A simple question: Do you believe Bush stole the 2004 election?

[TruthIsAll]

In my post yesterday regarding the DU Elections forum, I suggested that many DUers still believe Bush won.

Let's find out just what you think.

We know that SCOTUS stole it for Bush in 2000 by stopping the recount in FL. But this question is about 2004.

Those who ignore history...

[whistle]

1. Ask the same question about the 2000 vote

[RC]

4. bu$h didn't not do it. He does not have enough functioning brain cells.

It's the criminals behind him. Have a look at rove here.
All roads may not lead to rove, but this sure does.

[checks-n-balances]

65. Exactly. Question should be, "Do you think the *GOP* stole it?"!

since freepers and other right wingers are so literal, they'll just dismiss the question, because that would have to mean that Bush himself PERSONALLY stole it.

Even if he did do it personally, he would never have left "fingerprints" himself; that's for underlings. One of the main things that KKKarl, (i.e., Bush's brain) himself learned from his tutor/mentor, Watergate criminal Donald Segretti.

Edited to add emphasis

[in_cog_ni_to]

2. YES. 2000 AND 2004. n/t

[barb162]

7. yep

[Cerridwen]

3. Yes - in 2000 and 2004

but then, I'm one o' them thar tin foil hat type o' nuts.

:tinfoilhat:

:yoiks:

:hi:

[iconoclastic cat]

31. Yup. Both.

[Mutley]

5. I believe there was definately fraud.

But I can't say for sure whether it would have been enough to change the outcome or not. I've read many articles, blogs, documents, etc on the subject, but when it comes right down to it, I don't know enough to say that I know for sure. I wasn't there.

[formernaderite]

13. Agreed...fraud, but probably not enough

I'm also not naieve enough to think fraud doesn't exist on BOTH sides.

[TruthIsAll]

6. Kick for more votes.

,

[Retired AF Dem]

8. I don't know

I don't think people can keep their mouths shut anymore. And fraud of that scale would of taken many participants. Unless of course they practiced "three people can keep a secret if two of them are dead"

On edit. With Dennis coming my way I hope post count 666 isnt a bad omen.

[Greybnk48]

9. Not a doubt in my mind it was fraud

based on, among other things, your analyses that have been printed here TIA.

[LSK]

10. so where are the many DUers who believe Bush won? n/t

[peekaloo]

11. fraWd.

[goclark]

12. I believe they stole it = absolutely!

In addition to the exit polls, let look at what happened AFTER the election.

Bush does not have a mandate from the PEOPLE! He has a mandate from the MEDIA and CORPORATE AMERICA. Not the people!

I saw a Democratic analyst on MSNBC with Pat Buchanan the other night. He said that Bush was a "LAME DUCK" and Pat, even Pat, did not fight him on that one.

If he had so much power from the PEOPLE(by their votes) he would not be having the trouble that he is having with the war, social security,Bolton, Terry Schivo etc.

The only HUGE groups that voted for him were the wing nuts and the extreme Christian Right. They are just not enough to swing it.

And, isn't it funny that OHIO " just happened to go his way" and that was the state that tipped it over? HA!

America has become a banana republic and BUSH and his criminals are the TOP Bananas!

[AlwaysDemocrat]

15. Voter disenfranchisement in Ohio was shameful

I'm still shocked that no MSM paid the least bit of attention to what happened there and in other places.

[BushFungus]

14. Insider Info?

Now this is so freaky it makes me wonder. But it really did happen.

Last year, I had an interview with Diebold Election Systems in McKinney, TX. Diebold was a big player in new electronic voting systems during the last election. Apparently, there were numerous reports of bugs and problems with Diebold's software, which some argue could have led to voting irregularities.

During my interview, I brought up this issue, citing news reports that their software was buggy and that it could possibly lead to voting irregularities. I also cited news reports which claimed that the voting systems were not exempt from potential tampering within its coding in an attempt to sway the election. My interviewer's response was that they do have systems in place to prevent such tampering. But what my interviewer said next was chilling, to say the least.

"We have a guy here that is a huge Bush supporter. He would do anything to see Bush get re-elected."

Could it have happened? Reports at the time suggessted that it was relatively easy to alter the code and that security was not as good as it should have been. So you just never know.

[blondeatlast]

17. You are going to love DU!

May I suggest that you put TruthIsAll on your buddy list to follow the Diebold dealings.

He and our late friend Andy Stephenson worked tirelessly to expose what happened.

[Name removed]

77. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[stpalm]

16. 2000 absolutely, 2004 I don't know.

I think there was fraud, but I am not convinced there was enough to change the results. Partly because the really only place I have seen any of this stuff is on DU. You would think other liberal publications would go as in-depth as people here.

I dont know.

[MelissaB]

26. How many links to those "liberal publications" do you need?

[stpalm]

29. I haven't seen any, besides one on Salon (I think) NT

[MelissaB]

33. Here is a start:

Kerry Won. . .
Greg Palast
November 04, 2004


http://www.commondreams.org/views04/1104-36.htm

Published on Thursday, November 4, 2004 by TomPaine.com
Kerry Won
by Greg Palast

Kerry won. Here's the facts.
I know you don't want to hear it. You can't face one more hung chad. But I don't have a choice. As a journalist examining that messy sausage called American democracy, it's my job to tell you who got the most votes in the deciding states. Tuesday, in Ohio and New Mexico, it was John Kerry.

Most voters in Ohio thought they were voting for Kerry. CNN's exit poll showed Kerry beating Bush among Ohio women by 53 percent to 47 percent. Kerry also defeated Bush among Ohio's male voters 51 percent to 49 percent. Unless a third gender voted in Ohio, Kerry took the state.




http://www.tompaine.com/articles/kerry_won_.php
or





or http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0411/S00080.htm


or http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/110504V.shtml


or

http://www.onlinejournal.com/evoting/110504Palast/110504palast.html

Wednesday, December 8th, 2004

Investigative Reporter Greg Palast on the "Apartheid Ballot Counting System in America"

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=04/12/08/1520204


This is a quick beginning. For a lot more info see here: http://www.independentmediasource.com/DU_archives/du_2004erd_el_ref_fr_thr_calenders.htm


Happy searching. ;)

[stpalm]

104. interesting....

Thanks!

[foo_bar]

18. Other: Yes, Bush stole 2004; No, the exit polls prove doodlysquat

Exit polls don't take into account the millions of disenfranchised voters (per Greg Palast et al.) that never got to vote in the first place. What the exit polls did show was the largest "red shifts" in Vermont/Massachusetts/New York, and a corresponding "blue shift" in Texas (from the 4pm leaked election polls).

In the words of one DUer: "If you feel free to toss unwelcome data why bother with polls at all?"

[Hello_Kitty]

79. I agree it was more disenfrachisement than anything else

Shenanigans with voting machines and exit polls only served as added insurance. The GOP machine made sure that people were stopped from voting prior to the election. We were registering new voters like crazy and they knew it. Here in Phoenix we found out that a large percentage of our new registrations were invalidated for bogus reasons. Others were registered but given the wrong info on where to go vote.

And lets not forget those private companies (working for the GOP) who were throwing out Democratic registrations in Nevada and god knows where else.

[dddem]

19. What difference does it make if it was legitimate?

I have argued this point with people who think it's ridiculous to believe this election was not on the up & up. My response to them is "you could be absolutely right, but YOU CAN'T PROVE IT!!". That is why this is an important issue no matter who you voted for, and frankly, I'd be MORE inclined to want it if I voted for Bush. I would want my opponents to know without a shadow of a doubt that my guy was legit.
I have a friend who has stopped donating to her regular dem. causes because, as she tells them when they call looking for money, until they make verifiable voting part if their platform, it doesn't matter how much they raise, or how right they are, if they can't win an election.

[bilgewaterbill]

56. What I think doesn't really matter without actinable proof. nt

[helderheid]

20. and how easy it was to steal both the electoral but also the popular

by padding the votes here, and losing some votes there... this election was brought to you by Diebold - because the election was over months ago, all that was left was the counting, and we'll take care of the counting!

[undeterred]

21. Rove, not Bush

[LincolnMcGrath]

22. Wow

The results so far shocked me!

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

23. There's fraud in every national election. Not enough in this case.

Anyway, it's moot point and a dead horse.

[Walt Starr]

24. Can't vote in this poll

I believe there was fraud on both sides in 2004. I further believe there was not enough fraud on either side to alter the outcome.

[valniel]

102. Agree. For stolen election look to 2000!

:hangover: Sure there was fraud and voter disenfranchisement, but we lost across the board; Presidency, House and Senate!

[MelissaB]

25. Yep! I'm with Rep. Conyers :)

:hi:

[Cocoa]

32. Conyers never asserted the election was stolen

Go ahead, speak for yourself, but Conyers has been distancing himself from assertions of the election being stolen, though he is not discouraging you or anyone from speaking your own mind.

http://www.truthout.org/docs_05/printer_122204W.shtml

<snip>

Q.Do you think you'll ever be able to prove that there was a coordinated effort to steal the election?

A.We're not trying to prove that. This is what we're discussing: We're trying to improve the situation wherever we can to make a better voting system in the states.

Q.But a lot of the people who support your efforts desperately want you to prove that there was a conspiracy. If the e-mails we get are any indication, a lot of them believe that the existence of a conspiracy has already been proven.

A.Well, you know, a citizen's point of view may be different from a federal lawmaker's point of view. The citizens are entitled to form their own opinions. They can assert that easily. A member of Congress, the ranking member of Judiciary ... I can't make those assertions without proof. That would be reckless.

Q.So you don't make them.

A.No, I don't.

Q.What do you do?

A.We pass laws. We make laws and we try to correct the system through the legislative process.

[MelissaB]

45. Ummm, Cocoa, he wrote a book about it.

http://www.academychicago.com/conyers.html




About the Book
This fascinating and disturbing book is the official record of testimony taken by the Democratic Members and Staff of the House Judiciary Committee, presided over by Rep. John Conyers of Michigan, the Ranking Member. Originally released in January, 2005 by the Committee and now available in print for the first time.

Witnesses included both Republicans and Democrats, elected officials, voting machine company employees, poll observers, and many voters who testified about the harassment they endured, some of which led to actual vote repression.

While shreds of the electoral chaos in Ohio were reported in the press, the issue soon faded from public view. What Went Wrong In Ohio provides new insights into the abuse and manipulation of electronic voting machines and the arbitrary and illegal behavior of a number of elected and election officials which effectively disenfranchised tens of thousands of voters in order to change the outcome of an election.

[Cocoa]

51. but he never asserts the election was stolen

I'm well aware of that report, it's an excellent report and it's available online.

http://truthout.org/Conyersreport.pdf

[MelissaB]

52. I have the book.

Have you read it?

[Cocoa]

54. most of it

I read most of it online.

[MelissaB]

55. Here is something else

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=3813347

I don't think he would be calling John Edwards Vice-President unless he thought Kerry won the election.

[Cocoa]

59. you posted a blurb and a joke

(a joke which I can't acutally find).

I posted John Conyers saying "I can't make those assertions without proof. That would be reckless."

Conyers is investigating election problems, and proposing solutions, he's not saying the election was stolen. Maybe he thinks it, who knows? But he's respectfully distancing himself from assertions of it.

[MelissaB]

62. A joke? You've got to be kidding.

...and "distanced himself from assertions of it"? Now I know you are kidding.

[Cocoa]

64. if this isn't distancing, then nothing is

Supporting the people who make the assertions, but not putting his own name on them.

Q.But a lot of the people who support your efforts desperately want you to prove that there was a conspiracy. If the e-mails we get are any indication, a lot of them believe that the existence of a conspiracy has already been proven.

A.Well, you know, a citizen's point of view may be different from a federal lawmaker's point of view. The citizens are entitled to form their own opinions. They can assert that easily. A member of Congress, the ranking member of Judiciary ... I can't make those assertions without proof. That would be reckless.

[MelissaB]

66. I guess he was trying to distance himself with an investigation

and all the letters he wrote to Blackwell and others. You just may have something there after all. I'm starting to see your point. :sarcasm:

[Cocoa]

68. Conyers is explicit about what his investigation was and was NOT about

You may think Conyers's investigation was trying to prove fraud, but he is very clear that that's NOT what he was doing. You may think you're with him, but he's not with you.

Q.Do you think you'll ever be able to prove that there was a coordinated effort to steal the election?

A.We're not trying to prove that. This is what we're discussing: We're trying to improve the situation wherever we can to make a better voting system in the states.

[MelissaB]

69. Oh, Cocoa! I've seen the way you operate

and I'm not willing to spend a lot of my time on you.
If I thought you were asking for info and would read it with an open mind, I would, but I've got things to do with my family today.

[Cocoa]

71. when talking about Conyers's position, I post Conyers's words

that's how I operate.

[MelissaB]

76. Yeah, and I did, too!

:hi:

[Cocoa]

78. you posted your words

and pretended they were Conyers's. Newsflash: you're not John Conyers.

You posted a blurb for Conyers's report, I posted a link to the report.

[MelissaB]

80. Bullshit! Read post 78 again. Those aren't my words.

Nice try.

[rman]

99. but he does provide insight into the abuse and manipulation

of the election.

semantics, semantics.

[B Calm]

27. This clearly a no brainer. The neo cons been stealing elections

for some time now! It's sickening what the republican party has done to democracy.

[Cocoa]

28. No, I'm with John Conyers

who specifically said his efforts are not challenging the outcome of 2004.

:hi:

[dandrhesse]

37. Don't assume that John Conyers Jr. doesn't think it was stolen, he is a

very intelligent man and also an attorney who knows the difference between "knowing" something to be true and proving it in a court of law. Conyers is not about to make charges that he can not fully prosecute and convict. The neo cons would have a field day with him and he would lose credibility.

[Cocoa]

39. not just his own credibility

the credibility of election reform, the credibility of Congress, the credibility of the Democrats, and the credibility of the Judiciary Committee.

You're damn right Conyers knows that difference, he's the real deal, he deserves every bit of the admiration he gets.

[dandrhesse]

44. you bet and we should all take notes on how he approaches and issue, it is

the tact of someone in it for the long haul. Accusations may get the headlines but they don't get the conviction. Always remember that what we see, and hear is John Conyers Jr., public face. What he privately says and thinks may be a whole lot harsher than his public face.

[MelissaB]

49. Read post 45 above.

:hi:

[Zorra]

30. Once again: There is absolutely no legitimate reason to force voters

to vote with voting devices that cannot be verified for accuracy and accountability.

The only reason for the existence of non-verifiable voting systems is to allow anti-democratic individuals to alter the outcomes of elections so that republicans and corporate representatives from other political parties maintain a majority legislative presence over genuine representatives of the People in our government.

[Jim Sagle]

34. Hell yeah!!!!!!

[derby378]

35. I think the Bush team started stealing the 2004 vote back in 2000

When Choicepoint/DBT started disenfrancising predominantly black voters on orders from then-Florida SoS Katherine Harris, that's when the process started for that state. Jeb Bush has "promised" that most of these people will be reinstated to the voter rolls eventually - but they weren't reinstated in time for the 2004 vote.

Then there's Ken Blackwell's shenanigans in Ohio, the "robgeorgia" code in Diebold touchscreens in Georgia, voting irregularities and redistricting in Texas, etc. A little here, a little there.

And just to remind everyone - we all owe a great deal to the "Killer Ds" down in Texas who tried to prevent the unconstitutional redistricting of Texas back in 2003, despite increased pressure from Tom DeLay, Homeland Security, and the GOP majority down in Austin.

[dandrhesse]

36. yes, starting with the 2000 appointment, the rigged midterms in 2006 and

the November 2004. We have not had a democratic election in 6 years. I understand why people simply opt out of the whole system. Look at the masses of people around the world and here at home that oppose this administration, it is phenomenal if you compare it with other times in history. You have world leaders on a daily basis questioning the legitmacy of our government and the competency of the president. It is unprecedented. It scares me to think what will have to take place in order to end this reign of terror.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

38. Yes..via crooked voting commissioners

via an organized attempt to suppress the votes
via unverifiable results with paperless accountability
via organizations such as Nathan Sproul and associates tossing out registration cards of people who registered via their assistants

and via many organized acts that rival any RICO crime

[The Blue Knight]

40. It wasn't fixed. We lost Ohio because we got outhustled in Southern Ohio.

We let gay marriage and the war on terrorism dictate Southern Ohio, instead of pushing our economic plan. Also, Bush made tons of gains in townships and villages all over Ohio. That's why we lost.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

42. So you missed those long lines wrapped around the blocks in Dem

districts? You missed the fact that the same occurred in Arizona? YOu missed the fact that many people who registered to vote showed up and were not registered?

Sorry...I don't buy it

[dddem]

81. with all due respect,

like I've said before, you might be right, but can you prove it?
If there was verifiable voting, you could. But as it stands, you can't.

[sendero]

41. I would rephrase the question...

... I think the election was stolen, but I'm not that sure that Bush** had much to do with it.

[candy331]

43. Stole in 2004 and given to him in 2000, the man is a born loser, the

worst terrorist attack on American soil(LIHOP/MIHOP?)happened on his watch and now his poodle pet(Blair) has the same which can be attributed to his head rubbing from loser #1. "When will they ever learn"?

[LuCifer]

46. If you steal something (say, 2000 election!) and get away with it...

...then, you mean to tell me (2002 mid terms and 2004) you are NOT going to do so AGAIN!? Bullcrap!

Plus, there is NO WAY as many people who "voted" for Bush actually DID so. No way do people stand in line in FL and Ohio for HOURS and HOURS just to vote BACK IN the status quo.

Lu

[rucky]

47. There was fraud & we don't know how much.

statisically enough to change the results, but until those votes are accounted for... meaning, we'll never know

[In Truth We Trust]

48. YES... Absofuckinglutely! If you voted no then you are seriously mis-

informed. There is too much evidence to conclude otherwise. A plethora of hard evidence (overvotes all in favor of chimp) and anecdotal evidence (exit polls, screen results etc.).

Common sense alone tells you that there is no way the MAJORITY of people in this country voted for this asshole in 2004 after a net loss of 18 million jobs, rising oil costs, an unpopular war, a dismal economic record, and multiple scandals and unpopular policies. All of that on top of the fact that the idiot son LOST THE POPULAR VOTE IN 2000!

It was FRAWD on a wide digital scale that some may not be able to comprehend or digest, but nevertheless it happened.

Paper ballots NOW!!!
Hand counts NOW!!!
Impeachment NOW!!!

[autorank]

50. No rDUr here--Who the heck are those 4 people (hunky dorey).

Damn, even optimistic I did not think that the majority would be this overwhelming.

Thanks for the great poll.

{rDUr-reluctant DU responder, an obscure reference to the latest, pathetic and failed, Bush supporter explanation of how Bush won despite gigantic odds against that based on RELIABLE exit polls)

DON'T BELIEVE THE BULL SHIT.

IT WAS STOLEN.

THERE IS MORE THAN ENOUGH EVIDENCE TO SHOW THAT AND DEMAND AN INVESTIGATION.

PEOPLE WHO SAY WE HAVE NOT SHOWN DEFINITIVE PROOF ARE EITHER (A) MUDDLED IN THEIR THINKING OR (B) FULL OF SHIT SINCE YOU CAN'T HAVE "DEFINITIVE (etc.) PROOF" BEFORE AN INVESTIGATION.

THEY STOLE 2000...THEY STOLE 2004...THEY STOLE THE COUNTRY...

[Tigress DEM]

61. Blackwell, "Evidence? Right under my butt?" .....

"What do you mean I'm sitting on the evidence? I'm sitting in a chair. Silly liberals."

[autorank]

63. Nobody's said it better. This is great...

[autorank]

116. cya at the 9/24/05 party!!!

[Media_Lies_Daily]

53. They did they same thing during the 2002 elections...look at the polls...

...in the last 48 hours leading up to the elections, and then look at the results of the elections themselves.

Major disconnect, IMHO.

[Hepburn]

57. No mother fucking...

...doubt in my mind that both the 2000 and the 2004 presidential elections were stolen. And, my opinion, the buck for this stops with KKKarl Rove.

[countingbluecars]

58. Yes,

I believe he did.

[Tigress DEM]

60. Ken Blackwell was the one with "dirty hands" but no question about it.

Blackwell was hired to deliver the vote and he did. He stole the election for *ush and sat on any evidence until it was too late because once the Ohio electors made their erroneous call the voters wishes were incidental.

Other areas were complicit with *ush, but Ohio was the one state where the man in charge of guarding voters rights was the most abusive towards them.

[Behind the Aegis]

67. More accurately: his handlers stole it

I think the fraud is not just limited to a few battleground states. I did a little research for my county (and others) in Oklahoma and found some had more votes than people! And, no, not just people of voting age, of POPULATION. This is such a "red" state, who'd even think to investigate it. It also appears, according to some of our exit polls, that some stations had that annoying 'glitch' of counting backwards.

[nashville_brook]

70. man, TIA -- it's great seeing this info outside of the election forum!

thank you thank you thank you!

[TruthIsAll]

115. I'll even kick it for you...

It's great to see that 90% of DUers believe...

[nashville_brook]

117. it was all the amazing work in the election forum that made a member

out of me. had lurked for years -- but then all this incredible research bloomed from that forum and i've been damn proud to read you and be in on the conversation from the beginning of the election fraud investigations. wow -- what a couple of months it has been. you are treasure here. keep up the good work!

[Dervill Crow]

72. Yes, the election was stolen.

But Bush was not responsible. Lord knows, he is the most irresponsible SOB on the planet.

[deutsey]

73. I have very deep suspicions that Bush/Rove rigged the election

based on all the "oddities" that occured on Election Day (exit polls being so off, the instances where electronic voting machines actually started subtracting votes and other "glitches", and not to mention the disenfranchisment in Ohio of all those voters in Democratic strongholds.

[WinkyDink]

74. exit polls

I don't think this was the first election to get the exit polls wrong, uh-uh, no way.

That fix was in from January 21, 2001.

[Mythsaje]

75. My answer is simple

I don't know. Do I think it's possible? Absolutely. Likely? Possible.

[applegrove]

82. They stole it by stealing hearts & minds - and some tricky games

like perhaps padding the democratic exit polls or some such things. For sure African Americans were vetting using felon lists when Latinos were not (Florida).

Things like that.

[Mnemosyne]

83. This needs kicked too.

and who the hell voted that the election wasn't stolen? Ignorance is no excuse, but stupidity is.

:kick: :kick: :kick:

[kentuck]

84. I do not believe Kerry won the popular vote...

He may have won the electoral vote without the shenanigans in OH...

[helderheid]

85. 90% yes

good on ya DU

[tommcintyre]

86. The evidence is overwhelming

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4017670#4018749

Check it out, and while you're there, vote in that thread too.

[vanboggie]

87. No doubt about it

And the thefts will be even more widespread next time around unless the fraud is brought to light. Even my best Senator thinks our state's vote is secured with optical scan machines being installed all over the state by the Bush buddies. What about the tabulator and the companies who count the votes.

Overwhelming evidence being ignored by those it put in power.

[Stand and Fight]

88. Yes.

I've read absolutely nothing to convince me otherwise, and I have sought the opposition view quite strongly.

[deacon]

89. It was stolen in Ohio--just look how corrupt Ohio is.... n/t

[A Brand New World]

90. I believe to the depth of my being that * & cabal stole the elections in

2000 & 2004. I honestly think that President Gore is the rightful President. Don't forget if it was President Gore in 2000, we would still have President Gore in 2004. President Kerry would not be until 2008. Don't even think of President Lieberman. Cannot fathom that. I think he was a part of the closeness in the votes in 2000. Lieberman was definitely the weak link.

[helderheid]

91. .

[txindy]

92. Do I believe that, for the first time ever, the exit polls were wrong?

And by such a large margin?

Yeah, right.

[lala_rawraw]

93. YES

I not only believe it, I reported on it and there is not a doubt in my mind, not a shred, not a splinter.

[AuntPatsy]

94. Yes, I have absolutely no doubt in my mind.

[Helga Scow Stern]

95. Of course it was stolen--and it was on national TV for all to see.

More and more people are waking up to the fact that it was stolen right out from under our noses...in a variety of ways.

Yes, disenfranchisement was an aspect of it, but certainly not the whole story or even the main method. The vote was skimmed and padded in the millions all across the country. Rove thought that he could fool people into believing Bush had won by creating lots of false reasons why Bush won, to explain the inexplicable shifts in polls.

[EFerrari]

96. Of course it was stolen. n/t

[B Calm]

97. Why does the republican party fight for no paper trail?

[TruthIsAll]

98. Why don't the democrats, other than Conyer's, ask them?

They like to lose.

[Old and In the Way]

100. I'd bet the farm that it was stolen.

Gore wins by 1/2MM votes in 2000 and after 4 years of these incompetent criminals destroying the economy, bankrupting the Treasury, letting 9/11 occur, lying about the causus belli to invade Iraq....we are to believe Kerry loses by 5MM votes?

[TruthIsAll]

101. Actually, it was Bush 62-59mm (official) but Kerry really won by 63-58mm..

based on the 12:22am state and national (13047 respondents) exit polls.

According to the exit poll optimizer model:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x383014

[Old and In the Way]

103. I stand corrected, TIA

I should never rely on my aging DRAM.

:-)

[Neecy]

105. yes

Election day, I was in my car after doing GOTV around five o'clock and I switched the radio to Hannity - I knew for once that I'd enjoy it.

He was wetting his pants, pleading for his listeners who hadn't voted to get to the polls. He was in a state of panic and hysteria. Then he got Cheney on the horn, and Cheney coolly claimed that they'd win. Didn't beg for voters to go to the polls. Hmmmm, I thought. Odd given the exit poll numbers I was hearing at Democratic HQ that day.

That night I attended a victory party for Missouri Dems at the Uptown Theater in Kansas City. The place was packed, very upbeat, victory in the air, etc. As we watched the returns come in, I was struck by how quickly they were calling close states for Bush, and how long they were taking to call states that weren't as close - like PA - for Kerry. This went on for hours.

At one point, I turned to the others at my table and said, "They must be holding back calling Kerry states because they need to figure out what state Bush has to steal." All around the table were the sick and stunned looks that accompanied the last fiasco in 2000.

You know in your bones when something is wrong - and I'll always believe there was something wrong in 2004. The evangelical base just isn't large enough to overcome our new voter registration and our massive GOTV. We're expected to believe that a small percentage of fundamentalists flew completely under the radar and overwhelmed our efforts - the numbers just aren't there. It's bullshit.

[mod mom]

106. So sure that I closed my business of 17+ years to investigate + work on

election reform! I was appalled by what I witnessed in Franklin County on election day. It was blatant suppression of those voters with the least power in our country. I spent the fall canvassing low income African American neighborhoods on the east side of Frankin County with the Kerry Campaign. I was so sure that these voters were fired up for change in leadership and would be out in record numbers. What followed is history.

I got involved on Nov 3 with CASE Ohio and other groups and more and more information was uncovered as to the stolen election. Missing voter registrations, UNAMERICAN caging techniques and challenges, long lines in high dem precincts, faux homeland security alert in Warren County, vote switching in Mahoning County, voter turnouts at predominately African American Colleges, the exit poll discrepancy, 3,893 extra votes for bu$h in Gahanna (in a 600+ voter precinct), the triad tape from Hocking County during the recount, and the grand finale for me was LUCAS COUNTY:

Tom Noe is under federal investigation regarding the loss of $ 12 million rare coins from the $ 50 million dollar investment by the Ohio Bureau of Workmens Comp (BWC).Bernadette Noe and Tom Noe both have links to the Lucas County BOE. Ms Noe was Chairperson of the Lucas County BOE during the past election. I hope you have taken the time to read the SOS's Investigation of Lucas county following the election:
http://www.sos.state.oh.us/sos/elections/lucas.htm


This report includes the fact that REPUBLICAN VOLUNTEERS were allowed UNSUPERVISED ACCESS to UNSECURED BALLOTS prior to the election, as well as this list:

*failure to maintain ballot security
*Inability to implement and maintain a trackable system for voter ballot reconciliation .
*failure to prepare and develop a plan for the processing of the voluminous amount of voter registration forms received.
*issuance and acceptance of incorrect absentee ballot forms.
*manipulation of the process involving the 3% recount.
*disjointed implementation of the Directive regarding the removal of Nader and Camejo from the ballot .
*failure to properly issue hospital ballots in accordance with statutory requirements.
*failure to maintain the security of poll books during the official canvass
*failure to examine campaign finance reports in a timely manner.
*failure to guard and protect public documents.
*failure to guard and protect public documents ....etc.

Tom W. Noe served as the Chairman of the Lucas County Republican Party from 1992-1995 as well as on the board of the Lucas County Board of Election from 1993-2003. He was also appointed to the Ohio Board of regents in 1995.

http://www.regents.state.oh.us/people/noe.html

It was during his tenure on the BOE that Diebold machines were brought into Lucas County.

"TOLEDO, Ohio, May 10, 2002 ¯ Just about every county in the nation is rushing to update their voting technology, but no county to date has done it faster than Lucas County."
<snip>
"Lucas County Board of Elections Acting Chairman Tom Noe, who was present to observe the May 7th election, was pleased with the outcome. "I don't think there is another county in the nation that has implemented touch screen voting as quickly as Lucas County did for this trial run in a primary election," Noe said. "The people of Lucas County and of Ohio in general can be proud of this achievement.""
http://www.sequoiavote.com/mediadetail.php?id=57

http://www.diebold.com/news/newsdisp.asp?id=2997

Also Mr. Noe intervened with Blackwell in a court case:

Thomas W. Noe files to intervene in Democrat court Case v. BlackwellEdited on Fri May-27-05 05:57 PM by phoebe
http://moritzlaw.osu.edu/electionlaw/docs/sandusky/doc5...

Also, please be aware of this information on Democratic Underground, which includes many interesting links:

/www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=371800&mesg_id=371800

There were so many problems concerning the election in Lucas County, including with the Diebold machines. Here is a report from an observer of the re-count in Lucas County:

December 22, 2004
 
Report from Recount Observer, Lucas County, Ohio
Emailed report from Lucas County, Ohio, Recount Observer:

i was a witness for the testing of the optiscan machines on tuesday the 14th.

what is puzzling to me, after the tests of the scanners were finished, the witnesses were not allowed to compare the hand count results to the printed results from the scanners. the ballots, the hand count sheets and the printed tapes were all taken away, to another room, out of sight of any witnesses and about 40 minutes later, the director comes out and tells us everything checks out.

we go to lunch and when we come back, we find ourselves waiting in the lobby. why? we were waiting for diebold to reprogram the scanners. what? didn't they just verify that everything was on the up and up? what is the need to reprogram the scanners?

also, during the testing process, one precinct, sylvania 3, continuously had the test ballots spit back out at least 3 times for approximatley 50% of them. during the election, how many times did this occur and what poll worker is going to stand there and continuosly feed the scanner to get it to scan 1 ballot? therefore, how many of the ballots were put in the spoiled pile that were really not spoiled?

another thing that was very interesting was the two people that i was witnessing actually did not know how to run the scanner. are they the type of people that were the normal who were overseeing the election? am i crazy? what is wrong with this picture?

after witnessing the fiasco of a test recount being conducted at the lucas county government center, i am definitely for scrapping this election and having a re- vote. there isn't any other way we are going to get a legitimate election.

Please also visit "Ohio Election 2004" athttp://ohioelection2004.com.

It was during his tenure on the BOE that Diebold machines were brought into Lucas County.

"TOLEDO, Ohio, May 10, 2002 ¯ Just about every county in the nation is rushing to update their voting technology, but no county to date has done it faster than Lucas County."
<snip>
"Lucas County Board of Elections Acting Chairman Tom Noe, who was present to observe the May 7th election, was pleased with the outcome. "I don't think there is another county in the nation that has implemented touch screen voting as quickly as Lucas County did for this trial run in a primary election," Noe said. "The people of Lucas County and of Ohio in general can be proud of this achievement.""
http://www.sequoiavote.com/mediadetail.php?id=57

http://www.diebold.com/news/newsdisp.asp?id=2997


RIGGING THE VOTE IN LUCAS COUNTY

Richard Hayes Phillips, Ph.D.
Revised December 24, 2004

-snip-

The very first thing we all noticed when examining the precinct
canvass records for Lucas County was the distribution of turnout.
The range is striking, and turnout is distinctly higher in the
Bush precincts than in the Kerry precincts. In some precincts
the reported turnout is too high to be credible.


PRECINCTS WITH HIGHEST TURNOUT, TOLEDO SUBURBS

Precinct Turnout Bush Kerry

MONCLOVA TOWNSHIP 10 92.67 217 161
MONCLOVA TOWNSHIP 11 92.46 424 298
SYLVANIA TOWNSHIP J 91.97 84 40
OREGON 16 89.46 186 210
MAUMEE 18 89.44 205 190
MONCLOVA TOWNSHIP 7 87.78 285 151
MONCLOVA TOWNSHIP 9 87.58 195 78
RICHFIELD TOWNSHIP 2 86.76 105 83
SYLVANIA TOWNSHIP K 86.74 338 177
SYLVANIA TOWNSHIP I 86.48 270 184
SPRINGFIELD TOWNSHIP 25 86.17 230 116
OREGON 5 86.09 382 390
MONCLOVA TOWNSHIP 5 85.96 365 181
MAUMEE 12 85.48 197 262
WATERVILLE TOWNSHIP 7 85.36 328 189
OREGON 15 85.23 189 287
YLVANIA CITY 18 85.05 434 214
SPRINGFIELD TOWNSHIP 9 84.98 297 147
SYLVANIA CITY 10 84.87 254 157
SYLVANIA CITY 21 84.87 516 295
SYLVANIA TOWNSHIP H 84.85 211 122
WATERVILLE TOWNSHIP 3 84.56 356 304
WATERVILLE TOWNSHIP 6 84.48 293 183
WATERVILLE TOWNSHIP 9 84.31 542 260
SYLVANIA TOWNSHIP CC 84.21 262 194


Turnout above 90% is almost unheard of. I have examined the
canvass records in eight other Ohio counties and have seen
reported turnout above 90% only in two precincts in Miami County
where, in my professional opinion, the election was hacked.
Miami and Lucas counties are also the only two counties whose
records I have examined that used optical scanning machines, as
confirmed by the map posted at

verifiedvoting.org/verifier/map.php?&topic_string=5std&state=Ohio



Altogether there were 63 precincts in Toledo with less than 60%
reported turnout. All of them were won overwhelmingly by John
Kerry. The vote in the aggregate was 19,353 to 4,247, more than
4.5 to 1. But look at the distribution, or more precisely, the
concentration. Of the 8 precincts with less than 50% reported
turnout, 4 are located in 2 wards. Of the 29 precincts with less
than 55% reported turnout, 20 are located in 4 wards, and 24 are
located in 6 wards. Of the 63 precincts with less than 60%
reported turnout, 34 are located in 4 wards, 39 are located in
5 wards, and 43 are located in 6 wards.

/web.northnet.org/minstrel/toledo.htm
http://web.northnet.org/minstrel/toledo.htm

December 22, 2004
 
Report from Recount Observer, Lucas County, Ohio
Emailed report from Lucas County, Ohio, Recount Observer:

i was a witness for the testing of the optiscan machines on tuesday the 14th.

what is puzzling to me, after the tests of the scanners were finished, the witnesses were not allowed to compare the hand count results to the printed results from the scanners. the ballots, the hand count sheets and the printed tapes were all taken away, to another room, out of sight of any witnesses and about 40 minutes later, the director comes out and tells us everything checks out.

we go to lunch and when we come back, we find ourselves waiting in the lobby. why? we were waiting for diebold to reprogram the scanners. what? didn't they just verify that everything was on the up and up? what is the need to reprogram the scanners?

also, during the testing process, one precinct, sylvania 3, continuously had the test ballots spit back out at least 3 times for approximatley 50% of them. during the election, how many times did this occur and what poll worker is going to stand there and continuosly feed the scanner to get it to scan 1 ballot? therefore, how many of the ballots were put in the spoiled pile that were really not spoiled?

another thing that was very interesting was the two people that i was witnessing actually did not know how to run the scanner. are they the type of people that were the normal who were overseeing the election? am i crazy? what is wrong with this picture?

after witnessing the fiasco of a test recount being conducted at the lucas county government center, i am definitely for scrapping this election and having a re- vote. there isn't any other way we are going to get a legitimate election.

Please also visit "Ohio Election 2004" athttp://ohioelection2004.com.

[ArkDem]

107. Mr. PseudoMath strikes again!

[second edition]

108. I have just come around to the belief that Bush didn't actually win.

To many things just don't add up and the explanations for discrepancies in voting and polls are lacking. We already have documented disenfranchisement in Ohio. Now we have the Ohio coin -gate. I know there was a lot of aid money sent to just about anyone who asked in Florida after the hurricane's. I read they were taking applications at fast food restaurants and aid money was received within 24 hours without a waiting period. The one article I remember reading in Newsweek,right after the election, pertained to Karen Hughes preparing to sit the president down to tell him he lost, and Rove telling her to hold off, because he had a feeling their numbers were going to come in later. I often go back to this statement, in my mind, when I'm angry people couldn't see through the Bush campaign bullsh*t.(I'll be happy to provide a link once I relocate it).

[bloom]

109. I wonder - the people who vote "no"

- if it's because they are still relying on the Mainstream Media to tell them the truth.

[Flying Dream Blues]

110. Yes, stolen.

Bush was told by Karen Hughes, I believe, that the exit polls were showing him far behind in many key states, and that it looked bad. He would probably lose the election. She wrote later that he took it very calmly. Does that sound like * to you???? I mean really.

[Walt Starr]

111. I can't vote in this poll

I believe there was fraud on both sides, but not extensive enough to alter the results.

Of course, the election of Bush in 2004 is still illegitimate because of the incumbency advantage and the fact that his presidency in the first term was illegitimate.

[Lilith Velkor]

112. Fraud yes, theft? Dunno.

[TruthIsAll]

118. What's the purpose of fraud, then? Is it just a game?

Tell DUers what you mean by that one-liner.

What is your definition of fraud?

[Lilith Velkor]

121. The purpose is to sow confusion.

As I see it, all the monkeying around with the voting apparatus plus the belligerent media attacks make it hard to tell whether the election was stolen. Did they cheat (as in alter the vote count in crucial areas) just enough to get 51% of the vote or are 51% of the voters really that gullible? I admit, I don't know.

I use the term fraud here in reference to the poll question. I always thought it meant taking something from someone (usually money, a vote in this case) by means of deception. There is certainly evidence of voter fraud, but the fourth estate is far too compromised for it to be an issue among the masses.

[Al-CIAda]

113. 2000, 2002, & 2004. n/t

[Rhiannon12866]

114. I absolutely believe it, both in 2004 and 2000.

The circumstances were almost identical, down to having the Secretary of State in charge of the state Bush* campaign. If you want details, read this, the definitive article on exactly how this was done. It's by investigative journalist Greg Palast, who broke the story of the voter fraud in Florida during the 2000 presidential election. According to him, Kerry really won Ohio and New Mexico, which certainly would have put him over the top.

Kerry Won. Here Are the Facts.
http://www.gregpalast.com/detail.cfm?artid=392&row=0

[lyberyl_prygryssyve]

119. Why are there so few votes?

Do people just not like polls in general?

[4 t 4]

120. YES

YES ON BOTH