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Solomon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-25-03 11:55 PM
Original message
I'm Noticing A Great Thing Tonight!!!!
We are vedy vedy happy for a change, are we not? It feels good doesn't it. Don't you feel it.

You gotta admit that our field of candidates are looking pretty good right now.

There's a fresh breeze in the air, and we can sense things turning can't we.

After all the bickering and sniping (which I say is part of the process - after all, we're not robots like the repugs are) you can sense that we are coming together and that we will come together for the big show.

Damn it feels good. I'm starting to feel very good about our field of candidates. After the stench of Bush, the sincerity of our candidates is impressive.

Gonna be a lotta love soon here at DU.

:party: :grouphug:
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OrdinaryTa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-26-03 12:02 AM
Response to Original message
1. Republicans Are In Trouble
Democrats are bright, optimistic and confident. Most importantly, Democratic candidates have learned to differentiate themselves from each other without mutual self-destruction. These debates are robust, hearty and intelligent, showing Americans that openness is indeed possible.

Bush has worn out his welcome with large numbers of Americans. People haven't forgotten that all this trouble started when Bush took office. Back in the day, people had jobs and America was at peace. Now there's nothing but gloom and doom.

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Blue_State_Elitist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-26-03 12:05 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. This post would be better
if it had the A team theme song in the background.
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Solomon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-26-03 12:05 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. I'm even starting to think we're going to win by a landslide.
With Bev Harris making sure those black boxes don't screw us, we can't lose. Hallelujah!
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Goku Donating Member (27 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-26-03 03:22 AM
Response to Reply #3
37. DNC in 04???
now that IS delusional!
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newyawker99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-26-03 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #37
84. n/t
Edited on Fri Sep-26-03 10:58 AM by newyawker99
xx
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Kakarot Donating Member (3 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-26-03 12:22 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. No Clinton boom
keep in mind that most americans according to a recent poll, do not know who is running on the DNC ticket. Plus, using the Commerce Department's revised numbers, that the economic books of the country were cooked in 1999 and 2000. Clinton-Gore lied about how much profit the government took in by almost one third so they could help Gore hold the White House. The Washington Times reports that Clinton-Gore claimed the economic growth rate on Election Day 2000 was 4.4%, but revised numbers show it to have been less than 2.7% - and it fell to an abysmal 1.1% during the fourth quarter – when the Democrats were screaming at Bush for talking about an economic slowdown.
These numbers will keep being revised to subtract Enron, WorldCom, Tyco, Adelphia, Global Crossing, etc., because those companies inflated profits in the last two years of Clinton-Gore. Now, if you tell the IRS you underestimate your income by 30%, and therefore you underpaid your taxes by 30%, you can't get away with saying, "Whoops." We shouldn't let Clinton-Gore off the hook so easily either. They lied and overstated all their economic numbers. There was no Clinton boom, and whether they knew about the inflated numbers then or not, they know now, so it's time to stop perpetuating the lie.

The best job i've ever had and still have was obtained AFTER George W Bush was elected. I am voting for Bush. But will someone please tell me how the President of the United States is responsable for jobs in the private sector?
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eileen_d Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-26-03 12:24 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. You forgot to mention
Clinton's penis.
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Jim Sagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-26-03 12:34 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. He didn't want to over-stimulate himself.
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Goku Donating Member (27 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-26-03 03:23 AM
Response to Reply #8
38. quick question
Are you now, or have you ever been a member of the Communist Party?
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Cocoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-26-03 12:32 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. the people were there
It doesn't matter if you come out with a book saying there was no boom. The people were there, they lived through it, they saw it with their own eyes.

They also saw Reagan-Bush before Clinton, and Bush Jr. after Clinton.

But good luck anyway.
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The Blue Flower Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-26-03 12:39 AM
Response to Reply #4
9. Quick lesson
An economy consists of many things, but the bottom line is people and their perceptions. An endless war, a bottomless deficit, the destruction of our judicial foundations, institutionalized crime at the highest levels of business and government, the loss of global alliances, a sense that there's an evil primate puppet at the helm of state all tend to leave people with the feeling that the future is, at best, chaos. This tends to create a contraction--as in a sudden cramping of the gut--rather than an expansion of the sort of activities that generate jobs.
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Kakarot Donating Member (3 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-26-03 01:51 AM
Response to Reply #9
21. perspective..
Well, i see night after night of hotels booked to capacity in Las Vegas, that means people are traveling and spending money. I see people buying homes and cars, all good signs that things are getting back on track. Granted I live in a Conservative state where the taxes are low and the ecconomy is bouncing back. people here feel good about the state's and the nation's ecconomy. Now take a hard look at more liberal states like CA,NY,VT,HI,WA and OR. What do we have? High taxes and big governments. If a company can leave a high tax state like CA to go to a low tax state like NV or AZ they will and they are. this is why people are getting laid off, their own states have built a tax structure that forces business's to leave. the liberal experiment has failed. why do you think people are looking to can Davis?
Look at Canada, a very liberal nation. they pull taxes from everyone's check on a provincial and federal level. then all purchases are followed with a provincial and federal tax. they get hit four times at a higher rate than the US! it boils down to 87 cents of every dollar earned being taxed and the socialized "services" are substandard at best. Imagine that you are going to have surgery tomorrow, and you get a call saying that they need to reschedual, seems the doctors or nurses are on strike.

Liberals took over in one respect or another in the mid 60's and we saw drug use rise, poverty rise, illagitamcy rates rise, violent crimes went up, street gangs grew to numbers never before seen. Taxes went up too. In the 1950s my Grandfather earned 90 dollars a month and he owned a home, bought a new car every 2 to 3 years and took his family on weekend getaways in the mountians. health care was afordable,no one needed Health Insurance or a Nanny State. then big liberal government stepped in and ruined everything. now you need to be earning over $2000 a month to get by. so please explane your selves. don't even bother mentioning inflation, the dollar just isn't worth what it was when we left the gold standard. the cost of getting coffee from the bean to your cup hasn't gone up, the dollar just isn't worth what it once was. so please tell me why we need liberals...
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FlemingsGhost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-26-03 02:19 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. I'm guessing you won't be around for very much longer...
Edited on Fri Sep-26-03 02:24 AM by DemsUnite
so I'll be brief.

It's slipping away, Kakarot, and you know it. The "New American Century" is going to fall about 96 years short. Just like in '94, the GOP has tried for too much, too soon. That's one thing we can rely on from you folks: Greed.

Why do we need liberals? To clean up after folks like you....

(on edit: typo)
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ClintonTyree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-26-03 02:31 AM
Response to Reply #21
23. We need Liberals..............
to counteract the mindless drones from the right. We need Liberals to fix everything you conservatives fuck up. We need Liberals to ensure that every American has a fighting chance of obtaining the "American Dream", what ever that may be.
You consider full hotels in Las Vegas as a sign of a booming economy. I consider it a desperate attempt for "that one big score" that will get that person out of their monitary misery. How much of that money spent in Las Vegas is on credit cards? Much like the Bush administration, I'm willing to bet a great majority of it. People go to Las Vegas to escape the reality of their shitty lives and for a false promise that they can WIN BIG and achieve financial freedom. Basing economic recovery on the number of people visiting Las Vegas is the idiotic dedection I've ever heard. Thanks for dropping by, now get back to the tables and "beat the house", "hit it big", "break the bank". Gamblers are most often desperate people.
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Goku Donating Member (27 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-26-03 03:00 AM
Response to Reply #23
29. McCarthy was RIGHT
lets see, we as a nation were just fine until the mid 60's then liberals came and "fixed" all the "bad" stuff the right did and oops... Nanny State... nothing good comes from a nanny state.

McCarthy was right...
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chopper Donating Member (345 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-26-03 07:59 AM
Response to Reply #29
82. brilliant logic there, mittens
McCarthy was right...

ah, i see we're off to a good start...

lets see, we as a nation were just fine until the mid 60's then liberals came and "fixed" all the "bad" stuff

ah yes, the 'bad' stuff, like, you know, Jim Crow? how awful that we did such a thing. i know what you're saying, if we would've just voted for Thurmond, we wouldn't have these problems!

BTW, the cleaners called, they say your white sheet is ready.
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calimary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-26-03 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #82
91. Who let Ann Coulter in here?
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chadm Donating Member (480 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-26-03 11:12 AM
Response to Reply #29
90. Nothing good comes from a nanny state
Right, nothing good like subsidized education, healthcare for the elderly, unemployment insurance in case you get canned, roads, I follow. I guess the really good stuff is destruction and misery, right?
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leesa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-26-03 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #21
94. What fantasyland do you live in?
People aren't looking to can Davis...a handful of rabid, rich Republicans are looking to can Davis on trumped up charges. Wilson drafted the deregulation legislation and Bush, Cheney and Ken Lay oversaw the pillaging of the state via the energy scam. You are a foolish person who does not understand the cause and effect in this country. Every time Republicans are in office they severely damage the infrastructure of this country in their never-ending quest to enrich the rich. The Dem following them has to repair their damage. Open your eyes and see what these upper class rich folk are doing to everyone else in the country. If your eyes open, you might notice that the economy is on the edge of extinction. The rich coporatists, who are virtually all Republicans, have shipped all the jobs overseas so they can maximize their profits. We no longer produce anything. Now, thanks to your demented Fuhrer, we have no friends in the world and our economy will die because they will no longer trade with us.

You don't know what you are talking about. You are simply parroting Republican nonsense. Look at the facts and figures.
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West Coast Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-26-03 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #21
104. I live in Oregon, it's not exactly a "liberal" state
We've had Democratic governors for years, but our legislature has long been controlled by Republicans. Sure, the income taxes are high here. That's because corporations pay close to nothing in taxes.

I wish there were more liberals in Oregon, but alas...mostly we live only in the larger towns, while the rural areas remain extremely conservative.
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fob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-26-03 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #21
111. Please provide proof for your statements
Define "High taxes and big governments"
My research shows State tax rates for 2002 range from 0%(NV, WA)to a high of 12%(Iowa). The states you quote as liberal with "high taxes" run the gamut, some on the higher end, some lower and there are "conservative" states with higher and lower rates than these "liberal" states. As for "big gov't", California is the 5th to 7th largest economy in the world, has 38 million citizens and has a huge state budget, Hawaii has a siginificantly smaller population and state budget, Arizona has about 1/10th the state budget of California but nearly 3 times that of Hawaii. So again, define your terms or drop your spin.

Provide links and proof of your claims regarding Canada, including but not limited to how you determined Canada to be a "very liberal nation".

Provide studies for your claims regarding the 60's.

As for $90 in the 50's versus today and the gold standard, please take several economics classes then report back.

When you've completed these tasks above, I think you'll be able to answer your last question for yourself.

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Ouabache Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-26-03 12:40 AM
Response to Reply #4
10. Since you have a job and $$ go see a shrink
because you are delusional.
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Solomon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-26-03 12:46 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. Spoken like a true republican. He's got what He wants. The hell
Edited on Fri Sep-26-03 12:48 AM by Solomon
with everybody else. And mods, please give me a break on this one. He did identify himself as a Bush supporter so I should be allowed to say this. You see. They're running scared. Vedy vedy scared right now.

:smoke:
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Goku Donating Member (27 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-26-03 02:56 AM
Response to Reply #11
27. NO FEAR
no fear here, buddy. the right will save us from the radical leftists.. you people are worse that Al-Qeada
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chopper Donating Member (345 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-26-03 08:12 AM
Response to Reply #27
83. aw, c'mon, Shirley
stop being such a drama queen.

i know that the freepers send a troll over here every friday, and i guess you were the one that drew the short straw. must suck to actually have to try to defend your president's "Big Deal" plan (aka "Big Deal, I'm Rich!") in front of people who don't march in lockstep with your ideas.

boo fucking hoo. waah, i hate liberals. waah, i hate 'tax and spend', although 'don't tax and spend even more' makes perfect sense to me. waah, Mildred, i think our new neighbors are 'ethnic'. waah, i hate judges ramming idealogies down our throats, that is, unless it's Scalia, that guy rules. waah, Clinton lied about a blowjob, but Bush lied about a war, and that's okay.

talk about a broken record.
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chadm Donating Member (480 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-26-03 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #27
86. Finally this place is getting interesting
We need more diversity of thought...or, rather, opinion.
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Goku Donating Member (27 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-26-03 03:03 AM
Response to Reply #10
31. yeah, i have a job
atleast i have a job.. don't worry, the welfare check should be in soon.
but i can't be delusional, i'm not a liberal.

low taxes, self reliance and little to no government interfearence is bad, how????
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thebigidea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-26-03 03:32 AM
Response to Reply #31
42. snicker
"low taxes, self reliance and little to no government interfearence is bad, how????"

Dick Cheney, John Ashcroft, Richard Perle, Paul Wolfowitz, Donald Rumsfeld, Georgie Peorgie are good, how?
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Goku Donating Member (27 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-26-03 03:43 AM
Response to Reply #42
49. nope
you DON'T answer a question with a question.

you ANSWER IT then you can ask a question.
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thebigidea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-26-03 03:44 AM
Response to Reply #49
51. ah, you define the rules after pissing on the gameboard
interesting strategy.

Next time, we try Pictionary.

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Goku Donating Member (27 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-26-03 03:49 AM
Response to Reply #51
56. NEA
hey pal, you might think that's art, but bodily fliuds, to me are not art. you should contact the NEA they are into to piss...

came here looking for debate, got personal attacks. and bad art.and no answers, typical liberal responces.
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thebigidea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-26-03 03:52 AM
Response to Reply #56
60. the NEA returns my sealed jars of urine for some reason
They say they're not into that kind of thing any more, and its not the same as donating sperm.

"came here looking for debate, got personal attacks."

Oh, you came in looking for an argument. This is abuse. Two doors down, dear.
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einsteins stein Donating Member (398 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-26-03 05:13 AM
Response to Reply #56
77. I doubt you came here for debate, BUT...
you mentioned Nevada as your conservative wonderland. Well, the Bureau of Labor Statistics agrees that Nevada had a net gain in jobs since Bush took office. So smile!

Wait for it..

Unfortunately, the jobs haven't kept up with the popullation, because Nevada has added over 15,000 workers to the unemployment list, just since Bush took office. Texas, the great center of conservativism, added 320,000 folks to the line (unemployment line, that is), and the unemployment rates and raw numbers have increased in 47 states since Bush took office.

Yeah, your guys really fixed things up for the whole country. You convinced me!

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rppper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-26-03 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #56
99. roves hand must be inserted into your posterior to......
Edited on Fri Sep-26-03 12:02 PM by rppper
...as he seems to be making your jaws flap a'la your boy king. typical right wing responces. lets review your brief time here on this thread...starting with your last little whimper.....

"came here looking for debate, got personal attacks. and bad art.and no answers, typical liberal responces."

me thinks you are a liar sir...the following examples of right wing logic and debate...from your lips...as typed...and retorts as they apply...

1)"Are you now, or have you ever been a member of the Communist Party?"

no, but i did swap a pack of malboros for two packs of chech cigs from some aeroflot pilots while i was in greenland once. i was serving in the navy, flying home with my boats crew from scotland. btw, did you serve?

2)"lets see, we as a nation were just fine until the mid 60's then liberals came and "fixed" all the "bad" stuff the right did and oops... Nanny State... nothing good comes from a nanny state."

well, nixon had a chance...2 terms i believe...to fix it. what happened there?

3)"McCarthy was right..."

....right winger fascist....this is a man who wanted to peek in on the private lives of private citizens...the crust of what you neo-cons say is your agenda...remember, less government interference....you're a hypocrite sir...

4)"no fear here, buddy. the right will save us from the radical leftists.. you people are worse that Al-Qeada"

by what method...zyclon4, firing squads, torture chambers? very american and oh so patriotic of you...did i mention christian as well...

5)"hey pal, you might think that's art, but bodily fliuds, to me are not art. you should contact the NEA they are into to piss..."

seems like your president slavery fetish, you have a few fetishes of your own....

6)"atleast i have a job.. don't worry, the welfare check should be in soon."

handjobs don't count...and your job could be outsourced due to your presidents policies...that check may have your name on it soon..

7)"but i can't be delusional, i'm not a liberal."

thats like saying "i can't be a baby raping pervert or a man who blows through stop signs and kills motorcyclists because i am a rabid neo-con" now back to your limbaugh/hannity/savage derived quality right wing family festival.....

wahhhhhh....those mean ol' libruls were-a-pikin on me. you must have taken to many thorazines this morning. it is obvious you are only here to disrupt, probably led here by limbaughs show i suspect. wipe the drool from your lips, enter a good detox and come see us when your prozac kicks in.

the tombstone awaits you friend.....

go back to free republic for your answers,
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paulk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-26-03 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #31
96. you have a job?
I hope the description doesn't require anything like debating skills.
Generalized (and stereotyped)ad hominum attacks usually won't get you very far if you're actually trying to convince someone to your point of view.

ps - I have a job, too. Isn't that nice?
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prolesunited Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-26-03 12:51 AM
Response to Reply #4
13. Hey!
At least he can spell. :thumbsup:

That's definitely a cut above most of the ones they send over. Maybe he's a professional? :shrug:
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calimary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-26-03 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #13
92. Uh, actually, he can't spell.
Edited on Fri Sep-26-03 11:22 AM by calimary
Check the word "economy" in post 21. It has ONE "c." Not two.

Next?

on edit - doublechecked post #.
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thebigidea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-26-03 12:56 AM
Response to Reply #4
15. well, naturally
"The best job i've ever had and still have was obtained AFTER George W Bush was elected. I am voting for Bush. But will someone please tell me how the President of the United States is responsable for jobs in the private sector?"

well, naturally. Being paid to sit around and spew propaganda on websites is probably better than your old telemarketing gig. Man, that was depressing! And then the whole "selling knives door to door" bit. But this - man, being on Team Dubya Dipshit Defense Force... that's a job!

And of course the President isn't responsible for anything. He's such a good leader, SOOOO decisive, soooooo incisive - he doesn't actually do anything but stand as a beacon for... uh, for FREEDOM. For failure, for freedom to fail, for freedom to fail on a bigger stage each time. For spectacular, incredibly poorly-planned failure.

Go Bush!



and the puppetmaster that pulls his strings! call out the creeps from behind their curtains, cull cheney from the herd. Kid Halliburton is lookin' awfully vulnerable lately. Snarl snarl snarl!

love and kisses,
me
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Goku Donating Member (27 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-26-03 02:58 AM
Response to Reply #15
28. touchy touchy
why so upset? the Welfare check not in yet.. give it a few more days, ok.. Tuesday is the end of the month
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thebigidea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-26-03 03:28 AM
Response to Reply #28
40. welfare comedy is the ONLY sort of comedy
the comedy stylings of Rush Limbaugh, ladies and gentlemen. Coming up next: Topo Gigo.

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Goku Donating Member (27 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-26-03 03:36 AM
Response to Reply #40
44. hey, i know
maybe it's the unemployment check that is a little late in the mail, or perhaps you need your meds.

hey, i know! mail your check books to the nearest democrat and just tell them to take what they need and to send back the rest.

ooh! i know, ask them to define "RICH" in monitary terms. then ask them what they are making before taxes, since most, like Huffington, don't pay taxes.
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thebigidea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-26-03 03:39 AM
Response to Reply #44
46. did you bring your own laugh track?
yes, its a laugh-a-minute romp as Jeff Christie teams up with Don Knotts for BIG LAFFS in "The Conservative Kook and Mister Chicken" - coming up next: more welfare jokes from "The Golden Treasury of Dated, Damn-Near Useless Humor"...
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-26-03 04:11 AM
Response to Reply #46
69. The gender of this poster is "undeclared"..so.."Hi Jeff"
:evilgrin:
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FlemingsGhost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-26-03 01:01 AM
Response to Reply #4
17. It's true!
Edited on Fri Sep-26-03 01:05 AM by DemsUnite
Rush does visit DemocraticUnderground.

What can I say... even to this day, there are folks in Yugoslavia who long for the "glory days" under Milosevic.

Never underestimate the stupidity of the human spirit...

(edited for clarity)
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Goku Donating Member (27 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-26-03 03:20 AM
Response to Reply #17
36. ever wonder
have you ever wondered why you libs need the courts to force your agenda down the throats of Americans? It is because you can't get them passed at the voting booth.

ever wonder why no one complained until now about the punch cards in CA, seems that last time they were ok when it looked like Davis would win, no we know he'll lose so they just have to go because, some groups of people can't figure them out -this was all according to a lib judge and the American Communist Lawyers Union.
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thebigidea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-26-03 03:31 AM
Response to Reply #36
41. American Communist Lawyers Union!
bwhahahah!

Oh, de-lovely.

This battle of wits is at an end - Goku wins, FLAWLESS VICTORY!

You win a brand new flag.



sadly, not autographed by President Monkeyface.
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Goku Donating Member (27 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-26-03 03:40 AM
Response to Reply #41
47. winner!
and for your "art" that you probably fished of off someone else's website, you win NOTHING...

since that is what you get with Democrats. the party who's message is...........................
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thebigidea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-26-03 03:43 AM
Response to Reply #47
48. your charm is infectious
"and for your "art" that you probably fished of off someone else's website, you win NOTHING..."

I use neither imitation frogs nor fish, sir!

But please, my ego would appreciate the art critique:
http://www.terminalproduct.com/flagsuck.html

give me something quotable, dearie.
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Goku Donating Member (27 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-26-03 03:45 AM
Response to Reply #48
52. art
you got it already.. NOTHING.. same thing you get with a dem in office...
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thebigidea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-26-03 03:47 AM
Response to Reply #52
54. oh, c'mon... you can do better than that
mention welfare some more. Talk about me hating America and despising freedom.

Jesus, can't you read your script? We're on the blue rewrites. Page 16. Near the bottom. Pick it up from there, and this time - try and sound like you MEAN it.
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Goku Donating Member (27 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-26-03 03:57 AM
Response to Reply #54
62. you got it buddy
I see America for the fruited planes

libs see an America of the Dust Bowl, soup kitchens, and people selling apples on the corner.
you guys are an odd bunch. you are all for free speach, so long as the person speaking goes along with your manifesto but as soon as some says 1. End Affirmative Action.
2. Close the Borders now.
3. Deport all illegal immigrants now.
4. Eliminate bilingual education in all states.
5. Require health tests for all recent foreign born immigrants.
6. Make tax cuts permanent.
7. Reduce the number of Federal Employees.
8. Tort Reform - Stop Class Action Lawyers.

and they must be silenced?
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thebigidea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-26-03 04:00 AM
Response to Reply #62
64. you are on fire!
That's what I wanna hear outta Team Rove, that kind of discipline. I want you guys to be ON POINT at all times with JUST THE RIGHT WORDS. Get it concise, get it hammered into everybody's head.

Remember what L. Ron Hubbard said: "Never defend, always attack."

you're doing good. Got a little bogged down for a minute, but you're workin' in the talking points like a champ. Now close with questioning someone's patriotism, and you might get that gold watch come 4th Quarter.
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chadm Donating Member (480 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-26-03 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #62
87. Sorry if you feel silenced
Your opinions are real to you, and therefore deserve respect. How have you been silenced in the past?
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Solomon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-26-03 06:20 AM
Response to Reply #36
78. Ever wonder why the Inferior Court forced Bush down our throats?
Because he didn't fucking win the election.
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OrdinaryTa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-26-03 01:05 AM
Response to Reply #4
18. Bush Enjoyed a Long Honeymoon
Bush coasted his first two years, getting totally undeserved high approval ratings. His approval ratings are finally coming down to reflect his dismal performance. We're on the verge of economic collapse because of his policies! Wars all over the world, no jobs, tax giveaways to the wealthy, and huge increases in military expenditures.

Ugh! Get him out of here before he ruins us!!
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oasis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-26-03 03:59 AM
Response to Reply #4
63. The "Washington Times" reports?? And thus spake the Rev. Sun Moon.
:eyes:
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LuminousX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-26-03 11:03 AM
Response to Reply #63
85. Agenda
You aren't implying that the Bush's true spiritual leader, the Korean guy who thinks he is Christ, has an agenda to keep his Bush friends in the White House, are you? That'd be wrong.
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Bandit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-26-03 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #4
88. Ahhh ~ Ba Bye
Don't let the door hit you on the way out. You guys just can't help yourselves. You lie about everything.
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alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-26-03 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #4
103. A survey of one does not mean the 3 Million who have lost
their jobs do not matter. Anyway, do you think Bush is telling the truth about our economy?

the downturn in 2000 was in one sector, technology. The downturn didn't start hitting other sectors until the 'energy crisis' which quickly ended when Jeffords put the Dems in control of the Senate.

Your opinions are welcomed. If you keep the discourse civil, you will be heard. Because you are a Bush supporter, you best have a thick skin. Don't take it personal if you get banned.

If you get a chance, talk to some veterans, especially disabled veterans before you cast your vote for Bush.
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fob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-26-03 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #4
107. If the President is NOT responsible for jobs in the private
sector, why were bush*s tax cuts sold as a "job creation program"?

Of course the President is responsible for private sector jobs.

Besides Herbert Hoover, name the only other President to have a net job LOSS over his term.

DING! Times up! The answer is george w bush*! I will grant that he has some time left in his term to turn it around, but with his adherence to his voodoo economics on steroids, I fully expect him to take the title.


Please provide links for your GDP claims and your proof of lying by Clinton-Gore.

Also, you say you got your best job after gw bush* was elected. Since he was installed by judicial coup, you must be referring to his election as governor of texas, which if you recall was while the Clinton Boom was in full swing. So on behalf of The Honorable William Jefferson Clinton, I accept your thanks for a job well done.

Please list your job(s) held since 1988, so we may examine your credibility. Provide verifiable Company names, addresses, phone numbers, supervisors names and any other info necessary for we DUers to confirm your claim. Be sure to bbokmark this thread and check back later, IF your claim is true, I will cede the point here for all to acknowledge.

fob

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calimary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-26-03 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #1
89. My reaction last night: Man, we've got BENCH STRENGTH!!
The repukes have all their marbles in one bin with Dumbo.

Besides, they were making some damned strong points last night - about Halliburton and corporate malfeasance and Enron and other things. I actually found myself pumping the air and woofing about four times.

From what I saw, ANY of 'em would be an improvement. A VAST improvement. Well, except for Lieberman. But I can easily see myself getting behind WHOEVER it is. While I'm still a Deanie, I thought everybody made an incredibly respectable showing. MANY good points, all around. MANY good points. And superficially, MANY good turns-of-phrase. MANY opportunities to prove, and prove again, that they think on their feet, they make extremely valid points, and they can bring those points in on time.

It made me proud to be a Democrat!
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frank frankly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-26-03 12:33 AM
Response to Original message
7. I feel it, too, Solomon
well said
well said
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Merlin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-26-03 12:47 AM
Response to Original message
12. The difference between now and 2 months ago is unimaginable!
It's great to be able to read the papers again and look forward to the idea that people are, at long last, beginning to understand what we've known about all along.

Kind of brings tears of gratitude to my eyes!

:grouphug:

But it's WAYYYYYY too soon to celebrate. We've got lots of work to do. The stake has not yet been driven through the monster's heart.
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frank frankly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-26-03 12:53 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. no, it is far from over
But this week I have started hearing very underspoken people begin to question BushCo. For some reason the 87 Billion really struck a chord with some people.

It really seems like people believed BushCo and their lies. The whore media is to blame, and now that they are presenting more info, the people are getting pissed.

Ain't none of the people who disapprove of this dimwitted nazi ever gonna come back.

George
You
Are
Going
To
Jail
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Solomon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-26-03 01:13 AM
Response to Reply #14
20. You're right it's far from over. But HotDamn!! Sure is great to get a
drink of water in this desert we been traveling in. Nothing better than water when you thirsty, eh. Yeahhhh.

:beer:
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Goku Donating Member (27 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-26-03 03:13 AM
Response to Reply #14
34. intollerance
all you libs do is spew hate and intollerance. how many blacks did Clinton have in his cabinet? NONE. he started wars and bombed asprin factorys to get attention away from Monica. we killed thousands of innoccent Christian Serbs. Gave Islamic terrorist a back door to Europe, passed up a guy named Osoma Bin Ladin 3 times!! Sold our technology to Red China and oops, now some how North Korea can hit the west coast with nukes. did nothing when we were attacked by Al-Qeada at the Kohbar Towers, USS Cole and 2 US Embassys in Africa-considered US Soil!! all of these were acts of war and bubba did NOTHING. he is a traitor!


Bill
You
Are
Going
To
Jail..
You
Too
Al
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Cocoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-26-03 12:56 AM
Response to Original message
16. this whole primary campaign is wonderful
I just love C-span's coverage of the various events, whichever candidate it is.

The Steak Fry was probably the high point so far for me, all those great candidates and Iowans in the rain, plus Harkin and Clinton. :-)
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Solomon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-26-03 01:09 AM
Response to Original message
19. Hey Where Did He Go? Don't go. Come Back. Say somethying else.
Dag. Usually they stick around a while. It's kinda fun seeing the stupid things they say.
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TorchTheWitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-26-03 02:46 AM
Response to Reply #19
24. oh, i doubt it
by this time, his great job (as a bankruptcy attorney or debt collections grunt?) has probably already been outhoused... er... outsourced to some drone in India that's willing to work for a fraction of his salary without overtime pay, benefits, decent working conditions, etc. maybe he should ask his co-workers how their 401k's have been doing since the sheik... whoops... the president has been sitting on the throne... um... i mean, in office.
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Goku Donating Member (27 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-26-03 02:55 AM
Response to Reply #24
26. Gee
gee never saw that comming.. personal attacks from socialists...

what will you think of next?
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Goku Donating Member (27 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-26-03 03:32 AM
Response to Reply #24
43. India
speaking of India, where is the server for this thing.. i've noticed the times are not in the US, probably not even on Guam (for you Gov school kids, Guam is a island Territory of the US, south/south East of Japan)

Hey go ask Bubba, oops- Clinton how that whole Dot Com thing went.. better knock first, incase the trailor is rocking...

for you Socialists out their, go ask Bubba if he'll split the difference of that 100 grand per speach deal he has with you, you'll find he is more than happy to re-distribute everyone else's money, but his own. but for those of you on food stamps, he "feels your pain".
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Goku Donating Member (27 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-26-03 02:54 AM
Response to Reply #19
25. Funny thing...
Funny thing here.. a liberal can say what ever they want about who ever they want and it's ok. A Conservative points out the truth and gets banned. Yes, this is Kakarot. I do not work for the GOP or any canditate's campaign, nor am I a volunteer for said party. A perfect example of how great life was until it was ruined by liberals and you get the boot. must have hit a nerve. I know, the truth hurts sometimes.
I remember the DNC Chairman stating that no democrat would be running in the CA recall race, even Bustamante said he wouldn't run and look. Dems everywhere in that election. But that is ok with you guys, right? he isn't a liar, the DNC chairman didn't LIE did he? i'm sorry kids, but they lied to you. if the situation had been reversed you would have been all over it.

But that is just the way it is with this party. lie,murder (?) cheat, steal, cheat on the wife and it's ok, because you care so much about everything. why did socioty decline when liberals took over from the mid 60's on? Every War that involved this great nation in the 20th century was under the watch of a Democrat. It's the truth. you guys are Communisim lite.

We don't need or want a Nanny state.

BOARDERS! LANGUAGE! CULTURE!

"War is an ugly thing but not the ugliest of things; the decayed and
degraded state of moral and patriotic feelings which thinks that
nothing is worth war is much worse. A man who has nothing for which he
is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own
personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being
free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."

-- John Stuart Mill
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eileen_d Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-26-03 03:01 AM
Response to Reply #25
30. aww...
:nopity:
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Goku Donating Member (27 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-26-03 03:05 AM
Response to Reply #30
32. tisk tisk
absolutly nothing intelligent came from that liberal. so typical, and so sad..

Go read the Constitution and you'll be running to join the GOP
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FlemingsGhost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-26-03 03:06 AM
Response to Reply #25
33. This is why the GOP will lose. Take a good look, folks.
Lots and lots of words. Very little thought put into their construction.
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Goku Donating Member (27 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-26-03 03:16 AM
Response to Reply #33
35. my name is - what?
who's running again for President on the DNC ticket.. i can't recall their names. nor can anyone else...


W in 04!!
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REP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-26-03 03:26 AM
Response to Reply #25
39. Another Poster Boy for Home Skuling
Don't any of you bother to learn how to spell? "Boarders"?
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Goku Donating Member (27 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-26-03 03:38 AM
Response to Reply #39
45. can't help it
can't help it.. i went to a GOVERNMENT school


now, what was the point (other than grammar) that you were trying to make?
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REP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-26-03 03:43 AM
Response to Reply #45
50. Sigh. Grammar and Spelling are Different Things
Thanks for making my point for me.
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Goku Donating Member (27 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-26-03 03:47 AM
Response to Reply #50
53. you got it
any time

now please answer the question

since things have gotten WORSE socioty wise since the mid to late 60's when liberals began to take over, HOW ARE THINGS BETTER?????
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REP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-26-03 03:49 AM
Response to Reply #53
55. Nixon Was a Liberal?
Edited on Fri Sep-26-03 03:51 AM by REP
Ho-lee shit. *Now* you tell us.

On edit: It's "society" and your syntax is so warped, it is impossible to parse your question.
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thebigidea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-26-03 03:49 AM
Response to Reply #55
57. that Reagan guy was pretty fucking soft on communism if you ask me
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Goku Donating Member (27 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-26-03 03:51 AM
Response to Reply #57
59. but i didn't
never did ask you that...i wont either
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thebigidea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-26-03 03:56 AM
Response to Reply #59
61. because you know I'm right
Admit it, you know it too. Reagan, darling SDI Reagan... WAS SOFT ON COMMUNISM.

Once a liberal, always a liberal. He was a dirty, stinking pinko of the slimiest, sordid sort. Did you know he used to whisper softly about Stalin somewhere around his "fall down the stairs" period?

Look into your heart, Goku. You know I'm right.
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Goku Donating Member (27 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-26-03 04:07 AM
Response to Reply #61
67. Heart?
what heart? i'm a conservative... that was a joke son, a joke.

you have him mixed up with Carter a bit, here son.

Reagan did more to fight the commies than you'll ever know. just go ask Lt Col. North, a roll model for us all. -no, that wasn't a joke, son.

on a personal note, get some new pictures, i'm tired of them already.
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thebigidea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-26-03 04:10 AM
Response to Reply #67
68. DENY. DENY. DENY.
Edited on Fri Sep-26-03 04:14 AM by thebigidea
How can you defend a man who actually spoke to Gorbachev? Who gave him the time of day?

"Evil Empire" he called it. So evil that he went out and SMILED at its minions on occasion.

Soft on communism.

How many missiles did he build? How many did he USE on them?

SOFT ON COMMUNISM.

The fact that Moscow isn't smoldering rubble right now is a searing indictment on how weak Reagan truly was in the face of the communist menace.

Why is Fidel Castro still standing around, smoking those damn cigars?

Because Reagan was a weak old fool who read Marx every goddamn day. Look it up, its in that Desmond Morris biography.

The fact that you even defend Reagan makes me eye you with a newly discovered suspicion... I thought you were a patriot. Instead, I find a freakin' communist sympathizer. Gawd, what's become of the modern conservative movement? G. Gordon Liddy would never stand still for this sort of sloppiness.
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Goku Donating Member (27 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-26-03 04:30 AM
Response to Reply #68
72. mentally ill
"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" ~ Ronald Reagan

well, they say Liberalism is a mental illness, you proved it by your desire for a all out nuclear war, wich would have killed us all.

you are not very funny either.

everyone knows Castro has freinds in that big club of commies, terrorists and slave traiders, you know them as the UN. they'd really squack if we invaded Cuba.

keep in mind your boy JFK botched the Bay of Pigs Invasion.

now, i'm off to bed, SOME of us have to work in the morning
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thebigidea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-26-03 04:34 AM
Response to Reply #72
74. feh - WEAK.
"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" ~ Ronald Reagan

a REAL man woulda torn it down for him.

That's supposed to be TOUGH anti-communist talk?

"well, they say Liberalism is a mental illness, you proved it by your desire for a all out nuclear war, wich would have killed us all."

I'm not saying we're not going to get our hair mussed, but a few million casualties would've been worth it if we cleansed the world of communism. A fair trade-off.

I don't know what they're teaching Republicans these days, but it isn't the GOP I used to know.
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0rganism Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-26-03 04:52 AM
Response to Reply #74
76. By the time Reagan said that, the wall was already coming down
What a maroon!
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rppper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-26-03 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #72
100. ahhhhh...slave traders......
...i was wondering when that line of BS was going to pop up....rant on goku, rant on....
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TorchTheWitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-26-03 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #72
112. SOME
of us work at night or live in a different time zone then you.

That's ok, we know you're lost in your own little rose colored glasses world so we didn't figure you would have realized that anyway.

Hang on to that great job. You know what they say about "last one hired" after all.
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Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-26-03 06:26 AM
Response to Reply #67
79. Oliver L. North - Hero?

IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA

UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
v.
OLIVER L. NORTH, Defendant.
Criminal No. 88-0080 02 - GAG

You are instructed that the United States has admitted for purposes of this trial the following facts to be true:

1. In 1983, DCI Casey asked Secretary of Defense Weinberger if the Department of Defense ("DoD") could obtain infantry weapons that Israel had confiscated from PLO forces. Following discussions between Major General Meron of Israel and Retired Major General Richard Secord of the United States government ("USG"), Israel secretly provided several hundred tons of weapons to the DoD on a grant basis in May 1983. This was known as Operation TIPPED KETTLE. In February 1984, the CIA again asked DoD if it could obtain additional PLO weapons from Israel at little or no cost for CIA operational use. After negotiations between March 1984 and July 1984, Israel secretly provided the additional weapons to DoD in Operation TIPPED KETTLE II. The DoD then transferred the weapons to the CIA. Although CIA advised Congress that the weapons would be used for various purposes, in fact many of them were provided to the Nicaraguan Resistance as appropriated funds ran out. (The effort to funnel materiel to the Contras at a time when there were limits on the amount of funds the USG could spend to support the Resistance also found expression in 1984 in Project ELEPHANT HERD, under which the CIA was to stockpile weapons and materiel provided by DoD at the lowest possible cost under the Economy Act.) DoD assured Israel that, in exchange for the weapons, the U.S. Government would be as flexible as possible in its approach to Israeli military and economic needs, and that it would find a way to compensate Israel for its assistance within the restraints of the law and U.S. policy.

2. In late March 1984, National Security Advisor Robert C. McFarlane suggested that he pursue funding alternatives for the Resistance for use after Congressional funding ran out. McFarlane proposed putting a member of the NSC staff in touch with an Israeli official to pursue funding alternatives with the Israelis. In an "Eyes Only," Secret memo, DCI Casey agreed with McFarlane's proposal. Casey informed McFarlane that the CIA was exploring two alternative means of acquiring equipment and materiel from Israel for use by the Resistance after the funding ran out. First, the CIA was considering the acquisition from Israel of ordnance captured from the PLO. Casey advised McFarlane that in 1983 the USG had acquired some $10 million worth of weapons and ammunition in this manner from the Israelis (in Operation TIPPED KETTLE). Second, the CIA was considering procuring additional assistance from another country. Casey informed McFarlane that a foreign government official had indicated that he might be able to make some equipment and training available to the Resistance through Honduras.

3. In April 1984, McFarlane directed Howard Teicher of the NSC staff to discuss aid to the Resistance with David Kimche of the Israeli Government. McFarlane instructed Teicher to tell Kimche that the USG would not press Israel on assistance to the Resistance; that aid to the Resistance was an important matter to the USG; that the USG faced a temporary shortfall in supporting the Resistance; that the USG understood the risks involved for Israel; that Israeli aid to the Resistance should be arranged through Honduras; that the USG would furnish a point of contact; and that, although McFarlane was disappointed with Israel's reluctance to assist directly, the USG would not raise the matter further.

4. In early 1984, in a discussion with the Ambassador from Saudi Arabia, McFarlane encouraged that country to support the Resistance. A short time later, the Ambassador informed McFarlane that his government would contribute $1 million per month. The money became available during the early summer of 1984.

5. On June 25, 1984, the National Security Planning Group ("NSPG") -- including President Reagan, Vice President Bush, Secretary of State Shultz, Secretary of Defense Weinberger, DCI Casey, U.N. Ambassador Kirkpatrick, CJCS Vessey, Admiral Moreau, Counselor to the President Meese, McFarlane and Admiral Poindexter (among others) -- discussed third country funding for the Resistance. Director Casey noted that the CIA considered El Salvador, Guatemala, Honduras and one South American country as possible sources of support for the Resistance. He suggested that the USG provide Honduras and Costa Rica with increased economic assistance as an incentive for them to assist the Resistance.

6. In late summer and early fall 1984, CIA stations reported to CIA Headquarters concerning apparent offers by the Peoples Republic of China ("PRC") to provide assistance to the Resistance.

7. At a meeting in mid-July 1984 between DCI Casey, Deputy DCI John McMahon, and Deputy Secretary of State Dam, Casey indicated that those present ought to get moving on non-USG funding for the Resistance since Attorney General Smith had recently concluded that raising the funds in this manner would not be an impeachable offense, as had been suggested at the NSPG meeting on June 25, 1984.

8. In August 1984, the U.S. government learned of a meeting between Adolfo Calero and a senior military official of Taiwan to solicit support for the Resistance. The Taiwan official had emphasized the need for secrecy. Taiwan initially decided to reject the Resistance because of patently adverse diplomatic consequences. The Taiwan official did not inform Calero of this decision, but he recommended to his government that aid be provided to the Resistance through third parties so that it could not be traced to Taiwan. In July 1984, Calero had renewed his request to Taiwan, which again rejected his proposal for diplomatic reasons. U.S. Ambassadors in Honduras, Panama, Nicaragua, and Costa Rica, the Southern Command of the Armed Forces of the United States (SouthCom), CIA, the Defense Intelligence Agency ("DIA"), DoS, and the National Security Advisor were advised of this information.

9. In December 1984, LtCol North advised McFarlane of efforts to obtain aid for the Resistance from third countries, including Taiwan, the PRC and South Korea. Admiral Poindexter acknowledged receiving the information that LtCol North provided.

10. With McFarlane's approval, LtCol North had met with a senior military official of the PRC in a meeting arranged with the assistance of Dr. Gaston Sigur of the NSC. The meeting was precipitated by reports that the PRC had decided not to proceed with a Canadian-originated sale of anti-aircraft missiles to the Resistance using end-user certificates provided by Guatemala. LtCol North told the military official that Calero would agree to a diplomatic concession to the PRC if the Resistance prevailed in Nicaragua. LtCol North advised McFarlane that the meetings with the PRC official were likely to be reported in FBI channels. The FBI had been requested to make no distribution of this information except to McFarlane. LtCol North asked McFarlane to inform FBI Director William Webster that McFarlane had endorsed the contact with the Asian official and further to apprise Webster that dissemination of intelligence regarding the meeting could jeopardize the operation.

11. General John Vessey, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff ("CJCS), followed up on LtCol North's approach to the PRC military officer. The PRC agreed to provide anti-aircraft missiles to the Resistance, and Retired General Richard Secord consummated the transaction and arranged shipment through Guatemala. The CIA reported the details of this transaction to McFarlane.

12. LtCol North also advised McFarlane that General Singlaub had met with the South Korean Ambassador and a representative of Taiwan to urge them privately to support the Resistance.

13. In late December 1984, LtCol North advised McFarlane that a former European officer had reported that anti-aircraft missiles might be available in a South American country for use by the Resistance in dealing with the Soviet supplied HIND attack helicopters. Calero had discovered that, while the South American country had the missiles, they would need a European country's permission for their transfer since the missiles initially had been obtained from the European country. North furnished McFarlane with a memorandum to the President recommending that the President raise the anti-aircraft missile issue with a senior European government official. The memorandum recommended that the President offer a quiet expression of USG thanks, since the European official might not be fully aware of the constraints Congress had imposed upon CIA and DoD with respect to the Resistance. In late January 1985, LtCol North recommended to McFarlane that NSC official Lyle Cox hand-carry a secure, "Eyes Only" letter to another senior European government official regarding the anti aircraft missile matter.

14. In early January 1985, CIA Headquarters requested that U.S. officials attempt to determine why the South American country had canceled the sale or donation of anti-aircraft missiles to the Resistance.

15. In February 1985, General Singlaub met with South Korean officials and discussed the possible provision of a substantial sum of money for weapons to the Resistance from South Korea. General Singlaub also discussed this possible military aid with a senior CIA official. General Singlaub also discussed with a senior South Korean official the interdiction of a shipload of arms to the Sandinistas. In that regard, General Singlaub told the senior South Korean official that the CIA and General Stilwell of DoD knew he was meeting with the senior South Korean official.

16. In early 1985, President Reagan urged the Head of State of Saudi Arabia to continue its support for the Resistance. Saudi Arabia subsequently made a contribution of more than $25 million.

17. In early February 1985, LtCol North advised McFarlane that, as a consequence of Singlaub's recent trip, both the Taiwanese and the South Koreans had indicated to U.S. officials that they would help the Resistance. Clair George, CIA Deputy Director of Operations ("DDO"), withheld dissemination of the offers and contacted LtCol North privately to ensure that they would not become common knowledge. LtCol North sought and received McFarlane's permission to have Singlaub approach officials of the Embassies of Taiwan and South Korea to urge them to proceed with their offers. Singlaub would then put Calero in direct contact with the officials.

18. In mid-March 1985, at a meeting with DCI Casey and Deputy DCI John McMahon, Secretary of Defense Weinberger stated that he had heard that the Ambassador of Saudi Arabia had earmarked $25 million for the Contras in $5 million increments.

19. At a meeting in late March 1985 with McFarlane and Deputy DCI McMahon, DCI Casey expressed his concern that the Administration would request authorization from Congress only for non-lethal aid to the Resistance and rely on third countries to supply weapons or funds for weapons. McFarlane stated that he would take the issue to President Reagan for his decision.

20. In mid-April 1985, LtCol North advised McFarlane that the Resistance had received a total of $24.5 million since appropriated funds had run out, of which more than $17 million had gone for arms, munitions, combat operations, and combat support activities. (This money consisted primarily of the Saudi contribution of which McFarlane was aware.) Future operations included increasing the Resistance force, launching a special operations attack against Sandino Airport to destroy Soviet supplied HIND attack helicopters, launching an operation against a Nicaraguan mines complex and opening a Southern Front along the Costa Rica-Nicaragua border. LtCol North informed McFarlane that the funds remaining were insufficient to support these operations and recommended that efforts be made to seek an additional $15 million to $20 million from current donors.

21. In early May 1985, LtCol North provided McFarlane and CJCS General Vessey with an analysis of Resistance expenditures and outlays for, among other things, weapons and other ordnance, and a summary of Resistance military operations since October 1984. LtCol North recommended that the current donors to the Resistance be approached to provide the remainder of their $25 million pledge and an additional $15 million to $20 million between May 1 and June 1, 1985. McFarlane approved LtCol North's recommendation that the current donors be approached to provide the remainder of their pledge, but McFarlane turned down the recommendation that the donors be asked to provide an additional $15 million to 20 million.

22. In early August 1985, the White House and various CIA stations learned of reports that, during the visit of David Kimche to the U.S. in May 1985, he had met with Michael Armacost, the U.S. Undersecretary for Political Affairs, and had negotiated the continuation of military aid from Israel to Central America.

23. In August 1985, Gaston Sigur approached a senior intelligence officer of South Korea to meet with LtCol North to discuss Central America and the Resistance.

24. In October 1985, the President of an Asian country was approached and advised that other concerned private and foreign sources had been supporting the Resistance with munitions and combat supplies, and that their identities had not been revealed. The Resistance had a specific need for communications equipment, and the Asian country produced some of the best in the world.

25. In November 1985, LtCol North asked Vince Cannistraro of the NSC to contact a senior South American government official to encourage the sale by that country of planes and spare parts to A.C.E., a company that was providing private support to the Resistance.

26. In early December 1985, the U.S. became aware that a South American country had offered to sell combat materiel/equipment to the Resistance. A U.S. Chief of Mission requested that the developments be brought to the attention of Elliott Abrams, Assistant Secretary of State for Latin American Affairs. Abrams discussed those offers with LtCol North and other USG officials.

27. In early December 198S, a CIA officer requested that Headquarters provide the number of anti-aircraft missiles in the Resistance inventory. The CIA officer no longer had their original reporting, but recalled that the Resistance had purchased five launchers and ten missiles from the PRC.

28. In early March 1986, Retired General Secord notified LtCol North that the purchase of anti-aircraft missiles from a South American country had stalled because it wanted approval from a European country before any transfer. The arms dealer attempting to arrange the transfer had asked that a U.S. government official contact the South American government to emphasize the interest in a quick transfer of the missiles.

29. In early May 1986, LtCol North notified Admiral Poindexter that a representative of Israeli Defense Minister Rabin had offered on behalf of Israel to furnish Spanish-speaking military trainers and advisors to the Resistance. Advisors would be placed in Hondu in connection with an Israeli plan to sell the Kfir fighter to the Hondurans. Other advisors would be placed on the southern Front. LtCol North advised Admiral Poindexter that Defense Minister Rabin wanted to meet with him privately in New York to discuss the details, and that Assistant Secretary of State Elliott Abrams liked the idea.

30. In early May 1986, McFarlane noted that the U.S. might obtain assistance for the Resistance from certain Asian countries, although he had lost confidence in the discretion of those countries. McFarlane told LtCol North that he would try to find a better alternative.

31. In May 1986, U.S. intelligence reports reflected that a South American country was aware that the Reagan administration had asked Israel, Taiwan, South Korea and an organization headed by a U.S. resident to contribute to the purchase of weapons for the Resistance. The South American country was aware that the PRC had already given anti-aircraft missiles, and that Honduras hoped that Israel would give extensive aid, including military assistance.

32. In mid-May 1986, Donald Fortier, the Director of Political Military Affairs at the NSC, was advised that the situation for the Resistance was bleak. President Reagan needed to pursue means of obtaining additional aid promptly, including talking personally to heads of state to tell them that he was dispatching a special emissary with his personal request for their assistance to the Resistance.

33. In mid-May 1986, a senior European official notified Admiral Poindexter that the European country would not approve the transfer of anti-aircraft missiles and launchers from a South American country to El Salvador, for use by the Resistance. The European official was concerned about the risk that the intended final destination of the missiles would leak. A senior Salvadoran military official had furnished a false end-user certificate for the missiles, but the certificate was not used in light of the European response.

34. At the NSPG meeting of May 16, 1986 (attended by President Reagan, Vice President Bush, Secretary of State Shultz, Secretary of the Treasury Baker, DCI Casey, Admiral Poindexter, and LtCol North, among others), Secretary Shultz mentioned an Asian country and DCI Casey mentioned Israel, Taiwan, Saudi Arabia and South Korea as possible sources of additional support for the Resistance.

35. At the President's National Security Briefing on May 19, 1986, Admiral Poindexter discussed Israel and South Korea as possible sources of additional support for the Resistance.

36. In early June 1986, Admiral Poindexter and President Reagan discussed funding for the Resistance. Admiral Poindexter mentioned aid from third countries and the possibility of a letter from a private organization.

37. In early June 1986, LtCol North advised Admiral Poindexter to talk with Assistant Secretary of State Abrams about arranging the transfer of funds from third countries to the Resistance. North said he knew of the accounts and the means by which the funds could be transferred. North also suggested that the U.S. government renew its earlier request to a senior European official for anti-aircraft missiles. North recommended that Poindexter and McFarlane discuss how much Shultz knew about previous support for the Resistance by Taiwan and Saudi Arabia. Poindexter answered that, to his knowledge, "Shultz knows nothing about prior financing. I think it should stay that way."

38. In mid-June 1986, Admiral Poindexter advised LtCol North that he was attempting to get the State Department to seek funding for the Resistance from third countries so that North and the NSC could disengage from the effort. Assistant Secretary Abrams had suggested Brunei as a potential source of funds, and Poindexter had responded that the transfer should be accomplished by having Brunei's Washington Embassy receive a person designated by Poindexter and North.

39. In the summer and fall of 1986, the DoS -- particularly Abrams, Sigur, U.S. Ambassador to Brunei King, and Secretary Shultz -- had discussions with a senior Brunei official in an effort to obtain a contribution from the Sultan to the Resistance. Brunei subsequently agreed to contribute $10 million to the Resistance.

40. In mid-September 1986, LtCol North reported to Admiral Poindexter after another meeting with Defense Minister Rabin of Israel. Defense Minister Rabin was pleased with the reaction of Poindexter and Secretary Shultz to Rabin's plans to introduce Kfir fighters into Honduras and in the process to provide advisors to the Resistance. Defense Minister Rabin also offered North a recently seized shipment of PLO arms for use by the Resistance. Rabin agreed that the ship Erria be sent to Haifa to pick up the weapons. Admiral Poindexter approved the plan to pick up the weapons, noting that the transaction would appear to be a private deal between Retired General Secord and the Israelis.

41. In mid-September 1986, Amiram Nir, an advisor to Israel's Prime Minister, indicated that Prime Minister Peres would raise several topics in his upcoming private discussion with President Reagan, including Israel's offer to provide captured PLO arms to the Resistance. LtCol North suggested that Admiral Poindexter tell President Reagan that the arms would be picked up by a foreign flag vessel and delivered to the Resistance. If Prime Minister Peres raised the issue, President Reagan should thank him, since the Israelis held considerable stores of weapons compatible with ordnance used by the Resistance.



CENTRAL AMERICAN COUNTRIES



42. In early July 1984, a CIA officer reported to CIA headquarters that Honduras was taking the position that it would continue to support the Resistance following the U.S. funding cut-off, but Resistance operations would have to be covert to avoid political embarrassment to Honduras.

43. In mid-August 1984, Poindexter discussed with President Reagan and others a proposal ascribed to Secretary Shultz that would permit Congress to "wink" at lethal support for the Resistance. Under Shultz's plan, the U.S. government would supply non-lethal aid directly to the Resistance. The U.S. government would provide military aid to El Salvador, which in turn would provide lethal aid to the Resistance.

44. In mid-November 1984, a CIA officer reported to CIA Headquarters concerning support for the Resistance by Guatemala and Honduras. Guatemala had provided aircraft and had agreed to facilitate Resistance shipments of munitions and other materiel. Honduras had permitted the Resistance to operate from within its borders, had repaired Resistance aircraft at cost, had allowed government aircraft to bring in aircraft parts, had permitted the Resistance to borrow ammunition when Resistance stocks were too low, and had provided the Resistance with false end-user certificates.

45. In mid-November 1984, DCI Casey requested that LtCol North be provided with a CIA analysis of recent performance and near-term prospects for the Resistance. (Vice President Bush and McFarlane also received copies of the analysis.) According to the analysis, the Resistance had spent approximately $5 million since the funding cutoff. Calero had raised between $2 million and $2.5 million from undisclosed private donors. A Southern Front Resistance leader had received $100, 000 from Panamanian Defense Forces Chief Noriega in July 1984 and $20,000 from a European official, who had previously given $40,000. In addition, the Resistance had received increased aid from some Central American governments. Honduras had facilitated the purchase of ammunition and hand grenades and had donated 10,000 pounds of equipment and two C-47 aircraft. El Salvadoran military officials continued to allow the use of a military airbase in support of ARDE air operations but had not yet supplied rifles previously promised. One European leader had reacted favorably to a request from a Southern Front Resistance leader for arms and funding but had not yet followed through, while Taiwan had refused a request for aid from FDN officials. The analysis reported several specific Resistance operations inside Nicaragua. These operations and other Resistance military activities were hindered by logistics problems, particularly difficulties in airlifting supplies into Nicaragua.

46. In December 1984, a CIA assessment concluded that the future of the FDN without U.S. government support depended on the FDN's ability to obtain continued private funding and continued support from Honduras. The leader of that government had threatened to cease support for the FDN unless it received a signal of U.S. government support. LtCol North urged McFarlane to visit Central America and deliver a signal of U.S. resolve.

47. In mid-January 1985, in anticipation of McFarlane's trip to Central America, LtCol North furnished an analysis of U.S. government policy options in Central America. The options included seeking a negotiated solution toward Nicaragua, restoring U.S. government support to the Resistance, or using U.S. military force to overthrow the Sandinista regime. North recommended the second option -- restoration of U.S. government support to the Resistance -- and discussed in detail variations on the provision of that support. The possibilities included legislation authorizing only third country support; restoration of the original CIA managed program; U.S. non-lethal and third country lethal support; seeking congressional clarification on third country support; overt assistance to a new state established by the Resistance; and funding a collective security organization that would, in turn, provide aid to the Resistance. North recommended that the Administration discuss those options with congressional and Central American leaders before selecting one. North noted that support for military operations by the Resistance should be accompanied by support for non-military activities. In addition, an effort should be made to identify leaders within the FSLN who did not support the Sandinista Revolution. The Department of State ("DoS"), the Office of the Secretary of Defense ("OSD"), CIA, Joint Chiefs of Staff ("JCS"), and NSC felt that the third option -- non lethal U.S. support with third country lethal assistance -- should be pursued.

48. In mid-January 1985, LtCol North arranged a visit to Central America for McFarlane with stops in Panama, Costa Rica, El Salvador, Honduras, and Guatemala. One purpose of the trip was for McFarlane to discuss with his counterparts in those countries their continued willingness to support the Resistance. At McFarlane's request, North arranged a secret meeting between McFarlane and Calero during the visit to Honduras. North accompanied McFarlane on the trip, together with (among others) Vice Admiral Moreau and General Gorman, Commander-in-Chief of U.S. Southern Command.

49. In the course of McFarlane's trip, Alan Fiers (CIA's C/CATF) briefed him privately on political action programs in support of U.S. government objectives. McFarlane was advised before his departure that Guatemala would continue to support the Resistance, provided that it received a quid pro quo from the United States in the form of foreign assistance funds or credits, diplomatic support or other forms of assistance. In El Salvador, McFarlane urged President Duarte to continue his support for the Resistance, including facilitating Resistance resupply operations, and McFarlane told Duarte that such regional support was essential to resumption of U.S. government support.

50. On February 2, 1985, the CIA reported to NSA, DoS, DIA, FBI, White House, NSC staff, and U.S. SOUTHCOM (among others) that Honduran military officers were assisting the Resistance in transporting materiel (including ammunition) bought on the international arms market through Guatemala to Resistance camps in Honduras. The report noted that the Resistance was having difficulty maintaining their logistical network.

51. At a February 7, 1985 meeting of the Crisis Pre-Planning Group attended by Admiral Poindexter, Don Fortier (NSC), Ray Burghardt (NSC), Michael Armacost (DoS), Fred Ikle (DoD), Nestor Sanchez (DoD), Clair George (CIA), Alan Fiers (CIA), VADM Arthur Moreau (JCS) and LtCol North, among others, the CPPG principals agreed that a Presidential letter should be sent to President Suazo of Honduras and to provide several enticements to Honduras in exchange for its continued support of the Nicaraguan Resistance. These enticements included expedited delivery of military supplies ordered by Honduras, a phased release of withheld economic assistance (ESF) funds, and other support. The CPPG was in agreement that transmission of the letter should be closely followed by the visit of an emissary who would verbally brief the "conditions" attached to the expedited military deliveries, economic assistance, and other support. The CPPG did not wish to include this detail of the quid pro quo arrangement in written correspondence.

52. On February 12, 1985, North proposed that McFarlane send a memo to Shultz, Weinberger, Casey and Vessey informing them of the recommendation of the CPPG that expedited military deliveries, economic funding, and other support should be offered as an incentive to Honduras for its continued support to the Nicaraguan Resistance. The memo stated that this part of the message should not be contained in a written document but should be delivered verbally by a discreet emissary. The McFarlane memo sought approval to send a Presidential letter to Suazo through an emissary. If Shultz, Weinberger, Casey, and Vessey agreed, then President Reagan's letter would be signed and delivered through the U.S. Ambassador to Suazo, and a U.S. government emissary would advise Honduran officials of U.S. government expectations concerning support for the Resistance.

53. On February 19, 1985, McFarlane sent a memorandum to President Reagan informing him of the recommendation of the CPPG to provide incentives to Honduras so that it would maintain its aid to the Resistance. The memorandum described each of the agreed-upon incentives. It further recommended a Presidential letter to the leader of Honduras, to be delivered by an emissary who would very privately explain U.S. criteria for the expedited economic support, security assistance deliveries, and other support. President Reagan personally authorized the entire plan.

54. Later in February 1985, President Reagan sent the agreed-upon message to Suazo via the U.S. Ambassador. The letter urged that Honduras do all in its power to support "those who struggle for freedom and democracy." Shortly thereafter, McFarlane sent a memorandum to Shultz, Weinberger, Casey, and Vessey informing them that President Reagan's letter had been sent and proposing steps to be taken to implement the President's intent. The memorandum requested DoD to commence expedited delivery of military items, as previously planned and personally authorized by President Reagan, and it requested necessary documentation to enhance other support programs in Honduras.

55. In early March 1985, Vice Admiral Moreau was advised that military leaders of Honduras had offered assurances that the Resistance could continue to deliver supplies through Honduras, and that Honduras would continue to supply end-user certificates for arms purchases by the Resistance. Major munitions deliveries were scheduled for mid-to-late-March. LtCol North recommended that Honduran military officials be told that the United States Government would soon discuss enhancing other support programs. Vice Admiral Moreau was informed that senior Salvadoran military officials had provided maintenance and storage for the Resistance at a military airfield. President Darte was concerned that further support for the Resistance would be detected by congressional investigators and would result in a cut-off of U.S. security assistance for El Salvador.

56. In early March 1985, Vice President Bush sought McFarlane's judgment as to whether he (Vice President Bush) should encourage a private group to donate a plane load of medical supplies that would arrive in Honduras coincident with the Vice President's meetings with President Suazo. Bush strongly favored such a flight, noting that the group was supportive of the Resistance. At LtCol North's recommendation, McFarlane advised Bush that the flight was a good idea.

57. In early March 1985, Secretary Weinberger informed McFarlane that the DoD had commenced expedited procurement and delivery of military and other items to Honduras.

58. When Vice President Bush met with President Suazo, Bush told Suazo that President Reagan had directed expedited delivery of U.S. military items to Honduras. Vice President Bush also informed Suazo that President Reagan had directed that currently withheld economic assistance for Honduras should be released; that the United States would provide from its own military stocks critical security assistance items that had been ordered by Honduran armed forces; and that several security programs underway for Honduran security forces would be enhanced.

59. In March 1985, LtCol North proposed that McFarlane send a memorandum to Secretary Shultz, Secretary Weinberger, DCI Casey, and CJCS Vessey recommending that the U.S. government furnish additional assistance to Guatemala through the State Department. North advised McFarlane that the assistance was a means of compensating Guatemala for the assistance it was providing to the Resistance. Guatemala had provided end-user certificates for the purchase of nearly $8 million of munitions to be delivered to the Resistance. The ammunition and weapons identified in the certificates would be delivered in several shipments to be receipted by Guatemalan military officers and turned over to Resistance representatives at the point of arrival. North advised McFarlane that Guatemala had presented a list of military equipment that it needed. North noted that once U.S. government approval had been obtained for some of what Guatemala wanted, Guatemalan officials could be made to understand that the additional U.S. government assistance was the result of Guatemala's assistance to the Resistance.

60. In late March 1985, the CIA reported to NSA, DoS, DIA, White House, NSC staff, USSOUTHCOM, and U.S. Ambassadors in Honduras, Panama, Nicaragua and Costa Rica that a ship was scheduled to arrive in Honduras in mid-April 1985, carrying munitions worth almost 2 million that the Resistance had purchased on the international arms market. The CIA reported that a Honduran military official had agreed to arrange transportation of the weapons from the port of arrival to Resistance units.

61. In late March 1985, North advised McFarlane that the initial deliveries of U.S. arms from DoD to Honduras had gone well. The Honduran government had expressed its gratitude through those who were supporting the Resistance. North proposed that McFarlane ask Secretary of Defense Weinberger to convey President Reagan's and McFarlane's thanks to DoD personnel who had effected the expedited procurement for the Honduran government, including Assistant Secretary of Defense Richard Armitage and General Gast.

62. On April 25, 1985, McFarlane informed President Reagan that military support for the Resistance from Honduras was in jeopardy as a consequence of the House vote refusing to provide new funds for the Resistance. The Honduran military had stopped a shipment of ammunition from an Asian country en route to the Resistance after it had arrived in Honduras. McFarlane recommended that President Reagan call President Suazo to make clear that the Executive Branch was determined to maintain pressure on the Sandinistas. During the call between the two leaders, Suazo urged that the U.S. government continue to oppose Communism. President Reagan's personal notes of his telephone call reflect that President Suazo told President Reagan that the Honduran military commander would be ordered to deliver the ammunition to the Resistance. President Reagan pledged his continued support for the Resistance; President Suazo raised the subject of U.S. government aid for his country and the fact that he hoped Secretary Shultz and Secretary Weinberger would meet with a high-level group of Honduran officials in Washington.

63. On April 26, U.S. Ambassador Negroponte notified McFarlane that President Suazo had called Negroponte immediately after Suazo's telephone conversation with President Reagan to say that Suazo was satisfied with the U.S. government commitment to continue support for the Resistance. President Suazo told Ambassador Negroponte that he (Suazo) had assured President Reagan of his full support and had promised that he (Suazo) would check into the interdicted munitions shipment, which he did immediately after the conversation with President Reagan by calling a senior Honduran military official. Suazo told Negroponte that Honduras supported the Resistance fully, and Suazo asked that Negroponte convey his strongest assurances to President Reagan that Honduras would not let down the Resistance. Ambassador Negroponte recommended under the circumstances that the Honduran delegation be received in Washington by Vice President Bush in President Reagan's absence.

64. In May 1985, President Reagan personally approved increased U.S. special support to Honduras and Guatemala for joint programs with those countries

65. During the period when the Boland Amendments were in effect, individuals within the State Department, DIA, National Security Agency ("NSA"), White House, and NSC, among others, were informed about the following support for the Resistance by Central American countries: that Honduras had agreed to provide the Resistance with end-user certificates for hand grenades and for rounds for grenade launchers, which the Resistance wanted to purchase from South Korea; that the relative success of the Resistance since the United States government funding cutoff depended upon its ability to raise private funds and to operate from Honduras with its approval; that a Honduran military official in charge of providing support to the Resistance had agreed to provide the Resistance end-user certificates for automatic rifles; that a senior Guatemalan military officer had said that a decision had been made at the highest levels of his government to continue its support for the Resistance; that the bulk of Guatemala's aid to the Resistance consisted of providing end-user certificates for items purchased from other countries.

66. In August 1985, Costa Rican President Monge indicated to U.S. officials that he would be willing to provide assistance to the Resistance if the United States government would help fund a certain operation in Costa Rica. The U.S. official's concluded that the operation could be funded if President Monge would take certain specified actions to assist the Resistance.

67. In the fall of 1985, Benjamin Piza, a senior Costa Rican official, agreed to permit the Resistance to construct an airstrip in Santa Elena in northern Costa Rica. Payments were made to Colonel Montero, an official of the Costa Rican Civil Guard, for the official's services in guarding the Santa Elena airstrip.

68. In October 1985, Honduras seized a shipment of NHAO humanitarian goods in response to reports that Honduras was facilitating NHAO shipments. The U.S. Ambassador requested that LtCol North travel promptly to Honduras to brief its senior military leaders on NHAO procedures and plans, and to assure its leaders about U.S. government handling of aid to the Resistance.

69. In October 1985, following meetings with Honduran military officials, Colonel Comee of USSOUTHCOM informed General Galvin (CINC, USSOUTHCOM) that Honduras was wavering in its support for the Resistance because U.S. government help had not been fully implemented; Honduran officials were thinking of signing the Contadora Agreement in light of their conclusion that the Resistance could not prevail without more U.S. government assistance. The Honduran officials were particularly angry that the U.S. Embassy there had recently denied any connection with the Resistance, referring inquiries to representatives of Honduras. In Comee's view, the U.S. government had to respond to the concerns of Honduras or lose its support for the Resistance.

70. In December 1985, individuals within the DoS, CIA, DIA, White House, NSC, and USSOUTHCom were informed about the refusal of Honduras to permit NHAO flights into the country. The refusal stemmed from the failure of the U.S. government and Honduran officials to keep a senior Honduran military official informed of Resistance activities. The senior military official was concerned, among other reasons, because there was no local point of contact for coordination between Honduran government officials, the Resistance, and the United States Government.

71. In December 1985, CIA reported to Headquarters that LtCol North would arrive for a meeting with a senior Honduran military official, and that U.S. Ambassador Ferch wanted LtCol North to know that the military official was anxious for the meeting. The most significant operational problem arising from Honduras' refusal to permit use of its airfields was not the restriction on NHAO flights into Honduras, but the restriction on resupply flights into Nicaragua, which threatened to force 5,000 Resistance troops to withdraw from Nicaraguan into Honduras.

72. ln mid-December 1985, LtCol North and Admiral Poindexter visited Costa Rica, El Salvador, Guatemala, Panama, and Honduras to urge those countries to provide continued support for the armed Resistance. Admiral Poindexter assured them that the U.S. Government was committed to supporting the armed forces in those countries. Poindexter made clear to a senior Honduran military official that his country's support for the Resistance -- particularly logistical support -- was essential.

73. In Costa Rica, Admiral Poindexter met with and was briefed by U.S. and Costa Rican officials on the progress of the Resistance airfield at Santa Elena.

74. On December 20, 1985, Admiral Poindexter discussed with President Reagan the provision of U.S. arms to Honduras.

75. In late December 1985, Ambassador Ferch met with Honduran President Suazo and a senior U.S. official concerning the resumption of NHAO flights into Honduras. President Suazo took the request under advisement.

76. In late December 1985, Deputy Assistant Secretary of State William Walker and Chris Arcos of NHAO met in Honduras with one of its senior military officials and other officials as a follow-up to the Poindexter trip in mid-December. The follow-up team also stopped in El Salvador, where they discussed with the Ambassador the use of Ilopango military airfield as an alternate transshipment point for NHAO humanitarian assistance.

77. In January 1986, the American Embassy in Honduras furnished Secretary of State Shultz and Assistant Secretary Abrams with a statement of U.S. objectives in Honduras for 1986. The Embassy noted that Honduras had collaborated over a broad range of security issues -- including support for the Resistance -- during 1985. As a goal for the coming year, the Embassy listed the encouragement of Honduran support for the Resistance and pointed out that Honduran cooperation would turn upon the extent of U.S. government security assurances and military and economic support. According to the Embassy, Honduras regarded support for the Resistance primarily as a U.S. government program. The responsibility for ensuring Honduran support for the Resistance was assigned to the Ambassador, other officers from other government agencies assigned to the Embassy, and the U.S. Military Group.

78. In mid-January 1986, LtCol North prepared talking points for a meeting between Admiral Poindexter, Vice President Bush, and Honduran President Azcona. North recommended that Admiral Poindexter and Vice President Bush tell President Azcona of the need for Honduras to work with the U.S. government on increasing regional involvement with and support for the Resistance. Poindexter and Bush were also to raise the subject of better U.S. government support for the states bordering Nicaragua.

79. In mid-January 1986, the State Department prepared a memorandum for Donald Gregg (the Vice President's national security advisor) for Vice President Bush's meeting with President Azcona. According to DoS, one purpose of the meeting was to encourage continued Honduran support for the Resistance. The memorandum alerted Gregg that Azcona would insist on receiving clear economic and social benefits from its cooperation with the United States. Admiral Poindexter would meet privately with President Azcona to seek a commitment of support for the Resistance by Honduras. DoS suggested that Vice President Bush inform President Azcona that a strong and active armed Resistance was essential to maintain pressure on the Sandinistas, and that the United States government's intention to support the Resistance was clear and firm.

80. In late January 1986, a U.S. official inquired of DoS, CIA Headquarters, DIA, U.S. Ambassadors in Tegucigalpa, Managua, San Jose, and Panama City, and USSOUTHCOM concerning an upcoming approach to President Azcona about the resumption of NHAO flights into Honduras. The official believed that Azcona would permit a temporary resumption of flights based on an agreement by the United States government to open negotiations on increased aid to Honduras.

81. In late January 1986, the U.S. official was instructed that, in seeking President Azcona's permission to resume flights and truck transportation in support of the Resistance into and through Honduras, the categories of supplies should not be specified because Resistance flights from Ilopango airfield in El Salvador and Aguacate airfield in Honduras would have mixed (lethal and non-lethal) loads.

82. In late January 1986, LtCol North visited Costa Rican government officials and Resistance leaders on the Southern Front to discuss progress of the Resistance. These meetings and their purpose were approved by Admiral Poindexter and DCI Casey and known to others in DoD, CIA, and DoS.

83. On January 30, 1986, U.S. Ambassador Ferch met with President Azcona to request Honduras' assistance in supplying the Resistance. The Ambassador sought permission to overfly Honduras when dropping material to the Resistance; to truck material to the Resistance, and for the Resistance to position private contractor aircraft at Aguacate, a military airfield in Honduras, for resupply missions into Nicaragua.

84. On February 22, 1986, there was a meeting in the office of DoD official Fred Ikle attended by Nestor Sanchez (DoD), Fiers (CIA), General Gordon, LtCol North, a representative of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and others with respect to strategy for the Resistance. Although much of the discussion focused on what would be done in the event funding were restored, North stated that the past external support for the Resistance from the private sector had been ruptured because there was no unity of command and people did not know who to talk to. Ikle praised the effort of Retired General Singlaub in that regard. North also indicated that DoD's FOCAL POINT system had not worked: for example, there had been problems obtaining maps for the Resistance from the Defense Mapping Agency.

85. In late February 1986, Secretary Shultz, Secretary Weinberger, Admiral Poindexter, DCI Casey and other senior officials received intelligence reports that a Salvadoran government official had acknowledged that, at the request of the United States government, Ilopango military airfield was being used to help the Resistance as a temporary alternative and supplement to airfields in Honduras.

86. In late February 1986, a CIA officer reported to CIA Headquarters concerning the conditions imposed by Honduras for the resumption of direct resupply flights to the Resistance into and out of that country. A key condition was that for the trial run there could be no leaks or publicity. The CIA officer noted that the problem with leaks arose in part from the involvement of external agencies in Washington, Miami, San Salvador and Guatemala City.

87. In March 1986, a CIA official notified headquarters that Honduras had approved a private lethal shipment to the Resistance to arrive on a certain date. In addition, Honduras had approved shuttle flights to move lethal materiel for the Resistance from one military airfield in Honduras to another military airfield. It developed that the same aircraft scheduled to perform the shuttle flight for lethal materials was scheduled to perform a NHAO flight at the same time.

88. In mid-March 1986, LtCol North prepared a memorandum from Admiral Poindexter to President Reagan concerning a photo opportunity for Benjamin Piza, a senior Costa Rican official. The memorandum noted that Piza had been instrumental in helping the U.S. organize the Southern Front. Piza had intervened with another senior Costa Rican official on numerous occasions and had personally assisted in the development of a logistics support base for Resistance forces deployed north from Costa Rica. Admiral Poindexter noted that during his trip to Central America he had met with Piza to discuss future plans for the Resistance and support for them through Costa Rica. At the photo opportunity with President Reagan and Piza were (among others) Chief of Staff Donald Regan, Admiral Poindexter, Joseph Fernandez (CIA's San Jose Chief of Station (COS)), and LtCol North.

89. On March 20, 1986, the White House Situation Room was advised that senior Honduran military leaders planned to ask the United States for permission to control lethal aid sent through that country to the Resistance in Nicaragua, and that they wanted to receive some sophisticated weapons given the Resistance that were not already in Honduras' inventory.

90. On March 22, 1986, Admiral Poindexter advised President Reagan in a memorandum prepared by North that Elliott Abrams, Gen. Jack Galvin (CINC, USSOUTHCOM) and a team of experts had just returned from visits with three Central American leaders and that the delegation had been successful in obtaining commitments for continued support to the Nicaraguan Resistance. Vice President Bush and Chief of Staff Regan received copies of the memorandum.

91. In late March 1986, Elliott Abrams offered Honduran President Azcona immediate additional security assistance. LtCol North prepared a memorandum from Admiral Poindexter to President Reagan (with copies to Vice President Bush and Chief of Staff Regan) describing the results of Abrams' discussions with Azcona. The details of the enhanced security assistance to Honduras were worked out between Col. Royer (Chief of the Latin America Division of DoD's DSAA) and various Honduran military officials. The Honduran army and navy specifically requested a sophisticated ground-to-air missile on the ground that the U.S. had already furnished such weapons to the Resistance. The total cost for the items ultimately agreed upon was approximately 20 million. Among of the additional assistance to Honduras (in addition to President Reagan, Vice President Bush, Regan, and Admiral Poindexter) were LtGen Gast (Director of DSAA), Assistant Secretary of Defense Richard Armitage, and Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense Nestor Sanchez.

92. In early May 1986, President Reagan wrote to Presidents Duarte and Azcona, thanking them for their support for the Resistance and affirming his commitment to obtain U.S. government funding for the Resistance. In the letter to President Duarte, President Reagan announced that he would propose legislation that Duarte had sought extending U.S. participation in an international trade agreement of benefit to El Salvador. In the Azcona letter, President Reagan announced that the U.S. was disbursing ESF funds that Honduras sought. LtCol North had proposed that these be sent, and Donald Fortier of the NSC staff had forwarded them to President Reagan. Assistant Secretary of State Abrams, DCI Casey, and Undersecretary Fred Ikle of DoD concurred in sending the letters.

93. In May 1986, the CIA reported to NSA, DoS, DIA, the White House, the NSC staff, SouthCom, and U.S. Embassies at San Jose, Managua, Tegucigalpa, and Panama City about donations from donors in Latin America and the United States to Resistance forces fighting on the Southern Front. A Nicaraguan Resistance leader had received funds from Panamanian Defense Forces General Manuel Noriega.

94. In May 1986, Nestor Sanchez, DoD Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense, provided the Secretary of Defense with a translation of a memorandum to President Reagan from President Azcona, calling for substantial increases in military aid for the next five years and increasing coordination between and among the U.S., Honduras' armed forces, and the leadership of the Resistance regarding UNO/FDN military operations. The letter articulated conditions for continuing to help the U.S. maintain all facets of the Resistance, including military.

95. In May 1986, President Azcona indicated to President Reagan that Honduras' continued support for the Resistance depended upon significant increases in U.S. government military aid to the Honduran armed forces and the Resistance. President Azcona noted that his armed forces wanted weapons and ammunition for use by the Resistance -- including grenades and launchers aboard a ship about to leave Europe -- transferred to Honduran armed forces to assure the military success of the Resistance. President Azcona stated that in past months these matters had been discussed with William Taft of DoD, Abrams, Admiral Poindexter, and General Galvin.

96. On July 29, 1986, there was a discussion in the RIG about how the Resistance should best fight the war. Attending were Abrams, Sanchez, Fiers, LtCol North, General Galvin, LtGen Moellering, and Colonel Croker. Fiers indicated that UNO/South was in desperate straits, that UNO/North was not in good shape, and that all funds for resupply were exhausted on July 1.

97. In late August 1986, North reported to Admiral Poindexter that a representative of Panamanian leader Manuel Noriega had asked North to meet with him. Noriega's representative proposed that, in exchange for a promise from the USG to help clean up Noriega's image and a commitment to lift the USG ban on military sales to the Panamanian defense forces, Noriega would assassinate the Sandinista leadership for the U.S. government. North had told Noriega's representative that U.S. law forbade such actions. The representative responded that Noriega had numerous assets in place in Nicaragua and could accomplish many essential things, just as Noriega had helped the USG the previous year in blowing up a Sandinista arsenal.

98. North advised Admiral Poindexter that the British persons who had run the operation against the arsenal had used a Panamanian civilian ordnance expert. North noted that Noriega had the capabilities that he had proffered, and that the cost of any operations could be borne by Project Democracy.

99. Admiral Poindexter responded that if Noriega had assets inside Nicaragua, he could be helpful. The USG could not be involved in assassination, but Panamanian assistance with sabotage would be another story. Admiral Poindexter recommended that North speak with Noriega directly.

100. In early September 1986, General Galvin of SouthCom and an official of the U.S. Military Group met in Tegucigalpa to discuss Honduran support for the Resistance with a senior Honduran military official. General Galvin advised the senior Honduran military official that a U.S. military official would go to Honduras to work with the Resistance. The senior Honduran military official expressed concern about leaks to the media concerning arrangements between the U.S. Embassy, the Honduran military, and President Azcona in supporting the Resistance. General Galvin and the senior Honduran military official also discussed U.S. cooperation with Honduras in various military and intelligence areas.

101. In mid-September 1986, LtCol North notified Admiral Poindexter that Noriega wanted to meet with him in London within a few days. North had discussed the matter with Assistant Secretary of State Abrams, who had raised it with Secretary of State Shultz. Shultz thought that the meeting should proceed. Admiral Poindexter approved.

102. In mid-September 1986, LtCol North advised Admiral Poindexter that former U.S. Ambassador Negroponte, General Gorman of SouthCom, senior CIA official Duane Clarridge, and LtCol North had worked out arrangements for support of the Resistance with General Bueso-Rosa, a former Honduran military officer who had recently been convicted of offenses in the U.S. LtCol North suggested that efforts be made on Bueso-Rosa behalf to deter him from disclosing details of the covert activities.

103. In late September 1986, LtCol North advised Admiral Poindexter that Costa Rican Interior Minister Garron had disclosed the existence of the Santa Elena airstrip. North stated that President Arias of Costa Rica had breached his understanding with the U.S. government. Assistant Secretary of State Abrams and Secretary of State Shultz wanted to cancel Arias' scheduled visit with President Reagan and replace his appointment by scheduling a meeting with President Cerezo of Guatemala. Admiral Poindexter agreed.

104. A U.S. official met with President Cerezo of Guatemala in September 1986. Cerezo told the U.S. official that he intended to pursue U.S. government goals in Central America, including specific support for the armed Resistance, but that he would seek additional military aid from the U.S. in return.

105. President Reagan, Vice President Bush, Shultz, Weinberger, and Poindexter were informed of the U.S. official's meeting with President Cerezo. It was reported to these officials that, in return for Guatemalan support for the Resistance, Cerezo would ask Secretary of State Shultz to triple military assistance to Guatemala, to double economic assistancs to Guatemala, and to undertake other forms of support for Guatemala.

106. In late September 1986, LtCol North reported to Admiral Poindexter on his London meeting with Noriega. Noriega would try to take immediate actions against the Sandinistas and offered a list of priorities including an oil refinery, an airport, and the Puerto Sandino off-load facility.

107. At the end of September 1986, LtCol North reemphasized to Admiral Poindexter that President Arias of Costa Rica should not be invited to meet President Reagan in light of Arias' disclosure of the Santa Elena airstrip. North recommended that Presidents Duarte and Cerezo be invited to meet President Reagan instead, because El Salvador and Guatemala had supported the Resistance.

-
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rppper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-26-03 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #67
105. north...a role model? for who? ....traitors?
Edited on Fri Sep-26-03 12:15 PM by rppper
north arranged weapon sales...advanced anti air missiles...to an enemy country via a drug trade.....some kind of role model. this coming from a man who supports bush, who found it nessecary to send the taliban government 43 million dollars in us aid...to cut down poppy plants. wonder who financed the flight lessons for our saudi friends...we did...follow the money......
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eileen_d Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-26-03 03:50 AM
Response to Reply #53
58. oh, those darn 60s
when millions of Americans were legally guaranteed civil rights. That was a real drag </sarcasm>

Your whole premise is bunk. Nighty-night, don't let the tombstone hit you where the good Lord split you.
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Goku Donating Member (27 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-26-03 04:03 AM
Response to Reply #58
65. you made that up
you made that up on your own. you hate filled bigot

lets look at how the Dems told Black cadidates to get to the back of the bus in 2002
The Democratic Party had cut off the oxygen to Carl McCall's campaign for governor. It matters not at all to them that McCall has a shot at becoming the first governor of African decent in the Empire State's history. Former Minnesota Viking Alan Page won the same fate in Minnesota. So did the black Democrat running for Nevada's governorship and former Atlanta Mayor Maynard Jackson, who had the job of DNC head snatched from him and given to Terry McAuliffe.
Where conservatives look at people as individuals, Democrats looked at color. They told the 53-year-old Page that he couldn't replace Wellstone because he happened to be black, and the state is overwhelmingly white. In Carl McCall's case, they also put party above advancement: the bigger shambles the state Democratic is in, the better it is for Hillary Clinton - especially if it is in shambles as a result of partial participation by a Cuomo.
The Cuomos and Clintons were vying to run this state, and the Clintons won big time. The amazing thing is that they didn't care that they had to sacrifice an African-American candidate of Carl McCall's stature to do so. They don't want him leading the state; they don't want any Democrat to have power to rival theirs. They similarly trampled this guy Page in Minnesota and Joe Neal, the first black candidate for governor in Nevada.

Page is an associate justice of the Minnesota Supreme Court, a "law-and-order liberal" with statewide name recognition from the Vikings. The Democrats told him he couldn't have the job on the basis of his skin color. How can no African-Americans show outrage over Page and McCall and Jackson and Neal? There's a whole lot of discrimination against blacks going on in the Democratic Party. It's never reported that way, but what else would you call it? This is the DNC saying, "Get to the back of the bus." It's sick.
Don't Forget what the Dems did to Harold Ford JR. you could have made history, but they went with Pelosi instead - good call!
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no name no slogan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-26-03 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #65
98. Pure unadulterated Boooollsheeeeeyit you spewing, GoofBall
I'm from MN, and the reason Page didn't run for Senate is because Wellstone decided to run for re-election in 2002, which was his right to do.

Page, being extremely intelligent, knew that it would be suicide to run against a popular and successful incumbent in the DFL primary, sat out the race. Why would anybody want to commit political suicide like that?

Please stop getting all your "news" from Faux News, Limbaugh, The New York Post and/or the Washington Times. You might actually learn something.

Now, go tell your unka Karl to send over some smarter monkeys next time, mmmmmmkay? Thanks.
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Dogmudgeon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-26-03 04:04 AM
Response to Reply #53
66. A question for you
You've asked so many, I feel I ought to return the favor. But keep in mind, this isn't a trick question or a slam.

Why is it that modern conservatives are so keen on asking questions and demanding they be answered?

Really, what's the deal there?

No insults, no invective; I'd really like to know. It's a strange habit, and at least half the conservatives who show up here to "joust with the libbruls" do it.

--bkl
Actually, really, truthfully curious.
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Goku Donating Member (27 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-26-03 04:22 AM
Response to Reply #66
70. an answer
finally!

we want to know what your plans are, ofcourse. We'll sit and listen to Al Gore bash the president, and not say a thing about what he'd do different other than "we gonna make a fresh start". wich sounds to us like he hasn't got a clue or doesn't want to tell us.

plus a fundamental belief that a question deserves an answer. we really don't want to waist time on senarios like this:
Conservative: "how do you justify a $300 truck and SUV tax?"
Liberal: "well, how do you propose we fix the budget deficit?"

after this, it just goes back and forth. we just want an answer, then we'll respond in kind if need be. The above situation just says-in a round about way to us "answer your own question".to us it seems like you don't want to tell us what your ideas are, it sounds defensive and it makes us suspicious of what you are up to.

answer the question honestly, we will respond and things will be less hostile..I hope this helps
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thebigidea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-26-03 04:25 AM
Response to Reply #70
71. yeah, but can you make some more welfare jokes?
Edited on Fri Sep-26-03 04:26 AM by thebigidea
it really makes things less hostile and encourages intelligent debate.

I liked the use of "hate-filled bigot" earlier. Excellent use of pre-emption. You deserve a new POWER TIE for that one.

I'll put you down on the list for 10 free copies of O'Reilly's new book. We gotta boost those numbers.
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Goku Donating Member (27 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-26-03 04:32 AM
Response to Reply #71
73. i have it already, thanks
elieen_d or how ever you spell that, started it- go back and read what she posted...
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Capn Sunshine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-26-03 12:12 PM
Response to Reply #70
101. "How do you justify a 300 SUV tax?"
Easily. Its "progressive"

Use more, pay more.

It actually is supposed to affect the consumptive side of the "free market", Mr. Friedman.
:nuke:

Question Mr. Wingnut:

Since we have suffered from nothing but a decline in the standard of living since the 2000's when the conservatives took over, how is this regression to the societal disparity prevalent in the 1880's which led to nothing but social strife and chaos,culminating in the virtual destruction of the system in 1929, how is harkening back to this period in our history, attempting to emulate it via the neoconservative philosophy of today, how is this beneficial to our country in any way?
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0rganism Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-26-03 04:51 AM
Response to Reply #66
75. What can you expect from someone who uses DragonballZ aliases?
Profundity?

It's the silliest cartoon ever, a bleeding zit on the face of anime. But some folks find it appealing.

The guy works in Vegas, praising its virtues, while his imperious leader condemns the "sex trade" that made Vegas such a rip-roaring success in the first place. He doesn't see the inherent contradictions in his own positions, has a gross misunderstanding of state tax rates compared to state budget woes, blames everything he dislikes on the "commy libruls of the 60s" (who never controlled diddly shit), and couldn't put a coherent sentence together to save his life.

Does it surprise you that he'd come in here making demands?

Not the first freeper, not the last, but Goku/Kakarot's certainly one of the more entertaining idiots I've seen in a while.
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Solomon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-26-03 06:28 AM
Response to Original message
80. What have we learned from this post, folks?
They get real real upset when we express some happiness with the way things are going.

Shit, this pushes their buttons like nothing else. Maybe we can drive 'em all nuts by simply pretending we are happy with everything.

Hee Hee. :evilgrin:
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Bandit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-26-03 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #80
95. What have we learned from these posts?
I learned when Reagan opened up the mental institutions and sent the inmates into the streets some of them end up here and advocate for fascism. :shrug: It is a good thing Americans can spot an insane person easily.
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paulk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-26-03 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #95
106. actually, I think it's a good thing that we have posters
like Goku/kakarot appear every now and then.

Not that it shows what we're up against - but there are plenty of republicans/conservatives/independents out there who would be just as apalled as we are by the mixture of fear, rascism, and ignorance that goku embodies. It's a waste of time to engage the Gokus of this world - but by exposing the true heart of the fascist right, Goku is doing us a favor.
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Malva Zebrina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-26-03 07:19 AM
Response to Original message
81. Same old, same old--easy to recognize--sour faced, bitter selfishness
and most of all--fear--white knuckled fear that someone is going to take something from them that rightly belongs to them-:eyes: -- the rhetoric invariably, includes welfare, commies, librul, and other nomenclature that describes "their money" being theirs and not the bubbermints" and never ever should it be given to anyone not in their immediate family--usually, I have noticed, they bring up Canada and the terrible burden of the Canadian taxes there, too. Somewhere in there, in that garbled logic, is the completely assbackward notion that this same gubberment absolutely MUST regulate the morals and ethics of it's citizens, though, as well as try to force Christianity on them in spite of the Constitution. I have not seen that mentioned yet--but it's out there, I just know it.
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Catherine Vincent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-26-03 11:21 AM
Response to Original message
93. I just went thru a lot of these posts.
And it's obvious that some of them are dittoheads. Why are their posts still here?

I guess they didn't read the rules. Conservative Scum is not welcome here at DU.
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prolesunited Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-26-03 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #93
102. Well, they have been tombstoned
Edited on Fri Sep-26-03 12:13 PM by prolesunited
but I don't mind that their posts haven't been scrubbed. I found the whole thread rather amusing.
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thebigidea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-26-03 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #102
108. ah, marvelous fun
My favorite was the "hate filled bigot" part.

And the Reagan stuff!

Soft on communism! Bwhahahhaha. Boy, I get in some weirdass moods come 4 in the morning.
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Catherine Vincent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-26-03 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #102
110. You know there will be more dittoheads coming here,
since that fat ass Rush mentioned DU on his website.
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zeemike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-26-03 11:45 AM
Response to Original message
97. Didn’t have time to read all of the posts
But I will try later because I bet there is a lot of good stuff here.
But I did want to reply to the subject and hope I am not being redundant.
But I too feel good abut all of the candidates. And my admiration of some of them has grown significantly after this debate. Particularly Sharpton, Brawn, and Kusinich. Sharpton especially has shown to be an intelligent and forthright supporter of the ordinary citizen and also capable of good humor. Who would have thought it when he first announced?
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swinney Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-26-03 12:53 PM
Response to Original message
109. STRONG REFRESHING BREEZE THROUGHTOUT THE LAND.
A diehard. Very diehard. Republican die hard admitted he was not too fond of Bush and in past were the devil a Repug he would promote him.

He feels Bush is a pathological liar. Well! What is new.

draft dodger
criminal military deserter
criminal baby killer
criminal cocaine snorter
criminal drunk
criminal insider trader
alleged adulterer
alleged woman abuser
pathological liar-no question on this one.

name one other american who could have gotten a free pass on such activities?

What is distressinbg? Not 5% ever heard of PNAC.
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