Tha anti-rage, "not all Freepers are Bad" threads...

[baby_mouse]

Are making me angry.

The mirror model of the way DU and FR interact is specious, IMO. We are not a neatly symmetrical relationship of views.

Yeah, some freepers said some nice things. After months of crap.

Yeah, rage is destructive. If you aim it in the wrong place.

So guys, which is worse, saying something nasty about someone who's already dead on the Internet, or actually interfering with surgery they might need?

We are not in control of their behaviour. They are. We are not responsible for both our own behaviour and theirs.

IF we accept the mirror model as sensible, THEN:

If they think saying nasty things about Raygun was out of order, they have no place saying nasty things about Andy. That simple. Those who did are bad.

If they have no problem saying nasty things about Andy, they have no business calling DUers out on saying nasty things about Barbara whoever she is. That's hypocrisy.

What has happened is that someone's surgery has been interfered with.

EVERYTHING ELSE IS IRRELEVANT.

Forget the mirror model until one of OUR side has ACTIVELY BROUGHT ABOUT further suffering towards one of theirs.

FOCUS, FFS.

The issue of who is nastier about which side doesn't matter, it's what actually has been DONE that matters.

[BikeWriter]

1. Yes, and all republicans have abetted the murders in Iraq...

and the theft of America's wealth and freedom.

[Union Thug]

2. I don't have any love for the 'freepshow' either..

They actively work to undermine my basic values and the quality of life for me and my family. This makes them all, regardless of anything else, first and foremost, enemies. I don't care how polite they may be in a given social context, it's a ruse, a caricature of what good people should be, and a mask for their underlying contempt. F* 'em!

[baby_mouse]

3. Enablers, the lot of them n/t

[graywarrior]

4. I don't like that idiots elected a moron, either

but the hate spewing on boths sides is getting old. I'm just as angry, especially over the Andy situation, but when I read some comments made here, I don't see a lot of difference from what is being said over there.

Flame me if you must, but we seem to fight with one another at DU as much as we fight with them and it gets really ugly.

Take to the streets, not the boards. Nothing comes of it here.

[baby_mouse]

5. Actually , that's what I think

I don't disagree. I think what's DONE is what counts.

Certainly I've vented plenty on this board about the nastiness of RW, but it won't change anything. I was annoyed with all the wibbliness in the face of what is, AFAICT, an act of wilful malice rather than venting, is all.

You're right, spouting about it here won't help. Prosecuting them will.

[Don Claybrook]

6. I thought the Dalai Lama thread made a good point

I'm not nearly so spiritually advanced as the DL, but in a perfect world, we would seek to understand them and not burn so much energy on hating them. Since the world isn't perfect, it's sometimes fun to engage in "look at the idiot Freeper" discussions. However, there's nothing funny about this character assasination that it sounds like many of them were involved in.

But I do know that anger and hatred burn lots and lots of energy. I know that I've felt righteous anger at different points in my life, only to look back later and realize how all-consuming that anger was. Overall, I don't think it's very helpful, but it's certainly understandable.

[baby_mouse]

7. Yeah.

Again, that's true.

All the frothing about it on the boards, to me won't really solve anything. You're right, it's energy wasted. I DO think that the problem has to be solved, we simply can't let this sort of thing happen, but solving it comes from focus, not blind venting.

I just hope that people remember that something bad has actually happened, I wouldn't want to think that DUers simple throw out a blanket forgive-all thing at FR. That would be just as much a waste of energy.

[sendero]

18. I understand them perfectly..

.... that's not the problem. The problem is that I understand they are fearful, greedy, insular, believing everything their leaders say, venal, vindictive, uninterested in the facts surrounding any situation, douchebags.

The sad thing is that only after they get what they think they want will they realize what they have lost.

[Old sixties guy]

37. Sure,many of the right wing folks are petty spiteful people

but I have had MANY years of experience with Left wing causes and,man,the stupid drama is there as well.I go further back than a lot of you.Remember well the deep divisions in"the Movement"of the Sixties.Lots of finger pointing and name calling.Many relationships broken up because someone or other wasn't revolutionary enough.
I remember calling white friends of mine"racist"because they did not have the local soul music station on their radio choice selector!THATS how crazy it got back in those days!

[sendero]

38. I hear ya..

... I agree, leftists can be just as crazy. But they tend not to be the same kind of crazy.

Really, we could use a fews crazy leftists right about now :)

[in_cog_ni_to]

8. No DUer killed Barbara Olson, no DUer killed

Laura Ingraham and hasn't interfered with her cancer treatment, No Duer killed Ronald Reagan, No Duer killed Strom Thurmond, No Duer has EVER interfered with the medical care of ANY repuke at ANY time for ANY reason! They are murderers. Both here and abroad.

That is why I have stayed off of the "Let's all love and forgive the freeper threads" (If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all)...no fucking way. THEY are evil. PURE evil.

[mr blur]

9. Well said. nt

[orpupilofnature57]

10. Not all backward people are evil, but the outcome of their thinking is!!

[Eric J in MN]

11. My understainding at the time was that Andy had the money but

there was a mixup at the hospital about processing the check.

The $50,000 was raised quickly regardless of some saying it was a scam.

[baby_mouse]

12. Not wishing to plough through posts too deeply

But I thought there was some sort of impediment to the cash actually being raised, this impediment brought about by certain freepers?

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

13. Yes, the Paypal mechanism was interfered with due to idiots raising

questions with PayPal about the legitimacy of the fundraising. This caused some delay in the money coming through.

[baby_mouse]

14. Thanks for that n/t

[EFerrari]

19. They were also already out there sowing cr@p at KOS

and spamming my mailbox during the fundraising.

[goodboy]

27. I wonder how long

before Cocoa, or CAF shows up in this thread.

[baby_mouse]

29. From reading Cocoa's posts on the other threads

I hope he/she understands that nothing I've said here actually contradicts his/her position on this matter.

AFAIAC, Those who have apologised have apologised and we should take that sentiment at face value.

Those who have not, have not, and should be recognised and treated as such.

[formernaderite]

15. Rage is always destructive....

and is something the freepers seem full of. I'd rather not participate in rage.

[Jade Fox]

16. Reagan did terrible, stupid things.....

So has Bush. THAT's why we say "nasty" things about them. What did
Andy Stephenson ever do that was wrong?

Freepers just don't get this. We have good, well documented reasons
for disliking their "heros". Freepers, on the other hand, are just jealous,
hate-filled losers who have to try and destroy what they don't have:
talent, commitment, courage, principles, vison, compassion.

[Zenlitened]

22. Ding ding ding! We have a winner.

That's exactly where all the "equivalency" talk breaks down. Thanks for saying it so well. :)



(edit spelling)

[Jade Fox]

24. thank you

[Mythsaje]

17. I don't give a

rusty rat's ass about the freepers. I really don't. I despise what some of them did to Andy, but they have nearly no effect on how I approach my politics. I think they're wrong, and fundamentally flawed on an emotional level (lack of empathy), but, hey, my wife is similarly handicapped.

I'm more interested in moving the discourse forward than yelling or bitching at the emotionally challenged.

That's just me.

[indepat]

20. All freepers might not be bad but what all freepers do is bad for America

[tandot]

21. There are only two kinds of "good" freepers...

...ex-freepers and freepers who kicked the bucket.

I do NOT see FR as a "mirror model" of DU. Just because they have a few people who appear to show some conscience and say nice things every now and then, doesn't alleviate the fact that most freepers are un-American and have a complete lack of compassion, morals, and intellect. To say horrific things is one thing, it happens on DU, too. But to interfere with someone’s urgently needed medical treatment or to cause someone to lose his job is so despicable and vile, that I don’t consider them to be human beings. And to me, everyone still calling himself or herself a freeper, is guilty of association and apparently approves of what is going on over there.

I consider FR to be an un-American website. They stand for everything this country is not about. They burn the constitution with their anti-American hate-speech. They are Bush’s Gestapo, trying to silence critique and dissent. Many of them are anti-science and pro establishing a theocracy. They love their freedoms but have no qualms of taking away the freedoms of people who think or act differently then them.

Those few “nice” freepers don’t make a difference to me. If you associate with the lowest of scum, you are just one of them.

[Java]

23. Lead by Example

My late Cello Teacher who was a Russian Jew and fled Stalinist Russia, lived in Pre-WWII Nazi Germany before going on to England and then to America.

Told me that it was Hatred and Intolerance for other people that caused so many people to die.

If you are outraged by the behavior of some group you should lead by example.

[graywarrior]

25. The way I see it is that we are dividing and conquering ourselves

here at DU which causes a chain reaction in the world of some decent conservatives. Sometimes we sound like zealots here. Sorry, but that's how I see it. We are losing focus because of anger and hate and vindictivness.

We always appreciate when Dali Lama or Wesley Clark speaks with compassion and rational, but we continue here to rage and fight and go after people on DU who have the same feeling we do about just about everything. How do we end up getting so divided? If we don't start working together, we will lose the 2006 elections and another republican will take over the WH.

I can't change anyone, but I can change me. I don't want to roll around in hate like a dog in shit anymore. I'll be the first one to LOL when someone posts a funny thing about freepers, but I can't be like them on this board anymore. I have too much respect for myself and for a lot of people here.

[baby_mouse]

26. Understood and agree

Clarity and focus are what is needed.

I think I may well get into the habit of breaking RW stuff down point by point when it appears rather than simply venting. It's just going to be simpler in the long run.

They seem to pay far more attention to what the left says on this site than they do on any other discussion boards...

[graywarrior]

28. And we pay attention to what they say on their site.

It may be that we're all saying the same thing. We're fighting the wrong enemies. The politicians better start realizing that they are not the boss of us. We are the bosses and they'd better start doing what we want.

Let's focus our energy on them and force them into accountability instead of allowing ALL of them (dems included) to continue trying to snowball us, scare us, mollycoddle us. They ain't doing their jobs, period. Time for change.

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[baby_mouse]

31. self -delete - changed mind! Agree

[graywarrior]

35. Like bizzaro world on Seinfeld.

[demgurl]

32. I think we have all been too nice.

The RW character assassinated Kerry and he was very nice - did not even address it at first. This happens all the time folks. One of the reasons they become in charge is because we are all so nice. All they do is point a finger and state how bad we are and we back up.

Look at the 'MSM'. The RW pointed their collective finger and cried 'liberal'. The 'MSM' could not back up fast enough and fell over themselves trying to prove there was no liberal bias there.

We have to take responsibility where it lies and some of it lies with us. We have politely let them take over our country and tear it apart all in the name of us being the nice guys.

Well I have news for all of you. Nice guys only finish first in the movies. Nice does not always win and, in fact, it could be 10-20 years before we can fix these rigged elections and ever win again.

Not only do nice guys sometimes finish last but they also sometimes die. Do not let these people do a revisionist history on you. I have seen them write that they did not even think about fraud until Will stepped up to the plate. I am sorry, but there were disruptors stating this was all a fraud before Will ever said anything. Did these people carefully check out the fact and write to people before stating that the sky is falling and putting a fund raiser and someone's life in jeopardy?

The proper and nice way to do investigate would have been to do so behind the scenes. These people claimed to call the hospital. They claimed everything was a scam. They ignored items posted and even our own wonderful Skinner reassuring all of us.

What they did was purposely causing havoc. Perhaps it was not for the express purpose of killing Andy but that was the end result. They sat there and gleefully made up sights even using one of our own member's names as the owner of one of those hateful sites. If this was not trying to turn us against each other then I do not know what is.

We have lost so much by being nice and not playing aggressively. To forgive and forget would be to not hold guilty people accountable for the facilitation of a murder. You can forgive but still go after justice. Playing aggressively does not mean you must hate. I think forgiving and forgetting at this point would only mean that they have won and the country is theirs.

The ONLY reason they were so interested in derailing Andy's fundraising was because he tried to stand for democracy, the democracy of a honest election. They mock our honesty and try to bury it. They are threatened by it because they would have no power if we had the truth of a real democracy behind us.

I put forth to you that we need to level the playing field. Just as people here say that evolution and Christianity can co-exist, so can justice and accountability with forgiveness. When you punish a child for being bad that does not mean you hate them. punishment and fairness can go hand in hand.

We must each make individual decisions as to how we feel and what we do. This all ties into why we do not have control of the country. They always expect us to roll over and play dead. We can still be the good guys but be firm and demand accountability from everyone from freepers to top government officials. One is not exclusive of the other.

[Debs]

39. I'm with you

Everyone needs to understand that ACTIONS HAVE CONSEQUENCES. That neednt mean we hold hatred in our hearts but we dont just forget about the bank robbery because a bank robber apologizes. I spent a few years just being nice, never engaging in flame wars just trying to make my points and be convincing while trying to show by example that being reasonable was the best way. I watched Liberals get branded as weak and took tons of abuse. NO MORE. I still think when possible the fight should take the high road, consensus and agreement the goal, but from now on when they want the fight in mud I will follow them there and we can have at it.

[Joe Chi Minh]

33. It is difficult to imagine

how any Democrat, indeed how anyone who is not a neocon, could have caused as much damage to the neocon cause in the eyes of any people still in their ranks, who retain the least vestige of decency. How to win friends and influence people...

[Ravy]

34. It is not about what's been done that matters to me.

It is what *I* do that matters to me.

I don't give Freeper comments, positive or negative, any concern.

I see no reason to post them here at all. We should concentrate on what we need to do. If you want to laugh at, criticize, or applaud Freeper comments, they provide their own website for people to do just that.

Bringing their trash to DU just trashes up DU.

[graywarrior]

36. Indeed.

We don't have to lay down and take it, but we don't have to roll around int it, neither.

[Joe Chi Minh]

40. I am always glad to read

posts like yours, dispelling the smokescreens erected by the many disruptors and trolls on this board, but reflecting on the references made on these threads to the freepers who have expressed sorrow for their part in Andy's death, I really am beginning to feel sorry for some of these folk.

The reason for this is that, by definition, such young freepers are likely to be impressionable, with low self-esteem, natural followers of the lowest common denominators, i.e. fearful of resisting peer-pressure. All this adds up to a youthful immaturity which precludes a significant degree of moral courage. No, this is anything but a blandishment of the thuggish mindset and behaviour of the mature (relatively speaking) neocons.

[baby_mouse]

41. Yes

It's a hard core of genuinely malicious people leading the vulnerable.

Disgusting, really.