Which is worse - Watergate or Rovegate? I've noticed some reporters

[patricia92243]

saying "This is worse than Watergate." But is it?

Rove's outing of Plame will hurt many, many people, but Watergate was about the Republican Party spying on the Democratic Party's game plan. In other words, they were trying to throw an election - which would influence millions of people and our democracy.

[48pan]

1. Rovegate isn't going to amount to anything.

Nobody cares but us.

[Quixote1818]

17. That doesn't matter. What matters is the court system.

This is one story we don't have to push. If the investigation is honest then Rove can do nothing to stop his and others demise.

[marions ghost]

37. "IF the investigation is honest"...

I wish I thought the odds were more than about 50-50 on that.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

40. Simply not true

I know Republicans who are just getting wind of this and want to know what's going on, too.

Not every republican is a freeper type. I know it seems like it some days, but they really are not all over the top freaks.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

2. I've got a bone to pick with Rovergate. Woof. Can't wait until the

poop hits the rotating oscillating unit.

[janx]

3. The outing of Plame was done in order to continue the lies

about the reasons for war. Lying to the American people about war is about as serious as it gets.

[peace frog]

13. Sidebar...

... just admiring your weimaraner puppy, janx. Reminds me of my dear departed doggie, Ilse - beautiful, loving dogs they are. :loveya:

[janx]

16. YES,

they are! :hi:

[FloridaPat]

4. How many people died because of Watergate?

Same number that died because of Monicagate.

[autorank]

5. Worse, here's why.

Bush is our Caligula. When the story of this is written in more detail, we will find out that the personally repellent stories about * and co are just the tip of the iceberg. I'm not talking about Gannon stuff, I'm talking about stories like the Gold Star mothers who went to meet him in the WH and were traumatized by his casual indifference and odious presence. A year later, they still talk about it.

In addition, Bush stole the election twice. In a sense, it really isn't our fault in terms of voting. Failure to follow up on that cause, it our responsibility.

Bush is a monster and does vile things. He's trying to destroy the country and turn it into a farm for corporate pod masters. Nixon was a tortured, flawed, in many ways, tragic personality who engaged in some serious crimes against the state but had the redeeming quality (like Johnson) of doing some fine work and having a skewed but first rate intellect.

I don't buy that Bush is "smart" in his way. He's Caligula. Face it, we're ruled by a monster.

[jaysunb]

7. Well Said !

:toast: to you and the Raiders. Can't wait for the season to start !

[autorank]

30. Thank you very much!

We will rule this year...Sap, Moss (perfect Raider, strange guy who will be grateful for a bunch of stranger guys who will smile while they pummel him if he pulls any stunts...haha) and the rest. It's our turn again.

America's Team...from a true "blue collar town."

You'll appreciate this. I went to Pittsburgh recently for a four day meeting. I hadn't been there in about 20 years, at which point it was a bit shabby. My friend who just moved there said it was great but I dismissed that. Guess what, it's all cleaned up, very stylish and artsy...it's, as they like to say, San Francisco on a budget. Nothing like steel town back in the 70's...so that leaves just Oakland as the "hard core" city in the NFL.

[jaysunb]

39. Not so fast there.....

my former hometown, Cleveland, is still the "real nitty gritty. " Even with a new stadium, the dawgpound is a reminder of how they make their livings. I still look forward to the two regular season games w/ the Steelers. The DO NOT DISTURB sign is out all game ! LOL

[patricia92243]

12. I have not heard about the gold star mothers. Do you have a link to this?

I would really like to read about this.

[in_cog_ni_to]

18. Here's a link.

http://www.gsfp.org/

Cindy Sheehan helped start this organization after her son Casey was killed in Iraq. She and her family met with Bush and he treated them like shit.

[autorank]

29. Here's a link to the site where I heard the interview.

http://www.mikemalloy.com/

Malloy did an interview with one of the moms. It was very moving and if you're intrested, I'd go to the site and email him. I tried to find the link but couldn't. It was just a few nights ago so I'm sure that they can point it to you.

Good luck!

[TruthIsAll]

25. Auto, you took the words right out of my mouth...

Many DUers were not around during the 60s and 70s.

Nixon was a saint compared to Bush.

And I could not stand Nixon, yet appreciated the positive things he tried to do (China, Russia), like LBJ (civil rights) before him. Both men were flawed, yet at the same time presidential in their own way. They came eventually to realize their mistakes.

Bush is Caligula: not one redeeming quality.

[wli]

31. body count

By and large people of significant power leave many dead in their wake.

[blm]

6. Try using TREASONGATE. Outing an agent is TREASON.

.

[jaysunb]

8. It's far more serious than treason

if that's possible.
Starting an illeagal war based on lies goes beyond treason in my opinion.
:hi:

[blm]

11. Yeah, but this particular investigation is too narrow for that one.

A DSM investigation would expose the lead up to war.

[jaysunb]

27. Remember Ken Starr ??

his mandate was pretty narrow too....
Seems these fellows (special prosecuters) have lots of room to " follow the trail wherever it leads.

But we shall see in the next few days.

Hope you are well.

[blm]

33. Same here. ;)

Starr kept expanding his investigation and had all the help in the world doing so thanks to Louis Freeh and his best buddies, Orrin Hatch and Newt Gingrich.

[brettdale]

9. I cant find one word

I cant find one word On CNN about he July 18th newsweek story! That is plain crazy!

[newswolf56]

10. To what depraved depths we have descended, that we...

...now praise Richard Milhous Nixon to illustrate the nature of the tyrant by whom we are presently ruled. (I'm not flaming anybody: I catch myself doing the same thing, beginning a sentence, "Not even Nixon...")

[Stinky The Clown]

14. The current 'gate' is far worse than the original

I'm not nearly as critical of Nixon as some. That's not to say he was a good guy, but neither was he purely evil ..... and his record shows that. But neither was he anything **near** what this administration is.

In large measure, the Watergate/Nixon story has been written by the historians. You'll never find Nixon's name in the same circles as the worst of mankind's leaders ... Hitler, Attila, (some of the) Ceasars, Napoleon, Genghis Khan, etc. Bush's name, however, may well find its way there. The simple fact is: Bush lied - LIED - to get the use of the world's mightiest military ever to wreak havoc on a sovereign nation that, while under odious leadership, was still ... well ... sovereign and of no particular threat to this country. Left unchecked, Bush would have (may still) go further in his wars of conquest and imperialism. Rovergate, as you call it, is a key to the inside story. In and of itself, Rovergate is not all that big a deal, not in the here and now, but in the longer view of historians. But as a key, it is huge, if put to good use.

No, Watergate is small potatoes. The Rove issue is potentially huge ... biblically huge.

[enid602]

20. Nixon

Nixon secretly carpet-bombed Laos and Cambodia for a good while without the consent of Congress. Members of his own party could not constrain him. The Watergate burglary, while serious was merely the straw that broke the camel's back, and the most effective tool to oust Nixon.

[Stinky The Clown]

24. Yes. And ...... ?

Nixon got handed the Vietnam War which was started under a Democrat, He did stupoid things, but the fact is, we were already there. The Cambodian and Loatian incursions were tactical fuckups, but not nearly what we've just done in Iraq .... where there was no war until idiot son started one.

And what were Nixon's motives for those incursions?

Empire? Probably not.

Oil (or other resources)? Nope.

Stupidity? Probably.

Nope, idiot son is far, far worse than Nixon.

As I said, Nixon was no good guy. But he was far, far better than idiot son. As has been so often discussed right here on DU in various polls .... Nixon was a saint compared to idiot son.

POlease keep in mind ... I'm not a Nixon apologist. I'm just comparing a bad guy to the epitome of evil. Given **only** those two choices, I'll take bad guy any day of the week.

[Quixote1818]

15. Rovegate is about 'Fixing Intelligence' to send us to a bogus war

Even if they can only get him on Perjury or defrauding the gov. by lying to the press. It all started with trying to fix CIA intelligence and make it look like Iraq would soon become a Nuclear threat.

Rovegate is 100000 times worse. Over 1,700 Americans dead and tens of thousands of Iraq's dead and it's far from over.

[Quixote1818]

36. Self Delete

[cascadiance]

19. Heck, it seems like we've already had the fundamental crimes in Watergate

already done here this time around...

Though not linked to the administration yet, didn't we just have the Ohio Dem headquarters broken into a week ago too?

There is SO much more stuff this time around that isn't being told through the mass media that's crying to be investigated, I have no doubt that the effects of this conspiracy are a lot worse this time. And without any Rovegate "tapes", it's going to be that much harder to piece together the proof needed to get these guys out with a partisan congress in place (and perhaps now an even more partisan court).

[BushFungus]

21. Read

"Worse than Watergate" by John W. Dean. He contends this is far worse.

I agree. Nixon didn't go after someone's wife and put her life in danger. Rove did.

[sam sarrha]

22. this might help with the answer..... ...........Link>>

http://www.democraticunderground.com./discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x66773

this is serious with chaney maybe committing Treason to cover up committing Treason.. by F'n up the entire CIA stable of operatives in the middle east to save his sorry greedy ass.

we could not have to be deal with Nuclear weapons in N Korea, Pakistan or Iran, not be in a needless war in Iraq if it had not been for the Greed of Chaney..

[salin]

23. Imagine, selling a war on trumped up WMDs... and then blowing up

a major intel operation that tracked WMDs in an effort to prevent them from getting to our enemies.

Get it - for political gain - National Security was compromised; and for real-live irony - the issue used to sell the war (WMDs in rogue states) is EXACTLY what Rove compromised in terms of the ability to track to prevent WMDs being used against the US.

[teknomanzer]

26. YES! YES! Exactly YES!

what you just said is the very point, the very kernel... The irony of it is tremendous, and the shameless audacity of the act to me is almost without example. They basically destroyed a network to find WMD just so they could attack a country with no WMD! They increased the security threat to our country twice and over. I know that may not fit the constitutional definition of treason, but it still stinks of treason to me!

Alas, I am not about to say that this will be the scandal that ends the occupation of the White House... so much has happened in the past and nothing has brought them down yet... I will not get my hopes up this time...

[Quixote1818]

28. This needs to be our talking points right here

I wrote a letter to the editor saying basically the same thing you just said. In my opinion this is so corrupt and so fucking ironic it blows the mind yet hardly anyone is pointing this out.

[Jack Rabbit]

35. It shows that protecting Americans from WMDs was never a real concern

This was about remaining in power and using it for its own sake.

[HR_Pufnstuf]

32. neither

Downinggate is bigger.

[Jack Rabbit]

34. The term Rovegate is catchy, but it doesn't cover it

Of course, to be fair, Watergate didn't cover all of the crimes and abuses of power of the Nixon White House, either.

The scandal isn't simply the outing of Valerie Plame. Rove (or whoever) and his co-conspirators in the White House didn't do that out of blue. They did it to protect a system of deception that led to the invasion of Iraq.

The regime lied to the American people, the people of the world, to Congress and the United Nations. Bush and company knew damn good and well that Saddam was a paper tiger with no working relationship with Islamist terror networks; they knew that any honest discussion about invading Iraq would have resulted in a complete lack of public support for their cause. They would have had to content themselves with nation building in resource-poor Afghanistan ("no good targets," as Rumsfeld said) and hunting real terrorists where they were.

Joseph Wilson did not sign on to go to Niger and investigate claims about Saddam attempting to buy yellowcake uranium just to have his work dissembled. This man is no coward; when he was acting ambassador to Iraq in 1990, he gave American citizens shelter in the US embassy in Baghdad against Saddam's decree and dared Saddam to hang him. With whom did Bush and the neoconservatives think they were dealing? By exposing the lies and dissembling of the regime, Wilson showed could stand up to the tyrant Bush as easily as he stood up to the tyrant Saddam.

While Nixon stewed in his juices for the last sixteen months of his term in office, many Americans visualized him leaving office in disgrace and then being prosecuted in federal court along with his former aides for obstruction of justice.

The charges against Bush and his aides are much more serious. These people decided to invade an resource-rich sovereign state and then went looking for reasons, fixing facts and intelligence around the policy. They fabricated facts and dissembled intelligence to start an entirely unnecessary war when America had more pressing matters at hand that required the military resources squandered by the Bush regime on this colonial misadventure.

Rovegate doesn't cover it. This is less about Karl Rove exposing a covert operative than Watergate was about a third-rate burglary and a clumsy attempt to cover it up.

This is no third-rate burglary or sicking the IRS on political "enemies". This is sending American troops into a war for reasons unrelated to national security and lying about those reasons. These are war crimes. We are visualizing that after Bush, Rove and their friends are removed from power in disgrace, they will answer for their crimes before a Nuremberg-like international tribunal.

And that they should.

[Hamlette]

38. Watergate was not about spying on the other party

it was the cover-up. Both parties spy on each other, not sure to the level of bugging but it wouldn't suprise me. What really did it for Nixon was him lying about what he knew and when and that he used the CIA to spy on the FBI about the investigation.

Some crimes were very similar. Breaking into Daniel Ellsberg's shrink's office was done to discredit the source of the Pentagon Papers. Which seems what Plame is about. Discredit the source instead of answering the charges.

Some here say Nixon was not so bad. I hated him with a passion but after Reagan I started to agree, he was not worse than Reagan. Between Reagan and Bush I think it is a toss up in terms of what has happened to America. Reagan didn't start a war but he destroyed respect for education. That's my biggest beef. We're still feeling the effects of that.

[Innoma]

41. Watergate was a small thread...

...that, when tugged on by enterprising reporters, unravelled all kinds of behind-the-scenes skulduggery by Nixon officials. I don't think Watergate was so much about the actual break in as it was about all the obstruction of justice that went on after the fact. The break-in itself was probably a rather small thing; just another round in the continual search for political dirt. What the break-in exposed was all the ways the Nixon administration was willing to subvert laws to suit their political ends.

The Plame Affair seems much worse in my opinion. Its just another small thread in the hundreds of misdeeds and misdirections of the current administration that could potentially be the one that unravels all the skulduggery of the Bush Cabal. The difference, of course, is there doesn't seem to be any tenacious reporters on the case, nor are there any Deep Throats coming out to expose the lies. Even if there were, it hardly seems likely that our media will do much to get the story out there in the public view.

While Nixon was a flawed, petty and vindictive man by all accounts, he doesn't hold a candle to Bush and Co. with their rampant arrogance and misplaced delusions of grandeur. I mean, Bush is so bad that it almost makes one nostalgic for Nixon!

EDIT: I didn't mean for this to be a direct response to the msg above, just a general response to the overall topic.