Hmmm...After two years suddenly the Plame case is leaking like a sieve?

[kohodog]

It makes me wonder about the sources of all this new information, or if it is speculation being planted as fact. None of it bodes well for Rove, but I suspect it may be part of a cover up to keep it from going all the way to the top.

Thoughts?

[marmar]

1. The gossip seems to be ...

that he fought to keep it hidden until after the election, which he did, but he knew this was coming.

[Jane Austin]

23. Rove? Bush? Fitzgerald?

Who are you talking about?

BTW, your phrase "The gossip seems to be" makes me wary. It sounds too much like Fox News' "Some say . . . ."

I hope you will clarify your post.

Thanks.


(Edited for punctuation.)

[marmar]

36. Rove...

and the gossip is mainly from listening to Air America. Sorry, I can't offer any more specificity than that... but I'm not putting together a newscast.

[Jane Austin]

43. Thanks. That's helpful.

It might be more clear to say you heard something on Air America than to say "Gossip seems to be".

Thanks again for your answer.


(Edited to add text.)

[BurtWorm]

2. The only reason the media sat up and paid it attention

is that one of their own got sent to prison over it. If the Miller case hadn't been resolved as it was, they'd be ignoring it as usual.

[skids]

3. It was successfully stalled waiting for Cooper/Miller

The case lurched to a stop while Miller/Cooper were appealing.

[kohodog]

5. It's the sudden number of "leaks" that have me wondering

Fitzgerald has run an incredibly tight ship for two years, including the time the Miller/Cooper appeals were pending. And up until today there has been litte information (other than the Time emails) coming out from behind the scenes. Suddenly today we're hearing all kinds of things,: Rove/Novak; Bush knew in October 2002; articles are springing up all over the place.

So are these coming from the GJ, Fitzgerald's office or from those who have spoken to the GJ?

[madrchsod]

7. no they are not coming from his office...

they may come from those who have spoken from the grand jury BUT there is no way to verfiy what they said...do not believe what anyone says at this point because the grand jury hasn`t heard all the testimony..it`s all up to them not anyone else to decide.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

8. And which ones are true, if any?

The reality is that some "leaks" are contradicting others. Someone isn't telling the truth, that much is obvious.

[skids]

14. That's due to media pressure.

...it is much more intense than it has been up to now. Reporters are looking for anyone at all with insider info -- stenographers, clerks, witnesses, people close to the jurors. There is a huge pressure to get even the slightest detail out of this.

And of course there is also huge pressure by the winger noise machine to do some of their own sniffing around looking for something, anything, to say that will make a few more of the people casually following this story fall back into their slumber of apathy. They want this story ignored by as many inattentive people as possible (effectively they are trying to say "nothing to see here folks, move along") so that when the indictments start flying, the grounds of the case will not be widely known by the public. That causes confusion, which gives them an opportunity to try to salvage the administration in the court of public opinion by fabricating a huge conspiracy theory that will have their base worked up about the "CIA plot to overthrow the President."

[kenny blankenship]

28. Mostly they're from Rove's own lawyer

trying to plant his preferred version of the story and mostly to jump start the CIRCUS with cooperative media personalities spinning to maximum effect.

Nothing like sowing CONFUSION and propaganda among potential jurors to sway the outcome of a trial. And how can you sow confusion if you're the only one leaking? Leak contradictory versions to different media outlets and get them and the public fighting over which version must be true (when neither of them is the truth most likely). If Rove's part in the story was over truly over THERE'D BE NO REASON FOR HIS LAWYER TO LEAK ANYTHING.

[blm]

39. I damn Miller and Cooper for that because alot would've come out BEFORE

the election. I am certain that Ted Olsen stepped in to represent Miller just to make sure that he held it up as long as possible.

Think back, all the evidence in the case had already been investigated before the Dem convention, but Miller and Cooper dragged out their roles for almost a full year.

[madrchsod]

4. there are no leaks from fitz`s office

the "leaks" are nothing but spin from the desperate. fitz is already at the "top" but whether he can find enough to charge anyone with the laws on the books is the important thing.

[Inland]

12. Exactly. The USA office is mum

contrast with Starr who was leaking everything, the dirtbag. Fitzgerald is doing exactly the right thing.

It's not his fault that the only investigation is a secret one. That's our system of criminal law. It's congresses and Bush's fault that there isn't any public accounting of fact.

[ewagner]

15. Fitzgerald hasn't risen to the bait yet

All these leaks are coming fast and furious and Fitzgerald has not even come forward to say "The leaks didn't come from our office." Or even to say if the leaks are true or false or even to come out and condemn the leaks....silence is golden.

[FreedomAngel82]

24. I agree

He's doing the right thing. He's right to not talk to the press. Why is Rove's lawyer not being silent? The White House claims not to talk about it cause it's an on going investigation but Rove's lawyer is speaking. :eyes:

[Inland]

37. I like it, and it's the only way consistent with justice.

I don't want to see the prosecutor trying crimes in the press, like that dirtbag Starr. That's not the American way.

That doesn't change just because congress and the president are happy to let the leaker go or because the RNC is spreading lies.

[FreedomAngel82]

21. I think so too

Not even Cooper gave much out. He's not until he prints his article. I think all this is coming from the same sources: RNC's people.

[ewagner]

6. Let's go through the looking glass

for a moment.....

This has been bothering me all morning and you've touched the heart of the problem in your post.

Yes. The leaks are starting after Fitzgerald has kept the lid on tight for two years.

Yes. It's also quite possible that the leaks aren't coming from Fitzgerald's office at all. It's quite possible that the most recent leak (the one the NYT is running with) came directly from Rove's lawyer, or, at the very least, a Rove apologist.

Yes. It is also true that we're in the middle of a blizzard of Republican obfuscation and disinformation. It's almost blinding and the repubs have open-access to the the MSM to spout it.

But what purpose does this PR blitz serve?

After all, if Fitzgerald is doing his job well, there WILL BE INDICTMENTS. Indictments of whom? We don't know yet. Fitzgerald has done such a great job of playing the cards close to his vest that we can speculate until the cows come home but in truth we have no real hard evidence as to who's head will be on the platter.

So if Fitz is doing his job, what good will all the PR spinning do?

I'm having trouble figuring that out. If Rove and the WH criminals think they are playing a game of chess with Fitzgerald right now they are mistaken. Fitz will do his job independently of what the public opinion of Rove, Miller, or Novak or anybody else in this case happens to be...

The spinners, liars and apologists are at best only buying the principals a little bit of time until the Grand Jury finishes it's work. After that, they will need a whole new plan of attack; probably as another poster has suggested the new plan of attack will be to attack Fitzgerald himself.

[madrchsod]

9. they would be wise not to attack fitz...

he`s brought to many really bad guys to justice. they can`t touch him and they know it.

[writes2000]

11. They're doing damage control with the public

Rove, Bush and the Repubs are taking such a beating that they have to try to stall out the story for now. The bigger it gets, the more pressure they are under to respond now.

They never imagined the story would get this kind of play BEFORE the investigation ended. Now, every detail will be top story news.

See, how desperate the Repub talking heads are screaming "Story's OVER!" They are crying for this thing to go away.

[Jane Austin]

25. "So if Fitz is doing his job, what good will all the PR spinning do?"

It keeps their base energized and rabid.

It can salvage some of those donations.

It will save some of their congressional seats.

But mostly, this is for their base. Just more "evidence" for them that they are put-upon and victimized by whatever bogeyman they are pushing that week.

[kenny blankenship]

40. The grand jury has yet to deliver indictments

they can be appealed to by partisan frenzy. That's what personal statements of support from Laura Bush and George W. Christ are about. They are broadcast out to the base to remind anyone who's a hardcore Republican what's at stake for the Party and by putting their personal blessings on Rove, to remind the faithful that whatsoever you do to Karl Rove, you do to George and sweet Laura.
If his face is round and white, you can't indict.

The GJ is just people chosen at random from voter lists. They aren't screened for biases. Beyond that, if the appeal doesn't work on GJ members and an indictment is lodged against Karl-Heinz, or other faces from the WH, there will be a jury pool to be picked and it's important to Luskin and the WH to appeal to their biases as well. Better start now while they can do it without appearing to be trying to sway the outcome of a trial.

[Jane Austin]

42. "The GJ is just people chosen at random from voter lists."

Are you sure about that?

Grand jurors have to be rather intelligent and are often the leading lights of a community.

[kenny blankenship]

47. "Blue Ribbon" Grand Juries

may be used in civil matters. That's only in state court systems. In Federal courts, civil matters cannot be addressed through the Grand Jury process. In criminal matters, in both state or federal courts, I believe the Grand Jury pool always must drawn be the same as the regular pool for jurors, according to the decision(s) of the U.S. Supreme Court and US Code. I can't direct you to a specific SCOTUS case that sets that down as a rule, but there is whole a succession of cases going back to Strauder v. West Virginia (1879) that establish that the right of a defendant to a jury of his peers allows for appeals of a conviction on the grounds of an unfair composition of a jury. Subsequent cases extended this to grand juries as well, even extending into state courts. In that spirit, United States Code Title 28, Part V, Chapter 121, Sections 1861-1863 establishes the requirement of "randomness" for jury selection plans (both grand and petit or trial juries) which must be filed by all state and district courts.

Grand Juries sit for longer periods so retirees, housewives (fabled beings of yore), or people who don't need to work everyday will tend to be channeled into the GJ pool by virtue of their sheer availability. On the other hand grand juries aren't sitting convened day after day usually but convened when the prosecutor has something new for them to hear. But there can be no special selection made for race, religion, gender, or education or profession, or income or other correlates of social rank or achievement.

In state court civil matters that is not true since there are no defendants.

There is one allowance for guaranteed quality in jury pool selection created by section 1863 of the above referenced law: no officer from any branch of government, local, state or federal, may be included in a jury.

[Jane Austin]

48. Thanks, Kenny.

Very informative, and it's always nice to learn something new. :)

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

10. Sidney Blumenthal says the NY Times leak is Rove's Lawyer's doing

Blumenthal is on Democracy Now this morning and says Rove is in panic mode and that his lawyer is the one who spoke to the New York Times. According to Blumenthal, the notion that it was Novak who told Rove about Plame, instead of vice-versa, is a planted, orchestrated leak.

[kohodog]

19. er, leak, lie or both???

Whether Rove told Novak or Novak told Rove still puts Rove in an untennable position.

The wheels are finally coming off. To me all these new "relevations" smack of desperation.

Meanwhile Fitzgerald is compiling the facts.

[Garbo 2004]

22. Yup, who else would know intimately about Rove's testimony and be

quacking to the press about it? And have the press take the source as *cough* credible or at least in a position to know? (Stenography again?) Lushkin, perhaps already to his client's detriment lol, is a talker. Who does this "latest" info aid in terms of the public "message?"

Other leaks in the past to the media have come from unnamed attorneys to unnamed witnesses. So this latest stuff I figure is from Rove's lawyer or others on his legal team doing damage control.

[FreedomAngel82]

26. Interesting

I'll have to watch that interview.

[BuyingThyme]

13. The Bush Family's media operatives are trying to steer the story.

The leaks are all intended to steer the investigation away from the little team of criminals who lied this country into war.

That little team is headed by Cheney and includes Ahmed Chalabi and Judith Miller.

They have to keep the story away from Cheney.

[kohodog]

16. Bingo!

Cheney will sacrifice Rove to save his own skin, but I wonder if Bush will be willing to sacrifice Rove. This affair goes right to the top and they are throwing everything they can at this hoping something will help them. This is getting quite interesting indeed.

[BuyingThyme]

18. This investigation has gone 2 years and has another 2 to go.

Everything we're seeing is aimed at avoiding an executive meltdown.

We are not witnessing reality.

[Jane Austin]

27. Can you clarify this or give some links?

Thanks.

[BuyingThyme]

31. What you are seeing is all being orchestrated by the Bushes.

There's no links; it's up to you to see for yourself.

These are the same people who lead you to war based on lies. Leading you away from the legitimate issues in the Plame case is a cakewalk for them.

[Jane Austin]

32. It's up to me to draw informed conclusions.

I was hoping you could back up your opinions with something so I could do something other than nod or shake my head.

[BuyingThyme]

34. What "opinions" are those?

Are you under the impression that the DOJ investigator is orchestrating all of these silly leaks?

Come on over to reality.

[Jane Austin]

41. You're still shooting from the hip, I'm afraid.

I do not, nor have I ever suggested, that the DOJ investigator is orchestraing any leaks.

I think I'll avoid your "reality". It strikes me as not particularly fact-based.

[hippiegranny]

45. cakewalk?

Oh you mean like Iraq? Even the mighty can fall if they overplay their hand. I am praying this is the case here.

[DURHAM D]

17. I wonder about someone at Justice. The press would think

that someone at Justice naturally would have inside information although not serving directly on the prosecution team. Justice, under Bush, is a patronage organization.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

20. It would be just like Rove to plant a mole in Fitzgerald's team

Whether one of the assistant attorneys or a staff member with access to the files, I'm sure there have been attempts to get someone planted there in a position to keep Rove et al. up to date.

[Jane Austin]

29. "It would be just like Rove to plant a mole in Fitzgerald's team"

If he did that and Fitzgerald discovered it, I'd like to sell tickets to what would follow for Rove.

Popcorn and Junior Mints, too. :)

[The Backlash Cometh]

30. Most peculiar was how Novak's shows were mysteriously canceled

simultaneously.

[kohodog]

33. Please elaborate

I'd love th o see that scum sucker off the air!

[The Backlash Cometh]

35. Crossfire and I believe Capital Gang were canceled,

weren't they?

[librechik]

38. yes indeed! those 2 rotting corpses were shelved

soon after being butched and wrapped in plastic by Jon Stewart!

[Imagevision]

44. Two years of Bush/Cheney stonewalling - remember 9-11 investigation

Bush/Cheney ommitted 28 pages from report not to be made public until AFTER the election!!

[yurbud]

46. they are trying that lame "reporters told Rove" angle, but it aint working

I can't believe that's their big cover up they took this long to cook up.

If it is, polls are so overwhelmingly against Rove, that even if it flies in court, it won't fly in the court of public opinion.


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