London Bombings: Just my opinion,

[screembloodymurder]

but wouldn't you have to be pretty dumb to put a timer on a bomb and then hold it till it goes off? Must have been Dumb and Dumber x two.

[Radio_Lady]

1. Well, they're supposed to be suicide bombers --

The timing device would just set up what time the bomb goes off, not whether or not the suicidal human bomber would be actually there or not.

I hope this is clear.

[screembloodymurder]

7. Crystal.

I would have pushed a button.

[imenja]

2. there have been no timers found

as far as I've heard so far. An unlikely scenario that occurred to me is that the bombers may not have intended to blow themselves up but the bombs were blown up by remote devices by whomever orchestrated the plot.
The simplest explanation, however, is usually the best. They were probably just ordinary suicide bombers. It's amazing how quickly the British police have found suspects and explosives. Sure puts our justice department to shame, when Ashcroft rounded up nearly 1000 Muslims and found not a single terrorist among them.

[kenny blankenship]

4. If it's true that the bombers were arrested last year

then the speed with which the police have released information on their suspects isn't a shining example of their efficiency and cleverness.

It's an example like the WTC bombing in 1993 of how our intelligence services seem to be compulsively letting go people they know mean to set off bombs. For some reason. Which may or may not be a Connecticut pancake house.

[screembloodymurder]

8. First reports had timers and parts of timers

at multiple locations?

[imenja]

12. I think they were assuming cell phones were used as timers

though evidently that is very difficult in underground tunnels. It seems clear they didn't wear explosive vests, since the explosions emanated from the foot area of those they suspect were the bombers.

[screembloodymurder]

20. You're probably right, but it was reported that mechanical devices

were found.

"The Guardian has reported that Vincent Cannistraro, the former head of the CIA's counter-terrorism centre, told it that "mechanical timing devices" were recovered, as well as "two unexploded bombs". ABC News has also reported that U.S. authorities have informed it that British police have recovered timing devices and two unexploded bombs. Whilst no comment has been made on the discovery of timing devices, Scotland Yard has denied finding any unexploded bombs in the wreckage. Scotland Yard has described the explosives themselves as having been "conventional explosives", containing no secondary biological or chemical attack agents."

[sweetheart]

3. On new evidence something makes sense

The statement of the terrorists included the directions "north, south
east and west" in them. It is now apparent that one bomber rode the
tube east, one west, one took the bus to the south and one stayed at
the north point of departure.

As it turns, they came in from bradford, the north of england to
perpetrate their act of suicide bombing... and this would have been
from the north train station (kings cross).

one bomber went east, one west, one north and one south, to strike
fear in to the hearts of nobody. Or rather, the fear is nurtured indeed
in the hearts of those who can't believe or conscience how a british
born child could turn to such an immolation as representative of their
politics. How many other british children hate their society as much,
and what grounds will fertilize those seeds.

And will having identity cards or more immigration controls do anything
at all to solve a genuine problem of economic and social classism.

Ending the war on drugs would sort out quite a bit.
Ending illegal wars and invasions would sort out quite a bit.
Ending the tyrrany of white christiandom majoritism for equal
representation would as well sort out quite a bit.

But bliar won't have a bit of it.
The first would involved him being honourable.
The second would involve him admitting his criminal behaviour.
The third would involve proportional representation and just
electoral presence in the parliament for those oppressed minorities.

But as one can cynically expect, nothing will turn of it except a
call for more identity cards and more xenophobia.

[imenja]

6. the problem, I believe, lies in US/British middle east policy

rather than drugs or Christianity within the UK. Lots of people do drugs, especially in the US, and Christianity is far more oppressive here than in the UK. Radical islamicism provides an ideology that some even in Britain hold on to in order to express whatever angst besets them. Without oppressive policies in the middle east, and War in Iraq especially, disaffected British youth would find another way of expressing their discontent and the Arabs would have far fewer reasons for hating us to the point where they are willing to blow themselves up to protest our government's actions.

[CJCRANE]

16. I think Iraq was the last straw

which radicalized a small minority of the local disaffected youth.

But in general a lot of arabs and muslims love London and call it home, in fact apparently Edgeware Road were one of the bombs went off, is a favourite place of resident Iraqis and Lebanese arabs.

[sweetheart]

26. Christianity in government

Your point is well taken, however there is a difference between american
and british christianity. THe latter is a state religion, one in which
the monarch is the head of the church, in which "some" religions have
persons in the house of lords. This status quo suggests to young muslims
and other religious persons of non-christian basis, that they will never
ever be represented equally by their own government.

And this is tied to the classism of british society, where, without
proportional representation, 36% of the electorate gets to call itself
the majority whilst the majority has to sit about and take it up the
ass by being unrepresented by a power hungry party of white males
tuning the system to keep their historical power.

One of the first calls of the pollsters after this attacks, is for
tighter immigration controls and other bollocks.

British middle east policy is distinctly more just and less bias than
american policy, so i can hardly see that as a root problem... but being
occupied by your own government that permanently denies you equal
liberty (in the old meaning of inclusion in government), is a cause
for despair of the suicide bomber sort.

[beam me up scottie]

29. That is the best explanation I have ever heard

detailing the attraction of the ideology to urban youth.

Is it all right to use your post as a reference in future threads, Imenja ?

I have the feeling this will need to be repeated many times.

[Must_B_Free]

5. My opinion is that these were NOT suicide bombers

If you look at the tactic of suicide bombing, the intention is to demonstrate the psychology that the bomber has the resolve to sacrifice his life to deliver the bomb.

We see this in Godfather II: "What does that tell you? it tells me they could win"

So, part of the whole thing is for there to be witnesses to tell of seeing the bomber deliver the bomb.

Since this attack did not involve that element, there was no advantage to the bombers committing suicide in the process; they may as well have set off the bombs via cellphone just as they do in Iraq with the roadside IUDs.

Therefore, I have to speculate that these were not suicide bombs, regardless of what is being reported.

From a tactical standpoint, it would have been more logical to for the bombers to have used remote ignition and live to terrorize again.

If this were a suicide bombing, it would have been tactically to their advantage to leave a suicide tape to definitively demonstrate that there is an Al Queda presence in the UK that is able to brainwash these children into suicide bombing. THAT would have been scary and creepy.

[imenja]

10. there are tactical advantages to suicide bombings

One, they are far more reliable. Leaving packages lying around means greater opportunity for the bombs to be discovered. Also, when the bombers are dead, they can't inform police about what they know about the wider network of those involved. Think of how many young men commit suicide absent political goals. Convincing those boys to blow themselves up in furtherance of a Caliphate or some other political goal might not have been nearly as difficult as we might imagine.

[Must_B_Free]

15. Weren't unexploded bombs, in fact, found?

So that contradicts that suicide bombers are more reliable.

And under that scenario, that means that someone lost nerve and thus contradicts your assertion that "they can't inform police about what they know about the wider network of those involved"

[imenja]

18. not on the trains

explosives were found in the homes of the suspects and in the car they left outside of London. I've been watching BBC religiously and have heard nothing about unexploded bombs being found on the trains or bus. Unless there has been something new announced during the last two hours.

[Must_B_Free]

19. I heard unexploded bombs found before there even were suspects

It was the day of the bombing.

Maybe I am just mis-recalling the details...

[Minstrel Boy]

21. That was reported.

Later reports contradicted it.

Corrected, or scrubbed? I dunno.

[LibertyorDeath]

13. They relied on their ID papers surviving the blast & being found & linked

to them. That's what I'm supposed to believe. Well I don't believe it.

Your point makes a lot more sense.

"If this were a suicide bombing, it would have been tactically to their advantage to leave a suicide tape to definitively demonstrate that there is an Al Queda presence in the UK that is able to brainwash these children into suicide bombing. THAT would have been scary and creepy."

[Minstrel Boy]

14. IMHO that's a very strong argument

The psychology of suicide bombing does suggest these were remotely triggered.

[beam me up scottie]

25. Using the movie The Godfather and western logic to explain

why these were not suicide bombers is funny.

"If this were a suicide bombing, it would have been tactically to their advantage to leave a suicide tape to definitively demonstrate that there is an Al Quaeda presence in the UK that is able to brainwash these children into suicide bombing."

Do you have a source that demonstrates that this is their m.o. ?

[beam me up scottie]

9. Really ? When did they find timers ?

I just heard on BBC that they hadn't found any timing devices, but perhaps you know something they don't ?

[screembloodymurder]

11. I guess the story is changing.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/08/international/europe/08intel.html?

[beam me up scottie]

17. That's from July 8.

nt

[screembloodymurder]

23. Police "speculation"

I guess.

The Guardian has reported that Vincent Cannistraro, the former head of the CIA's counter-terrorism centre, told it that "mechanical timing devices" were recovered, as well as "two unexploded bombs". ABC News has also reported that U.S. authorities have informed it that British police have recovered timing devices and two unexploded bombs.

[imenja]

22. that was speculation

they thought there must have been timers used because the bombs all went off at nearly the same time. That July 8 report was not based on forensic evidence. It is of course still possible that they will find timers, but I think it's useful to consider the state of evidence at the point at which a story is released. The British police were always careful to say they did not have evidence indicating a particular kind of detonation, but journalists like a story and draw conclusions that aren't necessarily supported by existing evidence.

[screembloodymurder]

24. Yes

official "speculation". Alright then.

[beam me up scottie]

27. So at present, there are no timers and no indication that

there were timing devices used.

And, at present, there is no evidence or verifiable facts upon which to base an assumption that timers were used.

That's what I thought.

[screembloodymurder]

28. That's the story

as it now stands.

[katty]

30. uh, yea, you sure would-so far no 'note' was left stating

'we blew ourselves up for Allah."