"We need to start pushing a story about how Andy Stephenson faked his own

[mzmolly]

death for insurance reasons." ~ Politicalities - Freeper jerk.

Heads up on the next possible freeper plan.

I didn't think I could be anymore disgusted.

See post #25.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/1439010/posts

:(

[mzmolly]

1. Hopefully it won't go anywhere anyway.

?

[sam sarrha]

4. i am sorry but i see to have missed this story.. i am only in and out.

[ET Awful]

2. What's funny is that these assholes are complaining about

people trying to help Andy STILL, and at the top of their site is a meter showing $66,000 in unaccounted donations going directly into the pockets of Jim Robinson.

[Drifter]

3. The last post is the best ...

something like ... "uh guys?, looks like Andy was a Freeper too" ... with a link to one of his posts.

Cheers
Drifter

[mzmolly]

5. Andy worked with Republicans who were concerned about Voting Rights

as well, but that didn't make him a "freeper."


His accounted was "banned or suspended." Imagine that?

[Drifter]

7. That's what gives him credibility ...

He was willing to reach out to the other side, because in the end it is an issue that affects everyone.

It doesn't matter that his account was suspended. In fact I wish it wasn't. That would show he was able to include them in his fight against voter fraud.

My comment about the last post was about the fact that the entire post trashed him, and then it is revealed that his one of their own. I know he was not a Freeper, but the fact the he was a member at one time, and was trying to interest them in the work he was doing.

Cheers
Drifter

[mzmolly]

45. I know you didn't imply anything with your post.

Cheers to you as well.

[elehhhhna]

6. I HOPE he's on a beach in Bora Bora. Fine by me.

...and they can't hold up any life insurance payouts.

[greatauntoftriplets]

12. I wish he was, too.

Else, I wouldn't be sitting here crying.

[havocmom]

16. (((((((hug for greatauntoftriplets)))))))

been thinkin of ya. Trying to send energy throught the miles.

[greatauntoftriplets]

18. Thanks so much...

I needed that.

[havocmom]

20. Sometime later, when you want to kick it around,

am here... know that

[greatauntoftriplets]

21. I know...

And thank you.

[uppityperson]

44. Had an odd moment yesterday, tears running down my cheeks

I wasn't sobbing, getting stuffy nosed or any of that, just tears running down, when reading about Andy dieing. It was odd, just sad and teary. I wish he was on the beach too.

[tavalon]

123. Andy would never have been willing to sit on a beach

The only thing that ever would have kept him from fighting for voter verified paper ballots is death. And damn it all to hell, we won't be seeing him out there anymore.

Great Goddess, can't they just leave him and his family alone! What the hell is wrong with these people!

[mzmolly]

47. Oh I'm so sorry.

:(

I join you all in your wish.

I feel in some eternal way he is in a paradise of his choosing?

I wonder what that would be?

[juajen]

83. So sorry, greatauntoftriplets, I know how much you loved him

Seems to be a hole in my heart tonight, too, even though I didn't know him nearly as well as some of you.

[blue neen]

8. I can't imagine the amount of hatred a person is carrying around with them

that would cause them to make such a twisted statement. Pitiful, despicable, and barely recognizable as the human race.

I hope this person doesn't claim to be a Christian because Christ would be appalled.

[SammyWinstonJack]

155. Fits FReepers to a tee.

"Pitiful, despicable, and barely recognizable as the human race."

[Cocoa]

9. I like these other posts better

from that same thread:


42.Gee, I didn't know anything about this guy but I doubt anyone is happy about his death. Anyone who would think it's funny is just sick and I don't see anyone here yucking it up over the mans death or using it for some political purpose. That would be horrid. Most considerate and feeling people know that when someone dies like this it's a solemn time. Most people, but not all:

69.I don't know. I feel sorry that Andy died, but I remember those hate-filled threads the DUmmies posted cheering the deaths of Reagan and Thurmond....also threads were the majority of DUmmies were happy that Laura Ingerham (spelled wrong probably) had breast cancer or Tony Snow had colon cancer. Those people are beyond hate-filled. Put I guess I should be above them.

May Andy Stephenson (spelled right?) rest in peace.


70.The poor guy is dead. You can call me a bleeding heart all day but at least I have respect for the dead and have offered prayers for him, his family and friends.

Yes, the fund raising was questionable but people are acting like their cause is gone so now we have ridiculous conspiracy theories, he faked his death, he's living on an island that was paid for by donations on and on. What purpose does this serve?

Let them bury him and give them time to mourn. Some of the comments on this thread make me ashamed to be a freeper. Yes, I know DUh made horrible comments after Reagan's passing but does that mean we have also lower ourselves into the gutter?

76.Rest in peace Andy, may God welcome you into his arms.

[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cocoa]

14. there were only 50 posts on that thread

I read them one by one and found the good ones, the ones that would be better to focus on.

On other threads at FR, the ratio was much higher than this one.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/1438879/posts?q=1&&page=51

3.That's what I heard. Sad. Pancreatic cancer isn't easy to beat.


20.Andy is just ten dollars away from being buried.

I couldn't help that.

Sorry to hear this news if it's true. Regardless of politics, I don't like to see people die young.



26.May he rest in Peace.


32.I hope it's not true. He's a young guy.


33.Same here. I've had my plans (and arrangements) pre-set so my kids and other family don't have to go through all the funeral arrangements. They kick in once I've shirked this mortal coil.

As for Andy, may he rest in peace.



34.It appears to be true.

Too bad.
Hey PJ... I think you owe Andy an apology.

RIP Andy Stephenson - A passionate political foe


35.It appears to be true.

Too bad.
Hey PJ... I think you owe Andy an apology.

RIP Andy Stephenson - A passionate political foe



36.RIP Andy. I may not have liked your politics, but its a shame whenever someone dies, especially so young. Whatever his crimes are/were, G-d will forgive him if he repents. And if he is blameless, then his reward awaits him.


38.DU ghouls were pissing with delight on Barbara Olsen's grave last week when Ted Olsen was being considered for Supreme Court. Let's rise above them.

RIP Andy

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cocoa]

22. with us or against us?

you're telling me it's bad to find something good at FR, or to try to find something good there, or to want to find something good there?

Isn't that a little simplistic and unrealistic, that a message board could be PURE EVIL?

Isn't that kind of good vs. evil thinking a little bit familiar, isn't that the kind of thinking (when the stakes are much higher than this DU vs. FR thing) the kind of thinking that enables wars?

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mzmolly]

72. In Fred Grady's camp?

I thought the rhetoric sounded sickeningly familiar? :puke:

[bettyellen]

98. sickeningly familiar

yep.

[mzmolly]

99. No wonder I can't get a reply?

:(

[Name removed]

101. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bettyellen]

27. aside from being really pointless, this is highly offensive to those

who knew andy and believed in him. but you probbly wouldn't understand that.
and somehow i am not suprised you posted this.
:eyeesroll:

[Cocoa]

34. it's ok to highlight the hateful posts about Andy

but it's "offensive" to post the ones that express sorrow at Andy's death?

I'm not going to demand that you explain this, and I'm not challenging you on it, I'm not looking for an argument, and I'm not going to insist I'm right.

All I'm going to say is that you're right, I don't understand. And I'm speaking as someone who has experienced the loss of loved ones.

[goodboy]

41. That's like saying, "You want Saddam Hussein back in power?" if you

opposed the Iraq War.

pathetic, cocoa, really.

You're defending them.

[Name removed]

56. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mzmolly]

60. THEM started a smear campaign against Andy. There IS a "them"

to consider here.

If I had known about the first smear campaign before it started I'd have posted about IT as well.

I make NO apologies.

[tavalon]

124. But what people are trying to say here

is that not all of "them" really are "them"- the dispicable scum who slandered Andy and Beth and Ben.

The "them" that did that deserve no pity, no quarter.

But some of the people at FR, deluded though they may be, just might have a bit of humanity.

[mzmolly]

164. Who gives a shit, this thread is about a possible smear campaign.

If people want to start a thread about the "humanity" at Free Republic they may do so.

[goodboy]

64. there's no logic in your statement either. These people are scum.

Every one of them.

[troubleinwinter]

67. You want to become "us" with the freeps at that site??!!

It is of interest to me that a "DUer" would spend so much time over there as to cherry-pick their posts and bring them here, proposing that we should regard "them" as "us".

If you want to be "us" with them... go right ahead. You appear to have a good running head start on it.

Kindly do not track freep shit across our carpet.

[Cocoa]

70. the original post is the one that's bringing the Freep shit

I'm bringing the freepers' good posts here.

[mzmolly]

73. No this isn't about "freeper shit" it's about "freeper smear campaigns"

and the planning of said smear campaign against a friend.

Now why don't you spend the rest of your time doing good deeds, by bringing the good of DU to Free Republic?

[goodboy]

74. Why? Do they bring our "good" posts there?

In case you haven't noticed, FReepers have been attacking Andy since April. Nearly ALL of the scumdy.com members are FREEPERS!
The rest are FReepers using 3-4 alias' because they're cockroaches scared shitless of being exposed for what they've done!

but you have noticed.

[Name removed]

76. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[GiovanniC]

79. A Lot of Those So-Called "Good" Posts Are Really Not

They are using a death to make malicious comments about DU and other dems but as long as they throw in a half-hearted, "Yeah, sucks that he died", you consider it a "good" post.

I guess it's just that the bar is so low for Freepers.

[bettyellen]

86. it's not the first stuff you've brought in from there. is it?

[Name removed]

81. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bettyellen]

87. yes, you are defending them,

and there is a them.
dumbest post ever.

[Bluerthanblue]

68. NO-

it is doing what anyone who is committed to being a decent person should do- it is judging INDIVIDUALS by their own individual actions, and statements, and not HATING or CLUMPING all humans in a particular place as THE SAME-

i'm sorry, but DAMNIT THIS is EXACTLY what is wrong with this whole fucking screwed up world- 'we' try to pretend that the potential for being WRONG, or BAD or doing incredibly terrible and mean things does not exist in EVERY SINGLE ONE OF US-!!!

As if somehow by making people into something other than human beings just like YOU and just like ME protects 'us' from ever thinking we could become 'them'- there is enough bigotry and hatred and revenge in this world to kill us all a million times over- and what do we gain by perpetuating it???? Why spread stupid, ugly, baseless gossip? It only feeds hate-

Honor Andy's LIFE and his WORK and his SPIRIT- there is no need to 'defend' him- He did NOTHING wrong. And those sad, hate filled folks who insist on harping on negative shit don't matter- and those of us who admired, loved, and supported Andy don't do him any service by playing into the hate-

Would he honestly want this????? i sincerly doubt it-
and though i never "met" Andy- and did not 'KNOW' him well- i know he was a person of passion, dedication, and compassion. And i watched him draw us together, and help us focus on how to make things BETTER, not worse.

Cocoa is showing the 'impact' that Andy had, even on the 'ground' you see as enemy- i see alot of sad, angry, hopeless folks, who are very much in need of a life changing loss, or lesson, but, i can only pity those who choose to hate, and slander, when nothing else will soothe the beast that 'controls' their emotions- i've been a jerk in my life- and i've done MUCH i regret, and have needed to answer for- why spread hate, and bigotry? because when 'freepers' talk about 'duers' and vice a versa that is all that is being accomplished-

will we EVER 'grow up'- or 'learn' that just because we get hurt or wronged by someone, to do wrong in return, only makes everything more wrong-

Be angry- but don't do wrong, in revenge.- PLEASE-! please????

[goodboy]

71. look- don't even get me started, Ok?

[mzmolly]

77. Don't characterize my thread in that manner.

This is about bringing awareness to a potential coming slander.

Given the good people at FR and other places have smeared Andy in his last days, I felt we should be alert to the potential it might happen again.

This is not about plucking the ugliest comment(s) I could find on RW blogs about Andy.

I stumbled upon this information searching for Andy's obituary as some claim he's not dead. Imagine that?

I do not regret sharing this.

[Bluerthanblue]

88. Molly-

let the people make fools of themselves- YOU know the TRUTH- don't you?
Those who doubted, and be-littled the good done here and the GOODNESS of Andy are eating crow- and playing the denial game-

If people chose to believe the worst- all the words you could possible throw at them wouldn't change their hearts- it would only bring you down- you know what i HATED? i HATED the fact that the Mods felt it necessiary to post PROOF that Andy was in hospital, and that the diagnosis was verified-

THAT in my opinion showed how much 'we' have in common with the group of people who live at FR and look for the worst in people share-

You are angry, and rightfully so, but to catagorize an entire group of people by the actions of the vilest, and loudest, and yes perhaps the most prevelant as being the WHOLE of them is unfair, and unproductive.

it's like throwing my paper ballot in the trash, because most of the people on my road voted for bush-

INDIVIDUALS should have their indiviual voices heard. i was surprised, and (hate to admit this ) GLAD that someone 'owed' an apology, and that was pointed out to them, and they ACKNOWLEDGED it-
i don't 'go there' because i don't share much if anything with the majority of posters there. But they are not ALL shit- and we're not ALL good- we all have things to answer for-

i understand the anger- more than you will ever know.

[mzmolly]

91. This isn't about them making fools of themselves. It's about noting

a potential smear campaign so we can prevent such a thing via awareness.

If this thread were about pointing out vicious foolishness about Andy at RW sites, unfortunately it would be MUCH MUCH longer.

[Rob_G]

85. People keep saying...

"Mourn Andy's passing, feel the loss, but don't do anything in revenge."

What are people talking about?

Is anybody here talking about taking the law into their own hands?

Is anybody here talking about literally--- not metaphorically--- doing physical harm to the creeps who smeared Andy Stephenson?

No. People are talking about wanting to see *justice done through our legal system.*

There's not a damn thing wrong with that.

In fact, that's a little something we call the American way.

[mzmolly]

94. Welcome Rob.

I would add ..

Is anyone here talking about spreading false rumors about a man who isn't here to defend himself? NO.

[alittlelark]

122. uh, yeah...............

[bettyellen]

92. i will defend andy all i fucking want.

he was my friend.
some people didn't like andy month ago, tried to discredit him, and now that he's gone, this is what they do. make lame ass excuses and try to get people to forget what assholes they were.
fuck that, if it's bullshit, i'm calling it.

[Bluerthanblue]

114. bettyellen

go back and look and you will see that i was among those who defended Andy- and i WILL continue to defend Andy-

But, and i ask this honestly, is what you are doing bringing anything 'good' other than giving you a place to blow off your rage?
Defend Andy- but don't 'destroy' those who were NOT part of the 'smear' campaign along with those you are angry at- if you do that, you aren't 'defending Andy' you are simply using people as your whipping boys-
Which is exactly what i believe those who attacked Andy were doing-

Name names Bettyellen- TARGET those who are speaking lies- and speak truth to their lies if that helps you to feel more 'ok'- i may be idealistic, but, can we (DU'ers) not disagree with 'blanket condemnations' without being called the equivlient of 'unpatriotic'? -

i join you in condemning the tactics and cruel spirited foolishness that 'He's on a tropical island'- that is so ridiculusly stupid- and lame, that it hardly needs refuting- but i join you in condemning that asinine assertion.

i'm coming from the same direction, just differ in the path to take towards a common end.

[mzmolly]

116. Bluerthanblue

YOU don't know who was part of the smear campaign.

The OP is about the smear campaign and a stawman was entered in. The stawman "don't condemn half the nation because of a few bad apples" :eyes: no one is doing that.

[Bluerthanblue]

120. Check out

post # 64-

While the intent may have been a 'heads up' the threads went down to the dark side, and when Cocoa had the temerity to bring up the reality that there were some 'kind' words posted- he/she was quickly and angrily attacked.

that bothers me- and it's wrong- and when dissent against the 'opinion' that is dominant is met with 'go join them'- then fuck- bush HAS his empire.

i'm sick of this whole world right now- most especially disapointed in those i thought i had 'important' things in common with.

strawmen and 'rules of debate' might matter in college- but in a discussion, when someone says something that is unpopular, or that others might not want to hear and is condemned- and their 'loyalty' is questioned, it pisses me off- Cocoa is entitled to speak without being attacked for doing so-

and i believe there is an apology due to her/him-

but then, i've been told enough on this stupid forum- Democrats don't apologize- so we have truly lost any semblence of being 'different'???

i'm done-

[mzmolly]

163. I have checked out that post, and the posts apologizing for people

who slandered Andy with the same rhetoric which led to said post.

People who don't like my thread can hide it and keep their finger shaking to themselves.

[Bluerthanblue]

171. molly

i'm not shaking any fingers at anyone- and i'm not shoving a fist in your face-
i'm not fighting you-
All i was trying to say was 'Give peace a chance'- and it is our own individual choice as to how we 'do' that-
you do what you feel you need to-

peace-

[mzmolly]

176. I wasn't accusing you of shaking fingers I accused you of defending finger

shakers, and I'll give peace a chance, when they stop slandering Andy.

[tavalon]

125. I'm finally getting in touch with my anger now

I've been sad and numb for the last few days.

That said, I wholly support what you've just said.

The people who kept Andy from getting his surgery in a timely fashion must be held to their responsibility. And it's likely that they will be held to it in a very harsh manner. So be it. They brought it upon themselves.

But not every Freeper was involved and many of them have offered condolences and I will not disregard that.

The only place this is an us v. them is regarding the slander, libel and possible murder.

Those people have shown themselves to have some humanity. I will not disregard that.

[bettyellen]

84. you can't empathise or understand how we would feel about this, fine.

you seem to be the only one here that doesn't get it. it matters not to you to offend others by promoting freeper bullshit-- well that's you. go be their poster girl for all i care.

and damned right you're not going to demand anything, don't me laugh any harder.

[mogster]

126. Oh, the poor, poor freepers

The poor, misunderstood, throdden-on, misinterpreted freepers.
I'm crying on their behalf, poor, pooor, poor things.

I am so sorry their GOOD NAME are slandered. I'm so sorry that not EVERY fucking side of their incessant, hate filled debate is showing up here--at the main liberal community--so that THEY can be given the FAIR fucking trial of opinion that was denied to Andy in THEIR camp.

The 'wanting to be good, but not showing a dicks length of REAL good'-freepers.
The 'I want to fuck up the DUmmie community'-freepers.
The 'I think torture is a fucking RIOT'-freepers.

I'm not shure how to grieve properly for our mistreatment of this group of inoocent people. I am glad to see they have their staunch defenders here too.

Can you teach me?

[mzmolly]

50. I like the other posts better too, but I doubt there will be an organized

right wing effort to mourn Andy.

On the other hand, we've seen an organized RW effort to trash him.

I thought it might be best if we were mindful of what might follow the first few trash sites.

[noiretextatique]

59. you need to fig a little deeper on FR

20.Andy is just ten dollars away from being buried.

36.RIP Andy. I may not have liked your politics, but its a shame whenever someone dies, especially so young. Whatever his crimes are/were, G-d will forgive him if he repents. And if he is blameless, then his reward awaits him.


38.DU ghouls were pissing with delight on Barbara Olsen's grave last week when Ted Olsen was being considered for Supreme Court. Let's rise above them

there aren't exactly "loving."

what exactly is your agenda anyway?

[goodboy]

65. shh...

don't want to call attention to the scumbag freepers who've been doing this to Andy, and continue doing it to him in death.


we only want to talk about the 'nice' freepers.

excuse me while I :puke:

/sarcasm

[Cocoa]

69. 20 was a tasteless joke

followed by "I couldn't help that.

Sorry to hear this news if it's true. Regardless of politics, I don't like to see people die young."

Which i highlighted as being good.


36 is a perfect example of my understanding of Christianity.

38 I have no problem with Freepers aspiring to better than DU's worst moments.

[mzmolly]

82. Gosh the "I couldn't help that" makes it all ok doesn't it?

What if they organize another smear campaign to hurt Andy's family? Is that ok with you too? Perahps if they add "I couldn't help it" at the end?

My thread was not about combing RW sites for Andy smears, it was about a specific suggestion to organize more lies. If it were about the former, I'd have pages to fill.

[noiretextatique]

113. WTF does he have to "repent" for?

fuck THAT understanding of christianity. a crass and tasteless joke, followed by...whatever. that's giving with one hand and taking away with the other...yeah, that's "good" :eyes:
perhaps freepers should aspire to better than THEIR worst moments. some of the comments were decent and heartfelt, but there is no need to PRETEND these were, unless of course you have some agenda.

[RummyTheDummy]

15. You're right goodboy

I spent a good amount of time on FR yesterday looking at their reactions. I have a strong stomach. I found precious few posts with any empathy whatsoever. They're reveling in it.

Cocoa has been spouting this bullshit for 48 hours. He/she rips Will Pitt for vowing to stand up and bring justice to Andy. It's that kind of cowardice that has gotten us killed the last few election cycles. I pray Cocoa NEVER sits on a murder trial jury. The prosecution could have high res video of the murder and Cocoa would still turn the other cheek and vote for an aquital. Some people just don't have the stomach to do what's right.

[Cocoa]

23. I pray I'm never on a murder trial jury

I would NEVER want to be in that position.

[RummyTheDummy]

24. At least you can admit it (NT)

NT

[merh]

30. Gee what a surprise.

It is such a shame that for some, old grudges have such a grip on their reality, they cannot recognize how morally outrageous the attacks were and how wrong the attackers are to this very day.

I can't imagine what type of person could defend these people. :shrug:

[Bluerthanblue]

80. ya know

i make it a point NOT to go to the FR because i don't believe it is a 'healthy' place for many people to be- and i'm not 'championing' Cocoa, as far as i know, Cocoa and i haven't had any interactions in my years on DU
BUT, i would FAR RATHER have Cocoa on a murder trial jury, because it appears that he or she is willing to look at the whole picture, DETAILS and all, and not judge, without looking CLOSELY at the details-

Was it wrong for those on FR to denegrate Andy, and those of us who CHOSE to support him, in financial ways AND in spirt? ABSOLUTELY- but, and i hate to bring this up, there were ALSO those who are members of THIS VERY BOARD who 'questioned' his ....need..... or the urgency of it-
People make mistakes- and do stupid things- i didn't doubt the need- or need any 'proof' of his urgency- he was a friend in need- and that is all that mattered-

Grief is a very VERY hard thing to go through- believe me, i'm getting my phd in it (not in school, but in life) And ANGER is part of 'getting through' it- but PLEASE for your own sakes, don't lash out at others in your pain- it will only haunt you, and spread everything WRONG about this world-

Hate DOES breed hate love sometimes hurts like hell, but it is the BEST choice- the best alternitive- vent the anger and rage on something in-animate.... it has to come out, but don't do more harm in your desire to make things right. Again i say PLEASE?

life is so very painful, and hard- lets not hurt each other any more than we've already been hurt-

i don't mean to sound preachy- i just HATE to see people lash out in their grief and pain and anger at the UNFAIRNESS of life on earth-

peace.
blu (who used to be emmy)

[mzmolly]

89. This thread is about a possible coming smear, and I hoped to

prevent it by spreading the word.

I resent the mis-characterization of my intent. For those wishing to do good deeds, I'd say they should spend some time at the infamous smear Andy site. There's lots of evil there that needs some attention.

[Bluerthanblue]

109. There is nothing

wrong with wanting to have the 'truth' told-

what i object to, is the condemnation of ALL those based on the actions even of the majority- 'They are ALL scum'-

Now, i don't know ANYONE from FR, but that statement is unfair-
And encourageing people to 'spend time at the infamous smear Andy site' would serve what benefit?

i consider DU my 'home'- but when the folks in 'my family' condemn the entire household next door, because of the actions of the 'majority' as vile as those actions might be- it's STILL wrong-

i ask again what do you think Andy would want??? i recall him expressing great sadness about having to 'defend' the terrible reality of his illness- well, he sure did SHUT THEM UP- damn it- and those who want to play thier sick games about him 'being on a desert island' aren't worth fighting- they will never admit how desperately WRONG they are- and anyone with a reasonable brain will see that.

But aside from throwing all the bunch into the trash, you are free to do what you feel is best and most important- i only ask that you not lump all individuals into the same 'boat'- some stowaways may be destroyed allong with the ship- and just as you would not want to be 'judged' by my words thoughts or deeds- nor i yours, should we do that to 'them'????- this 'evildoer' with us or against us ass of a 'leader' seems to have corrupted most all of us-

i care, i'm sorry to disagree with you- but i do care.

[mzmolly]

112. Show me where I condemned the entire bunch at FR in my OP?

I ask that you stop characterizing my post in a dishonest manner.

I posted ONE post about a smear idea on FR. I then said it was a "head ups."

Read it again if you must because you missed the point.

[Rob_G]

95. Bluerthanblue:

Do you have the imagination to see even the faint possibility that those who smeared Andy may have actually broken one or several laws in so doing, and therefore should be brought to justice--- through our system of criminal justice--- for that?

And on whose behalf do we bring people to justice--- don't we do it for we, the people? Don't those of us who cared about Andy Stephenson's plight have a right collectively to ask that justice be done?

Nobody is talking about resorting to vigilante violence. That's a straw man. If you can't see that Will Pitt-- a well-known, gifted writer-- was speaking of metaphorical wounds in his essay then you need a refresher course in literary devices 101. And if you can point to anybody else who is seriously talking about doing violence to scamdies or freepers, then don't even bother whining about it on a message board. Your job is to call the police.

[mzmolly]

96. Excellent post!

:toast:

Thank you.

[Bluerthanblue]

118. Rob

if you have the energy desire and drive to sue those who discredited Andy than by ALL MEANS go for it-
That is INDEED what justice is all about- and why laws against slandering someone exist-

i don't believe any money will change anything- but there are many people who value their money far more than human beings, and if there are those who might think twice before defaming a persons integrety again as a result of being held accountable then, i hope you DO file suit, and prevail-

When peoples anger against a 'group' be that FR or DU or IRAQ or the US and say 'they are ALL scum' which WAS said here- and the fire of hate is easy to kindle, but hard to extinguish- then i feel the need to speak out for the INDIVIDUAL- and AGAIN, i will equate that with Andy's fight for VERIFIABLE paper ballots- so that every SINGLE INDIVIDUAL is counted for where they stand, and NOT classed in with the masses- i also feel very strongly about universal health care, as i have none- and am classed as 'uninsurable' because of pre-existing conditions- so once again, the 'group think' has thrown me in the trash, as one of a 'group' rather than the individual i am-

that, was my problem with where this thread headed-
not the concept of 'righting a wrong' but with hatred for the whole based on the stupidity and cruelty of a loud few.

it would be refreshing to see 'justice done'-
go for it- i'm not against you.

[goodboy]

133. Welcome to DU, Rob_G!

[Sterling]

174. I don't get the same impression.

"BUT, i would FAR RATHER have Cocoa on a murder trial jury, because it appears that he or she is willing to look at the whole picture, DETAILS and all, and not judge, without looking CLOSELY at the details"

In fact my impression is that the opposite is true. I find the attitude that fighting back is wrong to be complacent, frightened and week. Frightened of taking responsibility, action and the opinion of what others will think.

These are very bad attitudes to have when it comes to politics as well as business and many other facets of life. You may not ruffle any feathers but you will constantly be at the mercy of these who are more assertive.


TO say you are glad you don't have to be on a jury is shirking your duty and showing a lack of confidence in your ability to discern the truth and help uphold our laws.

[Bluerthanblue]

177. there are ways to

fight back, that do not necessitate using the tactics or 'means' that you are fighting AGAINST-

i don't see cowardace in Cocoa's posts- or the fear of condmnation- he's been condemned tarred and feathered for having the balls to speak up, even though what he had to say was not something folks wanted to hear-

Gandhi fought- he fought with all he had and then some-
But not by doing what he believed was wrong as the instrument-

this horse has been beaten to death- we've all voiced our perspectives, and many of us dis-agree. Are any of us 'more right? or more wrong?"-

i don't believe so-

Cocoa ruffled alot of feathers by saying 'positive' things-
But i'm reminded that even the 'best' dog will bite his beloved 'human companion' when wounded- it's not an action taken because of malice- it is a natural response to pain-

and i'm condemning NO ONE-

to say you are glad not to be on a jury is not something BAD-
it is speaking his truth- and if his truth is that he wouldn't want to hold 'judgement' over another persons life or death, then that is his right-

What really scares me, to be honest are those who believe they hold the only 'keys' to truth, and justice, and 'right'ness- That is what this world is living at the mercy of right now- and the poison of the arrogance, greed, and self-righteousness of this administration has polluted us ALL.

laws mean little anymore- laws mean nothing- if we side with 'law' over what we believe to be 'right' then we are traitors to all that matters- and i'm talking our deepest innermost thoughts- not those disguised by 'denial' 'lust' 'self-righteousness' 'greed' etc.

i could never condemn even a clearly 'guilty' murderer to death.
because in my innermost being, if it is wrong to end another persons life, there is no excuse for me to do the same. especially in a methodical, premeditated way-

but i'm a bleeding heart liberal fool- and i'm not ashamed to admit that, and am honestly- VERY HONESTLY willing to die for that stance.


E=mc 2 is something i cannot grasp-

THIS, however is:
A human being is part of a whole, called by us the ‘Universe,’ a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings, as something separated from the rest—a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circles of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty.

and both enlightened statements came from the same 'crazy man'
an Einstien.

[all.of.me]

43. yup. there are a couple of decent folks there,

putting aside politics and being genuinely polite about a death. but for the most part, that page disgusted me. i can't believe there are people so full of hate. they really just hate themselves and need to project it onto others.

[wtmusic]

10. This post was also on the thread:

"Damn, I sure hope he knows, knew Jesus. I wonder if the cause is the fact that they (Doctors) waited so long between diagnosis and action?

What sucks is that as far as the Doctors are concerned, the surgery was a success.

Prayers for Andy and his family and his friends.

I don't think now is a time for ghoulish conspiracies. Damn, I though they got it all, I wonder what he died from?"

I've had enough of this catty, back-and-forth "look what the freepers said today" crap. There are some which are at least able to put aside politics for a moment when a person has passed away, ferchrissakes. If you want to paint with that brush because they're freepers, be my guest. :eyes:

[mzmolly]

53. I'm sick of the attacks on Andy. If you want to take this moment to

defend their next plan of action ... be MY guest. :eyes:

Yes SOME can put aside politics, others are planning their next smear. Pardon me if I felt this was worthy of keeping an eye on.

If you don't like this thread, hide it.

[noiretextatique]

13. i know what you mean

just when you think you couldn't be more disgusted... :puke:

[greatauntoftriplets]

19. Free Republic....

:puke:

[shireen]

26. these people are demented freaks!!!

I have yet to see *anyone* in DU or in other progressive forums rejoicing in the death or illness of any right-winger! For those morons to make up stories like that is sick. Then they self-righteously wish Andy to Rest in Peace. What hypocrites!!!

[Lydia Leftcoast]

28. I have, but they've been in the minority

:-)

[Cocoa]

29. I think the DU moderators would disagree

at times they are kept pretty busy deleting hateful posts at DU about dying or dead right wingers.

[merh]

33. Odd

Odd defending freepers and trashing DUers.

:freak:

[Spazito]

35. Gosh, I had the same thought, it is interesting to be sure

:freak:

[merh]

48. Gee, some folks just become so transparent.

:freak:

[Cocoa]

36. also odd...

that those freepers I quoted "defended" Andy and "trashed" freepers.

I guess both sides have traitors.

Or, alternatively, there are some on both sides that see things differently.

[merh]

39. Tell us how you really feel.

I didn't use the word traitor, that is YOUr word. Seeing things differently and holding old grudges seem to be what make some folks happy and fuel their continued efforts to downplay the evil that harmed one of OUR OWN. Me, I would prefer to recognize the danger of the hate and the morally reprensible positions that these people have taken concerning, first, a sick man, and now, a dead man, than to defend their ilk. But that is just me. I'm human, some folks are not.

Just so very odd.

[bettyellen]

104. or some people go back and forth for kicks and to stir up shit....

because it's all a social outlet for them.

[mogster]

127. I think the 'odd' thing here

Is your reaction.

You don't seem to be grieving much over Andy's passing. In fact, I was. But then I see people trying to excuse the behaviour that made his last days hell on earth.

You have an attitude.

[skids]

38. Personally I think the only reason to delete them...

...is to avoid flame wars messing up the boards.

Look, these "folks" like to emphasise that they are disgusted by the occasional DUer flying off the handle when a right winger kicks the bucket. And obviously we can see where the chips really lie because here at DU most people are polite about such things, whereas over there the polite ones are the minority.

But those people who say "good riddance" are not just impolite, they are also the messengers of our shared vitriolic rejection of the right wing. There needs to be a hint of malice -- the heartless ones over there need to know that we have access to rage, because duress is the only thing they understand. While these people are only deluding themselves when they choose to believe that being a right winger ingratiates them to the powerful and that they are then part of the elite (the reality being the elite will use them and discard them like anyone else) but that is what they believe. And power, even imagined power, concedes nothing without demand. Sure, it feeds into their mythical persecution complex, but that persecution complex will be there with or without a few DU posts to point at... as we've seen the noise machine will manufacture evidence of whatever they want their minions to believe.

Negative emotions, when controlled and directed, can be a good thing. It's only when they dominate us that they become counterproductive.

That said, moderators have a duty to keep spats from exploding to the point of ruining user's access to other material. So it's fine IMO that they clean up these things.

[Cocoa]

40. I personally don't think that's the reason

the way I see it, the admins have an idea of what they want DU to be, and those posts ain't it.

[AuntPatsy]

93. I understand what your trying to do but in all honesty, it won't

work simply because the base of those people preach nothing but hate for anyone and anything that they do not agree with....

I read all those posts and more, and like you I saw some express sympathy, a little too late if you ask me, and let me get to the heart of the matter why I refuse to take their sympathy to heart..

Andy was gay, some are only now finding this information out, and after having witnessed the past several years the countless horrific expressions of hostility towards the gay community from that community, I guarantee that secretly they will believe he deserved it, I know this for fact because I have heard such said more times than I care to remember..

If someone is trully sorry for inflicting hate and disparaging remakrs on someone, they should begin by denouncing such actions while people are alive, not after they have gone and should have immediately gave up membership in a club that condones such actions that attack others simply because they live a slightly different lifestyle from themselves...

Your trust is misplaced I assure you, they are no better than a nest of vipers that will strike you when you least expect it..

And for those freepers who might be reading this, you know in your heart that you cannot deny such, if your trully sorry for Andy's death, then do something in his honor, stand up for him against those that sought to destroy him and not simply because of his partisan leanings...

[Cocoa]

97. Andy posted at Free Republic

he conducted some of his activism there. Bev Harris too.

And this was appropriate, voting rights can be done as a bipartisan issue.

The reason I bring this up is that you may see "that community" as utterly irreconcilable with any gay person, that's fine. But Andy didn't, for what it's worth. Maybe he held his breath when he did it, I have absolutely no idea. But the fact that he posted there suggests that he didn't hold the same view of them being totally unredeemable that you're expressing.

[AuntPatsy]

100. And more power to him, but you cannot deny nor I promise you

did Andy not realize what they thought of not only his politics but his private lifestyle, he was an activisit, a good one, and as such, he went into the lions den so to speak attempting to connect, that took alot of courage as you can imagine, but it does not deter from the fact that what I said if very true..

He may have been a member in an attempt to get more people to listen and understand his cause, but how does that in any way shape or form deny that what I stated about that mindset is true?

I know these people, I am married to one, believe me, I know what I am talking about.

[Cocoa]

105. in all affection, ROFL

seriously, I think you and I agree to some extent. What I'm ROFLing about is the fact that you are married to one. Maybe I shouldn't laugh, maybe it's a bad situation, hopefully it just makes things interesting.

The one exception I can think of, which I haven't mentioned, to my central argument the anti-Andy movement was not motivated out of hatred, is several posts at FR that made reference to AIDS. That, imo, is worthy of about ten times the outrage that's happening. The fact that FR hasn't deleted those posts and that other freepers aren't protesting (as far as I could see) is pretty damning to FR as an institution.

[bettyellen]

107. " anti-Andy movement was not motivated out of hatred" ???

wow, you topped yourself: most cluess post ever.

[AuntPatsy]

110. Well it's not exactly very funny, we don't discuss politics often

I promise you, he is an avid FAUX viewer and I honestly believe that he has in some way been hypnotized, I have given him PROOF mind you, over and over again about the lies they spew frequently, he usualy just blows me off...

The other day, I can't recall what was said by me, but it was something really simple and all of a sudden he burst out in real anger saying I hated America? Shheessh, well, though I shut him up pretty quickly, the fact that he said such which is often spouted by the insance talking idiots on FAUX about Liberals was very telling, he knows me better than anyone in this world, and yet, out of the blue, he states something he very well knows if bullshit..

It doesn't matter that he backtracked, the point is, he parroted what he has heard about Liberal thinking and at me of all people? After all this time, it seriously made me marvel at the mindset of those who remain clueless in the face of factual information in that they are still very much in existance...

Not ONE of my children follow his politics, and yet, he refuses to budge on his belief that what FAUX states as news worthy factual data is not worth debating about that they might indeed be lying..

It's not a rolling on the floor laughing situation Cocoa, it's downright chilling at times that some refuse to see reality even when it hits them in the face....

Anyone who remains a member at the place is in the same mindset as he of that I have no doubt...your trust is misplaced period..

[RetroLounge]

157. "not motivated out of hatred"

WTF? Are you stupid or just ignorant?

RL

[mzmolly]

166. Cocoa, you are very apologetic about the "Anti-ndy" movement here.

Care to share more of what you know?

Are you the admin who claims to be a DUer and a Gore voter at the site motivated out of love/concern for Andy and the American public?

My post is NOT about Republicans per se. And that is NOT who Aunt Patsy was referring to. She/me were referring to the "Anti-Andy" movement that you feel is so noble.

Now, do share with us the "motivation" of those your continually defending here. I'd like to know what it is because after spending a day at scumdy.com I can't find the kind "motivation" of which you speak. What I do find is many of the same curious statements by YOU and THEM. Many of the justifications they use to slander a now 'deceased' man are what you use hear for rationale.

PS - Cat got your tongue? You've not responded to one of my posts.

[bettyellen]

103. andy got kicked out and please don't try and project what andy might

have thought ot felt about anything. you are nothing like him at all. you're not going to even come close by guessing.

[mzmolly]

106. But he didn't post at the smear sites about him.

Which is the issue here.

[bettyellen]

108. exactly. who the hell is she imagining what andy might have thought...

that takes a certain abesence of brains and empathy.

[mogster]

128. You seem to be

Almost frenetic concerned about the admins here, the mods here, and what they think?

Care to elaborate?

[mzmolly]

61. Oh please.

Give it a rest.

[RetroLounge]

156. and also deleting posts by so-called DU'ers

who are really trolls.

just saying...

RL

[AngryWhiteLiberal]

31. "We need to start pushing a story that Freepers harbor pedophiles..."

What the hell, why not? Pedophile labels are pretty hard to shake and it would cut to the heart of their christofascist bullshit and paint them brightly for the hypocrites that they are...

JB

[libnnc]

42. Works for me...

Hey did you hear that Freepers harbor pedophiles?

Seeing as most peds are white, many are "x-tian", and are heteros. They wanna play nasty whisper games?


Bring. It. On. Fuckers.

And I say that with all the love left in my heart.

edit to add message in a loving way

[AngryWhiteLiberal]

46. I've heard that some are using peer-to-peer software to distribute porn.

Keeping it alive. Those nasty sex offender Freepers.

JB

[Pepperbelly]

55. I bet most have those little perv mustaches ...

That's a dead giveaway.

[chalky]

32. You may want to hang onto that link or get a screenshot.

Then, when this new "plan" gets legs, we can counter with the genesis whenever and where ever we have to.

[mzmolly]

66. I like that idea, but I don't know how.

:shrug:

[chalky]

75. For a screen shot--pull up the page and scroll until the offending post is

visible. Then hold down the "Alt" button while hitting the "Print Screen" button (usually at the top right of your keyboard). Pull up a blank Word document. Click on "edit" on the toolbar, then "paste". Then save, save, save that puppy (you may want to type the link onto your page for reference).

To hang onto the link, just save it to your favorites. (Or heck, you could just click on the search tab above and do an advanced search for posts made under your userID here in DU, since your original post with that link will be saved for posterity for who knows how long. :) )

[mzmolly]

78. Cool, thanks!!!

:hi:

[rumpel]

37. I now went to their site for a second time. Those posters are neither

Repubs nor show any glimpse of a decent people. Much of it is incoherent, just venom.
I guess there are people, who take great pride and joy in looking down on everyone, ridicule and bully.
There seems to be no valid purpose or logical reasononing, and if there is, it is not expressed.
Not a particularly attractive character trait, isn't it.

I feel sorry for them for being so self-absorbed and blinded.


on edit:

:puke:

[spanone]

49. That's a scary place to go. Where the brain-dead roam.

[alittlelark]

51. OK... I clicked the link. I was disgusted.

Those ppl are waaaay gone.

There was one post that I found interesting, because it took the worst reactions of DUers over at least 1 years time and tried to equate it to this situation.

I understand the point that was being made, but they sure had to look far and wide for anything even close to their level of fear/hatred.....




To: Politicalities; PJ-Comix; franksolich
I know I shouldn't do this, but I just can't resist. DUmmie J Durango came here to lecture us about karma and everything, so I got to thinking and decided to post the following. Unfortunately, the thread was pulled before I could post, but here goes...

Since DUmmies are so into alternate realities, let's take a look at what would have been said if Andy Stephenson were a conservative and it was being reported on DU:

" don't care what killed him, pancreatic cancer or the black plague, i'm glad he's dead and i don't care how many times i'm scolded or chastised for it." -DUmmie mopaul's reaction to Pres. Reagan's death, slightly adjusted to fit the situation

"Andy Stephenson Does Not Deserve Compassion"- headline of DU article by Dave Conroy regarding Rush Limbaugh's lack of hearing

"Lucifer has cancer..." No change needed, DUmmie nothingshocksmeanymore, in response to Laura Ingraham's breast cancer.

This brief look at an alternative reality brought to you by Hypocrisy: For when you just don't have any damned original ideas.

[uppityperson]

52. This discussion has turned odd, I think I am missing background

Background between DUers. I looked at the OP's freeper link earlier and was surprised at the number of decent postings there. Yes, there were nasty ones, but I was surprised at the number of nice ones, especially having seen how vile it usually is there. I have looked occasionally when someone here posts a link, hesitated before clicking this one today as I really have extremely little tolerance for BS right now and didn't want to see what crap they were posting.

Reading all the replies here before mine, I don't understand why some people are getting jumped on for saying this same thing. I think I may be missing some background on interactions between some DUers.

[mzmolly]

57. The reason I posted this is not to demonstrate that freepers suck.

It's because they are talking of another SMEAR campaign.

And, some at the smear andy site claim to be "DU-ers" seeking truth.

They are scum.

FOR THE RECORD, I POSTED HERE ABOUT THE KIND WORDS FROM THOSE ON THE RIGHT AS WELL.


Fpr example:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=4044415&mesg_id=4045879

My intention is not to start a turf war, it's to be mindful of what might come next from a handful of creeps.

[uppityperson]

58. That's what I took it as. Kind of deteriorated

People are, well, people, I guess. Some are jerks, some are decent.

[mzmolly]

63. Exactly, and some JERK is suggesting a second smear on Andy

The comment in my OP wasn't the most vile post I could find on Andy's passing, it's not about highliting the monsters at FR, it's a heads up - period.

[Cats Against Frist]

129. Uh...you can't say anything

If you make any sort of criticism, or ask any questions, you either get told to "fuck off," or you're a freeper. The supporters in this thread repeatedly, and unabashedly lied to me, called me names, and tried to deconstruct my psychological state, because I didn't think that asking DU members to "dig deep in their pockets," for a private cause (where other resources may have been available), amidst so much other pain and suffering, and bringing this sick and painful drama, home to roost, on DU, was anything less than an excellent thing to do.

Irrationality has ruled the day, here, both before and since Andy's death. Any person with a semblance of working brain cells has to ask themselves, "why ramp up all this drama?" This person, so loved, had his supposed best friends questioning him (how well can you know a friend, if you're not even sure if he's sick), but anyone else who does is a freeper, a scumbag or has a psychological problem.

My best assessment of the situation is don't attempt to make any critique, reasoned comments, or attempt to find out the truth, or ask important questions. There is no "truth," and this is a good example of why there isn't.

[EFerrari]

130. You're wrong, there is "truth" and no matter how hard you

misrepresent your posts and the responses you received in that thread, the truth persists.

And we've long known the truth here, at DU. Apparently, you haven't noticed. Or, maybe you've been away.

[Name removed]

132. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[goodboy]

135. It wasn't enough to insult Andy and Ted by saying they should 've

sold their house and car to pay for the surgery...now you're insulting those of us who tried to help Andy?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4049596#4050335

remember that?

[Cats Against Frist]

137. I remember

I remember asking if he had any assets and being blown off, lied to and called heartless.

[goodboy]

138. You implied by your statements that Andy didn't need our help

you tried to delegitimize what we did because you thought Andy was "well off"

[goodboy]

141. I take that back...you didn't imply, you declared:

Cats Against Frist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Fri Jul-08-05 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #187
191. Well, can I ask one question?

Did he have a house, in Seattle, that he could have liquidated, and a car?

I did not want to get into specifics, but, as long as you're telling me that I'm wrong, I want to be sure that I'm wrong about what I might be wrong about.

[Cats Against Frist]

144. Declarative sentences don't usually end in question marks.

Look, goodboy, I believe that Andy was very sick, had a malignancy, and died from surgical complications. I believe the people who started a take-down site probably relished, a bit, in trumpeting their cause, just as you have been irrational, predatory, mean, accusatory, ad nauseaum, in defending yours.

I am a perfectly sane, rational person, who happened to become interested in this, after I saw a gang of sharks attack a poster who simply asked a couple of questions. And, repeatedly gang up and attack anyone who might suggest that this fundraiser could have been handled better, or that it might not be a good thing for DU, OR that there may have been other routes, for funding, available.

Do you mean to tell me that you think that the fundraiser, its aftermath, the behavior of the actors, the secretiveness and now, a full-fledged, public campaign, which is STILL using DU resources to plan revenge is, in anyway, overall, a good thing?

I don't doubt what you did was well-meaning. I just think it's kind of fucked up.

[goodboy]

147. here's one without the question mark:

You can think whatever the fuck you want about me, but it seemed crass, to me, to be asked, as activists, Democrats and DU Members, to "digging deep in our pockets," for a cause celebre of some outspoken people, on this site. Especially when the person in question MAY have had plenty of resources at his/her fingertips.

[Cats Against Frist]

149. Yes, I still agree with that statement.

[Cats Against Frist]

150. Oh & don't bother responding

I've not only had to hear what you have to say to anyone who asks questions, over and over again, all over the web, but I've said all I needed to say.

The other day, I had a concern. I was attacked. Now, I'd rather just point out the inconsistencies, for the record, and not get involved in a flame war.

[goodboy]

158. point out

my inconsistancies please.

[goodboy]

167. this one too?

dietcherryvanilla
Joined: 10 Jul 2005
Posts: 1







Has ANYONE ever addressed the house in Seattle, or the $70,000 inheritance? I can't find any evidence of it, except for people conveniently dodging the issue. If they can't be honest about one little thing, what right do they have to be screaming "murder," from the roof tops?
_____________________________________________----
sounds quite familiar

[Cats Against Frist]

178. Yeah, I went to Scamdy

Friday, after posters repeatedly lied about, told me to fuck off, and danced around my simple question.

And I registered, and I posted one post, to see if anyone knew anything about that. You can watch to see if I post anything else, and if I've encrypted the codewords "I LOVE BUSH" into my posts, so you can pretend I'm anything else other than a fed-up DUer, who think this circus is a mockery.

We'll see if I get any answers. His friends aren't exactly forthcoming, though the questions come from words the man typed, himself.

And, yeah, I do wonder what right people who can't be honest with a community that they asked for money, and continue to use space on, to cook up revenge, have asking for someone else's Internet recklessness to be prosecuted, by law. For murder, nonetheless.

Good detective work there, scrappy. I've also seen your work, all over the net. A real stand-up guy.

[goodboy]

179. I am a stand up guy.. I stood up for my friend. (nt)

[Cats Against Frist]

182. Goodboy, that's fine

and I wish that I could have had a real discussion with you, before you jumped in and told me to fuck off, or fuck you, or whatever it was, yesterday. You seem like a very passionate person. That typified a lot of the reactions that I've seen from Andy's close supporters, to anyone who asked any questions. Not all questioners are the ringleaders behind Scamdy, neccesarily doubt that Andy was a good person (because even if the very worst possibilities, in my mind, are true -- he's still a human being, and we all do things that aren't morally clearheaded, or, for that matter, should have to), or didn't want him to get the surgery, or wanted to attack him.

My bullshit detector went off, a loooooong time ago, with Andy. It just got worse, with the fundraiser, the ensuing chaos, the questions, and the defensiveness of his friends. Not as a result of the sickness, or the fundraising, per se, but because of the actions of the people surrounding Andy, and the question of whether or not he had other resources. I'm sorry, and, for my own peace of mind, I tried to pursue it, the other day, and was either guilted, called names or people just find some reason to blow me off. When you guys came here, and asked for money, on DU, publicly, it became, to some extent, the business of everyone here.

I wanted to donate to your friend, and like I've said, when they name a charity, I will probably donate to the charity, in his name. I'm sorry he died. It was surprising, and it shocked me. I paged through his photo album, and felt sorry for him. He looked like a livewire, and someone who people would probably stand up for, and, perhaps love blindly. And maybe, because he deserved it. I'm not saying he didn't. It's a shame that that gets lost within all the broughaha.

[goodboy]

183. you make me want to puke all over you. (nt)

[Cats Against Frist]

185. Thank you for posting a very representative sample

of exactly what I'm talking about.

[goodboy]

186. least I could do for a scamdy.com member. (nt)

[Cats Against Frist]

187. and a freeper, and a bushlover, and an andy hater....

and a cold-hearted, crazy person who is lonely and jealous...

:eyes:

Blood in the water is all you're attempting. I hope you get what you're looking for, because it will only illustrate my point, more.

[goodboy]

180. my god. (nt)

[mogster]

154. So, now that he's dead

You're bringing that back up again?

Recommendable.

[Cats Against Frist]

148. Oh, and for the record

the post was deleted, and I didn't personally insult anyone. I just said that the organizers were reckless and disorganized.

[mzmolly]

168. Friends who raised money for a man in need were "wreckless and

disogranized?" Do you think crossing t's and dotting i's is the first priority when a friend is dying and needs help.

HOWEVER

They were not wreckless and disorganized, any paperwork that was needed was due at the fiscal year end. That year end could have been determined at any time Andy's friends saw fit, yet to qwell rumors such as the one you just spread on behalf of the trolls, they filed and the paperwork was received on July 1st at the Washington Sec of States office.

So share with me what EXACTLY was wreckless, and I want YOUR proof!

[Cats Against Frist]

175. Molly, no offense, but you're not seeing the forest for the trees, here

Are you joking?

Since we love to compare this to the kid on the penny jar at the gas station, how many of those fundraisers do you think end up with thousands of people tuning in to see what's going to happen next. OK, so it's the Internet. For that matter, how many Internet fundraisers are vaulted to this level of exposure? How many Internet fundraisers have Pay Pal locking accounts and lawsuits being threatened to anyone who so much as makes a *peep* about inconsistencies, or the ridiculousness, of it all? How many Internet fundraisers have people asking so many questions? How many Internet fundraisers have people lie and equivocate and flame and attack anyone who merely points out a couple of well-documented facts? How many fundraisers have the people's supposed "best friends," leading public charges against them, resulting in a lockdown of discussion, and a complete circus on a web site that has 60,000 some members, many of whom pay to support political discussion? How many fundraisers treat people with questions with "It's none of your goddamn business?" How many people who question a fundraiser get immediately told to fuck off, are diagnosed with twenty different emotional and mental disorders, and "warnings" that it would be wise if they just "shut up?"

Maybe it doesn't matter to some people, but it matters to me. I worked in social services in Washington, and some of my best friends work at homeless shelters and mental hospitals. I've worked with little kids and families, who cannot work, and need resources, sick and well. If they had anything to fall back on, it would have been a fucking miracle. And every dollar paid to someone who may have other resources takes away from takes away from people who have nothing to fall back on, besides their cardboard hovel, under the Aurora bridge.

[mzmolly]

181. Most of your questions don't apply to this case.

But, I have a few that do.

How many people who are dying of cancer are accused of being scam artists?

How many friends of terminally ill people are supposed to continually appease people accusing said friend of scamming?

How many people still refuse to shut down websites/discussions that continue accusing a now dead man of scamming people?

You say "maybe IT doesn't matter to some people, but IT matters to me" ... what is IT exactly?

I'll tell you what MATTERS TO ME, what matters to ME is that Andy was slandered/called a liar and no amount of proof - andythanksyou.com was enough to appease the lying slanderers.

As for the families you worked WITH, I come from one. And I refuse to defend the actions of people who won't to accept the fact that liberals helped a friend in need, no matter the guise for their bitterness/evil/slander. If you worked with families in need you shouldn't be bitter about friends choosing helping a friend in need. I fail to see your anaolgy. Wasn't Andy downtrodden enough for you?

[Cats Against Frist]

184. Look, I'm new to this

I didn't follow this that closely, all along, and got my ass chewed, the other day, for asking questions. That was fine, and I thought maybe the timing was inappropriate. Then his supporters decided to abandon discussion, altogether, and call me a freeper and sick, and that I should fuck off. I even apologized for the timing. So, I read some more, all over the Internet, about the situation, and, came to believe that, even though I believe Andy was sick, that neither the Scamdy people, nor his supporters took the high road. This could have been cleared up, a long time ago, with some honesty, and discussion. There are questions any rational person would ask themselves. And, if you read my below exchange with sfexpat, you'll also see that they continue to equivocate -- and change the argument or issue, randomly, to fit any criticisms.

I accept the fact that people came together. I have no problem with that. Being a libertarian socialist/minarchist, I believe in people helping other people, and I believe in self-started nonprofit health insurance "circles," as an alternative to state-run healthcare. I think it's nice that people donate. I also think it simply could have been done a lot better, and his "spokespeople" could have handled questions from those who were suspicious, in a much more graceful manner. I am disturbed that there are questions about his & his partner's net worth -- typed by his own hand. Why? Because it's a question, and I'm a rationalist. And I WAS asked, as a member of DU, for money, for this cause. Repeatedly.

I don't know how downtrodden Andy was. I believe he was ill, and his friends helped him, and that, unfortunately, there's much, much more to the story -- both good and bad. And, unfortunately, there will be STILL be more to the story.

[mzmolly]

188. This was cleared up A LONG TIME AGO! And if your new to this

you should move on to discussions which your qualifed to comment on.

I don't believe there is BAD to this story, and as someone who's "new to this" you should take you time to learn before accusing Andy or his friends/family of lying ie. "bad" things.

[EFerrari]

140. Please enumerate for me

my lies and quivocations.

Please show how I was slipshod and hotheaded, reactionary and irrational.

Please show the lies, refusals to be accountable and the obessions for "taking down" Andy's detractors.

[Cats Against Frist]

142. Good boy already linked the thread

Posts 198 to 204. Lying AND equivocation.

Also, someone jumped all over a person, yesterday, who suggested that Andy died from surgical complications.

And then there's the matter of Andy never asking for donations, which is a lie.

[EFerrari]

143. But I didn't ask goodboy, I asked you. And I can wait for

your reasoned and truthful response.

I said more than once, that Andy did not start our fundraiser for his surgery, that he did not raise those funds. I did. And that is true.

Next.

[Cats Against Frist]

145. You can't look up two posts for a link?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4049596#4050335

as I said, read the posts.

Also, read the breathless "Andy never asked for anything!" post, below that one. Or the several.

And I didn't say it was all you.

And, I didn't say that, fundamentally, deep down, that there was anything wrong with putting on a fundraiser, for your friend. It's just the way you've chosen to do it, and how people have acted in the aftermath, and how people get attacked for asking any questions.

[EFerrari]

151. I've asked you some simple direct questions. Will you answer them?

[Cats Against Frist]

152. So, now you're just going to pretend that you can't hear me?

In one post, you didn't know if he had a house. In the next, you knew, suddenly that the equity wasn't there, which DIRECTLY CONTRADICTS statements that Andy made on this site.

If you want to make the argument that Ted shouldn't have, or didn't want to sell his house (a small house in North Seattle is quite a thing to have -- we should all be so lucky), to pony up for his partner's surgery, that's fine. But it's relevant -- and a different argument.

And I've read, at this site, in every post where someone asks questions the "Andy didn't ask for anything," "meme," which is a lie. I see what you're saying when you say "Andy didn't ask for any money for his fundraiser." Right from the Karl Rove playbook.

That's the definition of equivocation.

I think you're missing the point. I have nothing against Andy, and neither wanted to see him be sick, or die. I think it's very sad. I looked at his pictures, yesterday, in the photo album, and cried, a little. I'm probably going to give to the charity that they designate -- have they, yet? -- in his name. Because I AM human, and I care. I also know that you have great grief, and for that, I'm sorry. None of that changes the facts of the situation, however.

[EFerrari]

153. Show me where the pretense lies. - we'll just add it to your list.

In one post, you didn't know if he had a house.

* No, I didn't know if the property was his. There is a legal and a financial difference. And, it was none of my or of your business.

In the next, you knew, suddenly that the equity wasn't there, which DIRECTLY CONTRADICTS statements that Andy made on this site.

* I know Andy didn't have the assests to pay for his surgery, which includes any accrued equity on a property that he might or might not have had access to. And, I'd like to see Andy's statements.

If you want to make the argument that Ted shouldn't have, or didn't want to sell his house (a small house in North Seattle is quite a thing to have -- we should all be so lucky), to pony up for his partner's surgery, that's fine. But it's relevant -- and a different argument.

* Could Ted could accomplish the liquidation of a house in the 100 hours JH gave me to find cash? No, even had the equity been there.

And I've read, at this site, in every post where someone asks questions the "Andy didn't ask for anything," "meme," which is a lie. I see what you're saying when you say "Andy didn't ask for any money for his fundraiser." Right from the Karl Rove playbook.

*Ad hominem and false. Go to the fundraising threads. I raised that money with help from other DUers.

That's the definition of equivocation.

*No, that's the truth.



I think you're missing the point. I have nothing against Andy, and neither wanted to see him be sick, or die. I think it's very sad. I looked at his pictures, yesterday, in the photo album, and cried, a little. I'm probably going to give to the charity that they designate -- have they, yet? -- in his name. Because I AM human, and I care. I also know that you have great grief, and for that, I'm sorry. None of that changes the facts of the situation, however.

* No, I agree. None of that changes the facts of the situation.

* And, you've several other charges to unpack. I can wait.

[Cats Against Frist]

160. The facts are there, for all to see

and yes, it's everybody's business. Whether they donated or not. Andy and his friends made it everybody's business. If a person belongs to a message board that has been clogged, for months, with megadrama, and they've been asked, as a DU member, to give money -- I think that the forthrightness of the cause is everyone's business. I think that whether or not the person had access to other funds is everybody's business.

If people wanted to give, freely, despite any inconsistencies, and they're happy -- fine -- that's their business. If people don't care if Andy had resources, that's fine.

I asked, in my post, why it was that I couldn't donate. It's not that I don't care about people, it's not that I don't have the normal empathy for a sick person, and it's not that I don't donate, or any other crackpot excuse that someone wants to pin on me. I didn't feel right about it. I didn't say anything about it, or start a site decrying him. I didn't say one word about him, while he was alive, or contribute to either his sickness or his pain. Now, someone above is telling me that I can't speak out, after his death. That, too, is a Rovian technique. (and the above was not an ad hominem, by the way).

"To dig deep in one's pockets," as a plea for a dying man is a serious thing. Illness is a serious matter. Lots of DU members have loved ones who are sick, or have been, and lots of people don't have health insurance, and lots of people have hard times. Lots of people have NOTHING.

There are other ways to do things like this, that are more respectful of the people of whom you're asking help. To ask for money, on one hand, and say "it's nobody's business," and ATTACK AND ATTACK AND ATTACK, anyone who speaks out is ultra-lame, and rude. I simply stated my position, which I think I have a right to, as a member, and was lied to, told to fuck off, and personally attacked. I have also not attempted to pursue any conversations with anyone who hasn't lied to, goaded me, or cursed me, in some way.

The thing is, this saga hasn't ended with his death. There's talk of lawsuits and tarnishings and whatever. It doesn't look to get anything but escalated. It's out of hand, and it's been out of hand, the whole time.

I think, in all the posts that I've made, I've sketched out my reasons for being a little disgruntled. Lies and name-calling, made me go research the facts even further. My concerns are valid, and I've neither questioned the diagnosis, or said anything bad about Andy. I've just watched the behavior. And I think it's appauling. And people can call my critique inappropriate, or whatever. Rubber, glue, whatever.

Look, I'm not going to address every point -- it's out there, and people full well know about it, but Washington State is notorious for its state healthcare program. They will cover a lot of people, and have a great health insurance plan for people who can't pay regular premiums. From what I know, personally, keeping one's finances separate, as a committed couple, has its advantages -- straight or gay. Just remember that every dollar stretches it out between more and more people, including those who have nothing, and NO access to resources.

Maybe I'm mad about a lot of things I'm "not sure about." But, apparently, no one deserves any answers, so it should be expected.

[mzmolly]

169. Unless you donated it isn't your business.

And you have not so why not spend your time fighting a real scam out there somewhere.

[EFerrari]

170. Yes, the facts are there.

and yes, it's everybody's business. Whether they donated or not. Andy and his friends made it everybody's business. If a person belongs to a message board that has been clogged, for months, with megadrama, and they've been asked, as a DU member, to give money -- I think that the forthrightness of the cause is everyone's business. I think that whether or not the person had access to other funds is everybody's business.

* I work at least two fundraisers a month put together by professionals. I've never seen anyone asking, "Are you sure you're down to your last dime before we do this?" Never.

Not Bread and Roses, not the Coalition on Homelessness, not national figures like Mike Pritchard.


If people wanted to give, freely, despite any inconsistencies, and they're happy -- fine -- that's their business. If people don't care if Andy had resources, that's fine.

* This does not address the charges you have made.

I asked, in my post, why it was that I couldn't donate. It's not that I don't care about people, it's not that I don't have the normal empathy for a sick person, and it's not that I don't donate, or any other crackpot excuse that someone wants to pin on me. I didn't feel right about it. I didn't say anything about it, or start a site decrying him. I didn't say one word about him, while he was alive, or contribute to either his sickness or his pain. Now, someone above is telling me that I can't speak out, after his death. That, too, is a Rovian technique. (and the above was not an ad hominem, by the way).

*This also doesn't address my questions.

"To dig deep in one's pockets," as a plea for a dying man is a serious thing. Illness is a serious matter. Lots of DU members have loved ones who are sick, or have been, and lots of people don't have health insurance, and lots of people have hard times. Lots of people have NOTHING.

*This also does not address the serious charges you have made.


There are other ways to do things like this, that are more respectful of the people of whom you're asking help. To ask for money, on one hand, and say "it's nobody's business," and ATTACK AND ATTACK AND ATTACK, anyone who speaks out is ultra-lame, and rude. I simply stated my position, which I think I have a right to, as a member, and was lied to, told to fuck off, and personally attacked. I have also not attempted to pursue any conversations with anyone who hasn't lied to, goaded me, or cursed me, in some way.


*While during the fundraiser and later, even now, I have no problem listening to people or answering questions. I have a problem with facts being twisted and certainly, with being slandered.

*This also doesn't address the charges you leveled in this thread.


The thing is, this saga hasn't ended with his death. There's talk of lawsuits and tarnishings and whatever. It doesn't look to get anything but escalated. It's out of hand, and it's been out of hand, the whole time.

*Still waiting.

I think, in all the posts that I've made, I've sketched out my reasons for being a little disgruntled. Lies and name-calling, made me go research the facts even further. My concerns are valid, and I've neither questioned the diagnosis, or said anything bad about Andy. I've just watched the behavior. And I think it's appauling. And people can call my critique inappropriate, or whatever. Rubber, glue, whatever.

* You have yet to show me or anyone a lie. And I am still waiting for you to resolve the charges in your now deleted post.

Look, I'm not going to address every point -- it's out there, and people full well know about it, but Washington State is notorious for its state healthcare program. They will cover a lot of people, and have a great health insurance plan for people who can't pay regular premiums. From what I know, personally, keeping one's finances separate, as a committed couple, has its advantages -- straight or gay. Just remember that every dollar stretches it out between more and more people, including those who have nothing, and NO access to resources.

*So, you are not going to address every charge you made against me, against Andy or against the people who fought to help him. That may be a wise choice.

* As far as WA state programs go, Andy had the best care they could offer. Even so, he was misdiagnosed in that very slow moving system at least three times and so lost precious time mounting a defense against his cancer.


Maybe I'm mad about a lot of things I'm "not sure about." But, apparently, no one deserves any answers, so it should be expected.

*False premise. I have given you ample space right here to clarify what is upsetting you. If you change your mind, we can continue this conversation at some other point.

*And I suggest that before you decide to slander and criticize people who are prostrate with grief, you have the decency to clarify your own position before you ask them to deal with it.

*It is certain the the fundraising done for Andy could have used more visible structure. We did the best we could with the time we had.

*And I think I can speak for all involved, to a man, we would do it again in a heartbeat.

[Cats Against Frist]

173. Oh good lord

Actually, I'm not exactly sure what the "serious charges," are, since I simply ASKED if Andy had other resources, and said his fundraising squad was slipshod. I've never said he wasn't sick. I've never said he didn't have cancer. I've never said he, himself, didn't, perhaps, need money, and I've made no insinuations on either his character, or his conduct.

You're not going to threaten me with shit, and you're not going to conflate me in with a bunch of people who may have, or attempt to discredit my very simple and perhaps inconsequential inquiry. I didn't do anything, and I didn't make any charges, except that his fundraising crew was making Andy's case and legacy worse for him. I don't know why the post got deleted, anyway. It wasn't a personal attack, it was a, I think, supported observation and opinion.

I know judges, and they don't like bullshit. Don't you think they get their fill of bullshit? If the people who questioned his illness actually shut down the pay pal account, and that was the sole reason that he is now dead -- by all means, go after them. But you're not going to "that may be a wise choice," me. Point the death squad somewhere else.

I've linked, pointed out, and explained THREE TIMES NOW, in this thread, where I think that inconsistencies, lies and equivocations occured. Why do I have to do this, again?

Friday, YOU said you didn't know if Andy's boyfriend had a house. Then, you came back, just a bit later, and said "the equity" wasn't there. And, from what I've been e-mailed, read on numerous sites, and searched the archives for, Andy stated, himself that the house had appreciated OVER 100 percent -- amongst other comments that he made, about how much money he had. There are arguments to be made that, yes, the partner couldn't have SOLD the house, but there are other avenues, such as an equity loan, or title loan. There are arguments that could be made as to whether or not the partner should have had to have sold/mortgaged his house, but that's a different topic, altogether.

That's number one -- lies and equivocations.

Number two: you and others are perpetuating a blurry meme that "Andy never asked for anything," which is a lie. Believe me, I understand your careful language -- "Andy never asked for money for his fundraiser," and I understand the purpose of this language. It is to equivocate.

Number three is that one of his close supporters, bettyellen -- I think -- jumped on a poster, yesterday for "insinuating" that Andy died from a complication of surgery, or an infection. The poster was immediately excoriated, and was told "HE HAD CANCER." No additional information was ever offered that he died from an infection.

This is within 48 hours that I witnessed this, personally. This is not to mention WEEKS AND WEEKS of endless threads with some of his "best friends" questioning him, he, himself, asking for money for numerous causes, and PLENTY of well-meaning, DU members, who DO NOT HATE ANDY and WHO ARE NOT FREEPERS, asking questions about the legitimacy of all sorts of things.

Your "excuses" above, do not change any of these facts, and no matter how many times we go round and round, it's not going to change them.

I'm sorry if I can't lay my feelings and questions out for you in a point-by-point, bulleted list. It's complicated. What it's based on, however, generally, is the best use of resources for those who are really in need.

[goodboy]

134. You again? (nt)

[Cats Against Frist]

136. Please consult the post above

as you were the primary inspiration.

[goodboy]

139. dietcherryvanilla? (nt)

[Cats Against Frist]

146. ?

[FreedomAngel82]

54. One thing I've never understud

is why do they give a damn? If someone wants to GIVE their money to someone else if it is a scam then that's their own problem. :eyes: These people are all losers and should be threatned for stalking or something.

[KelleyKramer]

62. This is getting worse than sickening

I've avoided these threads, mostly because I never knew Andy and have had a lot of close friends die young, its a terrible thing that nothing but time will heal.. a LOT of time.

But if this is true, these people are worse than scum.

Its not political, heck its not even 'personal' anymore.. its just sick.

I saw some good threads on DU last year with posts by psychologist about Bush being a narcissist.

It would be interesting to see what the same kind of analysis of this would be.. because this is some sort of serious mental/psychological problem.

I'm serious, its on a medical level, these are clinically sick and deranged people.

[stepnw1f]

90. I Agree

They seem disconnected to reality in a very dangerous way.

[gkhouston]

102. I think it must give them a sense of power

and that they have little or none in their real lives. :shrug:

[EFerrari]

131. Emerson had a good thread on the cultural aspects.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4055679

And here's another good one merh started:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=4061682&mesg_id=4061682


I personally think it is a trifecta: political, cultural AND pathological.

[Jack Rabbit]

111. Giving some credit where it is due

There are a number of posts there that call for others to be charitable in the face of those who grieve.

I would add, unfortunately, that I have seen a number of threads here that celebrate someone's death. They embarrass this site as much as some of the posts on that thread embarrass FR.

[AuntPatsy]

115. I have to wonder about some of those, flame bait perhaps?

Some attempting to embarress the people that come to this site? Not that I am saying that all so called Dems liberals and the like are great people the same as those on the other side of the aisle, but one thing if very clear even if some refuse to recognize it on here..

What they on the right advocate is intolerance of anyone and anything that does not side with their personal beliefs, what those on the left fight for is the right for everyone to live according to their own personal beliefs without fear of persecution...

This bullshit that Liberals attack christians is just another talking point from the right that some honestly believe and you and I know very well that such is out and out lies....

The anger from some on here towards those that wish to force their personal lifestyles on every single American citizen is the basis of this separation, those on the left are not demanding everyone on the right live by their rules, they are just demanding they everyone have the same rights as all Americans period, its so simple, its mind boggling how anyone can mistake the very core of the principals of being Liberal....

And why shouldn't we be angry? When you have people being ridiculed, beaten, and demeaned as human beings, is that not a call for someone to get enraged and demand such behaviors be STOPPED in it's tracks? It is the SAME exact thing those on the right believe they are doing when they stand so staunchly behind the ideology of warring with Iraq...

There is NO difference and any sane person could see the hypocrisy they represent...

[mzmolly]

117. True, but my post was meant as an alert to a possible smear,

nothing more.

I agree with you on the embarrassment thing. I have also been embarrassed at the celebration here of death/illness on occasion, but I always wonder if it's really a DU-er doing it frankly.

I have however, never seen a post remain where someone suggests slandering a man/woman who just passed away. Our mods would not allow it.

[Jack Rabbit]

119. I appreciate that, mzmolly

The fellow who wrote that over there should be ashamed of himself. If they do try to start a rumor like that, we'll know where it started.

And you're right, our mods wouldn't allow that. I've been a mod here.

And, unfortunately, some of those embarrassing posts here of which I speak come from long-time DUers in otherwise good standing.

My personal advice on these matters is that when some old right wing moron passes away, and there's nothing good to say about him, one should just observe a very long, stoney moment of silence. At least that avoids being disrespectful.

[mzmolly]

162. Agreed.

Even old morons have family.

[OneBlueSky]

121. "faked his own death for insurance reasons" . . .

kinda like Barbara Olsen, you mean? . . . although hers was undoubtedly for "national security" reasons . . . wonder how she and Ted are enjoying their vacation in Costa Rica . . .

on edit: sarcasm off . . . just in case . . . although the theory is no more far fetched than the "official" story of what happened on 9/11 . . .

[B Calm]

159. Have the republican party lost all their morals? Sick pathetic

BASTARDS!

[PaDUer]

161. Those whackjobs

should be sued, just like they sued the media in CA...Give them a taste of their own medicine.

[janx]

165. Hideous. But I can't access freeperland. It's gone or down

or something.

[Name removed]

172. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[unblock]

189. Locking

This thread has outlived its usefulness.

Unblock,
DU Moderator