For those who may call me a conspiracy theorist. Please read this:

[NoSheep]

This statement, made by a "senior advisor to Bush" is one of the most chilling I've ever read. I believe the speaker could easily be Rove and the hubris, unmistakably BushCo.
This is why I question everything. And I mean everything.

Written by Ron Suskind in the NY Times Magazine Oct 17, 2004:

snip

In the summer of 2002, after I had written an article in Esquire that the White House didn't like about Bush's former communications director, Karen Hughes, I had a meeting with a senior adviser to Bush. He expressed the White House's displeasure, and then he told me something that at the time I didn't fully comprehend -- but which I now believe gets to the very heart of the Bush presidency.

The aide said that guys like me were ''in what we call the reality-based community,'' which he defined as people who ''believe that solutions emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality.'' I nodded and murmured something about enlightenment principles and empiricism. He cut me off. ''That's not the way the world really works anymore,'' he continued. ''We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality -- judiciously, as you will -- we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out. We're history's actors . . . and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do.''

snip


http://cscs.umich.edu/~crshalizi/sloth/2004-10-16b.html

[bj2110]

1. That's disgusting. And disappointing. And infuriating. nt

[RaleighNCDUer]

2. That is an astounding quote.

From the mention of 'empiricism' which the WH personage interpreted as a comment on empire, revealing astonishing hubris and ignorance in the same breath.

Frightening.

[wli]

3. neocolonialism

This same logic is responsible for the IMF/WTO "austerity" crap. Indeed, look where Wolfowitz is now.

[NoSheep]

6. Wolfowitz' assignment made me gag just yesterday...so hard to believe.

:puke:

[NoSheep]

4. Help keep this kicked if you think it is important-

I'll come back after press conference and kick it up.

:kick:

[City Lights]

5. I remember reading that when it came out.

It gave me the chills.

I sent it to a friend who was thinking of voting for bush. It gave her the creeps - especially all the stuff about religion - but it made no difference. She voted chimp anyway, 'cause she felt he'd do a better job fighting terra. :grr:

Thanks for posting this. I'm sure there are people here who haven't read it yet.

[NoSheep]

8. Yes. I feel if more read it, suspicion would be more widely understood.

:hi:

[DireStrike]

7. Myself, I'm just amazed that there are people who haven't heard it. -nt-

[NoSheep]

10. One needs also to remember it!

;-)

[SheepyMcSheepster]

9. kick!

[NoSheep]

11. Thanks SheepyMcSheepster. BTW...we aren't related are we?

:D

[SheepyMcSheepster]

15. i think we are related in how we view the general public

:hi:

[NoSheep]

16. Gotcha!

:hi:

[leveymg]

12. Very Straussian: Rule by Deception & Planned Chaos

The very opposite of "a nation of laws and not of men." Somehow, I think the latter principles will prevail in this case.

Jail is a reality-based community, as Rove and others are about to find out. :7

[NoSheep]

13. I sure hope so!

[beam me up scottie]

14. I've read this several times.

I don't trust him either.

But that's not enough for me to justify implicating thousands of people in a conspiracy with no evidence.

That's the difference.

Yes, bush and his cartel will stop at nothing to get what they want, but I will never be convinced that EVERYONE else involved was on the take without evidence.

This is not an either/or issue.

I can distrust the government without believing in a conspiracy theory that has nothing but suspicion to back it up.

[RaleighNCDUer]

19. If EVERYONE else was involved, it wouldn't be a conspiracy,

it would be a movement.

Conspiracy is, by nature, secretive. It involves barely a couple dozen of the cabal's inner circle, who then influence hundreds of (mostly willing) dupes. Those hundreds in turn influence power structures and populations.

OTOH, since much of the conspiracy's plan is outlined by PNAC, I'm not really sure it can be called a conspiracy. More truthfully it could be called an open plot to overthrow the united states government.

PNAC. Project for a New American Century. If you know about it, read it again. If not, look it up.

[NoSheep]

21. Thank you NCevilDUer. PNAC is enough. Conspiracy, hell!

:-(

[beam me up scottie]

26. I've read it.

I've read about ALL of the CT's, maybe not the hundreds of different versions, but enough to remain unconvinced.

But because I ask for evidence, I will now be accused of either being too stupid to "understand" like you do, or of trusting the msm and the government.

I don't fit into either of those two categories and neither do the other skeptics on DU.


edited to clarify that I am referring to CT's in general.

[nashville_brook]

30. "conspiracy" is one of those words that makes minds turn off

as it has been used in the recent frau frau, it pertains to outlandish speculation. but that's not the meaning of the word which is: a secret plan to do something unlawful.

[beam me up scottie]

31. Thanks, I am aware of the difference.

I was speaking about the CT's that are not based in reality.

Particularly the stuff that we've been bombarded with since the London attack and since KOS kicked the theorists off his site.

[grace0418]

17. I'm right there with you NoSheep

It's impossible to overestimate the lengths to which BushCo will go to gain and retain total power. Call me a conspiracy theorist if you like.

[paula777]

18. So much fucking arrogance - I so hope that thier ship sinks

and that will be their new reality

[nolabels]

20. Frankly no one really needed to say any thing like that

Their actions speak volumes and way more than than their cheap form of ju jitsu talking points could ever hope to elicit

[warsager]

22. a coup then?

How to get them out?

How many people actually believe we will get rid of these crooks via the political process?

[nolabels]

35. Politics in relative terms not conventional

Only foolishness would concoct a road map to do it conventionally. They make it up as they go along and rules don't apply.

The more minds you have on the subject the harder for the worm to get out of the can. Critical mass is like that

[Alizaryn]

23. Welcome to the wonderful world of Oz.

Maybe we need to start a RUBY SHOE campaign? World wide at the same moment we can click out heels in unison!

[Carni]

24. "The votes have been counted and recounted and counted again"

The votes had not been counted at all but that is what the American public was told and from there on out we have been prisoners of the bush admin's false *reality*

[XemaSab]

25. That always reminds me

of the dude in the movie se7en.

He's got some similar ideas.

[Just Me]

27. Sounds exactly like the "Landmark Forum" brainwashing.

No matter what the facts, you are to create/invent something beyond them. I always had concern that the framework of that seminar would be abused in such a way.

[Desertrose]

28. The clues of their intent are so blatant ....

and yet so unbelievable to so many....they just block it out of thier reality and go on with life as usual.

I just can't help but wonder why more aren't asking some tough questions....and I agree that what the neocons have planned does require at the very least, cooperation. Conspiracy....it is definitely possible.

I still say their arrogance will be their downfall....and hopefully it will happen before ours.

I am curious why asking questions and looking deeper has gotten the :tinfoilhat: label when all I really want are answers I can trust as being honest. Bushco is all murk and where there is murk , there is....:shrug:

I don't understand why some are so anxious to dismiss evidence that points to more stuff below the radar.........??

But hey, thats just me ...I like all the answers.

on edit-I like to GET all the answers but don't always LIKE all the answers I get LOL

[warsager]

34. In my not so humble opinion

I think people are afraid to question. They don't want reality getting in the way of their comfy lives. Just the fact that our president can say, "We will fight them over there so we don't have to fight them here.'!! I mean, what the F is that about??

Over there is ALWAYS someone else's here! I am SURE the Iraqis don't mind that we are using their country as the battleground for the war on terra. What a bunch of bullshit.

I think people are so anxious to dismiss evidence because they need to rush home to watch American Idol or "reality" TV that is as far from reality as you can get.

What's wrong with these people? These 42% (or whatever it is now) that still support Bush and his lies? Well, they have cozy lives that they don't want disrupted by annoying things like death and destruction.

Hard to understand how quickly we forget the horrors of 911.

When I 1st read 1984 I was pretty disappointed in the end. At the end when Winston believes in all the lies, I just couldn't bare it. But, now, as more time goes on, the more I almost understand that. It's so much easier to live in the perfect bubble of lies that is feed to the majority of Americans who gooble it up unquestionably.

What do you think the majority of the Germans thought during Hitler's time?

[Desertrose]

37. As long as people are not *directly* affected

they will let the next guy handle it if they don't flat out ignore it altogether.

I agree... short memories are not good.... and so true the saying "those who do not know history are doomed to repeat it." I wonder if that even still applies with history constantly being rewritten by the neocons, etc.

People buy it cause its easier than thinking for themselves.....

I think the majority of Germans felt "it can't happen here"....sounds familiar, doesn't it?

[warsager]

38. I think it is

way easier to believe things aren't that bad.

I think the majority of Germans felt "it can't happen here"....sounds familiar, doesn't it?

Yes, frighteningly so. Maybe WE are the ones that are crazy and everything is hunky dorey afterall!!

:shrug:

[hvn_nbr_2]

29. They think that they are God. n/t

[LibertyorDeath]

32. Says it all. I've read this quote many times before & the unmitigated

arrogance makes me :puke:

[frictionlessO]

33. Yet the anti-CTers, ignore statements like these....

How have they debunked this one? Does anyone know what the tin foil haters say about this?

[baby_mouse]

36. It's hardly a conspiracy if it's in NYT mag n/t