Let's be honest for a moment about the Rove thing ...

[Pepperbelly]

If it turns out that they can prove that he was the one who outed Ms. Plame, then it will become an issue of the text of the law under which he is prosecuted. I do not believe that treason can be made to stick nor even the law forbidding the identification of agents, mainly due to the requirement of the law that the agent be on foreign soil. There may be something to perjury. Who knows?

The real value of this imbroglio is the stinking, petty, vindictive nature of these useless bastards being lain bare for all to see. If the only positive outcome is to awaken the media (witness the Press Conference today with attendent savaging of Scott McClellen) then it will be a huge net positive for the truth.

If it further manages to open the eyes of the citizenry to the onslaught they'd slept through these past 4 + years, then it will be a blessing on our house.

[lancdem]

1. I'm pretty sure the investigation goes way beyond Rove

We'll know soon enough.

[NYC Liberal]

4. What did Bush** know and when did he know it? n/t

[Carni]

12. What I heard framed today

Was that the way Rove learned that Plame was a covert agent had to have come from bush himself (this is not proven per say but this was what I heard stated and I cannot recall who said it or on what show)
I hope this leads to bush which we know damned well is the case.

[ewagner]

2. We naturally hope

for more....

we naturally, because it is in our nature as Democrats, to hope that the whole, nasty administration comes tumbling down under the weight of their own corruption.

If, however, is leads ONLY to an adversarial relationship with the press for the rest of the boy king's term....well...that's something at least.

[whistle]

3. What about the dead CIA operatives who were exposed as the...

...result of naming Plame as a CIA link? Someone has to be accountable and responsible for exposing them and the resulting deaths due by that exposure. Whoever outed Plame outed them also.

[Pepperbelly]

14. I have heard that batted around but have never managed ...

to chase it to its source. Do you have a link for it because I would sure use it.

I really don't mean to sound cynical but with these rotten bastards, what are 20 or so more dead people to them? The real problem with everything this fucker has done since he drove up in 01 is that he has created such a target rich environment that it is difficult to pick out a specific thing and stick with it because there are just so damned many.

Can you imagine the furor had Clinton put an industry buddy to work in the government and that lobbying fuck changed official government reports to obscure real problems? And that is one of the very LEAST things these sons of bitches have done.

:grr:

[Zorbuddha]

5. My barometer is WH behavior

Consider how they are reacting...

It's telling.



sp

[Cocoa]

6. Bush soft on national security

the dems are hammering on the essence of the whole thing, and Olbermann nailed it better than anyone else.

[jsamuel]

7. Everyone always forgets the easiest one, CONSPIRACY

That law is very easy to convict someone in public office of, because he would be defrauding the american public. Not to mention that if anyone else knew about this or contributed, then they would go down too.

[sendero]

8. I agree...

... I'm not getting my hopes up that Rove will actually be convicted of a crime. He should be, but we all know that justice might be blind but it can still see money and power, and the monied and powerful rarely get justice.

But there are plenty of people who are going to be disgusted with this. There are plenty of folks who are going to realize that what we've been saying about this bunch is true - they don't care one bad fuck about America, they only care about themselves.

[rzemanfl]

9. We are thinking along the same lines. I posted this in another

thread yesterday:

Look, their story is essentially this, "We are dirty vindictive
bastards who tried to discredit a truthful public servant because his story interfered with our plan to start a war under false pretenses, BUT WE DID NOT BREAK THE SPECIFIC LAW REGARDING DISCLOSING THE IDENTITY OF A COVERT AGENT." So why don't we just say, "fine, now please explain why dirty vindictive lying bastards are allowed to work at the White House."

[Solly Mack]

10. Ever wonder what happened to Plame's assets (if any)?

once she was outted?

[yodermon]

25. Ever wonder what's in Fitzgeralds "voluminous classified findings?"

see http://www.huffingtonpost.com/theblog/archive/lawrence-odonnell/the-one-very-good-reason-_3769.html

Judge Tatel’s opinion has eight blank pages in the middle of it where he discusses the secret information the prosecutor has supplied only to the judges to convince them that the testimony he is demanding is worth sending reporters to jail to get. The gravity of the suspected crime is presumably very well developed in those redacted pages. Later, Tatel refers to “Having carefully scrutinized {the prosecutor’s} voluminous classified filings.”

I think there are many things in those eight redacted pages. Many, many interesting things. :popcorn:

[Solly Mack]

30. Yes, among other things I've wondered

that's been one of them.

[two gun sid]

11. I couldn't agree more...

if the press will wake up and start questioning WH policy more that would be a victory in my opinion. If no one goes to jail, but, bush's presidency is hamstrung by revelations of criminality and is no longer able to force a RW agenda on us I could live with that.

Yes, I would love to see the whole gang of fixers and thugs locked up, but, I'll settle for the bush administration being hurt and crippled.

[spanone]

13. Amen!

[lapfog_1]

15. What did he say to investigators and grand juries

it's almost never about the "crime" (though this time we can hope),
but rather the cover up that follows. It doesn't matter if Rove
"knowingly" or "unknowingly" outed Valerie... it's more important if
he tried to deny that he even talked about her. And saying that
he never used her name (the "it's Joe Wilson's wife" defense) is
just not going to fly at all.

[Pepperbelly]

17. like I said ...

Perjury? Who knows?

But we already do seem to have at least one bird in the hand and that is more than we've had for a while. Feels GOOD to see the press hound these rotten, lying bastards just a little bit. I would love for Miller to do every minute of her time just to keep her buddies stirred up.

[indepat]

16. If I were Prez and my DCOS purportedly did this without a green light,

he'd be outta' there so fast....

[Pepperbelly]

19. unless you were in on it ... or maybe particularly if you were.

:shrug:

[KittyWampus]

18. There's Always The Court Of Public Opinion

[Dr Fate]

20. Truly the highest court- WE HAVE A WINNER!!!

This seems to be lost on half of DU when it comes tot he DSM, Gannon or Plame- it's about public perception & opinion- we dont need actual impeachment or proscecution to use various Bush scandals in '06 & '08.

[Ladyinblack]

21. Joe Wilson

If Rove is guilty he is guilty regardless of if Wilson lied or not. However that seems to be an ongoing republican response, "Wilson lied and that makes Rove okay". My question is did wilson lie? If he did what about?

[Pepperbelly]

22. I can't see how that could possibly be relevant to anything.

What are they thinking?

It is an attempt to divert attnetion. Ever watch MST3K? One episode ... one of the robots, in an uncomfortable delimma,shouted to Mike as he pointed, "Look! An incredibly large distraction" Of course, Mike went for it and the bot scurried away. That's what they're doing ...

[Cash]

23. Yes, let's be honest.

Real honest.

The burden isn't "outing Plame", it's "outing Plame knowing she was a covert agent". So far all that's been said is that Rove made it known that Wilson going to Niger was authorized by his wife (Plame) and not by the WH or FBI or anyone else. That's not "knowingly outing a covert agent". No one's even in that neighborhood of proof. Also, preliminary reports say that Cooper's testimony, the Newsweek e-mails, and Rove's grand jury testimony all are in agreement.

As far as the media, who trusts them? The left? The right? If they start in on it, it's gonna be "that damned left-wing media." If they don't, it's gonna be "that damned corporate whore media." No one's listening. It's summertime, and in an off-election year to boot.

People here are seeing things of which, quite frankly, I'm just not seeing any evidence. I know how excited many are over these things, but I've been down this road before on another progressive board and as a casual observer of this site. People tend to get caught up in the emotions of the event and this has all the appearances of being just another big disappointment. It's deja vu all over again.

My prediction: It'll be determined that Plame was never "outed" since she was not covert, that it was "well known in DC circles that she worked for the CIA", and it'll be dropped. I'm not placing bets, it's just a hunch.

[Samantha]

24. There is another charge close to treason that prosecutors sometimes

use. I cannot say exactly what it is called, but it is something like the illegal handling of classified information. I believe Aldrige Ames was charged with this crime, even though many thought the acts he had committed were treasonous. Because of the difficulty of proving treason, this lesser charge is often used instead. However, the penalty for the crime is often what the prosecutor says is reasonable. For example, although the death penalty is not often used, it can be used if the crime is heinous enough. Usually, there is some bargaining chip used. The government wants all of the information so as assessment can be made as to the damages caused. Thus people like Ames will be given life in prison in exchange for information.

I am not saying that divulging that "Wilson's wife" was a CIA operative is the same caliber of crime as that perpetuated by Ames, I am simply suggesting there are other charges similar to treason but not as difficult to prove open to the prosecutor.

And a finer point is this: some time ago there was an issue of a White House official, or someone with a high security clearance passing extremely sensitive classified information purported to Chalabi, who, it was openly suggested, gave the information to the Iranians. This was a big story about a year ago, and often when it was carried in the news there were allegations of treason. Chalabi had no clearance to receive classified information, and the passing of the information to the Iranians opened the door to learning the identity of many Americans operating covertly as well as Iranian insurgents aiding us. Tenet was furious. It was said this act could cost thousands of lives.

While there is no apparent connection between that story and this story, I bring it up a second time for this reason. It took the same type of person to commit both acts.

Additionally, there was the revelation that a Prince from Saudi Arabia was shown the war plans for Iraq shortly before the war was started. I believe this was in Richard Clarke's book, but I can say that for sure without doublechecking. The mishandling of classified information seems to be a chronic disease permeating the White House. That disease, also found during the Nixon administration, was termed then "a cancer on the presidency" by John Dean. This is exactly the same problem infecting the Bush* White House. I don't know exactly what label will be affixed to this disorder, but I believe it will terminate in the death of a presidency.

[Pepperbelly]

26. any idea of what the statutory requirements are?

The elements of the crime, I mean.

[Samantha]

28. This small article simply refers to it as "mishandling of classified

information."

http://www.nysun.com/article/14523

To answer your question, this is not my area of expertise. My general understanding is that this charge is sometimes used when a person is suspected of treasonous activity simply because it's easier to prove. Ames' case is regarded as treasonous by those in the intelligence community. As I said above, this charge was levied in exchange for information.

Plato Cacheris also represented Robert Hanson. I will see if I can find out what exact charge was levied against him.

I think the range runs from a high degree of treachery to relative misdemeanors. But as I said I am no expert on this subject. We need to ask Plato. I will see what else I can find.

On edit: Pollard was charged with "passing classified information." Actually "passing" is the word I first started to type above, but I wasn't absolutely sure that was it, so I used "mishandled" to be safe. I think "passing" is the proper word.

[Pepperbelly]

29. very cool ...

With these Bush Bastards, it's like being in a tornado of incompetence, as though the wind had picked up gravel and was hurling it at us hard enough to do serious damage with so many damned hits, you can't even tell what hurts the most.

Forgive me ... I wax metaphorical.

[brettdale]

27. kick

kick