I have been misunderstood and hated because of being a Christian

[bleedingheart]

...BUT THOSE WHO HATED ME FOR MY RELIGION WERE OTHER CHRISTIANS.

Funny ain't it.

I have had other Christians mock my faith (Roman Catholic) openly....in fact some Born Again Christians don't consider me a christian...funny again...ain't it.

I have had other Christians openly try and convert me to their faith because it was "the better one"...

I have had Christian relatives mock my daughter's baptismal ceremony because they thought it was a bunch of "mumbo jumbo"..


BUT...I have never had an Atheist, Agnostic, Pagan, Muslim, Jew, Hindu, or Buddhist mock me or hate me personally because of my faith...

[aquart]

1. Ah, but you should see reform Jews and Hassidim.

Same thing. My Orthodox neighbors always used to ask me at holiday time, "You gonna be a Jew this year?"

[bleedingheart]

3. isn't it sick...

the whole thing has turned me off to the concept of organized religion of any kind.

[aquart]

12. BUT...

When someone you love dies, the rituals of your childhood, the things you were taught you MUST do, are the things that hold you together, keep you anchored to the earth, functioning and alive.

Family coming from all over, taking over the kitchen because the bereaved must not, cannot...a grieving widow with a gas stove is probably a bad idea, because the mind is almost shut down...the bowl of water and the towels beside the front door (wash off the grave) set there by busy cousins, and the baskets of fruit...And the neighbors from all nations who got together and ordered the platter of chicken from the most glatt kosher caterer on the island...which led to the Miracle of the Chicken because that platter could NOT be depleted. You ate and ate from it, yet it was still full...

The people who came to sit, because ritual decreed it, the endless hugs from friends and near strangers which nonetheless helped, and then the end, when you simply walked around the block to make it officially over so life could resume......

Religion has its vital uses.

[porphyrian]

56. Tradition has its uses, it need not be religion. - n/t

[kliljedahl]

28. An organized religion is just a cult with more members

Keith’s Barbeque Central

[aquart]

5. And Salmon Rushdie was threatened with death

Only by other Muslims.

We're all so good to our own.

[bleedingheart]

7. yeah...nothing like turning on your own...

it is just so bizarre...I liken it to a competition..."I am closer to Jesus than you....nyah nyah nyah"

[aquart]

14. Read any Betty Bowers?

So close to Jesus, he validates her parking?

[bleedingheart]

27. hahahahaha

[knitter4democracy]

61. I love her site. nt

[BushFungus]

30. Yep.

I can tell you that Evangelical Christianity is RIFE with one-upsmanship when it comes to spiritual matters. Too many of those folks fall into the trap of trying to prove their "spiritualness" over others. Like for instance, after a major disaster such as 9/11, who can give the best, most spiritual prayer after the event. "Hey look at me, I'm SO SPIRITUAL..."

Makes me want to gag.

It's all sad. But I still remain firmly in my relationship with Jesus Christ no matter how foolish others, or the church at large, may seem.

[Bluerthanblue]

63. Bleedingheart i think too

much, but, what's worse, sometimes i even listen to my thoughts :yoiks:
But, did you ever notice that when you feel right about what you know, or.... when you really are 'comfortable' in what you believe... it doesn't matter that others don't share your perspective??? it's only when i'm filled with doubt, or very unsure of my view of a situation, that i feel the need to 'convert' others 'en masse' to my 'side'-

Especially on issues that are rather 'intangible'- like 'faith'- or 'where did we come from, and where will we go'- etc.

i also talk too much-

but i hear you- and i've experienced much the same.

[Karenina]

22. In response to the audible gasp

that arose from the room when I entered, my "black hat" Rebbe announced,
"She is here because she BELONGS here amongst us."

[Jackpine Radical]

75. Well, at least your orthodox neghbors probly didn't go around

trying to convert the Goyim, and (as a pagan/Buddhist Goy) for that I am grateful.

[aquart]

141. Ever met a Lubavitcher? Oy.

They do, indeed, proselytise. Mostly, however, to those of us who have fallen away from the laws of our people.

[craychek]

2. Interesting isn't it =P

honestly though, catholics are the ones that do most of the hating and bashing of other christian faiths. I think the only reason why we don't see many other faiths bashing people here is because christians are the overwhelming majority in the US. I mean if go to other countries... say... iran, they might not dig you for being a christian.

[bleedingheart]

6. I have an Iranian Christian friend...and her family lived alongside

Muslims for centuries with no problems...

[txindy]

43. That's too bad. My experience has been the opposite.

I've known more 'christians' to disparage Catholics than the other way around. In fact, having attended services in a number of christian denominations, I can honestly say that the only ones who didn't make negative remarks about other denominations right in the service were the Catholic priests.

Go figure.

In my experience, particularly here in Texas, the Southern Baptists are the most hateful - consistently hateful - towards anyone they don't claim as one of their own. There must be some (even many) who don't feel this way, but they don't speak up. Not in this state, anyway. Fear plays a part in that. I can't imagine being afraid of my own fellow churchgoers. What a hollow life that must be.

This country doesn't have faiths bashing people here? Um,...Yeah, okay. Sure. :eyes: As for Iran, I'm certain a radical theocracy wouldn't be thrilled with christians in their midst, no. Just as this country won't be thrilled with anyone who isn't a fundie if those lunatics take over the SC. And Iraq is already well on its way to being a theocracy thanks to pResident Dumbya. Women are already being attacked with acid in public if they aren't wearing the 'proper' clothing. Barbers are being beaten for daring to give men a requested shave. Don't even get me started on Afghanistan. 'Freedom' is wonderful! :sarcasm:

[bobbieinok]

107. in 50s Southern Baptists had many pamphlets..To our Methodist Friends

etc

they pointed out where the particular denomination was 'wrong' and why the reader(s) should become Southern Baptist

I sure wish I had gotten a copy of each one and kept them

I grew up in the Southern Baptist church in the 40s and 50s in OK and was still a member in college in TX ..... graduated 1961

(had a 40th!!!!!!! reunion, didn't go.......will have a 50th!!!!!!high school reunion in 2007.........I could believe maybe 20th, but 40th, 50th....IMPOSSIBLE)

[beam me up scottie]

50. What a ridiculous thing to say.

"catholics are the ones that do most of the hating and bashing of other christian faiths"

That statement is intolerant, ignorant and wrong.

I grew up in the Northeast and most of my friends were brought up catholic.

I have never heard any of them bashing other faiths.
They never tried to "convert" me or anyone else I know.
They are some of the most vocal opponents of the fundamentalist zealots who want to force their brand of religion down our throats.
None of them have ever supported the breakdown of separation of church and state.
They do not wear their religion on their sleeve, nor do they discuss it without being asked.
They never go around announcing to the world that they are a "christian" like those who expect people to recognize their inherent moral superiority.

Granted these are my friends but the vast majority of people in the area where I grew up were catholic and I certainly would have noticed religious intolerance, since so much of it is usually directed at people like me.

I had no problem identifying it in the statement you just made.

I have a real problem with the pope, the Vatican and catholicism in general, in case you're wondering, but not with most catholics themselves.

[puddycat]

112. Catholic children always told me I was a sinner when I was little

I was a protestant and the Catholic children were taught to look down on protestants as sinners. I know this because most of my friends and also my child relatives were Catholic. They loved me, but it was clear that to them their protestant relatives were sinners. In fact, when it came down to arguments the adults were often call us protestants "heathens"

[beam me up scottie]

123. Most christian faiths teach

that other religions are false, including other christian ones.
How would they survive if they didn't ?
My personal experience, when I was growing up and now, is that catholics do not usually "bash" other christians.
The Vatican and the pope do so regularly, but not most or even many catholics.
The bigoted statement made by craychek is not backed up by evidence even though your experience as a child may be true.

[craychek]

131. sorry guys

edit: partial self delete

Just so you all know I am a catholic, and sorry, I didn't mean to paint this with such a broad brush, i do appologize.

[beam me up scottie]

134. Wow.

Kudos for deleting that.

[October]

154. Well, I guess it works in both ways

Having been raised Catholic in a major NE city, I was unaware of any "differences." I was not raised that way, nor did I ever hear any disparaging remarks about other faiths while in church.

My family members married Protestants all the time -- myself included. It was never discussed...some remained Catholic...others did not. My best friend was Protestant, and we never had words or discussed differences, except to not that we'd be enemies in parts of Northern Ireland.

When I was newly married, we looked at other churches in the suburbs and it was then that I heard rude comments from the congregation about Catholics. They didn't know my background...and so spoke openly in front of me. I was too shocked to say a word. But I was really taken aback that they had such opinions. I was so naive.

My in-laws (Methodists) called Catholics "RC's," in a sort of code-like way, and they were very anti-Catholic, it turned out. Both of them grew up in rural areas.

My husband is and has always been agnostic, and neither of us is associated with any church today.

But honestly, I had no idea till I was in my 20s that this type of prejudice existed. It seems so prevalent in suburbia. The first question asked is "What church do you belong to?" Why do they care?

[puddycat]

157. sadly, it does work both ways. And experiences do affect one's thinking.

I remember so well how bad I felt being told I was a sinner because I was protestant. I know that Catholics have prejudice heaped upon them also, but that doesn't make it right what they do to others and what they teach. This current Pope scares me---he is so regressive in his thinking. I believe people need good role models, even adults, and with the current crop of leaders in the U.S. and the world its very depressing. For example, how can you teach a child to be non-violent when the President orders the destructive bombing of a whole country that posed no harm to us? It may work with a small child, but they are quickly going to learn that our culture is twisted. I'm not real hopeful for the future of people. Period.

[The Jacobin]

55. Not in my experience

As director of RCIA for my parish in Texas (the process by which people oin the Catholic church), I have noticed something funny about other protestant religions. "No salvation outside the church" was repudiated by Vatican II -- which means that the Catholic church believes that it is common for people who are not Catholics to receive salvation. i.e. "we're all going to heaven." That is NOT the stance of non-denominational protestants (a growing number -- and mostly evangelicals). i.e. they say they are the chosen and the rest are going straight to hell.

As an aside - once a group of people decided they knew better than the church founded by Christ the splitting became impossible to stop. Once personal interpretation of the scriptures is placed as supreme, then the splitting will only stop when all of them are members of their own one person church. Each supremely convinced of their interpretation and that everyone else will burn in hell.

[craychek]

132. wasn't the salvation thing semi recent

I thought that was enacted JPII in 1988? Baptism of neccessity or something like that. That people would be eligable to go to heaven if they had no opportunity to experience Christ because of life circumstances.

If you could link me to any other info that you are drawing from about this that would be awesome.

On Edit: Forgot to add this...

The problem with scripture is the fact that is can be interpreted and often "read too deeply" by people or taken too literally or stuff like that. However, protestantism didn't really spring up due to biblical interpretations of the bible being different, it was really a result of Luther calling the Catholic church on the massive corruption that existed inside it at the time(performance of indulgences was the thing that got the ball rolling on this thing). Hell, Luther, didn't even WANT protestants to split off at first, but he was powerless to stop it unfortunately because he was in hiding as a result of many people wanting him dead.

You are right however about protestants in taking Bible interpretation way too far. This also applies to catholicism somewhat, but it's not nearly as bad.

That's my personal opinion though...

[tenshi816]

59. I don't know any Catholics who bash other Christian faiths.

I've always been on the receiving end as a Catholic because fundies just refuse to accept that Catholics are Christians at all. They wholeheartedly bash Catholicism without having any understanding of it at all.

[Terran]

170. Jeez, that is SO incorrect I can't believe it.

honestly though, catholics are the ones that do most of the hating and bashing of other christian faiths.

No Catholic will tell you that a Protestant can't get into heaven. It's the Southern Baptists and all the fundie splinters sects that think that only their little congregation is going to heaven and everyone else on Earth is damned.

Enjoy your brief stay at DU, by the way.

[Momgonepostal]

171. That has not been my experience at all...

that Catholics do the most bashing/disrespecting.

Not to say that it isn't YOUR experience, but the Christians I've run across who have been the most "Christian-er than thou" to me are conservative fundamentalists.

I'm LDS/Mormon and most anti-Mormon literature and films I've come across have been written by fundies or shown in fundie churches.

Just to clarify, I don't mean this as a condemnation of all fundamentalists. Many are good, live and let live people.

[acmavm]

4. That's because most of the time Christianity and Christians are not at

all Christ-like.

More like someone with deas of ethnic cleansing and the need to eradicate anyone or any group that doesn't see things just like they do, right down to the the smallest, most insignificant detail.

[Aristus]

8. I attend my wife's fundy church (Gawd, how I hate it!) and one time

at a prayer meeting, someone was talking about missions to Russia and about how "we need to overcome the power of the Orthodox Church", as if the Church were some kind of ENEMY! My jaw nearly dropped in shock. Fundys are SO fucked up!

[bleedingheart]

33. I used to purposely wear ornate crosses

and marian medals when i visit my protestant in-laws...just to get the hair on my sister-in-law's neck to rise up...

[knitter4democracy]

49. Ooh--did you cross yourself after prayer, too?

Drives my in-laws crazy. :evilgrin:

[eridani]

130. Don't forget scapulars!

That used to drive 'em nuts.

[knitter4democracy]

48. Yup.

I was told that the Russian Orthodox Church was leading everyone to hell by a western protestant missionary (one of those independent churches that is a mix of Pentecostalism, Evangelical, and Fundy all rolled into one). This after I had already been there once and seen that the Church was doing all it could just to survive and help its own and before the semester I was going to spend there studying.

After that semester, he was pretty mad at me when I told him I was going to convert to Orthodoxy. ;) It's just that we all really believed that Russia was all athiest (not at all--the Soviets couldn't get rid of a thousand years of the faith no matter how many martyrs they killed), and then the Western churches got all snotty when the Orthodox Church kicked them out of Russia. They went in like gangbusters (I can tell you stories!), and they weren't all good, let me tell ya. The Church was rightly concerned that they were cults (which is what they're called over there) leading people into madness.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

9. The ones who hate you "here", are not the ones you need to worry

about.

[noahmijo]

10. I've always said this to right wing christians and others

"Christians are the number one killer of Christianity"

[Mythsaje]

11. Add pagans

to your list... I seriously doubt you've ever been personally mocked by them either, though many of them are more than a little critical of the Church and its history--pointing out, quite truthfully, that many of the holidays celebrated by Christians were adopted (stolen) from Pagan faiths in order to make conversion easier.

[lildreamer316]

95. As a pagan

I will not ever mock the person. I may privately disparage the faith (because some days it drives me up a wall!!) but I will never do that in your presence nor do I 'look down" on you for finding belief and comfort where you can. Whatever works for you, friend.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

13. same here!

[Nomad559]

15. Bishop John Shelby Spong - Heretic

http://www.zippyvideos.com/10893912588915.html

:)

[Dying Eagle]

24. JSS is a good writer

I am reading "Sins of the Scripture" right now. As a atheist i am trying to understand Christianity. His books are helping.

[DiverDave]

16. I have a "Born again" friend

We used to tear it up, then he got a divorce ( his wife found another guy, in a BAR)
He tried and tried to "convert" me.
His brand of christianity teaches that ALL others that didn't take John 3:16 as gospel are going to hell.
I asked if the people that lived BEFORE Jesus where condemned to burn.
He said that they were.
Even though the "Savior" was yet to walk the face of the earth...
I just don't get it, he USED to be a rational person.

[BushFungus]

34. What they are missing

is the concept that God SO LOVED the world that He gave His only Son. This is what Christianity is based on. The love of Christ.

The issue isn't whether folks who have never heard the Gospel before are going to hell. The issue isn't whether folks before Jesus are going to hell. The issue is all about whether YOU and I are going to hell.

The Bible simply offers us a way out, and that's the Scripture you were quoted from John 3:16 and John 14:6. God SO LOVED you and I that He sent Jesus so that simply by belief in Him (as opposed to trying to be "good enough") you can be ASSURED that you are going to Heaven.

And this is what Christianity is all about.

[Mythsaje]

138. See, I got a problem with that...

A good person who doesn't buy the whole Bible thing (and who can blame us, really, considering how many freakin' wackos try to make it their own?) is condemned to hell?

Eternal damnation makes no sense in the first place. What could hell be but a punishment, and what kind of just parental figure would create a permanent punishment, since the whole purpose of punishment is to teach someone to do better next time?

It's a mind-trap with no release catch.

In my opinion.

[Ready2Snap]

17. Why they can't heelp themselves

Go check out the site
http://www.rockridgeinstitute.org/projects/strategic/nationasfamily/sfworldview

It will help you understand why you can't be just "Christian",
you have to be "Their kind of Christian."

[Dragonfli]

18. You Mean "Fristians"

Real Christians follow Christ and would never behave that way towards you, in fact all the real Christians I know lead by example and don't even hassle me about my beliefs, and I'm a Pagan.

An example of the beliefs of these Christ-like Christians can be found here.

http://liberalslikechrist.org/index.htm

If you've never been to this site, then go there it will make you feel better to know that you are not alone.

[greendog]

19. Christianity has been this way from the beginning...

...when the Orthodox Christians started to suppress and marginalize the Gnostic's. Wasn't the first Crusade Christians slaughtering Christians?

[hippywife]

39. It started just after Christ's death with the disagreements

between Paul and the apostles who lived with Christ.

[delete_bush]

20. which is why the fundies dream

of a Christian nation is both scary and comical. Within any group that relies on getting back to a notion of idealogical purity, relying on sacred texts that are not only suspect but full of contradictions, a clique will take over and claim moral authority over other competing groups.

If the fundies didn't have gays or Hollywood or abortion or whatever to unite them at some base level, they would target something or someone else, because by nature they have to be in a continual state of war. Pretty sad.

[BushFungus]

35. Which is exactly why

I had to extricate myself from the Christian Right. Although admittedly I still do adhere to the fundamentals of the Christian faith, and that I will not let go of. O8)

What kind of label could they stick on me now? I suppose I'd call myself a "politically moderate fundy," but even that is a contradiction in terms. Man, I get so confused nowadays. :yoiks:

[delete_bush]

89. it doesn't matter what you label you give yourself,

they will apply their own anyway. These people are more often than not so completely ignorant of their own sacred text that it is impossible to engage them in any sort of Biblical debate.

I'm not xtian and am no scholar, but in your shoes I would study (if you don't know already) the differences between the Old and New Testaments and how the New supplants the Old. Although it will be damn near impossible to penetrate the thick skull of the species fundie neo-cromagnum, it might help your understanding of why you moved on from this crowd, about your evolving Christian belief.

They love to quote the OT to back up their hate. The Old was temporary, preparatory to the coming of the Messiah, and symbolically nailed to the cross along with Jesus. The covenant by God to a limited group was now universal to all mankind through Christ. To bind current believers to the laws of Moses would mean that Christ died for nothing! (Galatians 2-21). Can’t have that, can we?

Have fun with the fundies, they love quoting verses, learn a few, toss them back, and watch their heads explode.

[NAO]

21. I strive to love the Christian, whilst hating the Christianity

I attack dogmas and BS (belief systems), not people.

I try to keep this distinction in mind whenever I talk or write about Christianity - yet sometimes Christians are still offended.

They will tell me that unless I come to believe as they do, I will be eternally damned and will writhe in pain in the flames of hell forever.

Then when I tell them that I think their beliefs are not true, that their Bible is just a book, full of superstitions and errors, and that their religion is just made up, they say, "you have hurt my feelings".

Never seems to occur to them that telling me that I will suffer eternal torment unless I agree with them could possibly be taken as offensive.

But back to the original point - yes, Christians (i.e. people who think they know THE TRUTH) are much more harsh, judgmental, and critical of others than those lack faith but have an open mind.

[BushFungus]

38. I also think that

alot a Christians are poor debaters. They react emotionally, as you have pointed out, rather than having an honest, intelligent discussion. Why shouldn't it be debated? You say you have disagreements with the Bible - why shouldn't we talk about that without overreacting?

Hey listen, it's too big of a topic to cover here. But one book I read one time is "Evidence That Demands A Verdict" by a guy named Josh McDowell. This book is a SERIOUS, scholarly look at the Christian faith from a totally rational perspective.

[NAO]

45. The opposing arguments to Josh McDowell are in McKinsey's Encyclopedia

The Encyclopedia of Biblical Errancy
by C. Dennis McKinsey

provides a systematic, comprehnsive refutation of Josh McDowell and addresses other leading Christian apologists.

This book is *highly recommended* to anyone who wants to read both sides of the debate, and is the best {IMHO} contemporary statement of the case against Christianity.

The Encyclopedia of Biblical Errancy
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0879759267/qid=1120938615/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_ur_1/102-1702729-4317722?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

also highly recommended is the companion volume,

Biblical Errancy: A Reference Guide
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1573928089/ref=pd_sim_b_3/102-1702729-4317722?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance

and the timeless classic by American Founding Father Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason

Thomas Paine's The Age of Reason - Online
http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/thomas_paine/age_of_reason/index.shtml

[BushFungus]

68. Thank you

for the opposing viewpoint. I believe that people should check everything out first before making a decision on what they believe. Which is why I also believe that Creationism should be taught alongside Evolution in the classroom. But I won't get ino that here!
O8)

[NAO]

82. Critiques of Creationism vs. whether it should be taught along w/evolution

There are (at least) three completely different topics there.

There is an entire body of material that has been produced to discredit creationism. Most of the material is directed at the Biblical account as related in Genesis rather than the general notion that the world was created by a god or gods.

As to whether creationism should be taught in schools, and whether it should be taught alongside evolution...those are actually two separate questions.

If you are going to teach creationism in schools, which creation account are you going to teach? There are dozens if not hundreds. To teach only the one in Genesis would be to arbitrarily pick one religion over another.

Now if someone did produce a creationism curriculum that was impartial and representative of all the world's creation stories, that would be appropriate to teach in schools. But...that is not to say that it should be taught alongside evolution.

Creationism, if it is taught, should not be taught as an alternate to a scientific account, but as another (than scientific) way of understanding the origins of things. Even if some scientific facts can be marshalled to "go along" with the creationist account, that does not make it a scientific theory.

A scientific theory starts with empirical evidence, and speculates on that evidence, developes and changes the theory, and then tests for truth or falsification. Creationism starts with a handed-down religious notion, a teaching of revealed religion. It does not generally speculate on the teachings, nor try to develop them, but sticks to the account as received from revealed religion. And it certainly does not try to test for falsification. It always assumes truth and looks for facts that agree with the theory.

One of the best refutations of the Biblical Creation story is Robert G. Ingersoll's highly readable and entertaining lecture, "Some Mistakes of Moses".

Some Mistakes of Moses
http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/robert_ingersoll/some_mistakes_of_moses.html

excerpt

If the Pentateuch is inspired, the civilization of our day is
a mistake and crime. There should be no political liberty. Heresy
should be trodden out beneath the bigot's brutal feet. Husbands
should divorce their wives at will, and make the mothers of their
children houseless and weeping wanderers. Polygamy ought to be
practiced; women should become slaves; we should buy the sons and
daughters of the heathen and make them bondmen and bondwomen
forever. We should sell our own flesh and blood, and have the right
to kill our slaves. Men and women should be stoned to death for
laboring on the seventh day. "Mediums," such as have familiar
spirits, should be burned with fire. Every vestige of mental
liberty should be destroyed, and reason's holy torch extinguished
in the martyr's blood.

Is it not far better and wiser to say that the Pentateuch
while containing some good laws, some truths, some wise and useful
things is, after all, deformed and blackened by the savagery of its
time? Is it not far better and wiser to take the good and throw the
bad away?

Let us admit what we know to be true; that Moses was mistaken
about a thousand things; that the story of creation is not true;
that the Garden of Eden is a myth; that the serpent and the tree of
knowledge, and the fall of man are but fragments of old mythologies
lost and dead; that woman was not made out of a rib; that serpents
never had the power of speech; that the sons of God did not marry
the daughters of men; that the story of the flood and ark is not
exactly true; that the tower of Babel is a mistake; that the
confusion of tongues is a childish thing; that the origin of the
rainbow is a foolish fancy; that Methuselah did not live nine
hundred and sixty-nine years; that Enoch did not leave this world,
taking with him his flesh and bones; that the story of Sodom and
Gomorrah is somewhat improbable; that burning brimstone never fell
like rain; that Lot's wife was not changed into chloride of sodium;
that Jacob did not, in fact, put his hip out of joint wrestling
with God; that the history of Tamar might just as well have been
left out; that a belief in Pharaoh's dreams is not essential to
salvation; that it makes but little difference whether the rod of
Aaron was changed to a serpent or not; that of all the wonders said
to have been performed in Egypt, the greatest is, that anybody ever
believed the absurd account; that God did not torment the innocent
cattle on account of the sins of their owners; that he did not kill
the first born of the poor maid behind the mill because of
Pharaoh's crimes; that flies and frogs were not ministers of God's
wrath; that lice and locusts were not the executors of his will;
that seventy people did not, in two hundred and fifteen years,
increase to three million; that three priests could not eat six
hundred pigeons in a day; that gazing at a brass serpent could not
extract poison from the blood; that God did not go in partnership
with hornets; that he did not murder people simply because they
asked for something to eat; that he did not declare the making of
hair oil and ointment an offence to be punished with death; that he
did not miraculously preserve cloth and leather; that he was not
afraid of wild beasts; that he did not punish heresy with sword and
fire; that he was not jealous, revengeful, and unjust; that he knew
all about the sun, moon, and stars; that he did not threaten to
kill people for eating the fat of an ox; that he never told Aaron
to draw cuts to see which of two goats should be killed; that he
never objected to clothes made of woolen mixed with linen; that if
he objected to dwarfs, people with flat noses and too many fingers,
he ought not to have created such folks; that he did not demand
human sacrifices as set forth in the last chapter of Leviticus;
that he did not object to the raising of horses; that he never
commanded widows to spit in the faces of their brothers-in-law;
that several contradictory accounts of the same
transaction cannot all be true; that God did not talk to Abraham as one man talks to
another; that angels were not in the habit of walking about the
earth eating veal dressed with milk and butter, and making bargains
about the destruction of cities; that God never turned himself into
a flame of fire, and lived in a bush; that he never met Moses in a
hotel and tried to kill him; that it was absurd to perform miracles
to induce a king to act in a certain way and then harden his heart
so that he would refuse; that God was not kept from killing the
Jews by the fear that the Egyptians would laugh at him; that he did
not secretly bury a man and then allow the corpse to write an
account of the funeral; that he never believed the firmament to be
solid; that he knew slavery was and always would be a frightful
crime; that polygamy is but stench and filth; that the brave
soldier will always spare an unarmed foe; that only cruel cowards
slay the conquered and the helpless; that no language can describe
the murderer of a smiling babe; that God did not want the blood of
doves and lambs; that he did not love the smell of burning flesh;
that he did not want his altars daubed with blood; that he did not
pretend that the sins of a people could be transferred to a goat;
that he did not believe in witches, wizards, spooks, and devils;
that he did not test the virtue of woman with dirty water; that he
did not suppose that rabbits chewed the cud; that he never thought
there were any four footed birds; that he did not boast for several
hundred years that he had vanquished an Egyptian king; that a dry
stick did not bud, blossom, and bear almonds in one night; that
manna did not shrink and swell, so that each man could gather only
just one omer; that it was never wrong to "countenance the poor man
in his cause;" that God never told a people not to live in peace
with their neighbors; that he did not spend forty days with Moses
on Mount Sinai giving him patterns for making clothes, tongs,
basins, and snuffers; that maternity is not a sin; that physical
deformity is not a crime; that an atonement cannot be made for the
soul by shedding innocent blood; that killing a dove over running
water will not make its blood a medicine; that a god who demands
love knows nothing of the human heart; that one who frightens
savages with loud noises is unworthy the love of civilized men;
that one who destroys children on account of the sins of their
fathers is a monster; that an infinite god never threatened to give
people the itch; that he never sent wild beasts to devour babes;
that he never ordered the violation of maidens; that he never
regarded patriotism as a crime; that he never ordered the
destruction of unborn children; that he never opened the earth and
swallowed wives and babes because husbands and fathers had
displeased him; that he never demanded that men should kill their
sons and brothers, for the purpose of sanctifying themselves; that
we cannot please God by believing the improbable; that credulity is
not a virtue; that investigation is not a crime; that every mind
should be free; that all religious persecution is infamous in God,
as well as man; that without liberty, virtue is impossible; that
without freedom, even love cannot exist; that every man should be
allowed to think and to express his thoughts; that woman is the
equal of man; that children should be governed by love and reason;
that the family relation is sacred; that war is a hideous crime;
that all intolerance is born of ignorance and hate; that the
freedom of to-day is the hope of to-morrow; that the enlightened
present ought not to fall upon its knees and blindly worship the
barbaric past; and that every free, brave and enlightened man
should publicly declare that all the ignorant, infamous, heartless,
hideous things recorded in the "inspired" Pentateuch are not the
words of God, but simply "Some Mistakes of Moses."

full text at above link.

[bobbieinok]

109. isn't McDowell connected with Campus Crusade?

please don't take this wrong....I believe you said you've only recently come out of a completely fundamentalist group

I've been there.....and have recently taught where most students and faculty are fundamentalist Christians......many times they would point to scholarly proof of a statement and it would usually not be accepted as a scholarly proof by someone not within their world view

many people do not think McDowell's book meets scholarly requirements

an aside: I know this isn't the same thing.....but it used to drive me crazy when fundamentalists would prove the truth of what they were saying by quoting the Bible.......such proof is not accepted by non-believers, but they could never grasp that

[knitter4democracy]

52. I usually respond with

"So you've read the Book of Life? You actually sat down and read it? You know beyond the shadow of any doubt exactly what it says in there?"

If that doesn't stop them (usually does), ask them what the two greatest commandments are (good fundies and evangelicals can rattle them off). Ask who their neighbor is and remind them that Jesus followed that question with the Parable of the Good Samaritan--someone who was not a believer and who was hated by the Jews listening to the story. It often makes them think.

[oneold1-4u]

23. mumbo jumbo"..

Without MJ most churches and faiths would not grow and many would drop out of existence. People seem to love and cling to ritual and ritualistic expressions. Islamic beheading is one of these because when the faithful are in the demanded prayer position they are susceptible thousands for dying in the proper manner! When churches have to have multi million $ houses of worship with all the trimmings, they have already removed CHRIST. When that love is known by the individual, no church or ritual is necessary and they are recognizable by their lives and deeds!

[Booster]

25. Thank you for pointing this out. I'm one of those who don't know

what they are, but I sure don't believe in organized religion where all the church is interested in is money, and that's most of them, but I can honestly say I have NEVER tried to persuade anyone from giving up their faith or changing their religion because I think it's stupid. I believe in live and let live, and if you're happy in your religion/beliefs, that's great, but why in the Hell do I have to join?

[BushFungus]

26. Funny How That Works, Ain't It?

I am an evangelical Christian and I too have been mocked and ridiculed by other Christians. All because I did not bow down to their god George W. Bush. This was most evident on the Rapture Ready board (http://rr-bb.com).

On this same board, one Catholic poster had a simple question regarding how Mary should be approached within the religion. The posts that followed were terrible, bashing the poor poster, saying he worshipped Mary, and putting up pics of the pope "worshipping" Mary, etc.

Now admittedly I disagree with the Catholic Church's stance that Mary is Co-redeemer with Jesus. But sheesh, can we be civil about it!!

I think it's sad. We all disagree with something or another. Why some Christians can't sit down and have a decent conversation with each other - even debate - is way beyond me.

[bleedingheart]

31. the fundamentalist call in radio program here in Pittsburgh is so sad

christians call in to discuss how unchristian the catholics and protestants (who disagree with them or have differing dogma)...the program is filled with..."who I hate today"..."who we need to hate tomorrow"...it is hard for me to imagine Jesus agreeing with any of it..

[Bluerthanblue]

54. you hit my 'buzzer'

Jesus wouldn't have agreed with ANY of this (scuse me) SHIT-

Faith, and Belief are all that matters in reality- and that is something very personal, and not necessiarily 'organized' or ever really able to be completely agreed upon by 'all' people of any one 'faith'

Religion is simply a group of people who come together for a collective 'meeting'- not necessiarly of the heart, or mind or soul, and often not for betterment of anyone.

We 'live' our 'faith' every day- our words and deeds speak our hearts in the long run- when we 'talk' the religious lingo, and live like selfish, hatefilled, arrogant un caring people, we speak our hearts with our actions, and expose our lies with our words-

The ACTIONS of Jesus speak louder than his words- a friend to the friendless, a sharer of all he had and then some, doing good, expecting nothing in return, seeking to better the lives of those considered to be 'untouchable' returning kindness in the face of cruelty, and weeping with those who were weeping, willing to be 'the least' among men- not needing a 'throne' and jewels and people to 'fall at his feet' but rather lifting up those who were down, and telling those who thought themselves 'above' everyone else, to look again- and warning them that they might be decieving themselves, but no one else-

i love Jesus' life- and His gift- i mourn that so many who claim his name, deny that with their lives, and actions.

He never FORCED himself on anyone- His message was- tell people the GOOD NEWS- that there IS hope- and that this world is not 'the whole' enchaladia.
If someone doesn't want to believe that, that is their business, not anyone elses- He never said to beat people into submission-

that was the governmental rulers job-

and they're still at it. Faith in 'God' shouldn't imitate what governmental politicans do- there should be no connection between the two, in America at least.

(i'm an EX fundie- worse than an EX smoker- sorry to come on so strong)

[fricasseed_gourmet_rat]

29. I am Catholic too

I have had other Christians call me a "vampire." No joke.

I have also had many liberals tell me that I'm in a brainwashing cult. That upsets me. A lot.

[bumblebee1]

135. Your "vampire" comment reminds me of my then 11 yr old

nephew. While at my younger sister's wedding, he received communion with wine. My brother-in-law was kidding him about being a vampire. While outside the church after the ceremony, my nephew asked his mother (my older sister) if he was a vampire just because he took the body and blood of Jesus during communion. My sister told him "No." The next question out of his mouth was: "Did Christ have AIDS? Needless to say, my brother-in-law, husband and I had a great laugh over that.

Incidentally, this same nephew is 29 yrs old. He'll be getting married next Saturday (7/16).

[Sapphire Blue]

32. Thoughts on religion... from Gandhi

"I believe in the fundamental truth of all great religions of the world. I believe that they are all God-given and I believe that they were necessary for the people to whom these religions were revealed. And I believe that if only we could all of us read the scriptures of the different faiths from the standpoints of the followers of these faiths, we should find that they were at bottom all one and were all helpful to one another."

- mahatma gandhi


"Religions are different roads converging upon the same point.

What does it matter that we take different roads
so long as we reach the same goal."

- mahatma gandhi


http://www.worldprayers.org/

[Windy]

36. Profound and so true.

Too bad all religious leaders didn't think this way.

[lumpy]

44. Investigate

by studying all religions. Draw your own conclusions; then you can create a church in your heart and find spiritual contentment.

[Bluerthanblue]

65. i think the

'best' ones have-

like MLKjr. like many of the Native American Elders,- like i believe Jesus truly intended (judging his LIFE, not the words of others about what 'he wanted')- like many of those who aren't mentioned, because theirs was a message of 'inclusion' rather than 'exclusion' or 'chosen as being more worthy' than others.

Gandhi was so wise in so many ways-

peace

[Sapphire Blue]

79. You can be a leader... we can each be leaders... rather than followers.

[BushFungus]

40. Yeah but...

but only one rose from the grave - Jesus.

I don't believe in the idea that all religions are the same. They are all different, and unique. I don't believe they all converge on the same path. What path? And at what point to they converge? And what does that even mean anyways?

As a Christian, I believe that Christianity is distinct for several reasons. First, it is called a "world religion" but it really is about faith in Jesus Christ. In other words, whether you go to church or not, whether you pray to Mecca or not, it doesn't matter. You are still saved through faith in Jesus Christ.

Second, Christianity is the only faith that tells you you don't have to work your way to salvation. All others do. They tell you to be good, do good deeds, etc. They tell you that suffering in your life is a result of the law of karma. But none have the GUARANTEE that you will attain salvation. Christianity offers that guarantee, not through your behavior (works), but simply by acknowledging your sin and placing your faith in Jesus Christ.

This is simply what I believe because I didn't want to take the chance that God was right and I was wrong.

[lumpy]

47. How can you live with fear in your

heart that you will not get to 'heaven' or that 'God was right and I was wrong' if you fail to follow the tenets of a church? You believe that Jesus was God incarnate, right. What if the New Testament(written by men interpreting Jesus' mission) was not written by God? Jesus' message was love of fellow man, life everlasting, and forgiveness of sins. His work was to allay fear of a vengefull God. Jesus didn't fear his God.

[BushFungus]

62. Well let me try to answer that

as best I can. It all boils down to one thing: FAITH. Everyone has faith of some kind. I have faith my TV will turn on when I press the remote. You have faith that when you hit a key on your keyboard, a letter will appear on the screen.

I could debate the accuracy and inerrancy of Scripture here, but that's WAY too theological. Yep - I believe that Jesus was incarnate. And yes, I also believe that Jesus' mission on this earth was love of fellow man, life everlasting, and forgiveness of sins.

I'm not sure I completely understand your premise regarding the role of fear. I don't believe you have to follow any tenants of any particular church to be "saved." But I can tell you that Christianity teaches that you WILL FOR CERTAIN go to heaven simply by receiving Christ into your heart. There is no fear there!! Some argue that this is arrogant, or that it's too easy. But this is just core Christianity. It is also known as the irresistable grace of God. And it really is available to everyone who wants it.

Some argue that hey, if it's all about faith, then you don't have to be nice anymore, and you still get to heaven. Not so fast. A true heart change will automatically convict a person of their behavior. Also, the Bible still says that we have to treat people equally, and that faith without works (good deeds and good behavior) is dead.

[Tommymac]

72. Wow. That is simply too open to abuse.

If that is the way Christianity works, then I can understand all the evil in the world today.

Part of our makeup is biological - human sentient animals...we have passions, and flaws, and some of us are natural killers...add a dose of easy forgiveness and a guarenteed ticket to paradise to that and you will have a recipe for unrestrained violence from more than a few.

Sorry, if this is the core mesage of Christianity as taught in organized religion, I'll pass on that coarse. Pass the salt please. :)

[Bluerthanblue]

78. i have a little

different approach- though i DO believe that fogiveness is 'a given'-

Jesus' words were the 'essence' of the Golden Rule- do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

Now, if we practiced that EVEN in the face of others who 'don't'- we can know, that we are being 'true' to ourselves- and we are NOT making anything worse- COMPASSION that is the ultimate key- walking two moons in anothers moccasins..... 'how would you feel if she did that to you?' all those true-isms and SADLY they are NOT being taught in most organized religions- and that is exactly why we step all over each other trying to 'get attention' or 'be first' 'do what we have to to get what we think we want'-

Knowing that you 'have won'- should make the game less competitive- SHOULD make the need to crush your competition, or trip up your fellow players out of 'self-interest' unnecessiary-

People usually are cruel, controlling, mean, violent and selfish, NOT because they were created that way, but because they have never felt, or been shown genuine, unconditional love, and acceptance.

Knowing you don't have to 'measure up to anyones standards' doesn't make you mean, i gives you the freedom to say to others, you are free to be just as you are- you don't have to 'join' me to make 'me' ok- i already AM ok- and so are you, so lets stop trying to control, and be-little each other.

idealistic? maybe- bleeding heart liberal? yup- but a heart that bleeds, is a heart that has not been turned to stone.

[Tommymac]

80. Don't get me wrong...

I agree in principle with "The Golden Rule" and much of Jesus's teachings. do unto other's etc.

But I find that a system that allows one to gain 'Heavenly Redemption" merely by invoking it one's self too open to abuse.

I am not so idealistic as to believe that there are not truly evil people out there. Several are in charge of our Country right now. And this blanket redemption gives them laisse faire in their own twisted minds to do whatever they want - salvation is merely a 'testimony' away....

I don't begrudge anyone their Faith - I do question organized religion when it promotes practices that allow unbalanced people to easily justify or commit violent acts in the name of that religion.
Better to preach that forgiveness is only achieved through practicing truly benevolent acts IMHO....

Alas, I am old and cynical. And I am agnostic, I do believe that there is some higher power out there....I just don't see how we can ever know or understand it...and until you prove to me with concrete fact that there is an afterlife I'll continue to live like this is the only one I have and try and practice the Golden rule et al here and now.

[Bluerthanblue]

86. Tommymac

i don't think 'truly evil' people believe they ARE 'accepted' or 'acceptable' most especially those who equate 'religion' and 'their rules'-

i'll never be able to 'prove' what my 'faith' is, because it wouldn't be 'faith', it would be 'fact'.
And it's TOTALLY fine with me, that you don't share my perspective- i don't think that matters one bit- that you choose to live the golden rule says you know, you are already loved, and accepted. You don't need to bully, or control others, to 'feel' ok- and in whatever 'beyond' there is, i look forward to getting to know you personally- because i DO believe you'll be there- and it will be good.

Hope- Faith and Love people who need them the most, call it 'wussie'or idealistic mumbo jumbo- but as Mother Teresa said,

"The hunger for love is much more difficult to remove than the hunger for bread."
"Make us worthy, Lord, to serve those people throughout the world
who live and die in poverty and hunger.
Give them through our hands, this day, their daily bread,
and by our understanding love,give them peace and joy."

You don't have to 'invoke redemption' Tommymac, you already have it.

[Tommymac]

101. As long as you promise to buy the first round...

I'll be glad to sit and shoot the bull with you wherever. ;)

Thanks for the kind words...

I just want to clarify I don't begrudge anyone their faith...I too do have faith, I just can't quantify it. I am not against Christianity, or Islam, or Buddhism, or Zorasterism or any religious philosophy ... some of my best friends are Christians! lol

Live and let live...perhaps I am a deist. I'll let you know in another 25 years or so....

My main point was I am truly puzzled by the post at the start of this thread - that all it takes is for one to say they have accepted Jesus and all will be forgiven...in my life's experience the less scrupulous among us can and do use that as a permission slip to practice uncharitable acts...knowing all will be well when the time comes. I have long known that practice intellectually; it wasn't until I read the poster's thoughts that I had an emotioanal epiphany and realized it's full meaning and significance.

I guess it's the catholic upbringing I had...pergatory, no forgiveness of sin without due penance, etc ...although I have left the organized part of that faith behind me, I guess it hasn't all left me.

[Bluerthanblue]

113. sounds good to me-

and we're more in agreement than either of us would think i believe-
:toast:

[More Than A Feeling]

150. Christianity knows that too

It's otherwise known as the doctrine of original sin. The idea is (as far as I have learned) that we are all sinners, Christian or not, and supposed to be humble before God rather than being proud. That pride leads to the idolatry that comes of replacing God with one's nation or race or religion/church. That idolatry is where the violence comes in. Coercion is not the way, because coerced faith, whether by threats of violence or discrimination, or through coopting the government, is worthless. Each individual has a choice to make, and noone else can make it for them. Regardless, God is the creator of all men and women, and thus everyone is equal in God's sight, and it is the duty of Christians to put this into action.

Anyway, that is what I understand at this point in my path, but I am still learning, and questioning, and doubting, and I could be wrong.

[lumpy]

73. You said that

...you "didn't want to take a chance that God was right and I was wrong". Is that fear or are you just hedging your bets ? I am not demeaning you here, just expressing my opinion. Take care.

[knitter4democracy]

58. Then why does St. James say that faith without works is dead?

If you really read Church history, you'll see that it's never been comfortable with saying that everything's guaranteed. If it's guaranteed if you just believe, then why pray? Why do anything to help the least of these? Why not just sit at the communion table and make sure that you never stop believing?

I am a Christian as well, so please don't take this as an attack. I just want you to work on it through prayer. That guarantee is preached from the pulpits (trust me, heard it many, many times), but I always found it more than a little ironic that the same people were going forward just to make sure, just to pray one more time because they felt guilty for some reason or questioned.

It is human to question. We are not God, so how do we really know that our names are in the Book of Life? We can believe, but we need to do what we can to be as Christ-like as possible and never stop working on our faith.

[BushFungus]

67. I agree

with what you are saying for the most part. The Bible does say faith without works is dead. But I do firmly believe at the same time that the guarantee of eternal life by belief in Jesus is what defines Christianity and separates it out from the other religions. Without that core truth, Christianity would be just like any other religion - working your way to salvation rather than accepting the grace of God through Jesus Christ.

As a Christian, I pray for God to help me in my life; to make decisions; to get me out of the stinkin' rut I'm in; to make me a gentler, better, and more caring person. As a Christian, I try to help the less fortunate because that's what God tells me to do. So I do not view the concept of salvation through faith as contradictory to what Scripture says.

This debate of works vs. faith has really gone on since the church began.
O8)

[knitter4democracy]

71. The Church has dealt with it for a long time, yes.

That was one of the reasons why I switched to the Eastern Orthodox Church. They focus their attention on how we can all personally be more like Christ and leave many of the big theological questions up to God, simply calling it all mystery.

After too many years in an evangelical church in which everyone wanted everything boiled down to a soundbite, regardless of actual life issues, it was a breath of fresh air.

[Bluerthanblue]

81. hey Knitter-

i understand, and strugled the same as you- but you know what i discovered? if we are FREE from having to 'measure up'- if it really IS a 'given'- that we are 'acceptable'- then what a HUGE reason to rejoice- and when we are rejoicing, we don't have to 'worry about ourselves' anymore- we can take our 'eyes' off of "i" and share without any reason to, other than the overflow of our abundance (even if in the 'worlds' eyes that abundance is meager, and pitiful).
Believeing we already 'measure up' means we can focus on helping others see that they TOO already measure up- and spreading the love we've been given, because we can't possibly hold it all in.
it means we don't have to try and 'bend' others into pretzels so that they 'fit' some set of foolish 'rules'- or 'standards' or that they have to 'change' to be 'acceptable'- it takes all the EVIL 'competition' out of it- does that leave us 'unmotivated'? well, it might make some folks feel that way for awhile, but that gets pretty boring, and doing things that are outrageously kind- or good- or generous, expecting nothing at all in return is such a wonderful experience- the tiniest act of kindness, holding the door for another, complimenting a stranger on the grace with which they handle a difficult situation with someone else- Smiling at a frazzled mom in the grocerery store, and reaching to get that item while telling her tired 5yr old, "I bet your really good at helping your mom do this hard work of shopping"- sounds simple- stupid, trite perhaps, but having been on both ends of all these things, i can say, i'm humbled and changed every time i see love in action- and that doesn't come from 'feeling like i have to'- but feeling so grateful that i KNOW i'm 'ok' regardless of what the 'world might say or think'-

and if eternity is FULL and hell is empty, what a wonderful thing that will be- because, if i truly love my 'neighbor' as i love myself, then i'd never want my neighbor to be in hell- even if that neighbor was GW Bush, OBL Saddam Hussien or any other person..... because they will finally have what they 'need' and not need to hurt others to find what will bring them peace...

wow, i'm typing and i can't shut up....

blu

[knitter4democracy]

145. Thanks for the smile this morning.

I really get what you're saying, and that's cool.

The Orthodox Church would agree with much of what you're saying, actually. It's not so much worrying about measuring up as keeping humble and not presuming to know God so well as to know exactly what He will do. It's more about loving our neighbors and focusing on love than it is on judgement of any kind. We take a lot of stuff as mystery, and I personally find that very freeing.

I like that I am to pray constantly for mercy, as it reminds me that I'm imperfect and still need to keep working on the walk. I like that I am to go to confession regularly and get prayed over (as well as some great advice); I need that catharsis. I need the liturgy reminding me that I am part of a whole host worshipping God and being in awe of His love, mercy, and peace.

It's not for everyone, though. If your faith makes you whole, then that is what you need. Blessings of love and peace.

[Bluerthanblue]

151. no, Thank YOu... i

needed to 'see' your kind words today and i (in re-reading my post) don't mean to be-little, or in ANY way imply that your 'traditions'- are anything to reject, or feel anything but ok about-
We ALL have our 'traditions'- and the familiar comfort they bring make them all the more helpful-

i am in no wasy saying i'm perfect- i'm so very NOT perfect- the knowledge that i'm loved 'despite' my imperfections, is what gives me the freedom and in some twisted way maybe the 'drive'? to be better? (tell me i CAN'T 'do something' and boy, it's the ONLY thing i want to do- even if it is eating beets- (i HATE beets) guess i'm a trouble maker from the get go- but i'm loved anyway- and that is AWESOME to me- i wish i could share that knowledge, and what better way than by spreading the love i've been shown????-

blessings of love peace and comfort back at you- abundantly-

thank YOU for the smile- i really needed one today- and i'll try and spread it around -
blu (em)

(Did you ever hear that song done by Caroline Arrends about 'reaching?'
it speaks my life in lots of ways-)

[knitter4democracy]

152. I hear ya on the beets. :)

Old family story, not exactly for public sharing, but long story short, I just can't eat them. I just can't.

I haven't heard that song and will try to find it. Thanks for the tip.

If we all can just give each other the space we all need to grow in our own different ways, things would be a lot better. It's that judgemental spirit (a short-lived, false high) that causes so many problems. I need to work on that myself, especially when I read the latest Republican crap.

Peace to you today. :hug:

[Sapphire Blue]

70. And Jesus said...

"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'

"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

- Matthew 25:34-36


What Path? The path to God / Allah / Jehovah / YHWH / the Creator / Waheguru / the One.

'UH-OH - Some Observations From Both Sides of the Refrigerator Door', a book by Robert Fulghum, speaks to this issue using an analogy between water & God. Fulghum tells of a discussion with an Indian professor of hydrology... due to copyright laws, I probably shouldn't post directly from the book. In essence, the point is, even though water comes in different forms, in different vessels, has different names in different languages, etc., it is still water..... and so it is with God.

Peace.

[JohnnyBoots]

37. Religion is like the NFL

Some teams hate each other, some teams fans hate each other,some teams bend the rules- some don't, some teams are more popular and powerfull than others -but at the end of the day everyone is still playing football.

[me b zola]

41. ...and...

Some teams pay off the ref(s);)

[greendog]

64. You're wrong...

...Religion and the NFL are VERY different.

You can prove Elway's existence. Not so with any of their Gods.

[Bluerthanblue]

69. no, i don't think you

get the point- RELIGION is not 'god'- (though many people choose to confuse the two)
One definition of religion is:
" A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion."

i've known many 'religious' football fanatics- those who make politics, music, work, hobbies, motorcycles, etc. their "religion"- and most have very 'tangible' proof that their object of devotion exists-

Faith, now- that's another ball of wax- it is something intangible- it is the evidence of things NOT seen- otherwise, it would not be 'faith' it would be FACT.

But there is a clear distinction between religion and faith-

[JohnnyBoots]

83. Thanks for cleaning that up

[greendog]

90. Theistic religion is based on faith...

...faith in a creator God who actively rules over his creation. Theists believe they can have a "personal" relationship with their God.

To me, the interesting thing about this type of God is that he is always silent. The Bible was written by men, the Bible was edited and rewritten by men, the apostles creed was written by men...each of the 1000 different Christian "faith groups" in the United States is presided over by men. Theology is entirely the work of men.

It's natural that all these Christians feel threatened by each other. The only way any of this could be settled would be the active, unambiguous participation of their "ruler" God.

Now, anyone who thinks about it knows it ain't gonna happen. If the last 2000 years has shown us anything, it's that the "silent God" is very reliable.

You or I, or anyone else could start a new theistic religion tomorrow and, based on observable phenomenon, count on the fact that the "silent God" will remain silent. No matter how bizarre your creed, you know that this God won't stop you.

This is why there's such variety in the Christian faith...from the Quakers to the Ku Klux Klan...everyone knows that it's "made up". So, as long as you can get away with making up a religion, why not make one up (or join one) that supports your point of view.

If you're a decent gentle type you invent a "faith" like Quakerism, if you're a screaming bigot you start up something like the Klan. Either way, you can count on the silent God.

Same goes for existing religions. Anyone knows they can switch religions...go from one "absolute truth" to another and God won't say anything...why?...because we know the "absolute truth" is "made up". American Catholics feel comfortable disagreeing with their "infallible" Pope...why?...because they know their "faith" is "made up".

This is the dirty secret of "faith". It's made up....and everyone knows it. Good people make up a good faith. Bad people make up an ugly faith.

I suppose it's too much to hope for, but wouldn't it be nice if the good people admitted that their faith was made up...that all faith is made up? That God hasn't endorsed any of it? That we're all just doing the best we can?

Think the difference it could make if we could just start talking about the obvious. It's made up.

[Bluerthanblue]

100. no, i don't

think it would be 'good' to say that 'faith' is 'made' up-

because it would mean that anything that could NOT be PROVEN- didn't exist-

Could Columbus have not found that indeed the earth WAS NOT flat without faith?

Copernicus lived only 500yrs ago, and he believed (without proof) that the earth not only did NOT stand still, but that it revolved once a day, and that the sun did not revolve around the earth, but the other way around- He couldn't 'prove' what he believed, and didn't dare tell the 'church' of his beliefs- But 2 other men adopted his views, and one was burned at the stake for his suggestion, the other Galleio was forced to 'renounce' his belief, and was sentenced to house arrest for life-
this was in 1600.... think about that....when the pilgrims were travelling to the Nederlands, before travelling to 'the new world' it was still accepted belief that the earth was the center of the universe-

Hope, Faith, speculation about what MIGHT be the 'cause of life' or 'the destination' of us all may never be proven, but hope, faith, questioning that which we cannot prove MUST go on, or we will never learn, or grow, or have reason to change, experiment, look towards a future, or seek out mysteries.

i would NEVER shove my faith down your throat- nor do i believe that we can FORCE others to 'choose' what we (not me) call 'freedom' or 'democracy'- but please don't deprive me, of the freedom to believe that although i cannot offer proof of my 'belief' i have every right to hold them, and share them, without ridicule or condemnation.

i HATE (yes that is the best way to describe my emotion) the tendency of many religious people especially today- especially in the US to hold their 'faith' as the ONLY way- and as the unequivocal TRUTH and attempt to hide so much hurt, cruelty, greed, and fear behind the label "God"-

i hold my Faith, you can hold your 'facts'- and that's fine with me-
without hope i'd just go on ahead and off myself- without facts you can't embrace something that seems 'illogical'- we are both doing what we feel is 'right' and that is how it SHOULD be.

[greendog]

105. Let's try it this way...

...back in the 2nd century, there was a non-orthodox group of Christians. Today we refer to them as Gnostics...or "Thomas" Christians (they made use of the Gospel of Thomas).

One of their prominent leaders was the Egyptian poet Valentinus. Valentinus was a charismatic fellow, and a priest in the orthodox church. He had his own school of theology in Rome. He was a candidate for Bishop of Rome (Pope) but was either narrowly defeated or declined the position, no one knows which.

Valentinus taught that God was unfathomable, impossible for the human mind to understand. Nonetheless, he thought it useful to construct a myth to help ourselves understand God. It was understood that it was just an inspired myth, an artistic creation. It was also understood that others would create their own myths based on their personal needs.

There's a saying in the Gospel of Thomas that (I'm not quoting exactly) God will appear to a man as man, to a woman as woman, and to a child as a child. That you will find an understanding of God, not based on what others tell you, but based on who YOU are.

That's what I mean when I say "made up". I'm not asking anyone to give up their beliefs...just acknowledge that it's a personal myth or an artistic rendering of the unfathomable.

BTW, I don't in any way think that the artistic creation of a myth to understand or honor God is a bad thing. The "bad" thing is the insistence that a particular person or group's myth should be respected as the "truth" by the rest of us.

[BushFungus]

110. Yeah but

where does human intelligence have its source? Where did our intelligence come from? We are the only species on earth with this high level of intelligence. We are separated from the mammals because of our forward-thinking (planning for the future).

The idea that our intelligence came from nothing is, to me, a profound leap of faith.

[Bluerthanblue]

111. i can't

argue with that-

and don't need you to accept my 'understanding' as yours-
thanks for clarifing-

and i also have read Thomas' gospel-

i'd agree that God is 'unfathomable'-
but not 'nonexistant'-
or seen as the same, through all eyes-
but that is 'my' view, and you shouldn't be forced to take it on as yours, so we 'agree' on the 'meat' of the matter-
Peace-
blu

[Tommymac]

136. For a Christian..

you sure sound almost agnostic!!! ;)

Maybe we do have more in common than it appears...thanks for your insights. And keep the Faith!

[eridani]

133. Bone to pick about Columbus

Scholarly thought in Europe (regardless of whatever popular superstitions were around) NEVER accepted the notion of a flat earth. The bone of contention between Columbus and a number of scholars was exactly how big the spherical earth was. Scholars questioning his plan favored the traditional calculated circumference of 25,000 miles, but Columbus favored a newer (and wrong) value of 10,000 miles. The scholars quite justifiably thought that he could never do 25,000 miles with then-current shipbuilding technology, but Columbus lucked out--there was a big chunk of land in between Europe and his presumed final destination.

[Yellow_Dog]

42. More blind hate..

spews from the pulpit than from any other platform.

[batsauce]

92. I think Aljazeera (the jihad network) spews more hate.

or maybe Fox.

sometimes I get them confused.

But if you want gob's o' hate, go the people who mass produce it.
The guys in the pulpit are doing piece-work

[manic expression]

102. Well, al Jazeera is WAY more balanced than FOX

It has coverage of events that almost no other source will even touch. It is not opinionated, but it does come from a different perspective (as in the people who are being invaded), although it is presented in a valid and truthful way.

Most of the time, calls of dishonesty arouses when al Jazeera reports the truth in a fair way, but the truth is not palpable to ignorant Americans.

Just some clarification :hi:

[batsauce]

118. Not everyone appreciates the vile hatred...

But I guess Fox and Al Jazeera have their own fans.

http://www.workingforchange.com/article.cfm?ItemID=13296

Al-Jazeera shamelessly plays to the nastiest corner on the Arab street, offering a frighteningly familiar — and toxic — mix of virulent anti-Americanism and unrelenting anti-Semitism. It's a brew that breeds not only simmering resentment but also the suicidal passions of misguided Palestinians — and stokes them to the boiling point.

[manic expression]

126. Oh please

When you say anti-American, you mean anti-illegal occupation; when you say anti-Semitic, you mean anti-Israeli policies. Looking at the truth and the truth only will lead any person to the same sentiments.

Al Jazeera has been more reliable than most US sources, especially regarding the US occupation, as they are some of the only journalists who will actually report what is happening on the ground and show it to their audiences (same thing with the Israeli occupation).

Actually read what they have to say, and then formulate an opinion:
http://english.aljazeera.net/HomePage

[batsauce]

137. That was a qoute, not my words. Click on the link

for a more realistic appraisal of these quite abhorrent folks.

I suppose you want me to go to the Fox website and see how much they think of themselves also? I need to walk in dogshit to know it smells.

[manic expression]

147. I did click on the link

and I read that part of the article, and I must disagree with it.

Please, if you want to form an opinion about a source, read what they actually say. I have seen more than enough of FOX to determine how abysmal they are. If you don't want to do that, then try to get other opinions on al Jazeera besides one pretty questionable article.

[batsauce]

93. I think Aljazeera (the jihad network) spews more hate.

or maybe Fox.

sometimes I get them confused.

But if you want gob's o' hate, go the people who mass produce it.
The guys in the pulpit are doing piece-work

[knitter4democracy]

46. Me too.

My husband and I converted to Eastern Orthodox Christianity after we got married. We both had been Nazarenes (a conservative evangelical church), and let's just say it didn't go over that well with the in-laws. :eyes:

Why are we Christians so quick to judge when Jesus himself told us not to?

[Logansquare]

51. I'm an ex-Protestant agnostic; I went to my nieces' 1st Holy Communions

and felt honored to be included, and happy for them on their special day. I can't imagine the kind of fear that these fundies are fed in place of Christ's message of peace.

[Susang]

53. I was raised Catholic

A woman I know believes I am doomed to hell because of it, no questions asked. Doesn't matter what kind of person I am, just that I was born a Catholic.

I have to admit that I don't think I will ever understand that kind of thinking, no matter how hard I try.

[The Jacobin]

57. Prayer

Lots and lots of prayer helps all the bitterness wash over you without affecting you.

[knitter4democracy]

60. Want to blow her mind?

Ask her if Mother Teresa is in hell. It's fun to watch the fireworks after that. I used to do it at college all the time. :evilgrin:

Many try to say that she wasn't really Catholic. *snort* Yes, they really do, and that one's fun to refute. It's hard for them to get their head around. Once they're a bit stunned, then ask them where their church came from and how it could possibly know the faith if not for the Catholic Church keeping it alive in the West.

Sorry if I stepped in this and shouldn't have. I've just always had fun debating those crazies--and I went to an evangelical college. :eyes:

[Susang]

108. I don't bother debating

It's someone I'm forced to be in close contact with, so I try my best to get along. If it gets to be too much, I get up and leave the room. Seems to work best for all concerned. Challenging her just seems to give her ammunition.

[knitter4democracy]

144. That's true.

My best friend from growing up is Catholic, and she used to do the same thing in high school if someone got too nasty about it. It worked for her. Of course, that's when I usually would step in and start challenging them, angry at how they'd treated my friend.

What really gets me is that we're not supposed to judge anyone. The Gospels are very clear on that, and even St. Paul says we're supposed to tread very, very lightly when dealing with other Christians.

[stevedeshazer]

66. I love you

I'm an atheist. Believe what you will. It's your right, which I will help you fight for.

Peace and good life to you.

[YOY]

74. As a Left-Wing Catholic I like to

tell the more sheeplike followers (RW) of the Faith about some of the "wonderful" experiences I've had with being insulted by southern evangelists, hard-core baptists, and the Jack Chick breed of born-again-idiot. (Apparently, some of us got it right the first time we were born...sheesh!) I've never heard a Catholic bash their faith...amazing how unChristian they can be.

On a sad note I have also had my faith bashed by several Mormons. I haven't met too many liberal Mormons...I would very much like to so that I can fight the whitebread-Utahite RWer picture in my head.

I suppose though my favaorite comeback is simply to be Christian by action instead of the use of angry mispoken words.

[NoSheep]

76. I don't hate you.

:pals:

[johnaries]

77. Although I am no longer Christian, I love TRUE Christians.

Those who practice Christ's teachings of love, acceptance, forgiveness, and charity.

I hate hyopocrites, however.

[batsauce]

84. sadly, you will find a lot of this anti-Christian bias here at DU

I don't know why so many DU'ers hate so much about what they know so little.

Just because Dobson calls himself a Christian is NOT a good reason to villify a faith that has been responsible for Schools, Hospitals, and care for the poor over the centuries.


ESPECIALLY that denomination known as Catholics.

[Sapphire Blue]

87. Not from what I've seen & read here on DU.

I continually witness tolerance for one another's beliefs here on DU.

The bias to which you may be referring might be that which is directed against the NON-Christian RW... those who call themselves 'Christian', while acting in direct opposition to Jesus' teachings.

[batsauce]

91. I disagree. Prejudice against any group is wrong.

For instance, it is not OK to hate all atheists because some athiests vote Pug.

In fact, it is not OK to hate all atheists, regardless of how they vote, or even if they don't measure up to the teachings of Jesus.

[Sapphire Blue]

94. Why are you bringing hatred into this? Nowhere did I use the term 'hatred'

In my comment, I was referring to the actions committed by those calling themselves 'Christians', which are directly opposed to Jesus' teachings. I repeated your word, 'bias', when, perhaps, using the terminology 'speaking out against' would have been more appropriate. I regret using your terminology.

And yes, prejudice is wrong... as is sterotyping.

Peace

[batsauce]

96. bias is just a code-word for hatred. They are wrong.

[Sapphire Blue]

98. Bias was your terminology; my mistake using your inappropriate terminology

[batsauce]

99. I'm glad we agree then.

Reminds me of that old saying:

The US and England are two countries separated by a common language.

I think it is wrong to group an entire group of people and speak against that group, it shows violent disrespect for the individuality of the humans involved.

I doubt you do this sort of thing, but I think what we speak just about always leads to what we do. Hitler was speaking against Jews long before he was killing them.

[Sapphire Blue]

103. Now you're bringing Hitler into this?

"Hitler was speaking against Jews long before he was killing them."... reminds me of the RW speaking out against gays, Muslims, women, the poor, and all minorities. Hmmm.

On the other hand, the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.'s speaking out brought about great social change and corrected horrible injustices of years past. I stand with Dr. King.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

May God bless you...

May God bless you with discomfort at easy answers, half truths, superficial relationships, so that you will live deep within your heart.

May God bless you with anger at injustice, oppression and exploitation of people so that you will work for justice, equality and peace.

May God bless you with tears to shed for those who suffer from pain, rejection, starvation and war, so that you will reach out your hand to comfort them and change their pain into joy.

And may God bless you with the foolishness to think that you can make a difference in the world, so that you will do the things which others tell you cannot be done.

http://www.inspirationpeak.com/prayers.html

[batsauce]

114. Yes. Hitler was biased/prejudiced and many suffered...

just as many Muslims, women, the poor, and all minorities have suffered because of prejudice.

I think that Dr. King, of all men, would agree with you and me that prejudice is wrong, and it destroys nations.

[Sapphire Blue]

122. Hitler inflicted horrors upon the masses... "biased/prejudiced" doesn't

even begin to describe his evil... done in the name of God :sarcasm: .

"I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator." - Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, p. 46

"This human world of ours would be inconceivable without the practical existence of a religious belief." - Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, pp.152

I believe today that I am acting in the sense of the Almighty Creator. By warding off the Jews, I am fighting for the Lord's work.
- Adolf Hitler, Reichstag Speech, 1936

One of the most frightening quote from one of Hitler's Tischgespräche:

"If there is a God, then he gives us not only life but also consciousness and awareness. If I live my life according to my God-given insights, then I cannot go wrong, and even if I do, I know I have acted in good faith."

http://liberalslikechrist.org/Catholic/HitlersFaith.html

The above language sounds eerily familiar... from today's 'Christian' Right-Wing extremists... some of whom hold political office... including the one who sits in the Oval Office.

RW extremists in this country, such as Dobson, Falwell, Robertson, Frist, DeLay, et al, target gays, Muslims, the poor, women, immigrants, minorities, with much the same kind of evil, and also in the name of God :sarcasm: ... it goes far beyond bias/prejudice.

I wouldn't presume to speak for Dr. King... only myself... when I say that that kind of evil destroys humanity.

And as long as I breathe, I will speak out.

[Sapphire Blue]

104. delete... posted twice

[txindy]

116. Ah, the fundies

Those who believe that Jesus was a hate-filled bigot, just like themselves.

No fundies on DU, thank goodness. Unless they're lost. Or in disguise.

I agree with you, SB. DU is a very tolerant place.

[InfoMinister]

119. There Was A Thread About Evolution and Creationism The Other Day

in which several people put down religion in general calling anyone who has a belief in God being wilfully ignorant. It really bothered me considering I'm a Christian. Just because some Republicans are using religion for votes doesn't mean you should put down everyone who's religious. There have been a lot of Democrats and progressives that have believed in God and those people weren't just a bunch of idiots.

[batsauce]

120. and I was thinking about that little church in South Carolina

that tried to kick out the Democrats. This was a fundamentalist church with a sizable group of Dem's.

To group them with Dobson crowd is not right, but Bias is not about doing the right thing.

[Sapphire Blue]

124. There's been great support on DU for the Jacksonville Declaration

Check it out, sign the Declaration & Reclaim Christianity! :hi:

http://www.christianalliance.org/site/c.bnKIIQNtEoG/b.689007/k.2601/Flash_Movie.htm

[undeterred]

85. to some Christians, Catholics are not Christians

which is kind of historically amazing...

About 20 years ago at Christmas time I was in a public place with my sister (a fundamentalist/ pentecostal) and my 4 year old niece. There were some nuns in habits admiring a Christmas exhibit and my niece, who had never seen a nun, asked "who are those ladies?"

I immediately answered "they're a different kind of Christian".

To which my sister immediately answered "DON'T TEACH HER THAT!"
(As if I were making a judgment on the metaphysical truthfulness of their faith, instead of explaining their clothing!)

That was the moment that I realized how far apart my beliefs were from my sister's. She taught her children that theirs was the one true faith and the only way to God. She did not bring them up to respect the faiths of others as equivalent paths to God or to respect people who do not believe in God. I do not have children, but if I did, I would certainly want them to respect other peoples belief systems.

It leaves me out of the fold too...

[txindy]

117. Yes, quite historically amazing

As if non-Catholic, Christian denominations sprang from Zeus' head or something.

History is only recognized by people like that when it suits them.

[knitter4democracy]

146. How sad.

I learned so much teaching with nuns who actually took me in, gave me a job at their school (even with my religious background), and showed me so much about life.

What's even worse is that her daughter will run smack into someday and realize that really good, nice people aren't in her church and that it's okay.

[undeterred]

148. She is 24 now and the sweetest young lady in the world

but painfully naive. If she meets someone whose faith is different, she will spend hours praying for their salvation.

[knitter4democracy]

153. Sorry, but that made me smile.

I knew many like that in college (small evangelical college in Ohio), and they always made me smile. It's sweet, kind of, especially considering they don't really know how condescending it is and really think they're being nice and doing the right thing. Whatever gives her peace, I guess.

[undeterred]

160. Yeah, even I was like that in college

but the first few years afterwards REAL LIFE hit and fundamentalism didn't work any more.

One of my best friends got into a Christian group which transformed into a cult- she and her husband were in it for 8 years. They cut everyone out of their lives who wouldn't join. A child in their group died from lack of medical care (prayer only) and the leaders of the group went to prison.

Another friend got involved with a married man and became pregnant- all we could offer her was judgment.

Unless you have spectacular powers of denial, real life undoes the naivete of fundamentalism.

[knitter4democracy]

161. Wow.

"Unless you have spectacular powers of denial, real life undoes the naivete of fundamentalism."

That is amazingly true. My in-laws are Republican evangelicals, and it's their power of denial that keeps them there, I think. They only started listening to me and my husband about socialized medicine when she got breast cancer and he lost his job with the insurance afterwards. They paid through the nose for months for Cobra, and that's when they finally started seeing that the system is seriously broken.

Real life is spectacularly difficult and complicated. They try to make everything black and white, but it is rarely so. It was easy for me to be an evangelical when I was a teen, but it became impossible when I was an adult.

[undeterred]

164. Exactly

I remember being in a Christian youth group where there was heavy pressure to become born-again and convert others. They told us that in 20 years only 1 in 300 of us would still be faithful to this kind of faith, because other things would get in the way if we weren't careful.

Its kind of funny to think about it now- 299 out of 300 will figure out that this approach to life doesn't work, but one of you will still think like a teenager!

[knitter4democracy]

165. I used to hear that, too.

Of course, they always make it sound like you'll become the world's worst sinner, but it's more like finally seeing what Jesus really meant by loving our neighbor and helping the least of these.

Of course, not everyone develops good critical thinking skills, which might have a strong part to play in that.

[undeterred]

166. Unfortunately a lot of people in my life

(like my sister) have never let go of the simplistic approach, which seems to depend on simple answers for everything. "Do you know where you will go if you die tonight?" "Do you believe in the authority of the Bible?" I can parrot the answer they want or try to have a discussion, but either way I'll lose.

At bottom, its belief based on fear of punishment, rather than belief grounded in hope and love.

[knitter4democracy]

172. True.

And isn't that sad? I'm sorry it's that way for you in your family. That must make family events and get-togethers difficult. I know I don't look forward to any major events with my in-laws. You should've seen them at our children's baptisms! They don't believe in infant baptism, but we do, so that was, um, interesting. At least they were civil.

[leesa]

88. It's true, Bleedingheart, and you need to shout it out. These Pharisees

need to be stopped, just like when Jesus felt the need to stop their evil. Don't just whine, become a warrior.

[batsauce]

97. Just remember, it wasn't the Pharisees that got Jesus killed.

It was the Sadducees.

The Pharisees were religious extremists.
The Sadducess were the political status qou.

Keep in mind which group had more power.

[Dragonfli]

106. Relgeous Extremists had a little to do with it

http://liberalslikechrist.org/religiousmenu.htm

Jesus told his followers exactly who his killers were going to be and what motivated them:

{ In Mark 10: 32--34 }
: He took the twelve aside again and began to tell them what was to happen to him, saying, "See, we are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be handed over to the chief priests and the scribes, and they will condemn him to death; then they will hand him over to the Gentiles; they will mock him, and spit upon him, and flog him, and kill him; and after three days he will rise again."
{And in Luke 9:22--26 }
"The Son of Man must undergo great suffering, and be rejected by the elders, chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and on the third day be raised." Then he said to them all, "if any want to become my followers, let them deny themselves and take up their cross daily and follow me. For those who want to save their life will lose it, and those who lose their life for my sake will save it. What does it profit them if they gain the whole world, but lose or forfeit themselves? Those (preachers and followers) who are ashamed of me and of my words, of them the Son of Man will be ashamed when he comes in his glory and the glory of the Father and of the holy angels."
{ Luke 21: 37 -- 22:5 } describes the plotting of those clerics as follows:
Every day he was teaching in the temple, and at night he would go out and spend the night on the Mount of Olives, as it was called. And all the people would get up early in the morning to listen to him in the temple. Now the festival of Unleavened Bread, which is called the Passover, was near. The chief priests and the scribes were looking for a way to put Jesus to death, for they were afraid of the people. Then Satan entered into Judas called Iscariot, who was one of the twelve; he went away and conferred with the chief priests and officers of the temple police about how he might betray him to them. They were greatly pleased and agreed to give him money.
The real mystery isn't who killed Christ, which the Gospels make crystal clear, but why people seem unwilling to accept the fact that Christ was murdered by so-called "men of god"

...

[batsauce]

115. He was crucifed by Romans, after the judgment of a Roman consul

Are you saying the Romans were men of God?

The Sadducees were not chief priests and scribes, but a political body, which worked with the Romans.

Clearly, the Chief Priests rejected Jesus, but Jews did not kill Jesus, Gentiles did.

The Chief Priests and Scribes were not extremists, they were too busy trying to appease the Romans. I guess you'd have to call them moderates. The Pharisees were extremists, but they didn't have the political clout necessary to kill the man from Nazarath. They were more interested in arguing with him anyhow. There were plenty of of extremists in Israel at the time, but the priests and scribes weren't.

[Dragonfli]

127. Wow I'm so Sorry

"priests and scribes" is how the bible tells this story and I didn't know that you so strongly disagreed with scripture.

I didn't realize you were arguing as an atheist
(ignoring posted scriptural evidence).
My bad.
So be it! I am a pagan anyway

I guess I just plain disagree with you and your "I didn't kill my wife that hit man did" defense you just have offered for your "clients" the Pharisees. I mean.. well.. who hired the hit-man?

---- End of response to your weird reply?/Argument----------

IMHO RANT below

and just so we are clear.

I said nothing about jews (although you seem to be obsessed with them as evidenced by your earlier replies to other posters)
I was talking about the "corrupt clergy" so reminiscent of our modern day Phelps type pharisees who try so hard to discredit and discourage true christians while claiming the name.

I was born and raised catholic and had to endure that shit from some "special" christians like the original poster had to endure. I left the church for other reasons but remembered the experience.
Then For 5 years I went "gnostic" weird huh?.
After that, for some reason I still don't understand I became "born again", I guess it didn't take because I kept arguing Christs words against the lavitican pronouncements of the clergy, and well, let's just say.. "they didn't think that was very proper."

I Left that church because they wanted me to hate my fellow man.

I am now a Wiccan priest in a church of my own making and I choose to love rather than hate. Many Christians I know have found the same message of love in the teachings of christ. I encourage them in their faith because their example is one of love!!
NOT so with "Fristians" they are not christians at all but Pharisee.

Bottom Line- those who follow Christ's words are Christians
Those who pray so loud while judging other christians, and everyone else for that matter, are Pharisees and they are the enemy of Christians just as they were of Christ.

A little life experience might do you well

Also learn to use the little "link thingies" people post here.
They take you to other "web places" so that you can "read stuff" relevant to the posters point.(I can tell you didn't follow my last link)
I will try the link thing again see if you can follow along
I am a pagan trying to make a point for my christian friends, I would prefer then that you ignore me and try to read what real christians have to say about this.

http://liberalslikechrist.org/religiousmenu.htm
http://liberalslikechrist.org/about/whokilledchrist.html
http://liberalslikechrist.org/testimonials.htm

[batsauce]

140. Condescending, aren't you?

"link thingies"? I am glad you have learned how to click on a link, but don't assume that other people find the experience quite so esoteric.

As a Christian, I don't believe I have a right to define what "real" Wiccans are.
As a Wiccan, you really have no business defining what "real Christians" are.

All of your links point to one site, One that makes no pretentions to being anything other than biased. (not that they are prejudiced against a particular group, but they are only interested in one particular viewpoint. Not that it is bad to have opinions, but one should never confuse the Opinion section with the News section)It has some good information, but if you want to understand anything as complicated as Christianity and the Bible, I would urge you to learn how to click on other websites also.

[Dragonfli]

156. I apologize for the Condescension

That was out of line, my bad, yet again. I owe you a beer for that one :beer:, oh hell, I was a total prick make that two beers :beer:

I do think however that I qualified my rant as opinion with IMHO In My Humble Opinion

They were my opinions and I was merely trying to share them with you.
As for clicking on other links and reading other views - Been There, Done That:
http://www.landoverbaptist.org/news0702/wiccans.html
http://www.godhatesfags.com/main/
And nothing in those sites or countless others like them have changed my mind - IMHO - I still think that those people do not follow christ's teachings and are therefore not "real" Christians.

Whereas these folks and others like them:
http://www.yuricareport.com/Religion/TheBloodGuiltyChurches.html
http://liberalslikechrist.org/index.htm
IMHO - Appear to Follow Christ and live according to his example. You can tell them by their fruits - was Jesus about hate? Or Love?

I should point out that I have learned far more about this "complicated" subject via life experience than I have ever learned on the internet.

I lived for 30 years as a Christian and in more than one of it's denominations.
I learned catholic theology in Catholic School(G.S and H.S.) and CYO
I learned far right theology straight from the horses mouth when I was immersed in a Fundy church (two actually - Southern Baptist and one that should have been called The First Church Of Calvin but was labeled "Presbyterian" for some reason)
I learned some amazing things from christian mystics but that is probably irrelevant to this discussion.

30 years as a Christian may or may not qualify me to have an opinion in your eyes, but I have formed one nonetheless.
If it makes you feel any better I have only been on the Pagan path for 12 years now and so I guess I am even less qualified to form an opinion on Wicca, so I am feeling a bit humble now.
But Humility Is good! (I learned that from Taoism)

I thank you for reminding me to be less arrogant.
No sarcasm, I really mean that.
I have been working very hard on humility lately in in a weird way you have helped with that.:pals:

Something still puzzles me though, just what point exactly are you trying to make? What exactly is your opinion? and what life experience, theological learning or history degree qualifies your view? What links do you offer Us?

As it stands now, sadly, it looks like we will have to agree to disagree as you still have furnished nothing to change my opinion that "Fristians" are not "real" Christians but rather the modern Pharisee.
Nor have you furnished anything to convince me that the Pharisee Scribes and Clerics of Jesus' time did not actively seek his execution as is claimed in scripture. All I have on that is your word that they were just harmless moderates.

I still do not think the biblical Pharisees and the modern Pharisees "Fristians"
are/were harmless or are/were moderate.

And I still think Christ lives in the hearts of The True Christians (of whatever denomination) but could never live in a hate filled heart.
Even simple pagan folk can see that.

As I said we may simply have to agree to disagree
:hippie:

[batsauce]

158. agreeing to disagree.

Well, apology accepted. Just how are you planning on getting my beers to me, anyhow?

You might want to know that your two web citiations are of doubtful authenticity.

1.According to Wikipedia, Landover Church is a parody http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landover_Baptist_Church
2.According to Wikipedia Westboro Baptist church consists of Fred Phelps, his children, and their spouses. They meet in the basement of his house. I don't see how anyone can consider him representative of Christianity in general. These are the people who do the http://www.godhatesfags.com/main / site. I know of no church who has endorsed his foolishness.

In short, you can't condemn a religion that has done a great deal of good in the world, involving millions of people over 2000 years based on a joke and a wingnut.

That being said, you have clearly not turned your back on Christianity because of some website. Clearly someone or some people have done you wrong, and you have been so badly burned you have rejected Christ and his church. I'm sure you have your reasons. I am sure this is not the venue to address them.

As far the perpetrators of the Jesus murder, Jesus himself let himself be crucified. He could have stopped it. There is a lot of theology involved here, but Christan's believe it was something he had to do to restore a broken relationship between a holy god and sinful man. It is actually a complicated story, and I suspect that God didn't want it to be simple.


Now as far as the biblical players, Yes it was the Romans who nailed him to the cross and thrust a spear in his side. So Gentiles certainly are responsible. In fact, they were pagans, so you might even say pagans were responsible. As a Gentile I would be included in wwith the Romans.

The Jewish governing body that was instrumental in this crime is the Sanhedrin. It was dominated by the Sadducee's, and indeed the historical shows that they were not zealots like the Pharisees but more attracted to Greek culture. But they observed Jewish ritual. So even though they were 2000 years removed from our labels of Conservative and liberal and moderate, I still feel it is appropriate to refer to them as moderates. (and that's just me by the way,but IMHO i think I'm right). These were rich aristocrats and politically connected, which means that they would have a lot in common with most of our Senators.

The Pharisees (the zealots, the one that Jesus had such friction with)
were not moderates at all. Did I leave that impression? But following the biblical story, they are the ones with the lest direct tie to the murder of Jesus. They did not physically commit the murder, and they had no official venue to condemn to death. The Pharisees had a lot of grassroots support in Jesus time, but all the top political positions were Sadducee's.

The chief priests of Jesus time were political appointments made by the Roman puppet King Herod.

The point of this overly long bit of history, is that Historically, it was not religious extremists who were responsible for Jesus death, but the political power players of the time and place, and none of power players could be called overly religious in the context of 1st century Israel.

Here is one link, if you are at all interested:
http://users.aristotle.net/~bhuie/pharsadd.htm

But from a Christian viewpoint, any human who has sinned is the reason Jesus had to die, and that pretty much includes every human on the planet. But that is the Christian viewpoint, and I suspect that Wiccan's have their own ideas on what makes the universe work.

On edit:
I guess I was condescending myself. That pretty much cancels any beer debt you may have incurred.

[Dragonfli]

168. We are in agreement then!

We agree on even more things than you recognize in fact.

I just want to clear up a couple of misunderstandings you seem to have about my views, If you read everything I posted here you will see that your impression that I condemn Christianity because of some idiots:

In short, you can't condemn a religion that has done a great deal of good in the world, involving millions of people over 2000 years based on a joke and a wingnut.

is mistaken

I don't condemn Christians, I support them, and Christ's teachings.

Phelps and his ilk are the ones I condemn. I thought in fact that link would have clarified that. I do not think for a second that any true christians would feel represented by him. My whole point all along has been to point out that the hate filled loudmouth wing nuts are not representatives of christianity and should not be confused with christianity. (The same thing you are saying!).
I call them "Fristians" because the wing nut, "hate fag" type false christians seem to rally around him, at least politically.
I also call them Pharisees, sorry I just can't resist that as it is so descriptively perfect.

If what you are trying to show me is true, and I have decided to discuss this further with some of my friends who actually finished seminary (unlike lazy old me) before deciding if it is, then Frist and his ilk are the Sadducee element(politician) and the Phelps types and other fag or catholic haters are the Pharisees.

I find both groups dangerous as I believe they work hand in hand, I guess we still disagree on that as you seam unshakable in your belief that only the politicians were/are responsible. In time you may come to see how dangerous the hatred of far right clerics can be.

Please do not misunderstand me, perhaps we are on the same side.
I don't expect you to understand this but I never turned my back on God, only on clerics that were spreading hate. I have expanded my beliefs to include others besides Just Christians, which is not the same thing as turning my back.

I suppose I could still be a Unitarian and have all this tolerance but I don't really think I need a church to love God and Goddess. I know it is hard for you to see why I feel that I never turned my back, but there it is. Just try to understand this is all I ask.

I support Christians, I condemn Hatred - it really is that simple.

Sorry about the other link, I got that link in some hate mail from some freeper. Because the only other text in the e-mail was "die satanist pig" I thought it was at least as authentic as his hatred of me. I should have screened it better, Do you think he knew it was fake? hehe poor misguided freep.

I will get back to you in a couple of weeks after I run your history lesson past my more learned friends. I may end up learning something new after all.

I wish you peace and love, to grow, and share, and spread!

Or as us pagan folk say,
"merry meet
and merry part
and merry meet again"!

[batsauce]

169. not exactly.

I really believe that there is a huge difference between Wiccans and Christians, and the impact is forever.

I sincerely hope your spirtual search is successful.

Also:
"I find both groups dangerous as I believe they work hand in hand, I guess we still disagree on that as you seam unshakable in your belief that only the politicians were/are responsible. In time you may come to see how dangerous the hatred of far right clerics can be."

I don't believe the far right clerics are as dangerous as hatred itself, especially hatred combined with power. Stalin was praised as an enlightened leftist by people of his time, but he ended up killing more of his own people than Hitler killed in his concentration camps. In Russia, the hatred of a leftist non-cleric was what got people killed. Coincidently, the hatred of a rightist non-cleric was getting people killed in Germany.

Clearly, without the hatred of the Pharisees Jesus could not have been condemned, and also, a different sort of Hate of the non-religous (compared to the rest of the Jews, anyhow) powerplayers led directly to his death.

[struggle4progress]

121. "There was only ever one real Christian, and people like you ..

.. nailed him to a cross" is a sometimes useful retort to the Holier-Than-Thou crowd ...

[hyphenate]

125. It is definitely telling, isn't it?

That those who try to preach "the Christian way" are the ones showing the intolerance.

To clarify, whenever I discuss those ludicrous "Christians" who wouldn't know what tolerance was unless they stepped in it (and then they'd be trying to get rid of it!), I understand that it's not the whole realm of Christian worshippers. As it turns out, the saying about the "sqeaky wheel" is appropos, because it is those who shout the loudest who assume the mantel of the public image. And right now, in the past fifty years, the RRR is the squeaky wheel that has presumed the title of "protector of the faith."

My best friend and I are close in many ways, except that. She used to be essentially a lapsed Catholic (like myself) but somewhere in the past fifteen years, she was "born again." And she was sucked into the vacuum of the Christian right to the extent that she now has three religious tattoos on her body, along with a head case of supreme fanaticism. Me? I grew up Catholic, in my own way decided that the Catholic church was not for me, and became very eclectic in my own spiritual goals.

But I firmly believe that any and all people have the right to practice whatever it is they want to practice. Who am I to tell someone what they believe or don't believe isn't right? At least for them, it is. My best friend suffered through severe depression and recently the loss of her mom, and for her, the tranquility that she gets from her faith is exactly what she wants. For me, it is too pat, too fanatical to take myself and accept it. But to each his or her own. I can not think for anyone else--it's a fulltime job to think for myself. What anyone else chooses to think is their business.

As for the RRR, they have overstepped their bounds by trying to do exactly that--think for everyone around them. They have tried to make the choices of others seem trivial and even ridiculed those who don't have the same beliefs. Why should anyone, other than someone whose own mind is weak and vascillating on spiritual and religious thinking, try to make up anyone else's mind for them? People who are in some way lacking in resolve or in choice of beliefs perhaps want to be led around by others--cults prove this time and again. But for the person who has already come down on whatever side of religion and faith they choose, having someone else try to tell them that their religion isn't as "accurate" as someone elses is a downright insult to the intelligence of that person. Why so many DO fall for such utter crap is beyond me. When someone else tells you what you need to believe in, why would anyone in their right mind believe that hooey?

It disturbs me sometimes to have my best friend pull that kind of crap on me, but I am firm in my own choices and feel that she is the one who is lost and needs the guiding hand out of the dark abyss of the RRR. I'm there to give her that hand if she ever decides she wants it. I can't push her--she needs to be the one to make up her own mind about the senselessness of what she is following, but it appears that whatever motive she has for following it is strong enough to entangle her to her death. My resolve is just as strong--to avoid that trap and live with my own choices, which I do quite happily. In my mind, my goals are to understand more about this world, its history and the vastness of the universe, and that is enough for me. Exploring what has never been explored is more appealing than listening to pat answers in a book that has been explored to death--in my opinion, anyhow. And that's what it boils down to, isn't it? Personal opinion. And the ability and freedom to follow our own agenda, not someone else's.

[PATRICK]

128. Like threatens like

The closer you are to someone and YET have a different brand of belief, since it involves whole and absolute grounding for the simple, the more threatened and outspoken one will be. Other religions are exotic and too different to be threatening, to unrelated to be personally involved with that most intimate of snide bitching allowed by the abuse of familial closeness. yet let the Jew or other get too close to your home or job and that kind of animosity will be worse.

And of course it has nothing to do with the advanced tenets of religion that have grown better than the primitive humans who persistently warp them. That is not just true of religion either.

[Zorra]

129. Why do you christians divide yourselves up into different factions?

It has always been hard for me to understand this.

Don't you all believe that God is Love?

I mean, the Gospels all seem pretty clear about that. That Roman guy Paul kind of seems to really distorts and changes the message of Jesus Christ a lot, but why does anyone even consider his words as truth?

[SoCalDem]

139. It's because people who are not out to "save you" or "convert you"

honor YOUR choices,and keep out of your business:)I have friends that I have had for 30 years, and i could not even tell you where they go to church.. It's nothing that interests me at all:)

[timtom]

142. Funny you should say....

My wife and I were members of a Southern Baptist Church. The new pastor was turning the place ugly. But, that's not my story. At her workplace, my wife heard two "born-again" Christians earnestly debating whether or not Catholics were saved.

When she related the story to me I told her enough is enough. We promptly quit that church and denomination and joined another church, which does not ever entertain such discussions.

I feel your pain, my brother or sister in Christ.

[GreenPartyVoter]

143. Yep. Sibling rivalry is a real pain in the bum.

[patrice]

149. Boy, that's true! There People who want to know if you immerse people

being Baptized and if you don't, you're an Alien. Or it's something like - if you Revere Mary the Mother of Jeshua, you're closer to Satan than anything else. Or if you're neo-Socialist/Liberationist in your understanding of the life of Jesus - Or if you take Communion AND CATHOLICS IN GENERAL are considered PARAIAH, though USED well enough for the Mammon's current puppet (and yes I am making a reference to History here, in which Churchs, and THe Catholic Church in particular, have acted as Forces for VIOLENCE and EVIL IN THE WORLD) - so certain Evangelicals are only the CURRENT manifestation of MAMMON on Earth, which is all DIVISION leading people away from Empirical Christianity.

Power Corrupts :

"Give US your Flesh. You no longer Need it. Your flesh is Fodder. "We"/the MACHINE (economic, religious, social, political, paternalism, fascism, "the powers that be", "authority", any FALSE HIERARCHY = 'We') - "We" tells us The World is ruled by Mammon's Hunger. 'We' the MACHINE rule by "virtue" of our Superiority. Be quiet and obey. Give US your Flesh."

"WE" wants us to believe there isn't enough for Everyone. That's a LIE to justify people's Greed.

16+ Blown up while I slept last night.

It's intolerable!

[October]

155. Powerful post...very resonating

I do believe we've traveled the same path...

[arwalden]

159. But If I Scorn The Pope... Am I Attacking You?

If I criticize church doctrine that's anti-gay and anti-woman and anti-science... am I therefore "anti-Catholic"?

[really annoyed]

163. Yes, You Are!

:sarcasm:

Don't be a bigot now! You much tolerate the intolerant!

[JHBowden]

162. Join the dark side.

Be an atheist! :evilgrin:

[KoKo]

167. DU does have Christians who aren't of the Leftist/Litmus Test variety.

But, I understand what you say...because even here..some of us have a "hard time of it" getting our thoughts across without being labeled or having "stones thrown at us." But, you need to understand that Catholics (of the Opus Dei variety) and fundies are here on DU...and I think it's hopeful that some are Democratic and support our Party and a few may even be "Progressives" but their "original affliation seems to overcome their "growth factor." :D