ENOUGH with the fatalism already!!!

[Mythsaje]

The voting machines are an issue, yes.

But they're not the ONLY issue. They're not everywhere, and there's a good chance they never will be--at least not in the form they're in now.

I realize this was Andy's baby, and I applaud him for his efforts in this regard, as well as all of you who have helped with this issue.

But the voting machines aren't a 'carte blanche, get your guy elected forever' card. Not when you consider the massive voter dissatisfaction that's beginning to show in this country. Not when you consider that even people who aren't particularly political are beginning to wake up to the fact that these Repuglicans are as corrupt and twisted as a pack of rabid hyenas.

The Corporate Media is starting to see it, and starting to throw off their fear and apathy...with every story that shows how wrong this administration is, how corrupt the Republicans, more of the "swing" voters and the generally uninterested are realizing how deep into the alligator pile we're getting.

If the Democrats don't make a CONCERTED effort to connect with these voters--to show how they can make a difference and be a party of the people--none of this WILL matter. The "we can't win if they control the voting machines' crowd is, unfortunately, acting AGAINST our best interests here. We have to figure out how to dismantle the machine program, YES! But we also have to reach the millions of voters who now understand what voting Republican MEANS. And fatalism is NOT helping...it's draining energy away from the things we can do to make a difference on both fronts.

We need to support the politicos (Conyers and Dean, to name a couple) who seem to understand the dangers inherent in the voting machines and give them a chance to raise the level of awareness through effective campaign strategies during the mid-terms.

Take heart! They don't control everything, and if people turn out in large enough numbers during the mid-terms, there's no way they'll be able to shave or conjure enough votes to pull their asses out of the garbage disposal.

We need constructive, positive ideas to reach out with, not sorry "we're doomed" scenarios.

Have YOU reached out to an undecided/disinterested voter today?

[ElsewheresDaughter]

1. i disagree.....in my opinion BBV is the #1 issue

[Mythsaje]

2. It's a biggie,

no doubt. But without the Corporate Media or support in Congress (which we'll never get if we don't animate the Congresscritters) all the activism against the boxes are going to continue to fall on deaf ears.

They're a big deal in the Presidential races, but, at least for now, they're not widespread enough to affect many congressional races in the mid-terms. And, assuming that the Democrats can reach out and get more congressional seats, we can target the voting machines during the time between the mid-terms and the Presidential election. Not only CAN we, but we must.

The mid-terms have to be the most important thing right now, or else the fatalists are right and we are seriously screwed.

[nashville_brook]

7. this argument was used RE plame leaking in 2003

well, damn... the media has dropped this, so the best we can do is focus on putting up the strongest presidential candidate and win in 2004.

but what happened?

the wheels of law continued to turn with interviews, legal briefs and investigations. lots and lots of lawyers have put in thousands of hours at the behest of people who were injured and seek the remedy of the law.

same with the election issues. news about legal statements and small victories and setbacks in the ongoing battle have gone unnoticed b/c the headlines just aren't sexy -- well, except for that one about the stolen computers and blackberry for the Dem headquarters.

when you talk to the average joes at the farmers market or the line at the DMV or your email list -- no one whispers about the next new strong DEMOCRAT to vote for. they are worried and pissed and totally confused with our leaders spouting outrageous lies at every turn. even willy loman would see thru the whoppers being told about the election, 911, 7/7, plame/rove, tom delay, etc, et al. what really frightens people is when they see even the dems running from reality as in Hillary working on that stupid grand theft auto non-issue with mr joementum.

we gotta throw our lines in deeper water if we want to catch any fish in 2006.

[marions ghost]

10. Ditto

well said nashville_brook: "we gotta throw our lines in deeper water..." Yeah, it's gonna take more than just trying to convince people to vote for our side--there is a crisis of public confidence that is quite profound.

[nashville_brook]

14. i've twisted arms for years to get people to the polls

the number one reason why people resist: my vote won't count. this has been the case since 1984 when i first got involved in elections. NOW, it's like people are sick and tired of being played for a fool. no way are they going to go to the polls -- wait in line -- take off from work -- there's a sense of fool me once... won't get fooled again.

[GreenPartyVoter]

17. Agreed. It's at

the top of my elections reform list.

http://timeforachange.bluelemur.com/electionreform.htm

[marions ghost]

3. you are asking us to blindly accept that

"there's no way they'll be able to shave or conjure enough votes.." = Famous Last Words. Fact is that unauditable BBV has been sold to 30% of the country's voting districts. Most of the others with paper ballots rely on inaccessible central tabulators that can be easily hacked. There is not enough transparency at present to ensure that ANY future election cannot be manipulated to change the outcome. This is fact, not fatalism. It's very hard to sell "voting" when you know you may be asking someone to do something you yourself don't have much faith in.

However we DO have to work on two fronts--for voting reform and for voter turn-out. These are two distinct fronts, and one is not more pressing than the other. So far, vote manipulation and disenfranchisement is always seen as a minor factor in elections. We are saying it has to be addressed, and made equally important as turn-out.

[Mythsaje]

4. If you go out of your way

to convince people that their votes WON'T count, you undermine the effort for voter turnout.

Voter turnout and the election of Democratic representatives during the mid-terms next year are the ONLY chance I can see of getting us past the black box issue. Telling people their votes won't count IS HELPING to disenfranchise them before they ever leave for the polls...before they even consider it.

It's counter-productive. Period.

[marions ghost]

11. So we should shut up...

about voting issues--seems to be what you're saying. I don't think that's going to happen as the horse is (finally) out of the barn. At the same time we also need to support progressive candidates who we hope are going to clean up the election system. Could be synergistic.

Those who are concerned about multiple election abuses (despite the media blackout) probably aren't going to stop voting, since they know that won't help matters. Those who are oblivious to the issues...probably will remain oblivious. I don't see this as a big problem. It's a bigger problem to take our eyes off the exposure of the Big Lie of free and fair elections in America.

[Mythsaje]

12. I never said that...

I just don't want to see people throwing their hands up and saying--"if we dont' fix this none of the rest matters!"

It ALL matters. We have to shore up the broken pieces of the system and try to get the black box voting thing taken care of the only way it's going to be taken care of--by putting people in office who give a damn.

[nashville_brook]

8. and here's what really bugs me when pitting 2006 against voting reform:

max cleland.

it was the interim election where they had their first success with the new system. it's a lot easier to target state elections in the post-competing daily newspaper world. there isn't competition for news on the local level like there used to be. it's evolving and there's little points of light -- but it's a different world than in the 70s when even little towns had a morning paper and an afternoon competitor.

look at the exit polls in clelands loss. it foreshadowed 2004.

[Lecky]

5. You are 100% correct n/t

[nashville_brook]

6. i totally agree that fatalism isn't productive

but ignoring significant issues isn't productive either. the really maddening thing is that what stands in the way is *perception.* election fraud isn't on the radar b/c the media won't take it seriously... b/c people who advocate these issues are easily put down using the laziest of dismissive pseudo-arguments -- the horse laugh. the tin-foil defense.

given that it's a matter of perception -- and somewhat of a Framing War we are fighting -- it's real demoralizing when fellow dems blame fair elections advocates for bringing down the party. this goes double for attacks on 911 researchers.

i think it's a sociological phenomena -- like, "my issue is more important than your issue." true believers require focus on "their" issues b/c theirs are by definition the crux of the biscuit.

if we are to evolve this, we need to recognize illusion that they are mutually exclusive.

apply the entreprenurial model for success: cultivate diversity, creativity and an overall value on enjoyment in the project. let people OWN their piece of the project. facilitate -- don't dictate.

[Mythsaje]

9. They're ALL important

and a different tactic needs to be used to address each one. Democratic candidates have to get their voices out there, addressing the issues. The investigations need to go on into election fraud. The media needs to be reformed. The lies from this administration need to be spotlighted.

The Democrats are like a bunch of pagans--organizing them is a lot like herding cats. Everyone wants their own issue to be 'front and center' and that takes away from any coordinated effort to address the big picture problem. The Republicans are in control and they're willing to do anything (including lie, cheat, and steal) to stay there.

[marions ghost]

13. well...

I agree that we need leadership, a lack that I think Howard Dean is trying to address. I don't think this lack of coordination among us has anything to do with people wanting their own issue to be "front and center." People will naturally gravitate to what they feel they can best work on. Doesn't mean they don't get the big picture. The 'cats' analogy is just too condescending. Right now we're doing the best we can with what we've got. Democrats generally are not willing to use rightwing tactics to become super-organized based on a set of one-size-fits-all lies (excuse me, talking points). If you have any concrete suggestions about how Democrats can better organize, put them out by all means. But it doesn't really do any good to browbeat people who have their hands full.

[nashville_brook]

15. here's my morning thought on this

remember the Brooks Brothers Brigade that was flown to Ft Lauderdale during the 2000 elections to pitch a big temper tantrum? i've noticed that this is the main emotional cue that works on repubs.

recently in TN a rightwing radio guy played pied piper to a bunch of middle-aged, SUV-driving white men who haven't had a liscence to throw a temper tantrum since their frat pulled down the goal post when their team won homecoming.

these guys are looking for a reason to rampage. like that Sweet song -- Teenage Rampage.

now -- you're still with me right? :) -- i think what gets DEMS off the couch isn't the promise of being able to throw a public temper tantrum. that really turns us off. if head-to-head political involvement involves pitching a hissy, we don't want any part of it.

what do we want? what would light a fire under our fannies?

i think it's brother/sisterhood. i think it's righteous solidarity. good old fashioned community pride -- like in the civil rights struggles. or in the pre-war No Blood For Oil marches. We want to be friends. we want to stand with our friends -- our people -- and peacefully raise consciousness and BELONG TO THE FAMILY.

i guess this is what bugs me about the "quasi-professional politico" scene. i can't deal with territorial pissing. i don't want to be part of that revolution and i KNOW i can't sell that message to MY people. my people respond to BUILDING COMMUNITY -- to being part of a something uplifting and transformative -- at least as transformational as the music scenes we come from.

as soon as we get a whiff of being used for someone's agenda. as soon as the vision dims to exclude The Family of "Man," -- we turn off. we don't give a crap about getting whatever local progressive candidate elected to Metro or the State House because that's where this inauthentic, territorial, bad-faith, bogus, lame political suicide is most rampant.

it's why i spend most of my time on macro-poltics, deep politics, and cultural issues (like living a good life). this is who I AM, this is who my friends are. this is my generation. this was the revolution that quietly happened while clinton was being impeached -- lots of young people were busy running their own businesses, putting real, evolved transformational politics to use. we became the revolution. and when we brush shoulders with this old-skool, paleo-democratic territorial caniptions -- we're like -- dang. i think i have some painting to do.

[The Magistrate]

16. That Is True, Sir

Getting people to the polls, en masse and angry, is the key: it will swamp out fraud....

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[crispini]

18. Agree / disagree:

On the one hand I DO think that we have to do as much as we can, on state and federal levels, to reform and improve our voting systems. It's an ongoing effort.

On the other hand, I agree that the people who knee-jerk squawk about how, "Nothing matters until we fix the voting systems," are 1) extremely irritating and 2) wrong. Honestly, it's almost turning into a Godwin's Law of DU, you get into some discussion about our prospects for 2006 and some naysayer hops into the thread with the Ultimate Trump Card designed to cut off all discussion: "None of it will matter unless we fix the voting machines." I agree, it's stupid and it's over simplistic -- and I say this as someone who was involved with my state's effort to fix our system (which bill, unfortunately, died in committee and now we have to wait 2 years to try again, but that's reality.)