Does Islam have one leader just as the Catholic religion

[caty]

has the pope? If Islam has one leader or many top leaders, why don't they give a televised world wide speech condemning the terrorists and their actions? They could make the terrorists outcasts. If Islam is a peaceful religion, why don't we hear more outrage from their leaders?

[htuttle]

1. No, there aren't really any leaders

There are recognized scholars, etc... but no official hierarchy.

on edit:

To your second question, most of those scholars have already condemned attacks against civilians. It did about as much good as if the Pope and the Archbishop of Canterbury told people to stop fighting in Northern Ireland, ie., none.

[pointless]

7. I dunno about scholars

since they only study one book their whole lives.

[uppityperson]

15. So they study only 1 book.

That book can keep you really busy, trying to understand what it say and how to interpret it.

[Inland]

2. No, it's entirely decentralized.

I don't know the details, but there is no set hierarchy for all islam, and I believe no set hierarchy for any significant portion thereof. I think judaism would be a better analogy, where there are significant teachers and schools of thought that people belong to.

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[geek tragedy]

4. There ARE Muslim scholars who justify suicide bombings.

If you can find rabbis preaching that Jews are bound by the Torah to be miserly and control the media, please advise us.

[htuttle]

6. Define 'Muslim scholar'

Is there a degree of some kind? Maybe a license?

[pointless]

11. muslims do go to college

and get degrees. Just not the ones who studied one book their whole lives and are sitting as religious leaders giving out gods word on all sort of matters brought to them.

[geek tragedy]

18. In the Mideast, it is not at all uncommon to find imams, religious

scholars, clerics, and other assorted figures stating that suicide bombings against civilians are permissible under Islam.

Now, they don't represent the majority of Islam. But it's foolish to pretend that they don't exist, and that their voices don't get heard.

[atreides1]

14. Not Scholars Exactly

They are considered scientists of religion(in Arabic 'ulema ud-din).
These scientists may have varying interpretations and opinions but they all use essentially the same source material.

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

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[geek tragedy]

13. So pointing out uncontroversial facts is Islamaphobic?

Tsk tsk. Hard to have an intelligent conversation with people whose head is in the sand . . .

[Kraklen]

16. No. Blaming Islam for terrorism is Islamophobic.

Kind of like blaming homosexuals for child molestation. Do you that too?

[geek tragedy]

20. The obvious apparently needs to be explained.

There ARE Muslims who hold positions of religious authority that state that suicide bombings are permissible under Islam. Everyone, including you, knows that.

I don't blame Islam for terrorism. I blame homicidal fuckwits and their enablers who distort Islam for their sick agenda.

Just like I don't blame Christianity for the antics of abortion clinic bomber, but still can criticize radical Christian clerics and acknowledge their existence.

Now, and please let me know if I'm going too fast for you, do you understand the difference?

There are individuals who preach hatred in the name of Christianity, and there are people who preach hatred in the name of Islam.

Such people need to be denounced in particular by members of the faith that they profane with such vile pronouncements.

Comprende?

[Xithras]

25. I didn't see anyone blame Islam for terrorism.

There's a big difference between blaming Islam for terrorism, and stating that some Muslims use Islam as a justification for terrorism. To change the context slightly, both sides of the terrorist battles in Northern Ireland used Christianity as justification for their actions, but that doesn't indict Christianity as being the cause of the war. It was merely the handy excuse claimed by people who wanted to rebel and destroy the current state of society. If it hadn't been Christianity, they'd have latched onto something else. The same goes for Muslim terrorists..their religion is simply an excuse.

[Kraklen]

28. That's the whole basis for this argument.

"I didn't see any muslims apologize for 9-11. Did you see any muslims apologize for 9-11? No? Well, I guess that just goes to show you."

:eyes:

[Xithras]

33. It's a basis made on an incorrect assumption.

Most Westerners have no idea that Islam doesn't have any leadership, so many honestly don't understand why Islam's "leaders" don't criticize terrorism more forcefully. I've heard this argument from countless people over the years, and when I've explained to them that Islam really doesn't recognize anyone with more authority than an imam...and that an imam is typically just a well-read muslim who leads prayers...the response is usually an "Oh, I didn't know that".

There are a lot of people who actually, honestly, want to see a bishop of the Muslim church come out on national television and start criticizing these terrorists. They have no idea that such a person doesn't exist (unless you're Shiite, and there are relatively few Shiite in the west).

[Kraklen]

36. The same applies with homosexuality and child molestation.

Many Americans have no idea that homosexuals don't molest children. But ignorance is no excuse for bigotry, just the cause.

There aren't a lot of people who actually, honestly want to see a muslim cleric come out and start criticizing terrorists. If they did, they would keep asking the question because muslim clerics have clearly done so. What they want to do is blame muslims for terrorism.

[caty]

46. Thanks Xthras--I get it.

[U4ikLefty]

50. and there ARE Christians who condone violence for "abortionists"

also there are Israelis who justify the killing of Palestinians daily.

[caty]

19. Regarding post #3. I cannot believe what I just read.

Jews are no more greedy than anyone else. More women are raped by white men than black. And the largest majority of pedophiles are heterosexual. What are you doing posting such rubbish on this forum. You have to be a repug to think like that. You're either a bigot or a dinosaur.

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[caty]

27. If you are going to post something with

a sarcastic intent, clarify it. You sounded serious with no hint of sarcasm.

[Kraklen]

29. Yeah, you sounded serious too.

But I'm afraid you weren't being sarcastic.

[caty]

32. Regarding bigots.

No--I wasn't being sarcastic. I try to be tolerant of peoples views, but I just can't tolerate a bigot. Perhaps that's a fault or a weakness, but that's how I feel.

[Kraklen]

34. Then it's pretty ironic...

that your OP is essentially bigoted.

[caty]

37. Only when it comes to bigots.

[Kraklen]

41. I don't think you get it.

you asked, "how come muslim leaders haven't condemned terrorism?"

to which I replied, "same reason gay leaders haven't condemned child molestation."

to which you stated, "that's bigoted!"

Get it now?

[caty]

45. When you say the "same reason

gay leaders haven't condemned child molestation" you make it sound as if gay people are child molesters. I asked why muslim leaders haven't condemned terrorism because the terrorists say they commit these acts in the name of Islam. I'm not saying that all who are a part of Islam are terrorists. There is a difference.

[Kraklen]

47. Yeah, but then there's things like NAMBLA.

So no, there isn't really a difference.

[caty]

51. The next time you post something that

is meant to be sarcastic--make it clear that you meant it in a sarcastic way. If you post something that makes you sound like an ignorant bigot, don't get all upset if someone assumes you are.

[Kraklen]

52. I'm not being sarcastic..

I'm pointing out the flaws in your argument.

Asking why muslims don't condemn terrorism is every bit as bigoted as asking why homosexuals don't condemn child molestation.

[caty]

53. Read my first post again.

I didn't have an argument. I asked two simple questions.

The difference is that pedophiles don't molest children in the name of homosexuality. The terrorists commit crimes in the name of Islam. I was asking why I don't hear more commendation from the leaders of Islam. After reading the other posts, I now know that there are not really any leaders and that when Muslims speak out against terrorism, it is not reported on the news. My two questions have been answered.

[ohiosmith]

5. Here

When the Prophet Muhammed, May Peace Be Upon Him, died in 632 A.D., there were two groups. One group believed that he was dead and that his teachings should be studied and followed. They became the Sunni Muslims. The Sunnis do not believe in a religious ruler. They follow secular political rulers.

The other group believed that the descendants of Muhammed had inherited his spiritual authority and his right to rule over the Kingdom of Islam. They became the Shiites.

[Endangered Specie]

8. As far as Muslims are concered, the only top leader is Allah.

No one else is allowed to act as a middleman really.

[reBel_gyrl]

10. Or..

from ANY Islamics? I have yet to see any significant (I personally have yet to see ONE, but I figure I may have missed it) number of Islamic people critisize these actions that are carried out in their name. Where is there outrage, where is there sorrow? Is it somehow "forbidden" to publicly denounce other members of their nation, even in the face of all this?
Do we have any Islamics in the DU, maybe they could teach us some things? I know I have some questions...

[Bridget Burke]

17. There is no such word as "Islamics"

Followers of Islam are Muslims.

If you are looking for knowledge, there are "books" & "the internet."

Many Islamic (note, this is an adjective) leaders have spoken out against the violence. Try learning for yourself.

[CJCRANE]

24. I live in the UK

and nearly every TV news interview has muslims denouncing the attacks.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

31. reBel_gyrl

Plenty of Muslims have condemned the terrorist bombings. I have heard them. They have spoken out at meetings, in ecumenical councils, but the problem is that the media doesn't see these pronouncements as "news", and they are ignored.

[CJCRANE]

39. Muslim Council of Great Britain statement:

http://www.mcb.org.uk/home.php

Their spokesman, Iqbal Sacranie has been on most of the UK TV & Radio news shows.

on edit: added UK. Also, as I'm a news junkie when things happen, I've watched a lot of news shows.

[reBel_gyrl]

48. Thank you CJCRANE.

Well good for them, I am glad they are with us in speaking out against those a-holes. Not that I thought they wouldn't be, it's just not on my news channels.

[foo_bar]

44. it just seems that way, because (on-topic!) Islam doesn't have one leader

And imams don't make national news unless they say something provocative, or bear some sort of hook appendage. It's not because the media hates Muslims (besides the New Republic), the media loves hate. It sells.

[reBel_gyrl]

49. Hmmm, to bad our media doesn't realize that

these statements could help united us. At least a little. Maybe if more Americans could see Muslims shoulder to shoulder with Christians and what-have-you then people would be more tolerant and less likely to jump to snap conclusions and predjudices.

[atreides1]

12. Their is no church hierarchy in Islam

In Islam there is no church hierarchy no priests, no ministers, vicars, deans, or popes. When a Muslim prays, he prays directly to God not through any intermediary. When he serves God, he is not serving an institution but God alone. Every human being is individually responsible for their own actions and their own beliefs.
No one can take that responsibility away from you.

If you think that anyone is ordering you to act against what you sincerely believe to be the will of God, you are duty bound to disobey that order, and instead obey Allah.

This is the principle that Allah is the sovereign and follows directly from the Shahada, which is the the testifying that makes one into a Muslim - namely:

There is no God except Allah and Muhammad is a messenger of Allah.

There are no sects in Islam, only different interpretations.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

35. beautiful post

and very accurate. Obey and love only the Beloved.

[geek tragedy]

22. Not amongst the Sunnis, though the Shiites are more prone to

hierarchical structures--as evidenced by Supreme Ayatollahs, etc etc.

[reBel_gyrl]

23. OOPS!

DUH. I meant Muslims, not "Islamics." I apologize, it's been a long month. Didn't mean any offense, if any was caused.

[BurtWorm]

26. Juan Cole answers your question

http://www.juancole.com/2005/07/friedman-wrong-about-muslims-again-and.html

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

30. Islam is not structured like the Catholic Church

There is no one leader. Even in Sufism, where there is a hierarchy, it is splintered, as each order has its head, and one can be an initiate in more than one order. (Imagine being able to be a Methodist, a Catholic, and a Greek Orthodox at the same time) But although these heads are respected spiritually, the real connection is between a student and his/her teacher. Individual responsibility is stressed, without the use of intermediaries.

As for leaders speaking out-this has been an ongoing process. Of course, the media tends to ignore such statements and ecumenical conferences where tolerance and understanding are stressed.

[Lefty48197]

38. I've heard that Muslims are not allowed to criticize other Muslims

I don't know if it's true or not, but I've heard that a couple of times.

[Bridget Burke]

40. Where did you hear this?

And why are you repeating it if you don't know whether it's true?

[Kraklen]

42. Yes, where'd you hear it?

The 700 Club?

[CJCRANE]

43. It's got pretty much the same moral laws

as Judaism and Christianity, i.e. you shouldn't insult people, slander them, call them bad names etc. That's not the same as criticism.

It's not a secret society like the Masons or Skull & Bones where you have to stick up for other members no matter what.

[Garfield Goose]

54. All organizations have leadership

Some are centralized, some decentralized. Some are effective, some ineffective, but, all organizations have leadership. And, a primary role of leadership is to be a mouthpiece for the mission statement of the organization.

[Karenina]

55. Caty, if you are 20 or under

I will forgive your OP and chalk up the offense you give to youth and ignorance...

[Technowitch]

56. Locking

Asked and answered. The ongoing discussion then became a flame-fest.

-Technowitch
DU Moderator