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Disturbed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 03:37 PM
Original message
Saddam should still be Prez. of Iraq.
He has not been convicted of any crimes.

The Prez. of the USA has said he will not fire anyone in his Admin. who has not been convicted of a crime. This standard has to be applied to Saddam and his Admin., as well.
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coloradodem2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 03:40 PM
Response to Original message
1. He has not been convicted.
He has committed numerous crimes though. I hate Saddam, but think that the war is wrong.
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Pewlett Hackard Donating Member (59 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 03:41 PM
Response to Original message
2. x
you should be the US Attorney General
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Disturbed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. The US Govt. had not right to imprison Saddam or any of his
Admin. because the invasion of Iraq was illegal according to Intl. Law. The Occupation and the laws that Bremmer imposed upon Iraq are also illegal. Saddam is still the legit Prez. of Iraq. He thinks that he is and legally he is correct.
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geek tragedy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 03:43 PM
Response to Original message
3. Scary how that logic works.
You may want to throw a sarcasm tag on there, though.
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MsUnderstood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #3
13. hmmm don't think it is sarcasm
We as a country don't have a right to "INVADE" another country, regardless of our intentions, good or bad. We have the right to defend ourselves if attacked, but we don't have the right to force our beliefs on others through war.

But the orginal post is great logic--we took the leader out of a country for accussations against him but we live high ranking officals in the adminstration while accussations pend against them.
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geek tragedy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. I highly doubt that any progressive would call for Saddam to be
Edited on Mon Jul-18-05 04:04 PM by geek tragedy
returned to power in Iraq. In fact, I know that to be the case.

Edited to add: You're right, the OP did mean it.

I retract nothing else though. This certainly does help the Michelle Malkin crowd. Cui bono?
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Psephos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #14
20. Amen n/t
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SeveneightyWhoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 03:47 PM
Response to Original message
5. I can't wait until Michelle Malkin or some other nitwit..
..provides this thread as proof of Democratic love for Saddam.

Of course, she won't understand the sarcasm involved or the actual message intended.
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infinitehangover Donating Member (71 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. But his party was a Socialist-Secular one!
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infinitehangover Donating Member (71 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 03:47 PM
Response to Original message
6. If you mean by timemachine. Then Yes.
But reinstating him seems like a really bad idea. The current civil war going on there would be thrown even more off kilter. And think about the aftermath, assuming that he could reclaim power. Though I think fundementalists would take control as no one would want to ally with Saddam, especially considering how secular he is viewed by the world-wide gun-totting Muslim community.
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NYCGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. I believe you misunderstood the meaning of the post.
It was meant to be facetious.
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Disturbed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. No, I am not being sarcastic. Legally, I am correct.
The US Govt. had not right to imprison Saddam or any of his

Admin. because the invasion of Iraq was illegal according to Intl. Law. The Occupation and the laws that Bremmer imposed upon Iraq are also illegal. Saddam is still the legit Prez. of Iraq. He thinks that he is and legally he is correct.
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geek tragedy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Where did you get your law degree?
What legal source materials did you rely upon?

And what do you mean by "legitimate?"

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NYCGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #9
15. Well, then, that's the silliest statement I've heard in a long time. NT
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infinitehangover Donating Member (71 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. That's why sarcasm is dumb in print.
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dogday Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 03:57 PM
Response to Original message
11. Regime Change is not a reason to go to war..... nt
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Disturbed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Regime Change
Forced, violent Regime Change is illegal under Intl. Law. The USA has commited an Intl. Crime by illegally invading a sovereign country and removing a legal Admin. of that sovereing country. Saddam and his Admin. have not been convicted of any crimes. It isn't a complicated issue in my view.
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Pewlett Hackard Donating Member (59 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #12
17. dont forget
it was Rummsfeld that put Saddam in power in teh first place
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geek tragedy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. No it wasn't. Rumsfeld was sucking up to Saddam long after Saddam
seized power.
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ArkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 04:22 PM
Response to Original message
19. Good luck with that analogy.
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 06:02 PM
Response to Original message
21. Well, Saddam has about as much right to rule Iraq as the Saudi princes
have in Saudi Arabia, or what's-his-name (can never remember his name) in Uzbekistan, or George Bush, for that matter (Stolen Election II). The key is recognition by other governments, and by the United Nations.

I believe that the UN took care of the legal legitimacy of the current Bush Cartel-imposed government of Iraq. That's the end of it. It should, in fact, be a UN protectorate, but the Bush Cartel had some more looting to do (of Iraqis and Americans), and wouldn't permit it.

I can't imagine Saddam ever being recognized again, even though his overthrow was completely illegal and a war crime. (Who is going to hold the Bush Cartel responsible? Really, only the American people can do that, if we ever recover our right to vote. The UN doesn't have the raw power that it would need to time-machine back to Saddam's rule, and there probably isn't anyone who would want to.)

But I have certainly thought that, if I were Saddam's lawyer, a good case could be made for the illegality of his overthrow, and the illegitimacy of the current gov't (and its right to try him). He WAS the legitimate, recognized head of Iraq at the time of the US invasion--an invasion for which we had no UN mandate, and no justification whatsoever at the time. It's interesting that this was among the first things that Saddam said, before they shut him up, at that first hearing (where press were present)--that he is the president of Iraq and that the court is illegitimate. As for his crimes, there are half a dozen heads of governments these days (at least) as guilty as Saddam of crimes against humanity, if not more guilty. Why aren't they on trial?

These legalities ARE important--very important--for this reason: If the niceties and forms of legitimacy are not followed, then the current, structured world of nations, and diplomacy and international law, could just crumble away, and those with the biggest armies would just invade and topple anyone weaker than themselves. This is the terrible precedent that the Bush Cartel has set.

So you address the president of Uzbekistan with respect, and permit him to send a representative to the UN on behalf of his country--even if you are aware than he boils dissidents in oil. If things get bad enough there--or he violates the niceties of international law and diplomacy (say, by invading a neighbor)--then the UN--if it can get major country support--might do a peacekeeping mission, as was done when Saddam invaded Kuwait. I know that was a crock, but that was the nicety being followed, and also being used as an excuse--because Saddam had decided to trade in euros, and had broken off with Rumsfeld and allied himself with the Russians.

But at least following the niceties (Bush I doing it through the UN) permits debate, dissent and time for all parties to think things through. (For instance, Saddam could have pulled out of Kuwait.) And the bulk of the countries of the world support this international order, which tends to keep people in line. It was all designed post WW II, to prevent another Hitlerian rise, and has worked, albeit imperfectly, until now. Now, it is the US that is way out of line--and has committed a war crime--and no one was able to stop them.

A bit of a backtrack: The US Senate could have stopped them--but had been anthraxed, and also had the example of Paul Wellstone to think about. And a number of Democrats, tied into the military-corporate complex, wanted war in the Middle East, and so willingly believed the lies about Iraq WMDs (despite UN inspectors info to the contrary). They put all sorts of caveats in their speeches--like, Bush making a sincere effort to get UN support (right)--but they really wanted war. Twenty-five voted against it, to their credit--but the other 25 made it a rout for Bush. (--100 in the House voted against it, not enough). And both houses have, since that time, larded the billions onto Halliburton, Bechtel and the rest of the war profiteers. A sorry tale.

So, I imagine that Bush and Cheney, if they were in the dock for their war crimes, could point to the US Congress, just as Saddam is pointing to his former legitimacy as head of government. (His elections were a bit more of a farce than Bush's--he got 90% of the vote, as I recall. Diebold and ES&S had the grace to re-install Bush with a rather slim margin--and had to really work the secret, proprietary programming, and had to combine with Rovian tactics in Ohio, to produce it. In short, they maintained the illusion of democracy, and its forms and some of its niceties.) (Shorting black precincts and purging black voters wasn't very nice, however.)

Do we want the edifice of international law to just come crumbling down? I don't think so.

Upshot? Saddam should not be in US hands, nor in the hands of a US-installed gov't in Iraq. He should be under UN supervision, or in the custody of the Hague (World Court). That's what SHOULD BE happening. That it is not happening is a great disorder and disturbance of the very delicate balance of international order. Saddam could very well argue that, and could ask for protection, or asylum somewhere--if they ever again permit him to speak.

He should properly be in the custody of the World Court, in my opinion, and should be tried for his crimes objectively and fairly--not by some kangaroo court under heavy US influence amidst the chaos of a US-caused civil war.

Are we vengeance seekers? Lynchers? Tribalists? A law unto ourselves? Or are we a lawful people? That is the question.

We have been holding hundreds of people in prison in Guantanamo Bay for years, with no charges against them, no court of law, no convictions. And we have furthermore tortured many people, there and in Iraq (and probably in secret prisons around the world). Is this what we have become? The world's outlaws?

I think we should act immediately to restore a sense of lawfulness and order in the world, and to signal our support of the UN and of the Geneva Conventions. And if that means foregoing Saddam's inevitable execution by the US-installed Iraqi gov't, so be it. This continued disorder is extremely dangerous; it is frightening other countries; and God knows what it could lead to.

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ArkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-19-05 08:34 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. You'll need a little more than luck with this one.
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wallwriter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-19-05 08:49 AM
Response to Original message
23. Don't give this sort of Ammo to the Freepers of the world
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ProfessorGAC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-19-05 08:53 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. I Don't Get These Responses
I'm not agreeing with the OP, but i'm asking a different, tangentially related question that grew out of this post.

Why does anyone here care what mopes like Maulkin, or anyone dumb enough to think she's right about anything, or idiots like the Freepers think?

Ammunition for what? They already think they've got all the answers. No amount of reasoned debate is going to convince those buffoons that we're right and they're wrong.

So, why is anyone here at DU supposed to care what they think?
The Professor
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geek tragedy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-19-05 09:53 AM
Response to Reply #24
27. "Don't give the Freepers/Malkin ammunition" is a polite way of
saying "please don't disgrace and discredit this place with such stupidity and moral idiocy."

The right's favorite tactic is to paint progressives as a bunch of Saddam-loving Ward Churchills. Why help their efforts?
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wallwriter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-19-05 09:59 AM
Response to Reply #27
28. Yes. Well put.
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ProfessorGAC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-19-05 10:15 AM
Response to Reply #28
31. What Was Well Put?
That didn't answer my question at all! Why should i, or you, or anyone else on DU care what Maulkin or Freepers think?

What ammunition are we giving them? Do you honestly believe they already don't think badly of us? So, who cares if a post taken out of context reinforces their feeble opinions?

What i'm asking is why should we care what those subsimians think?
The Professor
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wallwriter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-19-05 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #31
33. Why make their task easier?
Just because our opposition has abandoned the principles of meaningful, cogent expression and real political dialogue doesn't mean we have to also.

I personally try (whether I succeed or not) to write and speak in such a way that my words could persuade the opposition. Nobody in their right mind believes that Saddam should be back in office. What if a potential or new DU'er is looking at this site wondering what people on it are like. Somebody wavering could look at a statement like that and think, Gee, these people are pathologically contrarian morons. We are not.

I am not accusing you of being one, but you do make such an interpretation easier to make.
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ProfessorGAC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-19-05 10:30 AM
Response to Reply #33
34. I Didn't Agree With The OP
I think it's a silly premise, prima facie. But, i still can't care what mouthbreathers like that think. The heck with them. I am 100% sure that on any topic, i'll disagree with them, and equally confident i'll be right and they'll be wrong.

Their opinion could not possibly be any less relevant to me.

And, exactly how do i make such a interpretation easier to make? I just asked a question. Now, if we ask questions we risk alienating newcomers?
The Professor
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geek tragedy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-19-05 10:30 AM
Response to Reply #31
35. It's not what the wingnuts think--it's a matter of the wingnuts being able
to persuade non-wingnuts that we're a bunch of Saddam-loving Ward Churchills.

There are a lot of squishy "moderates" who read blogs like Instapundit and even Malkin. There's about two degrees of separation between blogs on the Internet. What happens at Malkin's doesn't stay at Malkins--it makes its way across blogs of varying political stripes.
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ProfessorGAC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-19-05 10:33 AM
Response to Reply #35
37. Anybody Who Draws Those Types Of Conclusions. . .
. . .is exactly about whom i'm speaking. Again, i think you credit too highly those who would be swayed by such rhetoric when the truth is evident for those who seek it.
The Professor
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geek tragedy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-19-05 10:46 AM
Response to Reply #37
38. Persuasion works on a number of levels. We can't afford to
dismiss the easily fooled and manipulated--they're the people who unfortunately decide the winners of elections.
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ProfessorGAC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-19-05 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #38
40. We'll Leave It At That
No serious disagreement. But, remember that the original objection was based upon what Maulkin-ites and Freepers would think. You've taken it to a different position, and i don't disagree.
The Professor
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ProfessorGAC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-19-05 10:13 AM
Response to Reply #27
29. But, So What?
You didn't address my actual question.

How does an opinion disgrace DU if the concern is over what Freepers think? Disgrace DU in the eyes of whom?

I'm not asking for an explanation of what is meant. I know what people mean.

I'm asking for someone to explain why ANYBODY here should care what their ilk thinks of us.
The Professor
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geek tragedy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-19-05 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #29
32. Nobody cares what they think. Folks care about handing them
a propaganda tool that they can use to spread the perception that progressive activists are a bunch of Saddam-loving Ward Churchills.
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ProfessorGAC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-19-05 10:32 AM
Response to Reply #32
36. But, Spread The Perception To Whom
Do you really think anybody who isn't already our polar opposite reads Michelle Maulkin, other than for laughs? Do you really think the Freepers can communicate outside their pathetic little circle to propagandize about us?

I believe you think too highly of that crowd of troglodytes.
The Professor
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geek tragedy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-19-05 10:50 AM
Response to Reply #36
41. The problem is that stuff does circulate from outside of that circle
The media whores, for instance, all read Instahack.

Imagine a series of concentric circles. At the center are the hardcore wingnuts. Each circle around this core represents a class of readers and observers. The further one gets away from the core, the less wingnutty the people in that location are.

Now, the people on the very outer edge of the circle may not read or believe Malkin. But they will listen to people just a little more wingnutty than themselves--those just inside their concentric circle. And those people in turn listen to people just a little more wingnutty than themselves.

Propaganda does not operate by mere logic--it depends on the Big Lie and a reinforcement of subconscious suspicions.
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ProfessorGAC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-19-05 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #41
42. Like I Said, We'll Leave This Lay
We're not in terrible disagreement, but have a different sense of the importance of the "aftershocks".
The Professor
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Lecky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-19-05 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #23
39. Why not?
Edited on Tue Jul-19-05 11:46 AM by Lecky
While I don't consider the title of this thread to be the most effective. We shouldn't be afraid to be honest about something that affects us all because we are scared of what the freepers think. This is our country too.

Why live in denial like they do? Do you agree with what our country has done in all of our names? Who gives a fuck what the freepers think anyway? They'd approve of nuking France if Bush thought it was necessary.

They know we don't like Saddam, but they don't like the fact that we disagree with the current administration so they vilify us.

Notice a pattern here? If anyone disagrees with them, they must be the enemy. Recent example: Valarie Plame, Joe Wilson...

Some people really want to justify this war, they will go to any means to make this war righteous. They don't give a fuck about International law, or the opinions of our allies...(they just get in the way anyway). "If you aren't with us, you're against us".

While I believe we should be focusing on the current situation instead of dwelling in the past, it's important to not ignore what we have done, it should be a lesson for us all. Shouldn't we hold our country to the highest of standards? In order to improve we must be aware of our flaws.

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jzodda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-19-05 09:00 AM
Response to Original message
25. This has got to be the most idiotic post of all time
Not even worth the space to debate it
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fujiyama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-19-05 09:48 AM
Response to Original message
26. These standards should be applied
and for justice to be served, Bush and Cheney would be sitting in a cell right next to Saddam after they were all tried at the Hague for war crimes.

But that's not goin to happen anytime soon. I somehow doubt Bush or anyone else from this admin will go to prison.

Frankly Saddam is irrelevant at this point. He was an egomaniacal tin pot dictator responsible for the deaths of many. He really doesn't deserve our sympathy - the innocent people of Iraq do though - victims of both Saddam and the US.



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ComerPerro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-19-05 10:15 AM
Response to Original message
30. By the same token, if Bush had kept his word on the invasion
Saddam would still be in power.

By Bush's own prewar standards, he believes Saddam should be in power.
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