed with pharmaceutical companies

let's make it easier for drug importation (wow that one surprised me but hey!)

[ronzo]

44. literally in bed with? Bob? n/t

[CMT]

51. Bob Graham is stellar today

I love the idea of Dean/Graham or even Graham/Dean

[Kahuna]

74. I agree. I think if he had started out with this strong...

a voice, he'd be a lot better along by now. Too bad. He's more than qualified to be president.

[seafan]

54. Bob's on a ROLL!

Isn't the truth wonderful??!!

:toast:

[ClintonTyree]

58. Graham's from Florida...................

America's Jurrasic Park. He needs to appeal to them.

[ClintonTyree]

42. Just logged on..............

I'm losing ALL respect for Kerry.

[realFedUp]

46. Lieberman on importation of cheaper drugs from Canada

Says there is a crisis and has introduced legislation
for importation with FDA approval. Wants to ask
Canadians to share some costs (?)

[A-Schwarzenegger]

50. Graham: "George Bush is LITERALLY IN BED

with pharmaceutical companies."

Pics please.... Er, no pics please.

[AlinPA]

52. That Gloria Borger has a constant hateful sneer.

I watch CNBC and when she comes on I switch channels. She hates Dems.

[caledesi]

59. I loathe her! Did you notice the "slant" on her questions?

[ClintonTyree]

68. Everyone on CNBC hates Dems..............

they're going to take their tax cuts away. There goes the second yacht.

[realFedUp]

53. Kucinich says drug companies own the health care system in US

Has a plan....must be on his website...

[Jackhammer Jesus]

57. Says his plan is better than Dean's...

"It's time to get a second opinion."

From Brian Williams, "So many doctor puns, so little time!"

[Karmadillo]

69. Says Dean's plan leaves 10,000,000 citizens uncovered

n/t

[Karmadillo]

66. Link to Kucinich's single payer plan

http://www.kucinich.us/issues/issue_universalhealth.htm

The Kucinich plan is enhanced 'Medicare for All' -- a universal, single-payer system of national health insurance, carefully phased in over 10 years. It addresses everyone's needs, including the 40 million Americans without coverage and those paying exorbitant rates for health insurance. This approach to healthcare emphasizes patient choice, and puts doctors and patients in control of the system, not insurance companies. Coverage will be more complete than private insurance plans, encourage prevention and include prescription drugs.

Health care is currently dominated by insurance firms and HMOS, institutions that are more bureaucratic and costly than Medicare. People are waiting longer for appointments. Fewer people are getting a doctor of their choice. Physicians are given monetary incentives to deny care. Pre-existing illnesses are being used to deny coverage.

Over time, the Kucinich plan will remove private insurance companies from the system -- along with their waste, paperwork, profits, excessive executive salaries, advertising, sales commissions, etc -- and redirect resources to actual treatment. Insurance companies do not heal or treat anyone, physicians and health practitioners do ...and thousands of physicians support a single-payer system because it reduces bureaucracy and shelters the doctor-patient relationship from HMO and insurance company encroachment.

Non-profit national health insurance will decrease total healthcare spending while providing more treatment and services -- through reductions in bureaucracy and cost-cutting measures such as bulk purchasing of prescriptions drugs. Funding will come primarily from existing government healthcare spending (more than $1 trillion) and a phased-in tax on employers of 7.7% (almost $1 trillion). The employers' tax is less than the 8.5% of payroll now paid on average by companies that provide private insurance. For budgetary details, click here.

more...

[goodhue]

70. here it is

http://www.kucinich.us/issues/issue_universalhealth.htm

The Kucinich plan is enhanced 'Medicare for All' -- a universal, single-payer system of national health insurance, carefully phased in over 10 years. It addresses everyone's needs, including the 40 million Americans without coverage and those paying exorbitant rates for health insurance. This approach to healthcare emphasizes patient choice, and puts doctors and patients in control of the system, not insurance companies. Coverage will be more complete than private insurance plans, encourage prevention and include prescription drugs.

Health care is currently dominated by insurance firms and HMOS, institutions that are more bureaucratic and costly than Medicare. People are waiting longer for appointments. Fewer people are getting a doctor of their choice. Physicians are given monetary incentives to deny care. Pre-existing illnesses are being used to deny coverage.

Over time, the Kucinich plan will remove private insurance companies from the system -- along with their waste, paperwork, profits, excessive executive salaries, advertising, sales commissions, etc -- and redirect resources to actual treatment. Insurance companies do not heal or treat anyone, physicians and health practitioners do ...and thousands of physicians support a single-payer system because it reduces bureaucracy and shelters the doctor-patient relationship from HMO and insurance company encroachment.

Non-profit national health insurance will decrease total healthcare spending while providing more treatment and services -- through reductions in bureaucracy and cost-cutting measures such as bulk purchasing of prescriptions drugs. Funding will come primarily from existing government healthcare spending (more than $1 trillion) and a phased-in tax on employers of 7.7% (almost $1 trillion). The employers' tax is less than the 8.5% of payroll now paid on average by companies that provide private insurance. For budgetary details, click here.

This type of system -- privately-delivered health care, publicly financed -- has worked well in other countries, none of whom spend as much per capita on healthcare as the United States. 'We're already paying for national healthcare; we're just not getting it, says Kucinich. The cost-effectiveness of a single-payer system has been affirmed in many studies, including those conducted by the Congressional Budget Office and the General Accounting Office. The GAO has written:
"If the US were to shift to a system of universal coverage and a single payer, as in Canada, the savings in administrative costs (10% to private insurers) would be more than enough to offset the expense of universal coverage."

Over the years, groups and individuals as diverse as Consumers Union, labor unions, the CEO of General Motors, the editorial boards of the Atlanta Journal-Constitution and St. Louis Post Dispatch, and Physicians for a National Health Program have endorsed a single-payer approach. It is sound economics -- what actuaries call 'Spreading the Risk' -- to extend Medicare to younger and healthier sectors of our population, thereby putting everyone in one insurance pool. It permanently saves and improves Medicare, while eliminating duplicative private and government bureaucracies.

While enhanced Medicare for All makes economic sense, it has not made political sense to some, due to the power of the private insurance lobby. The streamlined Kucinich plan is very different than the 1993 Clinton HMO-based plan, a complex proposal that left big insurance firms in a central role. After Clinton's 'Managed Competition' plan failed without coming up for a vote, talk-radio host Jim Hightower asked President Clinton why he hadn't put forward a "simple, straightforward" single-payer plan "instead of all this bureaucracy." Clinton replied, "I thought it would be easier to pass" a bill that left the insurance industry in place. "I guess I was wrong about that."

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Enhanced 'Medicare for All'

Financing
Medicare for All would cost the same amount of money that is now spent on health care costs, approximately $2.2 T/year when fully phased in (FY 2013, including inflation). These funds would be provided by the following sources. (Amounts reflect FY 2013 amounts when the plan is fully phased in). In year 3, the new benefits package would be implemented and all children would receive their health care from Medicare for All. Costs are slightly higher in year 4 to account for new patients born into the program and inflation. In year 5, all individuals 55 and over would be phased into the program. In year 6, only people turning 55 in that year would be phased in. This would continue for the remainder of age groups in years 7-10.

1. Existing government spending: $1063.6 billion

Maintain existing federal, state and local revenues that currently pay for Medicare and other federal and state programs (with the exception of revenues that now pay government workers’ health premiums).

2. Employers: $917 billion

Phase in a tax on employers of 7.7% on all public and private employers ($917 billion). This is less than what employers currently pay on average for employee health coverage. Employers who provide coverage currently pay an average of 8.5% of payroll for much less comprehensive coverage.

3. No more deductions: $245 billion

Employers that pay some or all of the cost for employee health coverage deduct these expenses. Under Medicare for All, employer payment for private health coverage would end, so government expenditures for these deductions would as well.

4. Cost savings: -$230 billion

There will be significant cost savings from consolidating administrative costs and through bulk purchasing of prescription drugs.

5. Increased Utilization: $180 billion

Patients who were previously uninsured or underinsured will begin to use health care services that they need.

6. Existing non patient revenues: $30 billion

Existing funds raised from individual donations, foundations and hospital gift shops.

[GBD4]

60. Clark

Dubya said he'd protect SS, but all he's done is offer tax cuts rather than make SS solvent for the next 75 yrs

[kiahzero]

81. Privitization

I'm an avid Clark supporter, but I was worried about him demogouging the Social Security issue. Then in the extra 30 seconds, he definitely nailed it.

I really think his biggest problem is going too far into the nuance of an issue.

On an unrelated issue, damn Dean is on today. The way he just responded to that Gephardt attack was beautiful.

"We need to remember here that the enemy is George Bush, not each other."

[VolcanoJen]

61. Kucinich: "With a doctor advocating that, it's time to get a 2nd opinion!"

Cute soundbyte, Dennis. :-)

[kaitykaity]

62. Please Ignore Lars Larson's snarky comments on KXL.

The guy is a right-wing nug job.

I can not believe only KXL (here in Portland) is
broadcasting this with CNBC on the air.

Geez.

[MissB]

105. Oh how horrible.

I saw the KXL link up on one of the debate threads. Oooh.. I hate Lars. The local version of Rush.

[realFedUp]

63. Agree with closing tax loopholes for corporations

especially the tax breaks and government contracts
in no bid situations.

[salin]

64. Are they asking Dean questions? It is on in the other room

and I keep hearing Graham, Edwards, Clark, some Sharpton, Kerry - but seems like I am not hearing much of the others - is it my imagination?

[sham]

67. Dean has had one 30 sec. rebuttal

since the last break. And I didn't notice that he spoke that much before. :shrug:

[VolcanoJen]

72. WTF? It's like they're ignoring Dean!

They really need to ask him some questions. This is getting ridiculous.

[CMT]

75. he hasn't had a lot of screen time but

what time he has had he has been very good, very presidential. One of his best television appearances in this type of setting imo.

[salin]

78. Ask a question... and it is answered (on the debate)

interesting interchange (a bit hot) between he and Gephardt.

[GBD4]

65. Edwards

match dollar for dollar families' incomes for private savings purposes

[DoYouEverWonder]

71. If we're have a debate

Thank Al Gore.

None of this would be happening if he had taken himself out of the race.

I love the way these candidates are conducting themselves. I guess having a single, common enemy allows them to be more civil towards each other. This is great.

[Manix]

73. ..Gloria Borger really sucks!!!!!!!

..sounds like a RePug

[caledesi]

80. She's a wicked repug and HATES dems. Listen to her questions...

they are all RW "bait" questions.

[OKNancy]

99. She's asking probing questions

and is no more snarky than the two guys asking questions

[ClintonTyree]

76. Dean.................

raise cap on social security.. you bet!

[MissB]

77. gephardt to dean" I think you are just winging it"

turned around the democratic wing of the democratic party.

Deans comeback is good.

[realFedUp]

79. Gebhardt says Dean is just winging it

Dean says Dick should be ashamed for comparing Dean
to Newt Gingrinch.
Dean fights back.

[realFedUp]

83. Dean says remember the real enemy is GWB

Dick struck out.

[rbnyc]

92. Thanks...

...I just asked who said that. I thought it was Dean but I wasn't sure. (Radio)

[ronzo]

98. nice sound bite, Dick....

he does that a lot :)

[kayleybeth]

82. Dean

Good save!

[VolcanoJen]

101. EXCELLENT job in rebuttal, Dean!!!!

I agree that it's shameful to compare anyone on that stage with Newt.

Beautiful job, Dean, and I loved when the camera focused on him while Gephardt was attacking... Dean mouthed the word "FALSE."

[caledesi]

116. caught that. he was pissed!

[rbnyc]

84. Who said this?

"We need to remember that the enemy is George Bush and not eachother."

Listening on radio, and I'm not sure who it was.

[caledesi]

88. Dean said that and got the applause!

[bicentennial_baby]

90. Dean

[realFedUp]

91. Dean

.

[rbnyc]

94. Thanks. that was awesome. (nt)

[sfecap]

95. Dean said it.

Gephart is desperate (again)

[MissB]

96. Dean said it

In response to Gephardt's comment.

[Pepperbelly]

85. Gep took a cheap shot at Dean ...

and Dean handled it well. The whole comparing anyone to the neutered grinch is misguided and too shallow for anyone to employ, much less our Prez candidate(s).

[caledesi]

97. Gep hit "below the belt"...I thought is was pretty lame.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

110. Even IF What Gephardt Claims Is True

Which I do not concede, I don't have any problem with Democrats who treat Republicans like human beings and even -- gasp -- compliment them every now and then, rather than treat them the enemy all of the time. Dehumanization of each side is part of what has caused the bitter, rancorous partisanship that has come to the fore in recent years, IMO.

I suspect certain others here have a double-standard when it comes to stuff like this, though.

DTH

[populistmom]

104. Gephardt was awful for doing that

It was such a low blow and low class. Dean handled it well and turned it around.

[AlinPA]

106. Sharpton reminded everyone Bush is the target, not each other.

I thought I heard Dean say the same after Gep. attacked Dean

[Malikshah]

Dean did

Sharpton just wanted to make sure that Dean's shaming of Geppie didn't get out of hand imho

[diplomats]

107. I also thought that Gingrich comparison

was dumb.

[Kahuna]

117. Yeah but, Dean tried to pre-empt Gep by bringing up the

accusations and excusing himself. I'd call that one almost a draw. The slimest edge to Dean.

[Manix]

120. Kerry is toast!!

I see this guy going nowhere...too much a play it safe fencesitter.

[GBD4]

87. Kucinich

SS money belongs to Main Street, not to Wall Street

[Karmadillo]

102. Advocates pushing retirement age back to 65

n/t

[Renew Deal]

89. Sharpton takes a swipe at Dean.

"We shouldn't get too personal brother Howard"

[AlinPA]

114. Shouldn't he have said this to Gep?

Gep. hit first.

[MercutioATC]

That's what I thought.

Dean was just responding to an attack by Gep.

[w13rd0]

130. He's reminding Dean that Gep's attack fell flat...

...and he need not respond with anger, but let it fall flat and drift away. I think Al is right to remind Dean of this, especially as this pile-up is now occuring...

[ClintonTyree]

93. Do us all a favor Gephardt.....................

drop out.

[realFedUp]

100. He shouldn't drop out

but he swung his bat and Dean caught it.

[Kahuna]

125. Gep is polling well against bush and in the top four.

Why should he drop out? He may be the man to take out bush.

[kayleybeth]

103. Kerry

We need to commit ourselves to energy indepence NOW.

[Cush]

113. nailed that one

saying that even if we were to get a lot out of Alaska, it would only reduce our dependence on foreign oil by 1%-2%

[blm]

124. noone handles the environment issue better than Kerry....

he explains the need in a way that even a conservative would have to agree.

He just needs the format to do it.

[GBD4]

109. Graham

one of the recurring themes of this admin is dividing Americans, pitting regions against one another in the case of the energy grid

let's have a large federal share in energy development

[elcondor]

111. Not a Dean supporter but

I liked the way he handled Gephardt's attack. "No one up here deserves to be compared to Newt Gingrich."

[blm]

118. Dean called the others "Bushlite" for many months.

Gephardt is allowed to hit back.

[salin]

115. YOOHOO candidates... it is NOT a jobless economy... Its JOBLOSS

Comeon you candidates repeat it... "JOBLOSS Economy." Again, "jobLOSS economy". Repeat until it becomes natural "jobLOSS economy!"

[caledesi]

119. I hope * and Rove are watching this. Look for boils on *'s face tomorrow!

* is going down.

All these guys/gal are good and feisty tonight. WSJ questioner and Borges...repug land.

[realFedUp]

121. Kerry seems to me to be more status quo

than either Dean or Kucinich. I think we need
some new thinking and planning in this country.
Leadership is important but leading in the right
direction is really good leadership.

[Karmadillo]

131. Agree regarding Kucinich. Not sure Dean wouldn't be to the right

of Kerry.

[AlinPA]

122. And Edwarfds reminded them to go after Bush, not each other.

Then Kerry defended Gep. Damn.

[Rowdyboy]

123. Graham and Dean are both hot today!

Very impressive, especially since I' behind Clark.

Let me add, Clark, Sharpton, Braun, and Edwards have done well. Kerry and Kuchinich get a C+, Gephart a C, and poor Joe a C-. Everyone passes!

[Malikshah]

126. WIlliams---sorry--you're a whore

Dean responded well--

WHen someone attacks you--regardless of Kerry's attempt at parsing Geppies words---you cannot lay back and not respond.

Dean was calm cool and collected. Geppies face showed it all--he got caught twisting words and trying for yet another meme soundbite--and Dean turned it around on him

And yet-- WIlliams tries to twist it against Dean--oh well--just to make it all the more whorish Williams should have called on Lieberman ...

[kaitykaity]

127. go to #4

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=405412

[ClintonTyree]

128. Kerry has attacked Dean..................

with every word he's uttered. This is coming across badly for Kerry in my opinion. Build yourself up, don't tear the others down. He's toast in my book.

[realFedUp]

129. Debate Thread #4 here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=405412