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If Communism were a living, organic system - would it work?

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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 09:56 AM
Original message
If Communism were a living, organic system - would it work?
In previous tries, Communism solidified into a static, monolithic system in which a small cadre controlled all resorces and government. Let's just say Communism were implemented as such to allow for a living constitution that had an apparatus to respond to the changing needs of the people, and it also had an apparatus to allow for the organic growth of the people under it - would this have worked?

Of course having an *open* constitution runs the risk of becoming a dictatorship, or a tyranny of the majority. But if checks were put in place to prevent this sort of thing - could it have worked?
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Danger Duck Donating Member (464 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 09:59 AM
Response to Original message
1. Of course
if you managed to do away with human nature. Aristotle called government a necessary evil. A good description. Creating a government around the notion of the inherent goodness of people is designed to fail, and cause millions to suffer and die.
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 10:01 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. Not too sure of that
All previous Communist implementations were built around a small cadre which controlled all resources, and left it up to them to determine what was needed and what was not.

If a Communist state instead had independent checks, beholden to no one but the people to keep the state apparatus accountable...there might be a chance.
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Danger Duck Donating Member (464 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 10:07 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. Ok
Everythin works in theory, in theory. usually, those checks end up being work farms for those that can't get with the program. Communist societies need a uniformity of opinion, there is no democratic process or party affiliation, just one unilateral governing philosophy. You're old enough to discuss communism intelligently, so in your experience, do you really think such a monolitic society can exsit without authoritan, facist, and brutal tactics? I don't. Take the good, take the bad, capitalism and democracy work better. Imperfect for some, far better for most.
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 10:12 AM
Response to Reply #7
16. I actually think it could work, but an authoritarian regime is its downfal
And that's why I think it needs to be a living system - one that can adapt to the will of the people.

However, this ends up being more like Democratic Socialism which is very different than Marxism.
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Danger Duck Donating Member (464 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 10:13 AM
Response to Reply #16
18. By that logic
We have that system right now. The will of the people could turn this country red in less than two years, without any violence. So get to it.
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 10:14 AM
Response to Reply #18
21. Hmmm think we're a far cry from Democratic Socialism
However, the US Military is the most Socialist component of the state...
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bryant69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 10:14 AM
Response to Reply #4
20. How many resources are there?
I mean if there really are plenty of resources for us all to have whatever we want than communism could work. But if there are limited resources than eventually you have to decide who gets what. And these independent checks would have an opportunity to be corrupted (and certainly would take it).

Oh, wait. I forgot. They will be beholden to the people. Isn't that kind of like Democracy (the same system that gave us Richard Nixon and George W. Bush)?

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com
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Inland Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 10:00 AM
Response to Original message
2. No.
Communism did not provide any concept of valuing capital or rewarding investment in an economic system. Marx thought that capital had no value other than the labor that went into contructing it--which is simply wrong.

It's a fundamental flaw. Not surprising, then, is that communist states tended toward gargantuan projects which provided little or no value to consumers.
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 10:08 AM
Response to Reply #2
9. But again letting the market decide in capitlaism doesnt work either
Look at how many are displace, or even economically assasintaed as a result of the whims of the market....not sure we have a better system in place.
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Inland Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 10:15 AM
Response to Reply #9
22. It most certainly does work better.
Not perfectly, but better. Market systems maximize benefits to societies and individuals ninety-nine percent of the time. The fact is that most of our ability to easily and cheaply obtain just about everything is handled by an unfettered market.

That free markets fail sometimes is acknowledged and reason for governments to step in. That some things are morally incompatible with free markets is also acknowledged.

But communism can't get me a stick of gum without government involvement, good or bad.
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #22
23. But look at the needs vs resources
We produce enough food in this country to feed the world many times over, and we have enough medical resources to take care of all of the worlds treatable conditions, yet we in the US have one of the worst infant mortality rates in the industrialized world, and starvation (contrary to what pundits will tell you) is a major issue.

I don't think the system is working.
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Inland Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 10:22 AM
Response to Reply #23
26. There is a failure of markets in medical care
Edited on Wed Jul-13-05 10:26 AM by Inland
if you want some sort of universal coverage--which we do, for public health if not for humanitarian needs.

Moreover, one could also pull the communism has never been tried, thing, with markets and medicine---the system of health insurance through employment dictated by law doesnt' help.

But that has nothing to do with a system in which a bureaucrat decides whether or not cars or chewing gum is in adequate supply.
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1932 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #23
35. That's not a market failure. It's a failure of political will.
Edited on Wed Jul-13-05 10:52 AM by 1932
We have a government which believes in maximizing the wealth of the wealthiest rather than reducing the misery of the people with the fruiits of capitalism.

A poorly planned economy wouldn't have the fruits of capitalism that could be used to maximize happiness.
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 10:01 AM
Response to Original message
3. One issue - self-interest .
Pure communism requires that all people act for the good of the community. In reality, there are individuals that will act for their own good, even when it is harmful to the community (and even when acting for the good of the community as a whole would also benefit them).

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ArkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 10:08 AM
Response to Reply #3
8. Look up the 80:20 rule.....
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 10:11 AM
Response to Reply #8
15. Pareto's Principle may be accurate, but it's contrary to pure communism.
It's self-interest (greed) that destroys communism. Pareto's Principle is a social observation, not an immutable law.
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ArkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 11:15 AM
Response to Reply #15
39. When you've been around as long as I have you will see that
perhaps it is an immutable law.
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mopinko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #8
36. glad you brought that up
it is the key to understanding human societies. as is an appreciation of the "black arts" i guess you could say. a society without a few bad guys is like a deer herd with no wolves. they get mushy and fall apart.
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Danger Duck Donating Member (464 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 10:11 AM
Response to Reply #3
14. Right on!
People are the worst man. If communism could work, we'd already been living in a communist state. I think it's amazing I can walk to work each morning without watching people eating raw meat in the streets.
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Botany Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 10:01 AM
Response to Original message
5. No
It would not work. Why would people work with a reward?
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 10:02 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. The betterment of the group as a whole (and, therefore, individually)
is the reward.
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formernaderite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 10:09 AM
Response to Original message
10. communism works great in micro states like
communes...the point being that humans do not like coercive governments, and for a system like communism to work, there has to be a consensus of good will and the ability to leave.
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 10:10 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. Not necesarrilly
If the communist state in question is not an oppresive one - and one that allows for personal capitalism, in the same sense that our capitalist system allows for personal goodwill...
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Inland Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 10:19 AM
Response to Reply #10
24. But then again, hippie communes and Amish communities can do well too.
The point being that it's not the communism but the small group of people who conform to a set of mutually held values.

That communism pretends to be a solution for all mankind based on scientific principles but it isn't, if can't work except where everyone who doesn't want it opts out.

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1932 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #10
38. The smaller the system...
...the fewer choices need to be made and the closer the decision makers are to the reality on the ground.

People have the information they need to make good decisions.

When the system gets large and complicated, it becomes almost impossible for a few bureaucrats to make the right decisions about how to allocate resources.
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ladjf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 10:09 AM
Response to Original message
11. It works for bees and ants. Humans? Not too sure about that.
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lvx35 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 10:11 AM
Response to Original message
13. Communism COULD work.
Edited on Wed Jul-13-05 10:12 AM by lvx35
provided that it is administered by a non-human system. Its a complex affair though, that is for sure. Really its all about trust. When everyone can trust everybody else not to be a Republican, communism could work.
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Danger Duck Donating Member (464 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 10:12 AM
Response to Reply #13
17. A non human system?
What do you prefer, Skynet or HAL?

Maybe Knight Rider?
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lvx35 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 10:14 AM
Response to Reply #17
19. hehe. No AI's necessary.
Just a really defined system, not a cult of personality like Mao Zedong.
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Danger Duck Donating Member (464 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #19
25. I guess
But I would support some sort of government that could become self aware and start destroying all human life. In todays political climate, I believe the proper term for such an entity would be "viable third party".
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 10:22 AM
Response to Reply #25
27. Perhaps Distributism?
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lvx35 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #25
32. hahaha! n/t
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Jose Diablo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 10:24 AM
Response to Original message
28. I think the communist form of economic system is viable
A state could 'own' the means of production just as well as corporate interests, maybe even better if the standpoint of balancing workers versus consumer questions came up.

The big problem I see is it has never really been tried because of the confusion over authoritarian versus individual rights issues confused the real questions on economic viability.

Maybe if a nation had a very balanced democratic system of checks and balances, communism could work very well from the standpoint of maximizing the benefits to the most individuals. Provided of course communism wasn't coupled to a police state.
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kiki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 10:30 AM
Response to Original message
29. Read "In The Hills, The Cities" by Clive Barker.
Edited on Wed Jul-13-05 10:32 AM by kiki
It's about the people of an Eastern European town who, in a physical metaphor for communism, strap themselves to each other in their thousands to form a giant, living effigy of a human. The strongest individuals reside in the joints; those with the best eyesight become the eyes, and so on.

In the story, the giant "works", and is indeed a wonder to behold... one character in the story sees it and straps himself onto it, preferring to be a single cell in such a magnificent creature than a single, irrelevant, directionless human being. But when the giant's "partner", another giant made of people from a neighbouring town with whom it enacts a ritual "battle" every ten years, collapses and dies, it has no reason to exist, and wanders into the distance, presumably to roam aimlessly until its "cells" start to die of starvation or exhaustion.

"Popolac walked and Popolac sang..."
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Jose Diablo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 10:46 AM
Response to Reply #29
33. It sounds like a metaphor for competition
It's been stated many times that humans need a will to exist. And that will manifests itself as 'competition' against another. That without competition humans become lazy and more or less just sit around, without direction.

I would suggest a study into corporations that have existed in the past in a situation of legislated monopoly. For example, the Bell System.

Now in the Bells System, after the initial reason to be a monopoly was completed around 1955 or so when the direct distance dialing was implemented, more or less vegetated.

However, there was 'internal' competition to meet indexed goals and whatnot. But the real gains that were possible, like 'intelligence networks, fiber optics, completely solid state switchers' were more or less implemented based on maximum rate of return to the manufacturing operation, not benefits to consumers or the national infrastructure as a whole.

Thus, from this, we can see that 'internal competition' as in this example did not produce the best of all possible worlds from the consumer standpoint.

But is this the fault of the monopoly system itself, or rather the short sighted political oversight of the regulators placed in control of the corporation by government itself?

I cannot say at this point. But I don't think the 'invisible hand' of the market place is really all that invisible nor all wise like the Rands would want us to believe.
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thereismore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 10:39 AM
Response to Original message
30. No. It's based on hatred between classes. Its premise is "poor people
are inherently good, rich people are inherently bad". It's "dictatorship of the working class" -seriously, that's the language used. What a load of bullcrap.
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jobycom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 10:40 AM
Response to Original message
31. Yes, but only if it evolved naturally.
Constitutions, including our own, create economic climates, the way ours creates capitalism, but the climate has to have some basis in the will of the people, and the actions of the people.

The problem with "communism" as it was tried in the Soviet world is that it was forced on people against their will, and against the economic realities around them. When a government has to force an economic or political structure, it becomes unworkable. As we are seeing in Iraq, at least in part because the government is setting itself up as a rival, and therefore is always at odds with the will of the people.

I think a communist type of system could emerge from a capitalistic economy, over time. I think there are hints of it now, in America, in parts of Europe, where social spending programs have stabilized the radical economic swings of "pure" capitalism.

We are led to believe that governments are something opposed to the people, and that economies are natural developments based on consistent natural laws. We think of things like property ownership, wages, money, etc, as absolute. Either a person owns property, or they don't. Either a person makes money, or they don't. Land ownership is a myth, though. What we really mean is land usage rights. You can't "own" land, or anything else, you only use it. In some cases, you use something until it is gone--food, cars, whatever. In the case of land, you use it until you die, or until you move. The land stays there, ready for the next person to use.

So what we are really talking about with capitalism, communism, feufalism, or any other property usage scheme, are the rules behind proerty usage, not ownership. We currently have a system where a person can pay a certain amount of "money" (labor converted into transportable and standardized value) to use land for our whole lives, and to pass that usage to our kids. Government creates the laws that dictate how that usage is allocated. The "money" is stadardized by the market, and its value is gauranteed by the government, but it is still only a person's labor. In short, government controls how much labor you have to provide to use land. In other words, capitalism is not so different from communism, except that we don't notice it as much, since it evolved as a natural system.

The differences in capitalism and communism is largely in the wording when it comes to "ownership," but when it comes to labor and money, the differences are extreme. Capitalism allows one person to control the labor of many people, by accruing money. At its best, it's a beautiful thing. One person accrues the standardized labor (money) of many people, and uses that labor (money) to create more jobs, thus giving more people the opportunity to earn standardized labor. Everyone's living standards go up, and the "capitalist" (capital equals someone else's labor) is rewarded for his role in raising everyone's standards by earning a much higher standard of living.

That system works beautifully on paper. In real life, greed means that the capitalist tries to cheat people out of their labor. Thus, unions arise, government regulates (when it is a legitimate government), minimum standards are set (minimum wages), and capitalists are controlled so their greed cannot ruin the system.

What we started doing in the thirties was, in addition to controlling capitalists' greed, to redistribute some of the extreme wealth. Since no capitalist operates in a vacuum, he or she benefits from even the poorest in society (sales of merchandise created by labor, education of labor itself, etc), capitalists were forced to give some back to the people--to enforce a minimum standard, which is to say, to even out exploitation.

That's where communism would come from. Government would use taxes to redistribute wealth to minimize exploitation. Government would tax those who benefit most and use those funds to create a more equitable climate for everyone, providing certain minimum standards (health care), as well as providing the basic tools to improve the overall welfare (education, roads, security, electricity, etc). Improving the overall general welfare also creates a better business environment, which helps the capitalists who whine about it.

If left uncheked, that system could continue to evolve into communism, where the government (the will of the people, with variations) rewrites "owndership" (usage) laws to fit a Marxist model, while severely limiting how much profit a single person can control. Ultimately, government would reach a point where all wages were paid in taxes, and redistributed as needed to everyone. Workable communism.

And I believe that would be bad. The general welfare and overall standards of living would begin to decline, as people no longer had the incentive to collect money (labor) and allocate it. Everyone becomes both an "owner" and a "laboror," since everyone works for the government, but the government is owned by the people. Resources (including labor) would not be allocated as well, because their would be no reward for working to allocate them. Sure, many people would do it just because it was a challenge and they had pride in their work. That's the part that would remain workable. I'm not saying that a real communist system would devolve to a Soviet-style existence. But the motivation wouldn't be as strong for as many people, and the quality of life would suffer.

Neither pure capitalism nor pure communism would be ideal. They are both just words anyway, just absolute terms--in some ways ad adsurdum arguments--attempting to describe a more complex reality. What we have here is better than both--a capitalist based system tempered with a lot of socialism. True, right now it's going badly, but in general, we've had an impressive record. Our poor are richer than any other poor in history. It's not good enough, yet, but it's better than what's come before. (I'm including all basic western economies, not just the US, in that statement.)

Geeze, like anyone's still reading this! Move over Marx, grab a bench, West, jobycom is babbling like a brook! Sigh. Better get to work before I lose my source for standardized measures of labor.
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #31
37. I read it all
And thought you made some great points - however I'm not sure that greed plays as much of a part as everyone says it does. In the US it does, because we have a system that rewards greed. After several generations of socialism or communism, however - the social mind would change towards that of collectivism rather than individualism.

Think about the Soviet Union circa 1949. The Bolshivek rev had pretty much eliminated greed out of the average person, and thats why the Soviet Union was able to keep things stable (well, in between Stalinist Purges and German Invasions) It was COMECON and the freshly Marxist Eastern European states that devastated the Soviet economy, allowing them to apply Labor Value to resources.
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jobycom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #37
43. You could be right
I'm not up on Soviet history, but I think I can see what you are saying. Greed, I believe, is caused largely by survival instinct, in most people. A person hoardes because he is afraid of not surviving if he doesn't. And of course, he's conditioned to crave material goods. Maybe if society does not reward greed, and conditions a person to work for the collective as part of a survival instinct, rather than working for the individual, maybe in most people it would be eliminated.

Maybe most people are too lazy to be greedy on their own. If greed isn't rewarded, it may be just too much work.

But there will be the greedy, power-mad Cheney and Rove sorts, and the bully Bush sorts, no matter what. The danger is that they would take over, and ruin things. Which sounds like what you are saying happened with the Soviets.

It could work. I still believe it would have to be a natural progression. Stalin's means weren't worth the ends, no matter the ends.
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1932 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 10:48 AM
Response to Original message
34. Communism's biggest problem is the central planning.
It's very hard for a bureaucrat to decide how many shoes to produce or how many pots to produce over a period of time.

If you get it wrong, you waste resources (if you overproduce) or have knock on costs if you underproduce (kids without shoes don't go to school in the winter, people without lightbulbs spend hours trying to steal them from public buildings, or they do nothing when it gets dark).

Well-regulated capitalism does one thing well: allocation of resources. With people on the ground making decisions about where to put their money and time (inspired to chose wisely because it's THEIR money and time at risk) the choices tend to be much more efficient and productive.

If communism's central planning inefficiencies are one end of the spectrum, I think bubbles are the other end of the spectrum: it's decentralized choices about investing resources that become very irrational, based on psychology, that are also wastes of resources that, if manipulated by people with control over information, transfer a lot of wealth to people who know when the bubble is going to burst.
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blindpig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 11:16 AM
Response to Original message
40. do you differentiate between communism and socialism?
where does one draw the line?
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #40
41. Well....
Communism is the collectivization of people into communes that are self contained units, and trade their product for other communes products based on need...

Socialism is simply state control of the means of production. Basically state controlled monopolies.
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blindpig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. does socialism require state control?
Your definition of communism reminds me of anarcho-socialism.

I'm not just pulling your chain. I believe some sort of socialism will be necessary in the near future if civil society is to continue.Between overpopulation, resource depletion and climate change we will hang together or separately. How this is to be arranged is beyond me, we've been trying for 150 years now, I just believe it to be necessary.
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