Islamist terrorism is a threat, whether you believe it or not

[fujiyama]

Let me be clear. I have no more problem with Islam than I do with Christianity or any other religion.

However, one thing I find disturbing is an inability of some to even admit that there are those out there that CLAIM to be Muslim doing terrible things.

Religious extremism IS a threat, and that threat doesn't come only from Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell.

This leads me to the recent MIHOP posts. I'm not interested in discussing the theory because it holds little credibility with me but I am not interested in shutting anyone up. What irritates me more is when MIHOP proponents try to paint someone as racist when they do think the attacks were caused by Islamist extremists. MIHOP proponents are often guilty of exactly what they are condemning. No, I am not a paid shill and I do not "drink the kool aid" and am not racist, if I believe that a plane hit the pentagon, that the WTC was not a planned demolition, and that those attacks and those on London were done by Islamist extremists, possibly of Arabic decent.


Note, I use the term "Islamist", not "Islamic" or "Muslim". By "Islamist" I am referring to theocratic fanatics - those that want to impose their way on the world.

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[kentuck]

2. And it is getting worse every day...

When you find yourself in a hole, stop digging.

[ixion]

3. all extremism is bad

whether it's Islamic, Xian, political or any other type.

[justinsb]

4. Terrorism is a threat

be it Christian, Muslim, Jewish or other, whether it is done by suicide bombers on the street, car bombs at the curb or from Stealth Bombers thousands of feet in the air - it's all the same thing.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

5. I agree with you.

Particularly on religious extremism in general and the differentiation between "Islamist" and "Islamic."

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

6. All terror is bad

as all hatred is destructive.

Islamist terrorists, to use your term, are using Islam as a shield and excuse for doing acts that are against the teachings of the Holy Qur'an. Shouldn't be surprising, as some "Christian" extremists have used the Bible as an excuse for their terrible deeds as well (the Inquisition pops to mind).

I think what brings a lot of people down when terrorism and Islam are discussed are two facts:

1. Many people in this country equate the religion of Islam with terrorism, and think all Muslims are terrorists and should be deported (I've heard this to my face-my husband has heard worse;his life was threatened)

2. These same people, and some others who are more tolerant, have the idea that moderate/progressive Muslims can somehow "reign in" these terrorists cells. They can't-any more than a Unitarian/Universalist could "reign in" Jerry Falwell and his ilk. In Saudi Arabia, my branch of Islam (Sufism) is outlawed, and that is not the only Islamic country that persecutes Sufis. I can do what I can do here, which is set up a dialog between people of different faiths. Sufi teachers are doing this all the time, but I bet you never hear about it because the news media don't think its important to broadcast this information.

[fujiyama]

8. Good post

and I agree completely. Mainstream Muslims here and abroad don't have anything to do with terrorism and have as much to do with Osama as the ordinary person that propheses to be Christian, has to do with Fred Phelps.

Islam has no central authority and no control structure so there is nothing you or most followers can do to stop the extremists.

[yurbud]

24. I eagerly await Bush releasing Saudi pages from 9/11 inquiry

so we can see who and why in their government is funding these nuts.

In many cases, these guys come from countries where we help keep dictators in power, so religion is the only way for a young guy full of idealism can channel his energy.

Few are so stupid to think they can take over the world by blowing things up. They could do a hundred 9/11s, and they'd still never be able to take control of the US--no one would support them here.

Mostly, they want us to let them decide how to run their own countries and who to sell their own oil to.

Read some history like what we did to the democratically elected president of Iran in the 50s.

It does no good to think of other people in comic book terms. You have to understand their real motives to combat them correctly, not the steaming dog shit of propaganda you hear from Rush, Hannity, O'Reilly, and Coulter. Go back and read what those geniuses said before the Iraq War. Either they were idiots or they intentionally lied to you. Either way, they were dead wrong about how this war would go, and ignored the history of the region, and even our history with Saddam, who committed his worst atrocities when he was our good buddy.

Hillbilly Hitler art:



Blog:

[stray cat]

7. Terrorist acts against civilians are a threat no matter who does it.

We're crazy if we think otherwise.

[Old and In the Way]

9. You mean like when HOPer's are smeared as "Holocaust Deniers"

or anti-Semites, or Crypto-fascists?

BTW, I know that there are crazy people willing to commit terror and they reside in every country on the planet.

You are certainly free to believe whatever you want. Personally, I'll wait until we have an independent investigation into 9/11 before I'll assign the blame to any specific group of people. But if those were crazy Saudi Arabian Islamic fundies that flew those planes on 9/11...we certainly taught those secular Iraqi's one hell of a lesson!

[Behind the Aegis]

11. What in the world are you talking about?

[Old and In the Way]

18. You don't know?

This will explain....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1915949

[Behind the Aegis]

25. That doesn't explain anything,

What does a purge on KOS has to do with your statement "You mean like when HOPer's are smeared as "Holocaust Deniers" or anti-Semites, or Crypto-fascists?"

The only time I have ever seen these so-called "smears" is when anti-Semitic sites are used as sources. Then, usually, the smears deal with site and not the poster, who may be chastised for using an anti-Semitic clearinghouse for information. Just because there is 'interesting' information on a site, should it posted here? What if the source site is David Duke? the KKK? the Aryan Brotherhood? Does the 'interesting' article get some type of "pass?"

On edit: Forgot to italicize.

[Old and In the Way]

29. Deleted.

[Old and In the Way]

30. I have to apologize to fugiyama..........

In rereading her post, I think I miscontrued what she was saying....you are right Behind the Aegis, it's not relevant to the OP. My apologies.

[undeterred]

10. Yes its a threat

but until we are allowed to see the evidence, how can we know who is committing these acts?

Claims of responsibility are made for many reasons other than that they are actually responsible. Groups are blamed without a shred of evidence being presented to the public. If we had a more transparent government which didn't patronize us by treating us like we can't handle the truth, perhaps we would have a more rational idea who is to be feared.

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Garfield Goose]

20. Terrific Post!! eom.

[H2O Man]

13. I agree.

I think that MIHOP is similar to believing that Grant made the Little BigHorn happen on purpose.

[sandnsea]

14. Fanaticism is a threat

Whether it's abortion clinic bombers, minutemen at the borders, anti-WTO anarchists, or any other bunch of people who use violence for political purposes. Including the Neocons, who are just ideological fanatics with the threat of nuclear bombs.

[seabeyond]

15. i am not blind, yes it is a threat. we have aggravated it

not calmed it in our actions over the last three years. after 9/11 we were presented with a world wide opportunity to squash this. they were much smaller, had a lot less support. we blew it. we validated their existance by going to war with them. we ended up looking like the bad guys. geez, to an extent we became the bad guys, as sorry as i am to say.

[EVDebs]

16. And it threatens Islam actually more than the West !

Those jihadists inside Western democracies responsible for these bombings will end up causing immigration to cease and deportations to rise. Those left behind in majority Islamic states within less than thirty years, when most of the world's oil is gone, will be in even further economic turmoil.

Just read Bernard Lewis's What Went Wrong
www.theatlantic.com/issues/2002/01/lewis.htm

or Irshad Manji's website The Trouble With Islam
www.muslim-refusenik.com/

Instead of Bush's "bring it on" talk, which incites an identical response, we in the US are just getting no real 'big picture' dialogue. At least the Big Dawg, Bill Clinton, could give a coherent speech laying out the details of a situation and spelling out exactly why he was taking a specific course of action point by point.

The simian responses we get from the White House are simply appalling to not only us but the rest of the entire world. Bush SHOULD be laying it onto these Islamic jihadists IN SPADES. By allowing the Islamic world to remain mired ... and not discussing it in detail...only lets the "Crusader" label seem to fit as the Islamic world's easy-way-out response.

[Imajika]

17. Completely agree...

It is obvious that many here dismiss all Islamic terrorism as a relatively insignificant phenomena caused by US and Western imperialism. Sure, Bush's adventure in Iraq has been counterproductive, but these fanatics were plotting and launching attacks against the US and other Western targets long before that.

It is amazing to me that progressives anywhere would actually sometimes even find some twisted common cause with these Islamists fanatics. These religious fundamentalists stand in opposition to literally everything the left represents - other than perhaps, for some, a hatred of Western capitalism. The enemy of my enemy is NOT always a friend.

The idea that Islamists terrorists wouldn't strike in Europe if only the US and her allies hadn't invaded Iraq is to simply have no grasp of the alienation and seething hatred many Muslims from Britain, to France, to Germany have for the very nations in which they reside. The idea that these religious fanatics can be reasoned with, if we would only try to understand their greviences is dangerously foolish.

The current plague of Islamic radicalism was spread via oil wealth out of Saudi Arabia. The seeds of violence and fanaticism are already sewn from Europe, to Asia, to the United States. Saudi Arabia is the root of this Wahabbist evil. Unfortunantly, even if we prevented the Kingdom from exporting this violent ideology now it is probably too late in the short run.

Attacks on European targets will intensify - whether a particular country took part in Iraqi Freedom or not. The US is probably a bit safer, but it will be hit again as well. I fear, in time, the West will grow so distrustful of the Muslims living amongst them that we will one day see mass internements and deportations. The only way to derail this clash of civilizations is for the vast majority of honest, peaceful Muslim moderates to stand up, speak out and rigorously police their own communities. That is not happening at this time.

And for the record, Xtian fanatics are just as bad. All religious fanatics are dangerous. The fact is though, the Xtian fundamentalists have been largely kept in check - especially in Europe. Even in the US, Xtian wingnuts don't even have the slightest prayer of enacting religious law that requires women cover up, stay at home, recieve no education, etc. We are always on our guard ofcourse, but in the West, progressive ideology is winning the battle ideas - in spite of Bush Jr. and his cronies.

Imajika

[geek tragedy]

19. Indeed. The big problem with Bush is that, as a tool of fundies himself,

he is completely unable to figure out, or even summon the will, to resist extremism.

Those most threatened by the Islamist radicals are Islamic feminists, liberals, reformists, and secularists. Bin Laden wants to kill many of us and terrorize us into submission, but he wants to wipe those people off the face of the planet.

[welshTerrier2]

21. "theocratic fanatics - those that want to impose their way on the world."

just a few points on your post ...

first, re: LIHOP and MIHOP, it's interesting to note that even in acknowledging that Islamist terrorism exists, one need not conclude that 9/11 was NOT orchestrated by bush and the neo-cons ... the two certainly are not necessarily mutually exclusive ...

second, you made the point that Islamist fanatics want to "impose their way on the world" ... what evidence do you point to to support this conclusion?

would it be the Iranian hostage crises that was precipitated largely after years of abuse by the US-supported Shah of Iran? would it be 9/11 itself? assuming you put the blame for the 9/11 tragedy on Islamist terrorists, is it your view that this was an effort to "impose their way on the world"?

i would readily admit to not being overly familiar with the use of terrorism in the Islamist world ... but it seems to me, and i don't cite this as a justification, that much of the terrorism we've seen in the Middle East has been a direct reaction to US imperialism ... this, then, would be less about theocracy and more about self-defense ... in my view, the killing of innocent civilians is never justfied but it's hard to pin Islamist terrorism solely on religious fanaticism ...

perhaps it's legitimate to examine the conduct of our own government as a cause for the terrorist violence we both abhor ...

[Deja Q]

22. So is *. So is oil. When will people figure it ot that our 'society' is

a doomed one?

[ole_evil_eye]

23. i see your point

Islamic extremists are a huge danger, both to America and the rest of the world. But we as Americans can't let bigotry get the best of us. I mean, I don't want any innocent Arab Americans getting sent to camps like the Japanese were after Pear Harbor.

It is good to hear many Muslim groups condemning what happened in London. Maybe that will help a little bit with the racism and bigotry that many Arab Americans feel permeates this country

[DireStrike]

26. Car crashes are a larger threat than terrorism

But the problem with terrorism is that the mindset could lead to much nastier things. Cars kill the same amounts of people every year, but terrorism could get worse. We must do what we can to stomp out ideologies of hatred without creating new ones or strengthening the old ones.

[laura888]

27. Suicide car bombings were non-existent in Iraq prior to our invasion

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/09/AR2005070901425.html

I think that in many (perhaps most) cases, terrorist acts are done by those opposing policies of nations much stronger than their own.

See above link for a review of a book by a scholar who studied hundreds of such attackers.

Examples of these are numerous, including the IRA, and India when they were resistant to British colonialism.

[Jacobin]

28. I share your frustration at the unwillingness of some to acknowledge

the simple statement of fact which is undeniably true.

In the quest to join in some sort of tribal vilification of the other political party, sometimes all resort to reason is lost.