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Conservativesux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 01:29 PM
Original message
Police to hold random checkpoints
http://www.thereporter.com/news/ci_2850561

Police to hold random checkpoints

The Reporter

Vacaville, California

07/10/2005

The Vacaville Police Department plans to conduct checkpoints throughout the remainder of the year, the agency said. The checkpoints will be conducted at random locations throughout the city. They will be directed at those impaired by alcohol or a controlled substance, those driving on a suspended license, or with no driver's license at all.

The program is funded in part by a grant from the Office of Traffic Safety and is coordinated by the Traffic Section of the Vacaville Police Department.

For more information, call 449-5282

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Theres-a Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 01:31 PM
Response to Original message
1. Kind of like a fundraiser
Don't they get to give alot of expensive tickets?
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 01:31 PM
Response to Original message
2. What's YOUR opinion of this?
Edited on Mon Jul-18-05 01:32 PM by blondeatlast
They've done this in my area for more than a decade.

I'll be happy to offer my opinion, but you started this, so you first.
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NorCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Ways to catch people doing something
that they normally wouldn't be able to. If you're wasted and driving, you deserve to go to jail. If you get caught because you had 1 beer, or 1 joint, at a random sobriety check point, it's bullshit. All this is, is another way to make their quotas, and hassle some law-abiding citizens in the process.
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evolved Anarchopunk Donating Member (188 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #3
9. mmm weed, had to make me think of weed did you?
well thank you. :smoke:
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NorCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #9
24. I'm always involved in marijuana threads
and I haven't figure out why :D Maybe it's the pot, don't know for sure though.
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crikkett Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. Mirth Control n/t
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Conservativesux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-19-05 02:12 AM
Response to Reply #2
46. "Please hand me your papers". Straight out of the USSR and Nazi
Germany.

I spit on anyone who thinks these checkpoints are a good idea!

Your turn, now.
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Union Thug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 01:33 PM
Response to Original message
4. Papers Please. n/t
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AX10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 01:33 PM
Response to Original message
6. Gee, will they have their Terrorist Guns......
Edited on Mon Jul-18-05 01:36 PM by AX10
err, I mean Taser Guns on hand? :eyes:

If your are on drugs or drunk and behind the wheel of a car, you are going to be arrested (and should be). However, this may be used to search cars randomly too. It's two sided. If they want to meet some beauracratic quota, they could start giving out tickets and warnings for the most mundane things.

"papers please"....ring a bell?
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donsu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. you betcha
nt
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AX10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. What do you think of the taser gun?
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BiggJawn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 01:39 PM
Response to Original message
8. "Ausweis, Bitte...."
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mtnester Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 01:51 PM
Response to Original message
11. Here in Ohio this has been going on forever, AND
Edited on Mon Jul-18-05 01:52 PM by mtnester
has been supported by the courts.

I don't like it, but then again, I do not drive drunk or with contraband, etc. AND, since the courts have given it the Okey Dokey, I cannot even really DO much about it. The news stations usually announce in the morning or at the latest on the evening news where they are going to be, so if you get busted by one...:shrug:
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AX10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. It's nice of the media to report that.
I'll keep an ear out in my area too.

Only twice have a been stopped at checkpoint, in every case, they would stop everyone(sobriety). I always turn on the inside lights in the car.
In each case the officers were very formal and polite. Nothing came of them. Still, I believe it is a violation of the US Constitution.
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mtnester Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. I agree with you, however, I believe if not Ohio, then some other state
has taken sobriety checkpoints to the Supreme Court.

Correct me someone if I am wrong on this and it has only been to the state supreme courts.
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AX10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. The USSC has not taken it up to this date.
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RPM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. I thought the Supremes had...
Correct me if I am wrong, but I was under the impression that they addressed checkpoints, stating that if the checkpoint was valid if it 1) was a fixed location, and 2) stopped all cars that passed through.

Pure randoms stops however, were not acceptable

Or am i in the wrong context?
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AX10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. I'm not sure. If all cars are stopped, then that would be fair though.
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Eric J in MN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #21
29. That is UNFAIR to everyone. (nt)
nt
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mtnester Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #17
22. Thanks, then it has only been as far as the Ohio Supreme Court
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Eric J in MN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #17
26. There was a case in the 1980s in which the Supreme Court
said randomly stopping drivers to check for alchohol use is ok.

(I disagree.)
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RPM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #26
31. be careful with your use of random...
what do you mean by random?

I thought the Court said that cops could have a fixed checkpoint, whereby if they stopped all cars for a cursory "good evening, had anything to drink?" it was OK.

If by random, you mean perfectly random (picking out every car that has a "A" in its license plate) it is NOT ok...
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djg21 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 08:35 PM
Response to Reply #14
42. There is nothing unconstitutional about it.
So long as the stops are truly random, and not based on some sort of profiling. If they stop every car, or evry other car, or every fifth car, etc., it is perfectly acceptable. This is well-settled.

Personally, I'm all for it if it keeps one drunk driver off of the roads.
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Kingshakabobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-19-05 11:08 AM
Response to Reply #42
60. Mind if we send the police by your house from time to time?
You know, just to take a look around and go through your things and make sure you are not breaking any laws.
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AX10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 10:48 AM
Response to Reply #42
64. Maybe the police will make some "random stops" by your house.
Tell us how much you just love it then, O.K!?! :eyes:
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FreeStateDemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 01:52 PM
Response to Original message
12. Police State, no probable cause equals citizen harassment
One of the guiding principals in my life is to have no inter-action with cops ever. Dealing with the Gestapo is a sure way to spoil a fine day. I believe that it is part of my freedom that if I don’t do anything criminal I am left the fuck alone by the uniformed bully boys armed with guns, clubs, tasers, attack dogs and bad attitudes.
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AX10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. Let me respond...
I agree with this part: "I believe that it is part of my freedom that if I don’t do anything criminal I am left the fuck alone".

I don't believe that most police are bad. I'd say 25% or so are bad. What's good is that most police can be trusted. What is bad is that the minority of untrustworthy one's is W-A-Y too high for comfort.

Some get that way after many years on the job (stess) and many become police because they are power hungy. The later is the one we must worry about.

The police would not have a reason to stop me.
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Eric J in MN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 05:02 PM
Response to Reply #15
27. The point is that they will be stopping everyone at the chekcpoint.
Opponents (like me) are saying that police shouldn't be allowed to stop people without probably cause.
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AX10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 10:46 AM
Response to Reply #27
63. That I agree with. Without probable cause...
there should be no stops.
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kymar57 Donating Member (377 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #12
36. Ya get an amen from me FSD
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Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 01:59 PM
Response to Original message
13. If you live in the area, make sure to have your papers ready!
Don't look guilty or suspicious.
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Conservativesux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-19-05 02:48 AM
Response to Reply #13
50. Dont look Black either. Vacaville is a mostly white farming town...
..and racial profiling is still alive and well in the state of California, in many such small cities here in the north state.
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shance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 02:25 PM
Response to Original message
18. Seems the ACLU might want to keep tabs of who is "arrested"
and/or hassled. This unfortunately, with the amount of civil liberty abuses taking place, could be a smoke screen for harassment.

It could also be a testing ground to have this happen in other California cities.

With all the secrecy happening with Homeland Security, the Patriot Act, etc., this warrants caution and even a discussion at the Residents Association meeting and the Chamber of Commerce.
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LSK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 02:29 PM
Response to Original message
20. they have been doing this in suburban chicago for at least 15/20 years
Not that I like it. I think its BULLSHIT.
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ComerPerro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-19-05 10:39 AM
Response to Reply #20
58. Yeah, it doesn't seem to solve anything
People I know wouldn't stop driving drunk. They would just say, "Well, there's a checkpoint on Rt. 83, so I'll have to remember to go around it".
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KG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 02:35 PM
Response to Original message
23. it's done in FL, but it's posted in that days paper where it's going to be
if it's important, a person could just read the paper, and go another route,
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-19-05 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #23
62. The type of people likely to be caught
are often not the type of people who read the newspaper (except for perhaps the sports section).
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Lefty48197 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 04:57 PM
Response to Original message
25. Isn't there a Constitutional amendment that deals with unreasonable search
and seizure? There should be.
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Dave Reynolds Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #25
30. Yep, #4.
I would not show identification without some hint of wrong-doing on my part.

I suspect I would be detained for not doing so.

I saw a tape of a woman refusing to show ID under those circumstances, she was arrested. All charges were later dropped.
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AX10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 07:38 PM
Response to Reply #30
38. These days they'll just use a Taser/Torture gun on you.
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djg21 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 08:39 PM
Response to Reply #30
43. Then you shouldn't be driving!
There is no right to drive. It is merely a privilege. The police, on the other hand, have the right to pull you over for purposes of completing a RANDOM sobriety check. If you refuse to cooperate, or refuse to submit to a blood-alcohol test, that may be presumptive grounds to suspend/revoke your driver's license.
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Dave Reynolds Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 09:41 PM
Response to Reply #43
45. Probable cause to me
is not "let's stop a bunch of random fucks and see what we can shake out".

Say it with me now..."PROBABLE CAUSE".
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djg21 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-19-05 07:33 AM
Response to Reply #45
54. Sorry Dave!
Your legal analysis is just wrong. Probable cause to search a vehicle is needed only after the vehicle is pulled over for purposes of a RANDOM sobriety stop. The officer may freely observe the driver, and then assess whether probable cause is present either to enter the car, to administer a breathalyzer, or to detain the driver.

When you start you own country, and promulgate your own personal constitution,please let me know.
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Dave Reynolds Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-19-05 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #54
57. Okay, I'll do that.
And in my own country, there will be a two drink minimum and no cover charge.

And ladies night every night.

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Conservativesux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-19-05 02:23 AM
Response to Reply #25
47. There was, but most Americans dont even know all thier rights. The
stupid idiots get scared everytime a cop stops them and/or asks them some question, instead of shutting the hell up and demanding to be allowed to go or contact thier attorney.

Going along with the authorities too easily is bread into most Americans these days, who know nothing of the Cold War and WW II.

KSFO talk-show host Bernie Ward is right: Americans are quite comfortable with fascism, as long as no one calls it that.
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dogday Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 05:03 PM
Response to Original message
28. I don't think they should have these unless there is a
definitive reason to set one up such as a crime, escape, etc.


These check points stop law abiding citizens not breaking any laws. To detain and to search a vehicle with no probable cause give me the chills.

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RPM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 06:19 PM
Response to Reply #28
32. technically, its not a detention.
that's why its legal.

It is a stop based on reasonable suspicion (a much lower standard) that makes this legal. Reasonable suspicion that criminal activity is afoot is the basis for a stop - here all the police would need to show is that they are justified in believing that any particular car on this street at this hour may have an intoxicated driver (i.e. Main Street where all the bars are at 3 AM). Here, the police would have no right to search your car - only to stop, talk and observe what they can with their plain sight (and since the Dog Sniff case last January, plain smell of dogs).

Probable cause is the standard for search or arrest. The person's behavior & circumstances during the stop may cause the reasonable suspcion into probable cause (slurred words, smell of dope, etc.)

Point being - your statement "detain and to search a vehicle with no probable cause give me the chills", while your valid opinion, is, by legal terms, incorrect. Here there is no detention, merely a stop - and the proper standard is reasonable suspicion, not probable cause.

I agree with you - I don't like it; nevertheless, those are the terms and standards in play and the relevant justification for the law as it stands.
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dogday Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. It's unconstitutional any way you say it in my book
We are supposed to be free in our pursuits, but I guess that is not the case.
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RPM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #33
35. well, your book isnt the one the courts are using...
you're free to have your own law - but don't be diappointed when the courts don't see fit to apply it.

and, technically, it is consitutional - the supreme court, whose job it is to interpret the constitution, has stated this to be the intent of the 4th amendment.

so - unless you convinve the courts to change it - or get a constitutional amendment passed, it IS constitutional.
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dogday Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 07:39 PM
Response to Reply #35
39. I never said it was, I was posting my opinion
you know opinion, what I feel inside. Nor was I trying have my own law, that ridiculous. You misconstrued my statement.
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RPM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 08:15 PM
Response to Reply #39
40. oh - you think its wrong...
i'm sorry - you said it was unconstitutional.

it's constitutional - but, like you say, probably wrong.
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AX10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #40
41. So you believe it's wrong then?
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dogday Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-19-05 09:06 AM
Response to Reply #40
55. I said in "MY BOOK"
from the very beginning. For someone who can quote law you sure are pretty inept at reading a opinion from someone....



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djg21 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 08:41 PM
Response to Reply #35
44. But no. . . .
I have a right to get oaked and then down a six-pack and then go out on a joy ride!

God these posts remind me of the libertarian freeper whackjobs.
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dogday Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-19-05 09:08 AM
Response to Reply #44
56. Your post reminds me of the Republican Right
if you don't think like I do, I am going to smear you.
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Conservativesux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-19-05 03:00 AM
Response to Reply #32
51. That is not "reasonable suspicion". That only applies to a single,
..individual stop, not blocking off the street and forcing all drivers to stop for an armed, badge-wearing person(s), who ask you questions about "where you were/are going", "have you been drinking, using dope" and other dumb questions that you DO NOT have to answer.

"Yes, Virginia its true; Officer Friendly isn't your friend anymore".


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maveric Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 06:25 PM
Response to Original message
34. They've been doing this in San Diego county for years.
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Conservativesux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-19-05 04:33 AM
Response to Reply #34
52. So that makes it legitimate or right?........................
Wrong!

Hand over your papers, or you will be shot...with a Tazer!!!

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RPM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 06:46 PM
Response to Original message
37. Sitz v. Michigan - DUI Checkpoints - USSC, 1990
Edited on Mon Jul-18-05 06:47 PM by RPM
note - bold and italics added...
----------------------------
MICHIGAN DEP'T OF STATE POLICE v. SITZ, 496 U.S. 444 (1990)

CERTIORARI TO THE COURT OF APPEALS OF MICHIGAN
No. 88-1897
Feb. 27, 1990
June 14, 1990

Chief Justice REHNQUIST delivered the opinion of the Court.

This case poses the question whether a State's use of highway sobriety checkpoints violates the Fourth and Fourteenth Amendments to the United States Constitution. We hold that it does not, and therefore reverse the contrary holding of the Court of Appeals of Michigan.

Petitioners, the Michigan Department of State Police and its Director, established a sobriety checkpoint pilot program in early 1986. The Director appointed a Sobriety Checkpoint Advisory Committee comprising representatives of the State Police force, local police forces, state prosecutors, and the University of Michigan Transportation Research Institute. Pursuant to its charge, the Advisory Committee created guidelines setting forth procedures governing checkpoint operations, site selection, and publicity.

Under the guidelines, checkpoints would be set up at selected sites along state roads. All vehicles passing through a checkpoint would be stopped and their drivers briefly examined for signs of intoxication. In cases where a checkpoint officer detected signs of intoxication, the motorist would be directed to a location out of the traffic flow where an officer would check the motorist's driver's license and car registration and, if warranted, conduct further sobriety tests. Should the field tests and the officer's observations suggest that the driver was intoxicated, an arrest would be made. All other drivers would be permitted to resume their journey immediately.

The first — and to date the only — sobriety checkpoint operated under the program was conducted in Saginaw County with the assistance of the Saginaw County Sheriff's Department. During the hour-and-fifteen-minute duration of the checkpoint's operation, 126 vehicles passed through the checkpoint. The average delay for each vehicle was approximately 25 seconds. Two drivers were detained for field sobriety testing, and one of the two was arrested for driving under the influence of alcohol. A third driver who drove through without stopping was pulled over by an officer in an observation vehicle and arrested for driving under the influence.

On the day before the operation of the Saginaw County checkpoint, respondents filed a complaint in the Circuit Court of Wayne County seeking declaratory and injunctive relief from potential subjection to the checkpoints. Each of the respondents "is a licensed driver in the State of Michigan . . . who regularly travels throughout the State in his automobile." See Complaint, App. 3a-4a. During pretrial proceedings, petitioners agreed to delay further implementation of the checkpoint program pending the outcome of this litigation.

After the trial, at which the court heard extensive testimony concerning, inter alia, the "effectiveness" of highway sobriety checkpoint programs, the court ruled that the Michigan program violated the Fourth Amendment and Art. 1, § 11, of the Michigan Constitution. App. to Pet. for Cert. 132a. On appeal, the Michigan Court of Appeals affirmed the holding that the program violated the Fourth Amendment and, for that reason, did not consider whether the program violated the Michigan Constitution. 170 Mich.App. 433, 445, 429 N.W.2d 180, 185 (1988). After the Michigan Supreme Court denied petitioners' application for leave to appeal, we granted certiorari. 493 U.S. 806 (1989).

To decide this case, the trial court performed a balancing test derived from our opinion in Brown v. Texas, 443 U.S. 47 (1979). As described by the Court of Appeals, the test involved balancing the state's interest in preventing accidents caused by drunk drivers, the effectiveness of sobriety checkpoints in achieving that goal, and the level of intrusion on an individual's privacy caused by the checkpoints.

170 Mich.App. at 439, 429 N.W.2d, at 182 (citing Brown, supra, 443 U.S. at 50-51 ). The Court of Appeals agreed that "the Brown three-prong balancing test was the correct test to be used to determine the constitutionality of the sobriety checkpoint plan." 170 Mich.App., at 439, 429 N.W.2d, at 182.

As characterized by the Court of Appeals, the trial court's findings with respect to the balancing factors were that the State has "a grave and legitimate" interest in curbing drunken driving; that sobriety checkpoint programs are generally "ineffective" and, therefore, do not significantly further that interest; and that the checkpoints' "subjective intrusion" on individual liberties is substantial. Id. at 439 and 440, 429 N.W.2d, at 183 and 184. According to the court, the record disclosed no basis for disturbing the trial court's findings, which were made within the context of an analytical framework prescribed by this Court for determining the constitutionality of seizures less intrusive than traditional arrests. Id. at 445, 429 N.W.2d at 185.

In this Court, respondents seek to defend the judgment in their favor by insisting that the balancing test derived from Brown v. Texas, supra, was not the proper method of analysis. Respondents maintain that the analysis must proceed from a basis of probable cause or reasonable suspicion and rely for support on language from our decision last Term in Treasury Employees v. Von Raab, 489 U.S. 656 (1989). We said in Von Raab:
Where a Fourth Amendment intrusion serves special governmental needs, beyond the normal need for law enforcement, it is necessary to balance the individual's privacy expectations against the Government's interests to determine whether it is impractical to require a warrant or some level of individualized suspicion in the particular context.

Id. at 665-666. Respondents argue that there must be a showing of some special governmental need "beyond the normal need" for criminal law enforcement before a balancing analysis is appropriate, and that petitioners have demonstrated no such special need.

But it is perfectly plain from a reading of Von Raab, which cited and discussed with approval our earlier decision in United States v. Martinez-Fuerte, 428 U.S. 543 (1976), that it was in no way designed to repudiate our prior cases dealing with police stops of motorists on public highways. Martinez-Fuerte, supra, which utilized a balancing analysis in approving highway checkpoints for detecting illegal aliens, and Brown v. Texas, supra, are the relevant authorities here.

Petitioners concede, correctly in our view, that a Fourth Amendment "seizure" occurs when a vehicle is stopped at a checkpoint. Tr. of Oral Arg. 11; see Martinez-Fuerte, supra, at 556 ("It is agreed that checkpoint stops are `seizures' within the meaning of the Fourth Amendment"); Brower v. County of Inyo, 489 U.S. 593, 597 (1989) (Fourth Amendment seizure occurs "when there is a governmental termination of freedom of movement through means intentionally applied" (emphasis in original)). The question thus becomes whether such seizures are "reasonable" under the Fourth Amendment.

It is important to recognize what our inquiry is not about. No allegations are before us of unreasonable treatment of any person after an actual detention at a particular checkpoint. See Martinez-Fuerte, 428 U.S. at 559 ("claim that a particular exercise of discretion in locating or operating a checkpoint is unreasonable is subject to post-stop judicial review"). As pursued in the lower courts, the instant action challenges only the use of sobriety checkpoints generally. We address only the initial stop of each motorist passing through a checkpoint and the associated preliminary questioning and observation by checkpoint officers. Detention of particular motorists for more extensive field sobriety testing may require satisfaction of an individualized suspicion standard. Id. at 567.

No one can seriously dispute the magnitude of the drunken driving problem or the States' interest in eradicating it. Media reports of alcohol-related death and mutilation on the Nation's roads are legion. The anecdotal is confirmed by the statistical. "Drunk drivers cause an annual death toll of over 25,000[] and in the same time span cause nearly one million personal injuries and more than five billion dollars in property damage." 4 W. LaFave, Search and Seizure: A Treatise on the Fourth Amendment § 10.8(d), p. 71 (2d ed. 1987). For decades, this Court has "repeatedly lamented the tragedy." South Dakota v. Neville, 459 U.S. 553, 558 (1983); see Breithaupt v. Abram, 352 U.S. 432, 439 (1957) ("The increasing slaughter on our highways . . . now reaches the astounding figures only heard of on the battlefield").

Conversely, the weight bearing on the other scale — the measure of the intrusion on motorists stopped briefly at sobriety checkpoints — is slight. We reached a similar conclusion as to the intrusion on motorists subjected to a brief stop at a highway checkpoint for detecting illegal aliens. See Martinez-Fuerte, supra, at 558. We see virtually no difference between the levels of intrusion on law-abiding motorists from the brief stops necessary to the effectuation of these two types of checkpoints, which to the average motorist would seem identical save for the nature of the questions the checkpoint officers might ask. The trial court and the Court of Appeals, thus, accurately gauged the "objective" intrusion, measured by the duration of the seizure and the intensity of the investigation, as minimal. See 170 Mich.App. at 444, 429 N.W.2d at 184.

With respect to what it perceived to be the "subjective" intrusion on motorists, however, the Court of Appeals found such intrusion substantial. See supra at 449 . The court first affirmed the trial court's finding that the guidelines governing checkpoint operation minimize the discretion of the officers on the scene. But the court also agreed with the trial court's conclusion that the checkpoints have the potential to generate fear and surprise in motorists. This was so because the record failed to demonstrate that approaching motorists would be aware of their option to make U-turns or turnoffs to avoid the checkpoints. On that basis, the court deemed the subjective intrusion from the checkpoints unreasonable. Id. at 443-444, 429 N.W.2d at 184-185.

We believe the Michigan courts misread our cases concerning the degree of "subjective intrusion" and the potential for generating fear and surprise. The "fear and surprise" to be considered are not the natural fear of one who has been drinking over the prospect of being stopped at a sobriety checkpoint but, rather, the fear and surprise engendered in law abiding motorists by the nature of the stop. This was made clear in Martinez-Fuerte. Comparing checkpoint stops to roving patrol stops considered in prior cases, we said, we view checkpoint stops in a different light because the subjective intrusion — the generating of concern or even fright on the part of lawful travelers — is appreciably less in the case of a checkpoint stop. In Ortiz, <422 U.S. 891 (1975),> we noted:

The circumstances surrounding a checkpoint stop and search are far less intrusive than those attending a roving patrol stop. Roving patrols often operate at night on seldom-traveled roads, and their approach may frighten motorists. At traffic checkpoints, the motorist can see that other vehicles are being stopped, he can see visible signs of the officers' authority, and he is much less likely to be frightened or annoyed by the intrusion.

Martinez-Fuerte, 428 U.S. at 558. See also id. at 559. Here, checkpoints are selected pursuant to the guidelines, and uniformed police officers stop every approaching vehicle. The intrusion resulting from the brief stop at the sobriety checkpoint is for constitutional purposes indistinguishable from the checkpoint stops we upheld in Martinez-Fuerte.

The Court of Appeals went on to consider as part of the balancing analysis the "effectiveness" of the proposed checkpoint program. Based on extensive testimony in the trial record, the court concluded that the checkpoint program failed the "effectiveness" part of the test, and that this failure materially discounted petitioners' strong interest in implementing the program. We think the Court of Appeals was wrong on this point as well.

The actual language from Brown v. Texas, upon which the Michigan courts based their evaluation of "effectiveness," describes the balancing factor as "the degree to which the seizure advances the public interest." 443 U.S. at 51. This passage from Brown was not meant to transfer from politically accountable officials to the courts the decision as to which among reasonable alternative law enforcement techniques should be employed to deal with a serious public danger. Experts in police science might disagree over which of several methods of apprehending drunken drivers is preferable as an ideal. But for purposes of Fourth Amendment analysis, the choice among such reasonable alternatives remains with the governmental officials who have a unique understanding of, and a responsibility for, limited public resources, including a finite number of police officers. Brown's rather general reference to "the degree to which the seizure advances the public interest" was derived, as the opinion makes clear, from the line of cases culminating in Martinez-Fuerte, supra. Neither Martinez-Fuerte nor Delaware v. Prouse, 440 U.S. 648 (1979), however, the two cases cited by the Court of Appeals as providing the basis for its "effectiveness" review, see 170 Mich.App. at 442, 429 N.W.2d at 183, supports the searching examination of "effectiveness" undertaken by the Michigan court.

In Delaware v. Prouse, supra, we disapproved random stops made by Delaware Highway Patrol officers in an effort to apprehend unlicensed drivers and unsafe vehicles. We observed that no empirical evidence indicated that such stops would be an effective means of promoting roadway safety and said that it seems common sense that the percentage of all drivers on the road who are driving without a license is very small, and that the number of licensed drivers who will be stopped in order to find one unlicensed operator will be large indeed.

440 U.S. at 659-660 . We observed that the random stops involved the kind of standardless and unconstrained discretion is the evil the Court has discerned when in previous cases it has insisted that the discretion of the official in the field be circumscribed, at least to some extent.

Id. at 661 . We went on to state that our holding did not cast doubt on the permissibility of roadside truck weigh-stations and inspection checkpoints, at which some vehicles may be subject to further detention for safety and regulatory inspection than are others.

Unlike Prouse, this case involves neither a complete absence of empirical data nor a challenge to random highway stops. During the operation of the Saginaw County checkpoint, the detention of each of the 126 vehicles that entered the checkpoint resulted in the arrest of two drunken drivers. Stated as a percentage, approximately 1.5 percent of the drivers passing through the checkpoint were arrested for alcohol impairment. In addition, an expert witness testified at the trial that experience in other States demonstrated that, on the whole, sobriety checkpoints resulted in drunken driving arrests of around 1 percent of all motorists stopped. 170 Mich.App. at 441, 429 N.W.2d at 183. By way of comparison, the record from one of the consolidated cases in Martinez-Fuerte showed that, in the associated checkpoint, illegal aliens were found in only 0.12 percent of the vehicles passing through the checkpoint. See 428 U.S. at 554. The ratio of illegal aliens detected to vehicles stopped (considering that on occasion two or more illegal aliens were found in a single vehicle) was approximately 0.5 percent. See Ibid. We concluded that this "record . . . provides a rather complete picture of the effectiveness of the San Clemente checkpoint", ibid,, and we sustained its constitutionality. We see no justification for a different conclusion here.

In sum, the balance of the State's interest in preventing drunken driving, the extent to which this system can reasonably be said to advance that interest, and the degree of intrusion upon individual motorists who are briefly stopped, weighs in favor of the state program. We therefore hold that it is consistent with the Fourth Amendment. The judgment of the Michigan Court of Appeals is accordingly reversed, and the cause is remanded for further proceedings not inconsistent with this opinion.

It is so ordered.

Footnote:

* Statistical evidence incorporated in the dissent suggests that this figure declined between 1982 and 1988. See post at 460-461 n. 2 and 467-468 , n. 7 (citing National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, Fatal Accident Reporting System 1988). It was during this same period that police departments experimented with sobriety checkpoint systems. Petitioners, for instance, operated their checkpoint in May, 1986, see App. to Pet. for Cert. 6a, and the Maryland State Police checkpoint program, about which much testimony was given before the trial court, began in December, 1982. See id. at 84a. Indeed, it is quite possible that jurisdictions which have recently decided to implement sobriety checkpoint systems have relied on such data from the 1980s in assessing the likely utility of such checkpoints.

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Conservativesux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-19-05 02:39 AM
Response to Reply #37
49. " So this is how liberty dies"!
Also noted as absent are any mention of stopping cars for license and insurance checks, often using drug sniffing dogs to search the outside of the car, things for which the SCOTUS made no decision on here in this Certiorari to the Court of Appeals of Michigan.

Thats how it usually happens, folks. They get thier foot in the door and the rest of your "rights" are history before long.

Enjoy it while you can, comrades.

You pukes who think this is great stuff wont think its so great when the fascist thugs lay it down on YOU.

Again, I spit on everyone of you who thinks these checkpoints are a "good idea", not to mention constitutional.
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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-19-05 02:28 AM
Response to Original message
48. Wow. There goes the lucrative Vacaville tourist concession.
Guess we'll be living it up in Bakersfield or Fresno this year, instead, honey.
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ThomWV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-19-05 06:15 AM
Response to Original message
53. They Been Doing It Here For Years
I've been stopped in dozens of them, even back when I used to drink.

The set one up one night in front of a bar I was at. It was on a busy down town street (busy as it gets in West Virginia). All night a bunch of drunks got to watch a bunch of drunks get arrested. Around here a typical roadblock lasts 2 or 3 hours and they will drag in a good number (50~75) DUIs in that time on a warm Saturday night.
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Saphire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-19-05 11:13 AM
Response to Reply #53
61. been doin it for years in texas, too. used to get them on
sunday afternoon drive home from the beach.
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ProfessorGAC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-19-05 10:48 AM
Response to Original message
59. Completely Opposed
Random checks like this are essentially a requirement to prove one's self innocent of any wrongdoing. Hence, it's not "innocent until PROVEN guilty" but a presumption of guilt and a need to PROVE one has done nothing wrong.

It's disgusting. I know the SCOTUS has approved such searches. I think they're completely in error on this. They failed to see the forest because they were too busy studying one or two trees.
The Professor
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