Madsen: Fitz has more than Plame leak.

[rumpel]

"The word is that special prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald has more than the Plame leak on his hands -- that his investigation now encompasses the criminal investigation of the Niger document forgeries and AIPACgate."

http://www.waynemadsenreport.com/

it is getting very interesting

[Botany]

1. why this could bring down the whole * admin!

:popcorn:

[Octafish]

96. What Wayne Wrote...

The guy's right a lot more often than he's wrong, which is better than almost the whole Washington press corpse put together.

Rovegate

Chairman Ken Mehlman has a good reason to come to Karl Rove's defense. Mehlman's July 12 RNC talking points memo on Rove and the leak of classified CIA information was not only an attempt to clear Rove but himself as well. When the CIA leak occurred in 2003, Mehlman was the White House political director and he reported directly to Rove, then counselor to the President. Mehlman and Rove were both mentioned in the infamous 2002 Power Point compact disc "found" (containing political disinformation to help Jeb Bush's re-election in 2002) in Lafayette Park across from the White House. Mehlman would not comment on whether he was called before the grand jury, a sure indication that he was, along with a number of other White House aides. While not a core member, Mehlman was one of the adjunct neo-cons who helped steer the United States into war in Iraq. Rove apparently phoned Mehlman from the White House and helped dictate the RNC talking points, which may, itself constitute interference in an ongoing criminal investigation and misuse of White House resources for partisan political activity.

There is another major sub-story to Rovegate that is being missed by the main stream media: the forgery of the Niger government documents on Iraqi-Nigerien contacts. Those documents first surfaced in Italy and have been tied to a veteran cell of Iran-contra players, one of whom has a very close relationship with Karl Rove -- an individual who has always maintained close contacts with the Italian neo-fascist elements, the same players who forged the Niger documents and who are now under criminal investigation in Italy for running a parallel intelligence network in Italy and the Middle East and North Africa, including Libya, Tunisia, Egypt, Niger, and Chad.

The word is that special prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald has more than the Plame leak on his hands -- that his investigation now encompasses the criminal investigation of the Niger document forgeries and AIPACgate.

Meanwhile, another veteran of the Iran-contra scandal has surfaced in the Bush administration. He is Robert L. Earl who confessed to the FBI of stealing classified national security documents and then destroying them in the infamous White House midnight "shredding party" and PROFS email erasing fest overseen by Oliver North. Earl hammered out an immunity deal with independent special counsel Lawrence Walsh in return for his testimony against other criminal conspiracists. Iran-contra led directly into the office of Vice President George H. W. Bush and resulted in the convictions of North, National Security Adviser and former G. W. Bush Internet spying czar John Poindexter, and current National Security Council official Elliot Abrams.

CONTINUED...

http://www.WayneMadsenReport.com

The GOPpers are running SCARED!

DU's on to you, turds and slugs of the Bush Crime Family!

For your treasons, may you all be frog-marched straight into the federal pen.

[fooj]

127. Way to go, Octafish!

:toast:

[seemslikeadream]

139. Why can not we read and decide for ourselves Mr. Fish?

Do we need people telling us what we can read and what we can not?

Is this KOS?

[Just Me]

143. I'll tell you why,...we are FAILING to innoculate ourselves against,...

,...the disease called,...XXXXXXXX

On edit: I forget that some people take others' explorations as THE truth. I have forgotten that many people aren't taught how to travel, to journey towards the truth.

My humble apology.

[Just Me]

145. oops

*blush* wrong spot

[Trajan]

147. I, for one, have ALWAYS preferred posters who fleshed out their entries ..

furthermore: why try to STIFLE a DU poster ? ....

Havent we enough political stifling in this society ? ...

I am GLAD he posted what he did .....

THANKS Fish ...

[alittlelark]

153. It was sarcasm directed at Ko's

[knowbody0]

2. yahoo

this is getting good. hard to be patient.

[rinsd]

3. The word is Madsen makes it up as he goes along (nt)

[swag]

4. It has seemed that way in the past.

[Must_B_Free]

11. Yeah - I prefer Alex Jones and Mike Ruppert

:sarcasm:

[KoKo]

94. I know what you mean!

:rofl:

[Octafish]

30. He's only as good as his sources.

Which are better than most people's, I hear.

[BCBud]

5. I was hoping that was true.

How reliable is that?

[11cents]

6. Doesn't Madsen usually turn out to be full of s***?

There's no question that there's a logical connection between the Plame case and the wider story of the Niger document forgery (as Josh Marshall has been pointing out). But I'm reminded of the constant Whitewater-era barking from the 'wingers about Starr being on the verge of the big take-down. And that's when there was a genuinely out-of-control prosecutor. I think it's unlikely that Fitzgerald will stray much from his brief.

[swag]

7. It has seemed that way in the past.

[Must_B_Free]

34. or rather he is so far ahead, that the actual scandals break

1/2 year later.

I thought he was full of crap at times, but then that stuff ended up vindicating him in the long run.

But that is in my recollection based on what I have seen, I haven't considered much of what he has written.

[KoKo]

97. He's far ahead....and has been "used" in the past..

Interesting to read whether some of us think him legitimate or not...I think..:shrug:

[alittlelark]

154. It interesting... the varied 'takes' on the article....

and HOW could Roves leak be connected to the Nigerian Forgeries?????:+ :eyes: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :silly:

[rumpel]

15. What is interesting though is Sy Hersh in his book goes into detail about

the forged documents being given by an Italian " businessman" to the Italian reporter.
The report of the Italians investigating the paralell intelligence agency investigating the abduction of an Iman, by the CIA to Egypt appears to be true.

This was discussed at great length on another thread some time ago. I'll have to look for it.

[Just Me]

29. *LOL* I think I've just fallen in love,...

,...with your memory and ability to assimilate information!!!! :loveya:

[illflem]

8. About time

that someone investigated the Niger forgeries.
Finding who forged them could lead you know where.
As I remember the forgeries where rather crude which means tracing them could be easy.

[rumpel]

22. Sy Hersh in the book said the IAEA did a Google search first and knew it

was forged.

[Carolab]

157. That information is correct--IAEA and Italian press knew

and the story was to be aired on "60 Minutes" but the infamous Bush AWOL memos (Rathergate) pre-empted it--and killed it...

{snip}

Burba, the Italian journalist, confirmed to Newsweek this week that Martino is the previously mysterious "Mr. X" who contacted her with the potentially explosive documents in early October 2002-just as Congress was debating whether to authorize President Bush to wage war against Iraq. The documents, consisting of telexes, letters and contracts, purported to show that Iraq had negotiated an agreement to purchase 500 tons of "yellowcake uranium from Niger, material that could be used to make a nuclear bomb. (A U.S. intelligence official told Newsweek that Martino is in fact believed to have been the distributor of the documents.)

Burba-under instructions from her editor at Panarama, a newsmagazine owned by Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi-then provided the documents to the U.S. Embassy in Rome in an effort to authenticate them. The embassy soon passed the material on to Washington where some Bush administration officials viewed it as hard evidence to support its case that Saddam Hussein's regime was actively engaged in a program to assemble nuclear weapons.

But the Niger component of the White House case for war quickly imploded. Asked for evidence to support President Bush's contention in his State of the Union speech that Iraq was seeking uranium from Africa, the administration turned over the Niger documents to the International Atomic Energy Agency. Within two hours, using the Google search engine, IAEA officials in Vienna determined the documents to be a crude forgery. At the urging of Sen. Jay Rockefeller, vice chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, the FBI launched an investigation into the Niger documents in an effort to determine if the United States government had been duped by a deliberate "disinformation" campaign organized by a foreign intelligence agency or others with a political agenda relating to Iraq.


http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/printer_092504I.shtml

[Imajika]

9. Madsen is not a serious source...

..of information.

Infact, based on his past track record of ridiculous stories that never seem to pan out, I'd say Madsen is just making crap up.

Imajika

[11cents]

12. I was really annoyed to hear him on Air America last weekend,

On Papantonio's show. And he was actually too level-headed for "Pap," who seemed determined to assert, on the basis of nothing, that Fitzgerald was in the tank for the Bush regime.

[Fiona]

10. that's too bad...

I was hoping something like that would happen, but if Madsen says it's true, it's more than likely false.

[dweller]

13. Quick... let's attack the messenger!! eom

:eyes:


dp

[alcibiades_mystery]

16. When the messenger is a known liar and fabulist, nothing wrong with it

e...o...m

[Just Me]

31. 100% of the time?

Are you asserting that he is a liar and fabulist 100% of the time?

Look, I'm not saying accept anything from anybody as the whole truth. But, DAMN, it's just wrong to do an automatic "shut 'em down" thing.

C'mon!!! If you don't like what he proffers then counter it with something more substantive than an automatic attack on the man.

[dweller]

33. but that's the doubter's here best shot...

doesn't matter that Josh Marshall and DailyKos have similar takes...

:shrug:

dp

[alcibiades_mystery]

43. What do you mean by "their"

Who is "they" in your post? Do mean those who find Madsen to be less than credible, or are you making a hidden and therefore cowardly accusation that those who don't believe Madsen are somehow opposed to the general principles of this site?

[Just Me]

50. Talk about the issues IF you are interested. Otherwise, you are free,...

,...to engage in character assassinations all friggin' thread long!!!

What about Madsen's assertions do you disagree with and why? Be a progressive thinker.

[dweller]

60. sub. edited for your clarity

i could care less if you don't trust Madsen, you can skip the posts concerning his reports.

read up on the Rules of this sites, aka the general principles you speak of, it's the message NOT the messenger that we can debate.

i'll await your apology for accusing me of cowardice. I stand by my point. You and others have come on this post and attacked the messenger of the report. Provide the evidence it's wrong.

dp

[alcibiades_mystery]

78. You'll get no apologies from me

Especially since you're the one making cowardly hidden accusations.

[dweller]

91. then let me make this accusation outright

since you failed to understand it before in my response to another poster, not you, but someone else who sees your tactics.

you have come upon this thread, along with other disruptors, to discredit the messenger, since you cannot discredit the message conveyed.

it's against the principles of this site, and i'm calling you on it. You obviously have an agenda you are afraid to name, and can only stoop to what appears to be obsfucation, personal attacks, and bull.

still awaiting your apology.
dp

[fooj]

84. Check Online journal re: Madsen...

He's not ALWAYS off!!

[dweller]

92. i read it daily

along with DU, commondreams and various other sites.

dp

[hiley]

114. therefore cowardly accusation ?

That was Uncalled for !
Hiley

[KoKo]

107. I read Marshall, Kos, Digby, Steve Clemons, Froomkin, Brad Blog, Raw

Story, Buzzflash, Huffington Report, and everything I can get my eyes on. You should see my Bookmarks! But, Madsen is a read just as Ruppert and the rest of what would be considered Progressive Fringe readings.

I got annoyed with Madsen when he got used by some folks here during the post election...but he's an interesting read and WHY NOT read him?
:shrug:

[dweller]

122. yes, one of the wonders of the mind

the further you can expand the limits of the envelope (fringe) , the further you can explore and fly.

or you can just shut it inside a little itty bitty box with neat squared corners.

i'd rather maintain the intention to expand...
dp

[fooj]

130. Dweller...

"Don't believe what your eyes are telling you. All they show is limitation. Look with your understanding, find out what you already know and you'll see the way to fly."R. Bach

Straight out of... Jonathan Livingston Seagull
peace.

[alcibiades_mystery]

49. LOL: That's the problem with blowing your credibility

People tend to disbelieve ANYTHING you say thereafter. Given all the "Bush lied about Iraq, so I wouldn't be surprised if the Pentagon was hiding 10,000 dead soldiers" posts on this site, I'm surprised that this principle of human relations escapes you.

Madsen has shot his credibility with kooky stories more times than I'm willing to count. ANYTHING he says is suspect at best, more baseless speculation at worst (and probably!). Perhaps the better question is why are you willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, given his past nonsenses? Could it be perhaps because you LIKE what he's saying, and merely desperately WANT to believe it? Because that's what it looks like from here.

[Just Me]

58. Fine. Offer up your resume for my unforgiving and cruel perusal.

I'm sure I am able to deliver consistent with your standards. If you're too shy to do that then I suggest you actually offer something of substance on the damn issues rather than hold yourself out as a superior human being over all imperfect others in order to avoid serious discussion.

PUH-LEASE! :eyes:

[Just Me]

132. I'm waiting. I challenge the rest who attack this man to proffer,...

,...their outstanding and spotless and righteous credentials.

Hypercritical critters: pimple-butted folks who have no experiences in hardship, meaning, courage, sacrifice or risk for something greater than themselves; boxed by fear.

[Trajan]

148. Chuckles .... Another 'disappeared one' .....

I appreciate your stance Just ....

Show me the damned money, or argue on the merits as presented ....

Perhaps this broken clock is RIGHT !

[Sterling]

64. What stands out that lowers his cred in your eyes?

I would like to know.

[fooj]

85. Me, too.

Peace.

[nashville_brook]

99. can you point us to the bogus Madsen stories? link?

[rinsd]

106. Let's see....

There was the check proving the election was stolen. But it turned out to be fake but that was also asserted as proof.

Then there was the pre-election "October Surprise" war on Iran to boost Bush's numbers.

Then there's the fact that he seems to be the most "wired in" journalist in the world with contacts throughout world governments and their inteligence agencies.

That's just off the top of my head.

[nashville_brook]

110. links?

[rinsd]

117. DU would actually be the best source...

I do not have search functionality here though.

A posterin the thread has posted links to Olbermann stories about the check and about pre-election Iran attack.

Another poster has posted some of Madsen's original work for poeple to read.

But by all means read his site. He seems to have highly placed sources that are always in the right place at the right time.

On Edit: Another poster was kind enough to post the DU collection on Madsen. Here's the link to the post.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=4093999&mesg_id=4095031

[rinsd]

54. Even Bush doesn't lie 100% of the time...

...doesn't mean I trust him.

[Just Me]

61. *LOL* OMFG!

:rofl:

[rinsd]

67. Was Madsen full of shit or not about his bigg 2004 election story?(nt)

[Just Me]

81. Why do you hate him to distraction from the issues of treason?

Why?

I just don't get it.

Is it some personal thingy with you that is so emotional you just can't bring yourself to actually extrapolate on the issues relating to the outing of a CIA agent who was taking care of our security?

I mean, damn,...what is it?

[rinsd]

109. I'm not the one providing distraction...

I made one post in this thread saying he wasn't a good source for info. It has nothing to do with hate...it has to with bullshit.

What is your slavish need to defend someone who has lied to us?

[Just Me]

128. *LOL* What is your slavish need to protect those who have fucked this,...

,...nation? Is it some personal issue with you or what?

Seriously. You are so damn bent upon attacking this man's character that you completely drop a discussion about the motherfuckers who have viciously betrayed you, me, our people, our country and the world.

I simply am left to assume that this thing you have against a person who DID NOT FUCK THIS ENTIRE NATION must be of a very personal nature.

Please, do tell why you hate him so much that you SHOOSE to vest so much personal energy attacking his character OVER discussing the issues he presents.

I would really appreciate an explanation. I am completely open to that explanation of why you prioritize your loathing of this man over our interests, OUR INTERESTS with respect to the revelation of this corrupt, heartless, evil cabal of ours.

[rinsd]

133. Can you construct a few more straw men?

"Seriously. You are so damn bent upon attacking this man's character that you completely drop a discussion about the motherfuckers who have viciously betrayed you, me, our people, our country and the world."

When did that happen? I think he loves throwing out the red meat of stories we want to believe and treats them as fact supported by his apparent legion of non named sources.

"I simply am left to assume that this thing you have against a person who DID NOT FUCK THIS ENTIRE NATION must be of a very personal nature."

Your mind reading is amazing. Yeah let's coddle a bullshit artist in our own midst because we like the way his stories sound.

"Please, do tell why you hate him so much that you SHOOSE to vest so much personal energy attacking his character OVER discussing the issues he presents."

LOL....I see you spent alot of time on this thread discussing his issues and not attacking those who have doubts about his credibility.

" I am completely open to that explanation of why you prioritize your loathing of this man over our interests, OUR INTERESTS with respect to the revelation of this corrupt, heartless, evil cabal of ours."

I suggest you ask Mr. Madsen for a job. You could be head shoveler in no time.

[Just Me]

138. Mister, there is no freakin' way I could compete with you.

You have failed to post ANYTHING pertaining to the issues presented,...not a single damn one.

Your tone has no effect on me. I repeat, your tone has NO effect on me.

Now, when are you ready to discuss the issues pertaining to the outing of Plame?

:rofl:

Or is that seriously pertinent shit completely out of your territory?

:rofl:

[Stand and Fight]

87. He was completely full of shit. n/t

[rinsd]

17. Even when the messenger is repeatedly wrong? (nt)

[rumpel]

18. Do you then think Bradblog is also wrong on Lemme?

[rinsd]

24. I wasn't discussing Bradblog...

...if it needs to be explained why Madsen is not a source to be trusted, I suggest you search the DU archives.

His articles dealing with the 2004 election alone should suffice.

[rumpel]

66. But I recall Brad working with or getting info from Madsen on this.

[alcibiades_mystery]

14. Oh, it's Madsen...

Repost when anybody serious confirms this.

Thanks.

[mirandapriestly]

23. yeah, I was excited until I saw that. oh well. nt

[librechik]

162. madsen works in the tinfoil factory. Nevertheless, a fact is a fact

and there are several intriguing facts scattered in this story.

Check other sources if you wish, IMO any talk about what happens behind closed doors at the DoD is sheer speculation, even if it arrives in the MSM.

Still, Madsen's innuendo is so delicioua. It is hard to resist.

[hiley]

19. Thank you for posting this

Madsen is on I.N.N.World Report all of the time.
Airing on Free Speech TV, Dish Network 9415
Eastern Time: Friday 6 pm, Saturday 9 am,
Saturday and Sunday midnight, Sunday 1 pm
http://www.innworldreport.net/index.htm
http://www.freespeech.org/fsitv/fscm2/genx.php?name=home
It is a great news source.
Hiley

[Cocoa]

20. Madsen muddying the waters

sending people on wild goose chases once again. :eyes:

[Media_Lies_Daily]

21. Regardless of who's reporting this, it is common sense...

...that Fitzgerald has been digging into all relevant issues surrounding the leak that outed Plame. His history as a prosecutor is of an individual who is detailed, methodical, and relentless. His reputation indicates that he is completely apolitical when it comes to enforcement of the law.

Additionally, if you just look at the way the NeoCons are circling the wagons and refusing to talk to reporters, you get the strong sense that THEY know they're in a lot of trouble.

One more comment...Bush and Cheney retained lawyers as soon as this issue became public. That to me is a MAJOR red flag, one that tells me that there is more here than just Rove outing Plame.

[hiley]

25. Okay Hear me please

Andy was on I.N.N. several times, Wayne Madsen is on all the time as well. Congressman John Conyers, Jr., George Galloway and many others.
Stop bashing Wayne Madsen , if you don't like him don't read the thread !
Come on this place is huge why do we have to have constant criticism ?
Let's have some peace Please ?
Hiley

[Fiona]

27. huh?

Because he's been on some show with other, respectable people, that automatically confers respectability upon Madsen? Interesting....

I've seen both Dick Cheney and Al Gore on Meet the Press. I guess they're both equally respectable as a result....

The idea that Madsen has some special insight into the workings of the Grand Jury is laughable on its face.

[hiley]

32. huh ? What is interesting to me is that I have the right

to my own opinion and when I see something that maybe, I think is iffy or whatever I do not post on it !
Many things are laughable to me but keep it to myself.
not defending the article specifly but the idea that we are supposed to be free thinkers, have free speech, etc...
Also, I am defending people from being constantly ridiculed...
How about some peace around here ?
Hiley

[Fiona]

39. if by "peace" you mean agreeing with you

sorry, not gonna happen.

I'm always surprised by people who visit a political discussion board and are put off by disagreement.

[Just Me]

45. Now, wait one damn minute here.

If you were actually orienting your energy around the issues presented rather than the people presenting them, I would be perfectly willing and able to take your heat. But, that is NOT what is happening.

You are switching the bait from debate of issues to "agreement" with people while you simultaneously attack them.

Bullshit!!! Quit it!!! :grr:

[hiley]

53. No I do not mean Peace is agreeing but perhaps you knew that

already . I am not put off by disagreement so don't twist my words.
I am put off by the policing of every thread by the same groups constantly.
I am put off by the bashing of someone, over and over again.
When one doesn't care for a thread, author, links they should go to another post.

That is a "peaceful solution".

Really, I could care less who agrees with me or doesn't agree with me.
Peace would be accomplished if attacking other people stopped, correct ?
Hiley

[BamaBecky]

42. Go on a laugh away...while the rest of us dig in and study what he has to

say....IT'S NOT JUST WAYNE MADSEN that has been hinting that this INVESTIGATION was BIG....and after more than ROVE....It has been discussed other places.........

Guess you will just have to be the last to find out what's going on...

you remind me of my sister....who distrusts the Internets!

and no I don't SOAK up everything I read......I hold out a good healthy skeptisism.........but I never bash the messenger........

let the story develop......plenty of time to laugh after it is all over and you turn out to be right or wrong.....whatever the case is..

Bama

[rinsd]

28. If Madsen wasn't a fraud who wasted...

...many DUers energies on wild goose chases than I would agree with you.

[Just Me]

36. You are attacking the man rather than the issues. Disturbing. Very. n/t

[hiley]

41. That is my point exactly..

one can be wrong sometimes and right other times also..
hiley

[Stand and Fight]

95. I agree with you in that you have the right to express your beliefs...

The ISSUE is that Madsen was wrong. He was the messenger and he bungled the message. Time-and-time again. No one on here should take it personal if some people happen to have a strong aversion to him and find any of his work questionable. Likewise, those who believe that he should be given the benefit of the doubt or believed outright, deserve to have the same respect shown. I clearly remember the seeming falsehoods centered around Madsen's reporting in the aftermath of the 2004 election... In my own opinion, he's got way too low of a batting average for me to even consider his reportable to be reputable. That is just my opinion though and while I disagree with others who avow his worth, I'm willing to read what he has to say nonetheless. However, I would advise great reservation for anyone reading his stories. His track record is nefarious in my opinion.

[Just Me]

142. There are those who SUFFOCATE any expression of thoughts,...

,...because they are so goddamn busy attacking a human being who has never demonstrated an intention to SPEND others. Damn!!!

This thread had the potential of being a discussion of THOUGHTS about the issues surrounding the appalling traiterous acts of this fucked up administration.

But, NOOOOOO,....it's all about demonizing a human being who hasn't killed a friggin' fly!!

Disgusting. I am so disgusted. I am disgusted at the foolishness, the,...aww hell, you don't care. Let's just throw people off this ship,...at will.

Incredible.

[Karmadillo]

26. Madsen: Heffalumps in White House basement!!!!!

n/t

[Must_B_Free]

35. Someone please discredit Masden

post one of his atrticles that has turned out to be bunk...

So far I have not seen one in this thread.

[thebigidea]

37. what about the huge conspiracy to steal the election he cracked -

then FORGOT and never followed up on, as if it weren't the monster story to end all stories if true.

[Just Me]

40. Hmmm,...I believe that is called, "hypercritical". Moreover, there is,...

,...evidence that the paperless systems proved to produce some results even you cannot dispute.

You act like criminals never get away with crimes *LOL*.

C'mon. Why are you being so confrontational?

[thebigidea]

48. I post one reply to this thread and i'm confrontational?

You haven't even heard me be mildly combative, much less confrontational.

[BamaBecky]

52. THIS story is scaring the bejebbies out of some folks! LOL

[fooj]

68. Oh, that's right. The election WASN'T stolen.

:rofl:

[thebigidea]

72. I didn't say that at ALL - i'm saying he gave up on the story.

you'd think someone who could prove it would pursue the story until he either cracked it or died trying. Wouldn't you?

[hiley]

83. How do you know he stopped working on it ?

hiley

[Just Me]

90. You are attacking HIM rather than the story? Bull!!! I'm sick of this.

I'll be damned before I tolerate this RW-like stoning!!!

Why don't you put yourself out there, smack in the middle of this country's worst example as a target range? Some people actually have the courage to do that,...and people like you piss all over them,...for what,...to accomplish what?

I'll tell you what's accomplished: DESTRUCTION,...something worse than nothing.

If you seek someone to aim and fire at,...I STRONGLY suggest you pick your targets carefully,...otherwise, you are simply executing the very people who would save your ass and emboldening those who would spend you in a minute.

[thebigidea]

100. the only thing i'm attacking are his fictional stories & red herrings

they always lead to dead ends and distractions. I'm not going to support someone with a track record like that - we destroy MSM assholes all the time for far lesser infractions. The same standard should apply.

That's my only point, and I won't continue this conversation further - because i'm sure i'll be called some kind of CIA disinformation agent in about two posts or so.

Enjoy the thread, and may this journalist continue exciting your imagination with his ripping yarns, thrilling tales, and poorly documented expose.

[rinsd]

113. self delete

why: because it was needless contribution to flaming.

[rumpel]

69. He did follow up it all leads to Lemme, Feeney & Yang Enterprises, Curtis

worked at Yang.

It is not a theory the election was rigged.

[fooj]

134. Well, apparently some of us DO believe that the election was stolen!

It's a free country, right?

peace.

[Just Me]

38. More succinctly, someone offer substantive counter-arguments,...

,...against the issues rather than attacking the man.

Let's be grown-ups. Yes? }(

[rinsd]

44. The check is in the mail! (nt)

[BamaBecky]

46. Yes...put up...or hush about it! I agree!....n/t

[Karmadillo]

47. Olbermann seems to have raised reasonable objections to

this story:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6533008/#041127a

<edit>

Mr. Madsen followed up with another piece in which he claimed to have an actual copy of the check. A single election-fixing check for $29.6 million. One-stop shopping for the political scandal of the millennium.

Now, he is back with an even longer, more intricate story that drags in NASA, Lockheed Martin, Brazilian computer maintenance technicians, Nigerian scammers, and a reputed affidavit that fingers a Florida congressman.

The problem is that the amazing check for $29.6 million, whose authenticity was the cornerstone of Madsen’s first two stories, not only turns out to be a fraud, but now, its fraudulence becomes one of the cornerstone’s of Madsen’s newest story. As he told the Pacifica radio station (KPFT) in Houston Sunday, “Yeah, it turns out that the $29 million check, although a valuable clue, was a fake. But it looks like the people who released the check did so as a way to say ‘hey, look here, don’t look at the check, look who’s behind it, look around it, follow the money that these people have been involved with…’”

Once again, if any part of Mr. Madsen’s writing on the election is proved and valid, I’ll not only repeat my offer to pay his way for him to pick up his Pulitzer Prize — I’ll physically carry him there myself. There could very well be facts — even important facts — hiding in there somewhere.

But to turn on a dime and write that a document is real, and hard evidence of a crime, and then come back and admit that it’s fake, but still hard evidence of a crime, is an intellectual leap of faith worthy of Evel Knievel. It violates every precept of good journalism, to say nothing of good investigation. I won’t even ask about logic.

[thebigidea]

51. I didn't even catch the followup about the check being fake. No wonder.

he's either incompetent or lying. Either way, not the sort of fellow you want in the trenches when facing snakes like the Bush gang.

[BamaBecky]

57. It did turn out to be a fake check....go read about it!...n/t

[BamaBecky]

55. Could it be that Madsen is still working on this story, or

perhaps has run into a wall.....he can't get past? Just because he has not YET followed up....does not mean he was spinning fairy tails, or that he isn't crediable.........

[rinsd]

65. Or could it be he's actually is full of it?

You're a reporter with the biggest story in the world, proof the 2004 election was outright stolen and you just drop it?

That's logical?

[BamaBecky]

86. He is still alive.......and it ain't over till it's over......chill out...

[Stand and Fight]

119. Come on!

It's been damn near seven months since he wrote that story!

[BamaBecky]

146. so

[xynthee]

88. Something about this part of the article sounds vaguely familiar:

"But to turn on a dime and write that a document is real, and hard evidence of a crime, and then come back and admit that it’s fake, but still hard evidence of a crime, is an intellectual leap of faith worthy of Evel Knievel. . . ."

[Stand and Fight]

118. Thank you....

Now prepare to be attacked by his defenders who completely ignore the facts behind his inconsistencies in reporting.

[Karmadillo]

75. Olbermann also found the Madsen story of the imminent attack on Iran

before the 2004 election to be questionable.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6533008/#041127a

<edit>

But short of those two examples— neither of which Mr. Madsen cites— his “media reports from around the country concerning the locking down of precincts while votes were being tallied,” are all the same: about Warren County. Journalistically, this is the equivalent of a news account of the unfortunate man who’s been hit by lightning six times, being inflated into “media reports from around the country concerning people being hit by lightning six times each.”

If there are other lockdown cases, Mr. Madsen should verify and report them.

It is also useful in these situations to look at an author’s other work. On October 20th, in what to the best of my knowledge was Mr. Madsen’s previous jaw-dropper, he wrote “Bush pre-election strike on Iran ‘imminent.’” This time the piece began: “According to White House and Washington Beltway insiders…”

Mr. Madsen then told of a blood-curdling plan for the U.S. to strike top Iranian Islamic leaders, a series of mosques, nuclear research sites, and at least one nuclear reactor - all of it to be accomplished before November 2, thus making the President “assured of a landslide win against Kerry.”

Now, I don’t claim to know everything in the news, but if we had bombed Teheran late last month, I think somebody would have mentioned it to me.

more...

[rinsd]

98. Pre-election attack on Iran...

...the check

...the fact he seems to have highly placed sources in every single world government and their agencies.

[fooj]

56. Look. I've read Madsen and I'm quite perplexed by the reaction

I find when posting here. I think you all best go back and check your "sources" because I've found that Madsen is OFTEN on to something. If you weren't so busy bashing his CREDIBILITY, maybe you'd realize that. IMO, he has been right about quite a bit as of late. Hey, I have an idea...if you want real news--MSM has 24 hour news channels that report with accuracy 24-7! :spray:

Peace.

[BamaBecky]

63. Check out post # 52..........Fitzgerald may be getting too close

to something......and these folks want to SQUASH the story......what better way....than to shoot the messenger!

[Quixote1818]

71. Madson is usually on to something

Sometimes he jumps the gun but I think he hits more often than he misses. I agree with you.

[fooj]

76. Why, thank you!

:hi:

[Stand and Fight]

121. I don't think it's fair for you to attack people on that premise.

Some of us simple have viable reason to not believe Wayne Madsen. Please don't use the dry old hypocritical argument that the MSM offers no real news as you are insinuating. I've seen people rage against the MSM on one hand and then on another celebrate when it reports something to their liking. Olbermann is very likely one of the few sources in the main stream media I trust. Given the collusion of my own research on Madsen and Olbermann's reporting I have no reason to believe Madsen has very much credibility. I would ask that you desist with attack fellow DUers because they do not find this source as reliable as you do. Have a good evening.

[AuntiBush]

59. Help! :) What is "AIPACgate?"

[lateo]

70. That is...

The Jewish lobby that was getting passed secret information and got caught.

[rumpel]

73. I believe it is the Italian investigation into the paralell intelligence,

which resulted from the abduction of an Iman (terrorist ties) in Italy by the CIA. This investigation opened a whole big can of worms it seems.

[AuntiBush]

79. Thanks much. I read something abt that last night. :)

[fooj]

82. Nothing to do with Italy...

at least not AIPAC. So much going on, isn't there?
Peace.

[fooj]

80. American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC)

Hi Auntie!!!:hi:

Peace.

[robertpaulsen]

89. I think Madsen's saying Plamegate is tied to Larry Franklin.

Here's some info on it:

August 27, 2004
The FBI investigation.

For months, I have been working with my colleagues Paul Glastris and Josh Marshall on a story for the Washington Monthly about pre-war intelligence. In particular, the component I have been focusing on involves a particular series of meetings involving officials from the office of the undersecretary of defense for Policy Doug Feith and Iranian dissidents.

As part of our reporting, I have come into possession of information that points to an official who is the most likely target of the FBI investigation into who allegedly passed intelligence on deliberations on US foreign policy to Iran to officials with the pro-Israeli lobby group, AIPAC, as alleged by the CBS report. That individual is Larry Franklin, a veteran DIA Iran analyst seconded to Feith’s office.

Here is what I was told in the days before the FBI investigation came to light.

A source told me that some time in July, Larry Franklin called him and asked him to meet him in a coffee shop in Northern Virginia. Franklin had intelligence on hostile Iranian activities in Iraq and was extremely frustrated that he did not feel this intelligence was getting the attention and response it deserved. The intelligence included information that the Iranians had called all of their intelligence operatives who speak Arabic to southern Iraq, that it had moved their top operative for Afghanistan, a guy named Qudzi, to the Iranian embassy in Baghdad, that its operatives were targeting Iraqi state oil facilities, and that Iranian agents were infiltrating into northern Iraq to target the Israelis written about in a report by Seymour Hersh. According to my source, Franklin passed the information to the individual from AIPAC with the hope it could reach people at higher levels of the US government who would act on it. AIPAC presented the information to Elliot Abrams in the NSC. They also presented the part that involved Israelis who might be targeted to the Israelis, with the motivation to protect Israeli lives.

more...

http://www.warandpiece.com/blogdirs/001067.html

[Just Me]

101. BONG BONG BONG (a bit bigger than ding ding ding)

}(

[robertpaulsen]

115. Thanks. All roads lead to the WHIG/OSP/PNAC cabal.

Here's another take on the scandal, from the fantastic Karen Kwiatkowski:

Spies in the Pentagon?

by Karen Kwiatkowski

snip

The pre-Republican National Convention weekend story is that Larry gave draft Iran policy guidance and other info to AIPAC representatives, in hopes of communicating a level of concern for what was going on in Iraq to his higher ups in the Pentagon, specifically Doug Feith and Paul Wolfowitz.

Somehow, having to go outside the system to get the Pentagon brass to show concern about what is really going on in Iraq doesn’t surprise me at all.

The story of spies in the Pentagon will percolate, no doubt. I have no answers, but perhaps the questions themselves will help explain what is going on in the current administration, and the administration that is sure to come.

snip

Why is Larry the result of FBI investigational success instead of the names of the Pentagon senior operatives who shared classified information with Ahmad Chalabi regarding American success in reading coded Tehran communications, specifically now as neoconservatives rage for war in Iran? Or instead of the names of senior White House operatives who revealed and destroyed the U.S. security mission of Valerie Plame?

more...

http://www.lewrockwell.com/kwiatkowski/kwiatkowski91.html

I think Madsen is on to something, and Kwiatkowski suspects the same.

[robertpaulsen]

163. This is an important story! Here's more of Karen Kwiatkowski's sources.

in hopes of communicating a level of concern for what was going on in Iraq to his higher ups in the Pentagon, specifically Doug Feith and Paul Wolfowitz.

http://www.warandpiece.com/

Pentagon brass to show concern about what is really going on in Iraq
http://olive.dominionpost.com/

specifically now as neoconservatives rage for war in Iran?
http://www.lewrockwell.com/buchanan/buchanan11.html

The Plame/AIPAC connection needs to be researched, either here or on a separate thread. Look at all the great research we did last year on the Plame threads. We can do it again.

[robertpaulsen]

62. You've got to love Wayne Madsen for putting this on his site links:

There is no link here to Daily Kos. That blog smells like an unclean rest stop on the Information Superhighway (a la Democratic Leadership Council connections)
Wayne Madsen


Whatever you think of his articles, you gotta give him a :thumbsup: for putting that Stalinist shitsite in its place.

[Jazzgirl]

74. I knew it!!!!!

I knew the two were tied together along with the DSM! I can't wait to see what Fitz does with this! He is too merch!!!

:evilgrin: :toast: :bounce: :thumbsup: :yourock:

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

77. I wonder how much pressure Fitzgerald is feeling

or whether he's been offered a nice vacation in a humid climate with a new concrete wardrobe. After all, he's a relative small fry threatening the very existence of the extremely powerful and vastly rich.

[seemslikeadream]

93. Madsen is a Holocaust denier?

:sarcasm:

[Stand and Fight]

102. Madsen does not have a great track record...

I will post some links and excerpts to his articles and DUers can make up their own minds as to how worthy he is of their individual trust.

[Stand and Fight]

105. Saudis, Enron money helped pay for US rigged election

Saudis, Enron money helped pay for US rigged election

By Wayne Madsen
Online Journal Contributing Writer

November 25, 2004—According to informed sources in Washington and Houston, the Bush campaign spent some $29 million to pay polling place operatives around the country to rig the election for Bush. The operatives were posing as Homeland Security and FBI agents but were actually technicians familiar with Diebold, Sequoia, ES&S, Triad, Unilect, and Danaher Controls voting machines. These technicians reportedly hacked the systems to skew the results in favor of Bush.

The leak about the money and the rigged election apparently came from technicians who were promised to be paid a certain amount for their work but the Bush campaign interlocutors reneged and some of the technicians are revealing the nature of the vote rigging program.

There have been media reports from around the country concerning the locking down of precincts while votes were being tallied. In one unprecedented action in Warren County, Ohio, election officials locked down the facility where votes were being counted. The officials said this was in response to a Level 10 high-threat terrorist warning being issued by the Department of Homeland Security and the FBI for Warren County. George Bush won 72 percent of the vote in Warren County, much larger than his percentage of victory statewide.

The money to rig the election in favor of Bush reportedly came from an entity called Five Star Trust, largely based in Houston but a worldwide entity that is directly tied to the Saudi Royal Family. Five Star Trust was termed "a well-protected vehicle" that has been used to support both Bush and Osama bin Laden in the US and around the world.

LINK: http://www.onlinejournal.com/Special_Reports/112504Madsen/112504madsen.html

[Stand and Fight]

108. Texas to Florida: White House-linked clandestine operation paid...

Texas to Florida: White House-linked clandestine operation paid for "vote switching" software

By Wayne Madsen
Online Journal Contributing Writer

December 6, 2004—The manipulation of computer voting machines in the recent presidential election and the funding of programmers who were involved in the operation are tied to an intricate web of shady off-shore financial trusts and companies, shady espionage operatives, Republican Party politicians close to the Bush family, and National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA) contract vehicles.

An exhaustive investigation has turned up a link between current Florida Republican Representative Tom Feeney, a customized Windows-based program to suppress Democratic votes on touch screen voting machines, a Florida computer services company with whom Feeney worked as a general counsel and registered lobbyist while he was Speaker of the Florida House of Representatives, and top level officials of the Bush administration.

According to a notarized affidavit signed by Clint Curtis, while he was employed by the NASA Kennedy Space Center contractor, Yang Enterprises, Inc., during 2000, Feeney solicited him to write a program to "control the vote." At the time, Curtis was of the opinion that the program was to be used for preventing fraud in the in the 2002 election in Palm Beach County, Florida. His mind was changed, however, when the true intentions of Feeney became clear: the computer program was going to be used to suppress the Democratic vote in counties with large Democratic registrations.

According to Curtis, Feeney and other top brass at Yang Enterprises, a company located in a three-story building in Oviedo, Florida, wanted the prototype written in Visual Basic 5 (VB.5) in Microsoft Windows and the end-product designed to be portable across different Unix-based vote tabulation systems and to be "undetectable" to voters and election supervisors.

LINK: http://www.onlinejournal.com/Special_Reports/120604Madsen/120604madsen.html

[Stand and Fight]

111. The Comprehensive DU Collection on Madsen

Decide for yourself from the annals of our own site people:

http://demopedia.democraticunderground.com/index.php/Wayne_Madsen

[rinsd]

120. Thanks for posting the links (nt)

[Stand and Fight]

123. No problem.

I wish the flame-wars would stop.

However, people should -- ourselves included -- give him the benefit of the doubt. Likewise, we should also be able to urge caution in reading his reporting.

[FreedomAngel82]

103. Interesting

This makes sense if it's true. I have had a feeling that Fitzegerald is going after something else other than Rove.

[hiley]

126. FreedomAngel82

Fitzgerald is definitely going all out, I feel.
I can not wait to see what happens in the end.

[Walt Starr]

104. Same foolish mistakes George Ryan made in Illinois

HE played it as a political game, too.

Fitzgerald is a patient and deliberate professional.

sit back and watch the fun.

:popcorn:

[cestpaspossible]

112. Madsen has absolutely no credibility whatsoever.

[Lex]

152. I was afraid of that.

Well, we'll sit back and see what happens.

[seemslikeadream]

116. How about reading some Madsen and deciding for oneself?

And when the truth comes out about Five Star Trust then we'll see who really knew what when


Wayne Madsen sent me an email about his fraud article..here's what he says
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=203&topic_id=84862
Madsen: Curtis, Feeney, Khashoggi link, $29.6 mil check, former CIA!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=203&topic_id=297594
4th Madsen Article:White House-linked operation paid for "vote switching"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=203&topic_id=117320
Madsen, Five Star Trust, World War II loot
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=203&topic_id=109143
ALERT: Madsen story strong/incomplete, WE HAVE AFFIDAVIT
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=203&topic_id=117988
Transcript of Wayne Madsen interview 12/05 on Sunday Monitor
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=203&topic_id=116796
Madsen says new article forthcoming re: tieing it together and decoys
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=203&topic_id=104937
Greg Palast Investigation called in gets widespread
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=203&topic_id=114232
Madsen asks for our help into Five Star and "Mr. Horn" (more information)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=203&topic_id=107312
Madsen's third article!!!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=203&topic_id=96274
WAYNE MADSEN Q&A DU 11/28 PM ------------A COMPILATION
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=203&topic_id=88322
I'm having no trouble believing Madsen
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=203&topic_id=88869
Wayne Madsen sent me an email about his fraud article..here's what he says
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=203&topic_id=84862
Keith is on and he's going to be talking about the new..
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=203&topic_id=90282
Olbermann blogs about Madsen info
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=203&topic_id=82722
***Election 2004: 73 SCHOOLS LOCKEDDOWN IN PALM BEACH ***
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=203&topic_id=80870
Saudis, Enron money helped pay for US rigged election
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=203&topic_id=84802
Olbermann & Madsen are talking -- KO may change his tune.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=203&topic_id=84636
Wayne Madsen will be on radio Today! Listen online.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=203&topic_id=86231
Madsen Updates Report
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=203&topic_id=81645
e-mail reply from Mr. Wayne Madsen
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=203&topic_id=79932
Port Vila Presse KICKS BUSH BUTT ON MADSEN STORY
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=203&topic_id=83560

[seemslikeadream]

124. Manhattan's veteran District Attorney Robert Morgenthau Five Star Trust

Manhattan's veteran District Attorney Robert Morgenthau is on the verge of penetrating a major conduit for foreign money into the Bush family network and the American political system that parallels the campaign finance scandals in Ohio and Florida. Morgenthau's investigation of the notorious Sam and Charlie Wyly brothers of Texas, the billionaires who spearheaded the Swift Boat disinformation campaign against John Kerry and a similar distortion effort against John McCain in 2000, is focused on a Wyly-controlled Isle of Man off-shore account tied to the Bank of America. In 1989, George H. W. Bush dispatched a Houston attorney to the Isle of Man to take charge of the secret Bush accounts. One of the accounts was Five Star Trust, a multi-billion dollar account used by the Bushes as a covert off-shore money tranche for their political and business purposes.

http://www.waynemadsenreport.com/scoops/Lemme.htm

http://www.onlinejournal.com/Special_Reports/120104Madsen/120104madsen.html

Things Are Even Worse in Ohio than Anyone Could Imagine
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=3834542

[Me.]

137. Very Interesting SLaD

Let's see how deep this all does and how much gets dug up.

[WilliamPitt]

125. Caution

Madsen has a long history of writing information he wishes were true and presenting it as hard news.

Several links presented up-thread can confirm this.

[Stand and Fight]

129. Thank you, Will.

You put it far better than I could have, sir.

[dweller]

131. in other words, editorializing ?

or would you rather call it investigational journalism?

where do you make the distinction?

tia,
dp

[WilliamPitt]

159. There is a difference

between presenting opinions, and presenting opinions dressed as hard facts. You know this.

[KoKo]

135. It's a good caution to "newbies." And, they do need to take Madsen

with a dose of salt...but for the rest of us he's an interesting read in the mix. And, even newbies will at some point be able to expand their reading even if they start with Madsen. Inquiring minds never rest and reading all progressive viewpoints ...even the fringe is better than tuning into Faux and CNN all day. :shrug:

I understood what you said...not dissing you..just expanding it.

[fooj]

136. Well said, Koko!

peace.

[WilliamPitt]

160. True

One of Madsen's great strengths is his ability to gather disparate threads of data into a whole. It is an exercise in theorizing that is well worth reading, so long as one does not mistake his theorizing for this-is-happening hard news.

[MelissaB]

144. The guy always tells a great story, but after reading a lot of his work

after the election I came to the same conclusion. I just hope people take time to read several of his stories before getting their hopes up about anything he writes.

[Stinky The Clown]

140. Watergate ...... more than an apartment complex ..... more than a scandal

And without a doubt, more than a blow job.

[seemslikeadream]

141. By all means let's wait for Woodward and Bernstein

I'm sure they've been on it

:sarcasm:

[trumad]

149. Ahhhh Liberals....

Sometimes we pray so hard that something is true that we lose all objectivity.

[Stand and Fight]

151. Sad but true. n/t

[tavalon]

158. Hey

I don't think Bernstein sold out. Woodward on the other hand is a Bush shill.

[brettdale]

150. kick

kick

[Miss Chybil]

155. Could it be true????? nt

[brettdale]

156. kick

kick

[ProfessorGAC]

161. I'm Not Surprised

If you look into how he took apart the Republican machine here in Illinois, he's very methodical, gets big fish doing big wrongs, and doesn't tilt at windmills.

The Professor

[eyepaddle]

164. responded to so I can check in more depth later

For now Ve-r-r-r-r-r-r--y interstinge

[dogday]

165. Oh What Tangled Webs We Weave

when first we practice to deceive and deceive and deceive. Everything they have done is going to come around and bite them on their asses.....