O.K. Just had a conversation with a Christian Conservative neighbor.

[Maat]

One of my neighbors is from London (grew up there). Her kids were 1 hour away from going onto the transportation system, and missed the incident by a hair.

So, she was talking about her kids, who are over there, being somewhat shaken by the bombings.

Then she and I started talking about the reasons we were hated around the world.

I said I understood, especially after having just listened to Dahr Jamail on Democracy Now.

The other neighbor's sister, from South Carolina, piped up, "I had a husband who was over there. The Iraqis love us. We're building infrastructure for them ... blah .. blah .. blah." At that point, I just walked off after my kid, pretending I had to tend to her needs.

Answer me this, DUers, if you're in the military, you must have noticed where we are building the infrastructure - near the oil reserves. And I know, as a recent law graduate, about how any contracts signed with Saddam are now invalid, and, no doubt, we have signed contracts with 'the new government.' Miltary guys must have noticed these things. How do they come back and tell their wives this b.s.?


On edit:
You guys have to calm me down.

[DURHAM D]

1. Losing faith would mean losing face. n/t

[Maddy McCall]

3. Exactly.

[Straight Shooter]

5. You nailed it, Durham D. eom

[Jacobin]

11. They see it as their duty to be cheerleaders for the war

They don't like to think of their loved ones as doing what they are really doing....just chasing Iraqis around their own country shooting at them without knowing what the fuck is going on.

So they have a pollyanna story they tell themselves to stay sane and to try to make their pawn husband soldiers feel better about themselves.

[knowbody0]

2. it has been DRILLED into their brains.

to speak negatively of our Comander in Chief is forbidden. my fried just back from Iraq is the same way. Saddam was a brutal dictator, blah blah blah. it breaks my heart.

[B Calm]

4. It's too hard to face the fact they are fighting and dying in VAIN

[Maat]

6. Thanks to all you guys for your replies.

Because I am confused.

What she is saying does not jive with what I am seeing in pictures, and what I am reading.

[B Calm]

12. There are still some Korean War and Vietnam Vets to this day

that have a hard time facing the truth that both of those wars were fought in VAIN!

[FreedomAngel82]

36. Yes

I remember on the CSPAN coverage of the DNC convention last year on one of the days (I think day three maybe?) there was some guy who called in and he claimed to not like Kerry because of his anti-war protesting in the Vietnam days and thought it was a disgrace and therefore wouldn't vote for him or listen to anything he has to say. :eyes: Some people just don't get it. My dad asked me what I thought about Kerry protesting the war but never answered. In my book Kerry is a hero to me really. Some people will never understand or learn. It'll be interesting to hear what they say though years from now when Bush is gone. If they are active it's my understanding they can't say anything negative about Bush and stuff or they can get into trouble. :shrug: I wonder if it was that way during Clinton's years.

[XemaSab]

39. Korea was arguably not fought in vain

Our troops have protected the south koreans for all this time, and look at how poorly off the north is.

Disagree?

[B Calm]

41. The Korean War cost the lives of around 4 million people and we

still have a divided Korea.

[XemaSab]

45. true, true

I'm frankly pretty ignorant about it. Usually my history classes glossed over Korea somewhere between WW2, communists, and nam.

[hfojvt]

60. you give in too easily

just because of the 4 million figure? A divided Korea is better than a united Korea under Kim Jong Il, isn't it? Alot of the 4 million died trying to bring North Korean government to the entire peninsula. We stopped that. How is that in vain?

On the other hand, I am not sure if Vietnam is as bad off as North Korea. Has the DMZ helped to make North Korea what it is today - repressive and militaristic? Are they poorer than Vietnam, and if so, why?

[XemaSab]

62. Honestly

Like 'nam, it's hard to play historical woulda, coulda, shoulda.

[DURHAM D]

23. I know you know this, but - You create your own reality.

When faith (not fact) is the largest component of one's belief system it is necessary to see conflicting information as a test of that faith.

[ultraist]

7. I talked to a soldier in the DFW airport last week

He had just returned from Iraq and was going to have to go back again in a few weeks. He does NOT see any end in sight. According to him, things are NOT getting better over there. I asked him specifically, "is it getting better there?" He said and I quote, "NO. We just move them around from area to area." He certainly didn't try to say this quietly, even though he was standing in the ticket line with about 30 other soldiers, all of whom looked exhausted and stressed out. Many seemed to have very shaky hands. I wondered if they had them drugged up or it was from trauma. It was a very sad sight, indeed.

[Maat]

13. Spirit bless them!

Sometimes I think they tell their families things to make them feel better.

[ultraist]

27. I agree

Also, some of them are Bush supporters and believe the lies or at least parrot the lies.

It was really sad to see these young people in uniform, frazzled and exhausted. They all looked very sad. I cried when we walked away. It was really heartbreaking...one of the horrors of war.

[Maat]

29. And I feel helpless - as I know you must have.

There doesn't seem to be anything we can do.

Then I think, in the next thought, that we should keep trying to bring them home.

I don't know if it helps.

[FreedomAngel82]

37. Sad

:( Could be from stress and being so tired and over worked. :( I feel so horrible for these guys/girls. :cry:

[cpamomfromtexas]

44. Flights home

My husband went to Kuwait to fly a planeload of soldiers home a while back. He said the soldiers were very tense because every few minutes while they were in the terminal, soldiers here and there were told "get back here, you're not going home". He said that until they were over the water, no one said a word, then the whole plane erupted in whooping and hollering.

[Frances]

8. I have a good friend whose brother was killed in Vietnam

She said the exact same thing about that war. But since her brother died there, I wasn't about to contradict her, even though my community college vet students were telling me differently.

[AuntieM1957]

9. Maat

Perhaps her husband hangs onto the mistruth to keep from feeling the pain of mis-spending his time and energy in a faithless mission.

And she doesn't want to see the truth herself, perhaps. If she does, she and her kids are without a dad and mate for no good reason.

In any event, you already know ( I can tell from your post and your sig line) that when you let them push you to anger and indifference it shuts down the dialogue.

Patience and persistence - two very difficult things to maintain - are vital tools for winning this battle for hearts and minds.

Also necessary to keep the crazies from pulling us down with them.

Hang in there!

[Maat]

14. Well said, Auntie.

I agree.

[sendero]

19. If anyone on this planet...

... has the right to be in total denial about this war, it would be the troops and their families.

They have to deal with this day in and day out. The least we can afford them is the luxury of believing in it for now.

Trust me, there will be a time in the future when everyone is on the same page about this "war". Now is not yet that time.

[AuntieM1957]

25. Unfortunately, they don't all have the illusion intact

Too many see things as they are now. And still they have to say goodbye for the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th time to loved ones who are returning to hell.

I cry and pray for those families often - because I can't imagine greater pain than theirs.

[leesa]

59. Although I understand your point, their job is to protect the constitution

and the country from both external and INTERNAL threats. If they shut down their brains as they want to, how will they recognise the internal threat of BushCo?

[jedr]

10. How could anyone believe this sh*t;

everyday is just a stream of lies...fundies are scared of everything , that's why they need god to protect them and W "to be their daddy"

[Ready2Snap]

15. You almost had a conversation --

Next time let 'em rant for a bit, zero in on something that is an easily dismissable RW talking point
and quietly and calmly shred it.
Then pretend your Randi Rhodes and hit her with a flurry of questions and don't wait for answers.
With a little practice you'll be able to shut 'em up just by walking up. You gotta start fighting back.
Remember:
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -- Edmund Burke

[Maat]

16. Well, you have a point, Ready2Snap.

You see I am trained to debate.

But, I thought, these are my neighbors, and I have to get along because our kids are friends.

So, I let this one go.

[FreedomAngel82]

38. Maybe

since they are your friends and neighbors you can just be a friend to these people. Listen to their pain and heartbreak. Let them lean on you and maybe slowly bring things up to make them think and question. Are they friends with other soliders to have a network of people who can share their pain? Sometimes it's good to have someone who's going through something like you are or has been there to give advice and comfort.

[minerva50]

17. The soldiers live behind barricades

This article about Knight-Ridder reporters gives a good view of what's really going on: www.editorandpublisher
They explain that the troops don't really know what life is like for the Iraqis.

[Maat]

22. Wow, that was an incredible piece to read.

Thanks.

Spirit comfort that poor translator - she has to keep going, for her son's sake.

[SpaceCatMeetsMars]

43. That's what an acquaintance told my husband last summer

The guy had been over there with the National Guard. They were doing some business together and don't know each other beyond that, so just discussed the subject very briefly. My husband said, "What was it like over there?" and the guy said, "The military is pulling back behind barricades, it's getting more and more dangerous."

It seems like when different Vietnam vets describe their war experiences, they had many different ones depending on where they were and when they were there. Maybe it's the same with every war, we can only try to piece together some idea of what's going on as the vets begin to tell different experiences. God knows the media won't inform us!

[rickrok66]

18. Building infrastructure

I think there are two reasons for this. I am in the military. I can tell you that most soldiers actually did help to build infrastructure in Iraq. You have to see it from a soldier's point of view. His view of Iraq is from a platoon or company size unit of about 100 guys. His unit probably did help a village, a school, or an orphanage. What you get is a series of microcosms, but very few have a complete picture of the country.

Another issue is there is this email floating around that was written shortly after the "mission accomplished" speech. It lists all things that the military did to help build infrastructure. Unfortunately, it surfaces every few months as a new email, but the numbers never change. I think you can look it up on snopes.com.

Very few people in the military understand or have to deal with the contracting process, even though they may work side by side with contractors. Most of us are glad to have a breathing body to fill a slot, and not worry what company he or she comes from.

[Maat]

24. Thanks for your input. (n/t)

[annabanana]

32. thank you

We are always interested in getting the "straight poop" from people who have been there and can speak from experience.
Welcome to DU
:toast:

[comsymp]

20. Can't believe nobody has posted this yet

(except, ironically, Maat)

Bottom line: what do you think troops stationed there would tell their wives and kids!?

Should they tell the truth and cause ceaseless worry? Or should they, as husbands (usually), make up pretty little lies to keep their wives from worrying? I've had this conversation with my sister AND her husband, who is currently stationed... um... somewhere north of Baghdad.

FWIW, my sister knows the real deal, although (or therefore?) she has chosen to avoid as much news as possible. And, after being shaken up by having to fire on a particular *innocent* civilian, my BIL has stopped telling her about his experiences. It's a touchy prospect for military families.

EDITED FOR #$%@ HTML

[Maat]

26. What you say makes sense.

I figure that there are some wives who can obviously handle at least most of the truth; and there would be no point in lying to them, for they would find the truth out.

With some family, it is obvious that, not only could they not handle the truth, they probably just don't want to know it.

One of my friends listened to a military wife paint a rosey picture.

She then went straight to the military-man husband and said, "O.K. What's really going on there?" And he told her; I guess he just didn't want to tell his own wife the truth. But he couldn't lie to M, my friend, because he knows she reads the truth.

[comsymp]

34. Check your PM

And, similarly, my BIL is unable to lie to my sister... partly because she knows him too well, and partly because she's a turbobitch who knows him too well~ :evilgrin:

[DanCa]

21. My dad was a career Marine DI

We had a policy in the house. We never asked him about his day. We could tell by how much he drank or by his mood but he never talked about his day good or bad. I really cant say whats going with why people are telling falsehoods to thier wives unless they dont want thier spouses to worry. Please have a nice evening and try to feel better. Have a cold one and relax. Life's to short to worry about a conservative.

[Maat]

28. Thanks.

I just don't feel that we can help certain people see the truth; they will never want to.

It's not worth ruining my family's evening over it.

[DanCa]

30. I feel your pain

I finally decided to cut loose "friends" who just repeat right wing talking points over and over again. Its a tough decision but if they wont respect your point of view than your much better off without them in your life .

[lildreamer316]

53. Quote of the Day!!

"Life's to short to worry about a conservative."

[Maat]

56. That's a great quote.

I have to take care of my own family; I just have no time to argue with conservatives right now.

[donsu]

61. but we must worry as they have taken over our country

nt

[galloglas]

31. When she will learn...

Miltary guys must have noticed these things. How do they come back and tell their wives this b.s.?

That fine lady from the Palmetto State may realize it was b.s. if he comes back in a box the next time.

[ktowntennesseedem]

33. Conversations w/Christian conservatives are impossible.

They speak and your blood pressure goes up while your brain says "what the f*ck?" Then you speak and unless you sound like James Dobson all your words either go in one ear and out the other, or else go WAY over their heads and their underused brains.

It just seems like a conversation sometimes, but believe me, it isn't.

[NMMNG]

35. That type of person always has to alter reality to fit their schema

So their brain doesn't blow up :nuke:. If this involves denying scientific research because of what the Bible says, so be it. If it means turning their back on their own flesh and blood because Jim Dobson says gays are evil, too bad. If it involves making excuses for the fact that the leader they voted for is committing genocide, that's better than admitting they made a huge mistake at the polls last November.

[cassandra uprising]

40. Funny, I was just having a conversation with a fellow co-worker today

who is an enlisted Air Force reservist. I don't know how the subject got brought up, but it did and she mentioned how the protesters really bothered her and how she was afraid that that the local liberal college kids would might one day see her in her uniform and dump paint on her. I can't remember what she was asking me specifically, or how we were talking about the war, a topic which I had tried to avoid since I started working there,

but when she mention how the *protesters really make her angry and how they don't really get it and it insults her*

I asked,

well, how do you show support for the troops while not supporting an illegal war?

and she went on about how, 'we have to be there to help the Iraqi people and we can't pull out' and further proceeded to not answer my question.

We're both waitresses and so our conversation was stopped abruptly by the many demands of the glorious food industry.

This is a really nice girl. She loves her country like the rest and is willing to put her learned dogma before her capable brains. She's going to be in Afghanistan some time this year. For what? Because that is what you do. It frustrated and hurt me that I couldn't have an authentic conversation with her. The whole thing fucking blows.

[Maat]

46. Yes, that's exactly what I mean - she didn't answer your question.

And it was illegal, in many ways; illegal, unnecessary, immoral and unjust.

It's just not true that we can 'convert' them to our side by citing facts and concepts.

Thanks for the replies.

[Mnemosyne]

42. A soldier with 3 tours of Iraq was at my Mom's

yesterday and told her there are WMD's and planes buried all over Iraq!
She now insists that since he's been there I am wrong about no WMD's!! Nothing I said could change her mind because "he's been there and knows more than you."

My daughter has been dating a Marine Corporal going to Iraq in 3 weeks and she informed me that "We are fighting the terrorists in Iraq to keep them from coming here."!!! My jaw dropped to the floor.

Everything I have showed/taught my mother and daughter wiped out as the result of "love" and "experience".:banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

I told my daughter that if she and her Corp. want to have children, he better freeze some sperm before he goes, cause it's going to glow in the dark when he gets back.

Argh!! This is so sad.

I understand their need to not feel used by our government, but why do they keep spreading lies to back up idiot boy?

[B Calm]

47. Damn, if he knows where they buried WMD's why in hell

didn't he tell someone?

[Disturbed]

48. Millions of Amerikans have a mindset that..

cannot be changed because all contradictory info that they come upon is rejected immediately. They don't think this through, merely reject it. They will twist everything to fit that mindset if they are challenged by anyone presenting what their mindset has fixed upon.

[B Calm]

49. After the first few days of the war, it should have been clear

to the brainwashed neo cons that there weren’t any weapons of mass destruction. What is the reason for having WMD’s in the first place, if you’re not going to use them against an invading army? That should have been a wake up call to the wilfully ignorant, but no instead they chose to believe even a more ridiculous argument that Saddam moved and buried them. Why would, he had moved and buried them? Was he saving them for a rainy day? Using common sense is not a right-wing trait!

[Maat]

55. Well-put.

Lakoff keeps telling us how to talk to them; but when I try, it is impossible - they are spouting absolutely nonsensical stuff in an effort to maintain cognitive stability.

I give up!

[Mnemosyne]

51. That's what I said to my Mom. No answer. n/t

[Maat]

57. That's a great line, Vickiss.

"He'd better freeze some sperm before he goes, cause it's going to glow in the dark when he gets back."

LOL!

I hope you made her think.

[Mnemosyne]

58. Unfortunately it did make her think.

Now they are talking about her getting pregnant BEFORE he leaves!! ARGH!!! She only met him a couple weeks ago and spent a few hours talking and many hours on phone after he left for Ft. Benning. She suffers from PTSD (diagnosed, but untreated, refuses) and doesn't always think clearly. Now I'm "critical and un-supportive!". Wicked witch of the North, that's me!!
Kids, can't beat 'em, can't live without them! LOL No, I never beat her, maybe I should now!! She's 26, but I think I can take her, right!

I thought I raised her to have some common sense! There is very little of it anymore. Maybe we should rename it "uncommon sense"!

[dogday]

50. I quess it is going to take them drinking some of the water

with bacteria and feces in it to understand the reality of Iraq.

[TrogL]

52. The reason the contracts with Saddam were invalidated

is because they weren't with US oil companies.

[Maat]

54. That's exactly what I'm saying (n/t).