Religious debates; Waste of Time?

[inthebrain]

Is anyone here getting sick and tired of Religious discusssions on the nightly news and message boards in general?

Quite frankly I am bored sick with it. I think it's a lame attempt to claim moral highground on a subject that not everyone aggrees with. I think in a political discussion; trying to figure out what message really hits people and improves their lives, this debate teeters on issue avoidance.

Where are the Rent control advocates?

Where are the harsh critics of capitalism?

Where are the views of those that belive in wealth distribution?

These are three targets that fly in the face of Republican trickle down economics. I think arguing religion just gives that far right religio whackos a bigger megaphone for them to work with.

Many of their stances on the issues is completely out of bounds with public opinion.

Another imporatant discussion that should be number one in the minds of all democrats are the effects of media deregulation. Very rarely do I see anyone engage in this discussion or open anyone up to it.

In the wake of loses in the 2000, 2002 and 2004 elections this issues seems to be one that democrats shy away from the most. It is the prime reson why voter fraud goes unquestioned or is dismissed by the public at large.

Engagin in moral values debates and Religious interpreations is a major waste of time. THis allows Republicans to use their religio fringe to frame the debate.

[More Than A Feeling]

1. If we don't defend our values, who will? Policy isn't everything

They will talk about religion whether we like it or not. People care about it, whether we like it or not. It has consequences in daily life, whether we like it or not.

If we choose not to participate, then they get the floor all to themselves. They should never have the floor to themselves on anything.

Now, that doesn't mean that everyone has to run right out and become a theologian, but it does mean that those of us who are so inclined to take up the issue of religion and its ramifications in daily life, should do so.

Those of us who aren't, can advocate other issues. Each can do what they are best at, and let others do likewise.

[heidler1]

2. Well said. Plus we can pick on them all day without feeling guilty.

[inthebrain]

4. Where do these debates effect those issues that matter

It has a distinct political intent.

It's to get you to fight over ground with which you've already won ie abortion.

The idea is to frame the debate and not go by the rules that have already been framed by your oponent.

How does arguing religious values euqual to dealing with rising housing costs?

How about inflation and declining salaries?

How does it address the thuggery of NAFTA WTO?

There is a reason why these people have been given a megaphone and it has nothing to do with religion. Everything Republicans do contradict Christian Belifs anyways. This whole religious values debate is a major puppet to get you to engage in it.

Quite frankly, it falls flat for Republicans and the right as a whole. By enegaging in it you help establich the falsehood that this nation was founded and should be governed by christian values.

A great portion of this country could give two shits about any of that stuff. The are plenty of us who are atheists (myself included), Jews, Islamic, Hindu and even christian that belive none of this crap should ever be legislated.None of us give two shits about it and when the debate starts we either change the channel or completely tune out.

Do you really want to refight the creationism debate in public schools? Engaing only gives these people a bigger megaphine from which to work from.

How about the Tem Commandments on Court House property?

It's all set up for you to engage and put this issue in a national spot light.

Democrats and progressives will win when they put across a message that they want to improve EVERYONES lives. Trying to claim a bigger lock on christian values only lends further legitmacy to the religious bigotry and intolerance of the religious right.

Democrats need to focus on getting invloved in improving lives. Not engaging with a scarecrow cult propped up by the Republican party.

[More Than A Feeling]

8. If no one engages the evangelical/fundamentalists, they win.

If no one is there to argue against creationism, then it will be taught.
If no one is there to argue against posting the ten commandments, they will be posted.
If no one is there to contest the fundamentalist/evangelical claim to speak for Christianity, then it will only add to their power.

Then all those atheists, and non-christians, and liberal christians will not be able to change the channel, because it will be the only channel on.

[inthebrain]

15. Its one thing to engage

It's another thing to embrace.

"If no one is there to argue against creationism, then it will be taught."

It is taught.

In every church on every street corner in America. Just because we oppose it in our schooling doesnt mean we should try and embrace "their values".


"If no one is there to argue against posting the ten commandments, they will be posted."

The ten commandments do not inluence our laws. Our laws should be based on what allows our society to be a society. Murder and Stealing are the only two that are laws.

THere are tons of non christian societies that have them on the books as well. Being a better christian has nothing to do with it. Claiming we have a better lock on the values of christian bigots gets a little ridiculous.

"If no one is there to contest the fundamentalist/evangelical claim to speak for Christianity, then it will only add to their power."

Contesting and embracing are very different and thats what I'm discussing.

"Then all those atheists, and non-christians, and liberal christians will not be able to change the channel, because it will be the only channel on."

It already is the only channel on.

Republicans claiming that we should be shaping laws on christian values.

Democrats claiming they can do a better job at it.

Christians dont have a lock on morality. Arguing that we can do these things better becomes disengous and futile.

[More Than A Feeling]

21. Who do you know who is saying Democrats should be wooing

fundamentalists by becoming as insane as the republican party?

I know no one like that.

I do know people who argue that if one is a Christian and wishes to vote on that basis, it would be more consistant to vote Democratic, based on an interpretation of the Christian message that is completely different from that of the fundamentalists. That message has to do with economic justice, the precise issues you were mentioning.

I am on your side of the church and state debate. You don't have to convince me.

[inthebrain]

23. Answer this......

Why do you think Clinton called Kerry and told him to adopt an anti gay marriage platform?

Why is there a discussion within the democratic party to give up abortion?

These decisions are all influenced by right wing religio fundamentalists. It is a move to the right and it is an attempt to attract religio bigots.

If the democratic platform attracts christians because it appeals to their beliefs, that's fine. Democratic platforms should not be shaped, nor should they cave to the outside preassures of religio bigots.

You also have to ask yourself where that leves Atheists, Agnostics, Jews, Islamics, Hinduists and Buddhists. America is shaped by people of all stripes.

Yes, there are those in the Dem party that want to give on some crucial platforms to attract some of these religio bigots. I want a party thats willing to throw mud based on principled stances. I don't want one that's going to cave to all small minority of bigots.

LBJ would have eaten these idiots for lunch and told them to go screw. There is alot to his presidency that I dont agree with. His crafting of the 1964 civil rights act was a bold stand on principle. It is also one of the last surviving legacies of a once great democratic party. It cost them many bigots in the party and in the South but that was a good thing.

I see Democrats, right now, all over the country that shy away from taking these religio whackos head on. Instead of defying them, they are now out to assimilate with them. I want this party to take a principled stand, uphold it's legacy and support gay marriage to the hilt!!!!

I see civil unions as a "seperate but equal" stance.

Hillary is one on the short list.

I want my party of trust busters back as well.

I dont want a party of disengous panderers.

[More Than A Feeling]

26. Is that what you see?

I see Senator Ken Salazar (D-CO) calling James Dobson the Anti-Christ, then amending it to say what he really meant was unchristian.
http://rockymountainnews.com/drmn/state/article/0,1299,DRMN_21_3735539,00.html

You can see Harry Reid's reaction to Justice Sunday here: http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2005/04/dems-react-to-justice-sunday.html

The fact is that we will never know what might have happened if Kerry had come out in full support of gay marriage. He may not even personally believe in it, I don't know. What I do know is that the "civil unions, not gay marriage" stance can be entirely in accord with equal rights for all, and I will explain how that can be, if you wish. It is not a sign that fundamentalists are calling the shots.

The discussion about abortion within the Democratic Party is not about ending our support for the pro-choice position. Rather, it is an attempt to show that if your goal is reducing abortion, Democratic policies are the way to go. Give women birth control, comprehensive sex ed, and economic opportunity, and the abortion rate will plummet. I fail to see how that is pandering to fundamentalists. It's what happened during Clinton's presidency, and no one complained then that he was pandering to the religious right.

Keep fighting for what you believe in, and please try to understand that your concerns are taken seriously. The aftermath of a loss like 2004 will necessarily involve some soul searching and self questioning. That is one of the virtues of Democrats, right? That we question established wisdom and authority. All sorts of possibilities are going to be thrown out, even ones that you hate. It isn't a sign that the fundamentalists are moving in. It's a sign that our party remains healthy.

[inthebrain]

27. Kind of an oddball response..

The discussion within the Democratic party, Hillary included, is giving up support for abortion. If that is what we call limiting them, so be it.

The number one reason why people have abortions besides being too young is HEALTHCARE!!!!

You want to discuss reducing abortions? Tie it into the healthcare dicussions. Women already have birth control!! Ending discrimination by inusrance companies and forcing them to cover it might work.
HEALTH CARE!!!!!!

And bringing up Clinton AKA "Lets end welfare as we know it" aint exactly the way to go. That man caved to the fundies and gave tax breaks to people hiring ex welfare recipients. All in the name of "family values" and "Economic Opportunity".

As it stands right now Democrats arent doing that. They are caving to the fundies.

And dont get me started on that civil unions being equal to marriage rights. Those rights are not recognized across state lines. MARRIAGE IS!!!!!

Now, the question is, are the fundies taking over the Democratic party?

NO.

BUT, they are doing one hell of a job of framing the debate and getting Dems to back down. Going about in the manner of being better christians is stupid and not what this country is founded upon.

Democrats should be pushing for MARRIAGE RIGHTS for gays, not civil unions.

[wildeyed]

3. Many of the christians I know vote republican

simply because they view it as the christian "brand". Most do not agree with the majority of the positions taken by the repub party, up to and including abortion and gay marriage. But they think that repubs are more christian, so they vote repub. Not very logical or intelligent of them, but still true.

I agree with you about addressing other issues. Dems need to be dems, to stand for something. But if we want to get the attention and votes of a large segment of citizens, we have to talk religion, too.

[JuniperLea]

5. agreed

there are a few basic principles i tend to lean on in this regard.

free will:

god gave it to us. he did not force his laws upon us, he gave us free will to see how we used it. he clearly didn't want to force people into heaven.

god made all people and loves them all equally:

like a parent. he even loves saddam hussein, as he does bush and he did hitler. love the sinner, hate the sin.

these fundies need to learn to live and let live like the bible says to do.

[inthebrain]

7. If thats the case

Why bother?

Why not try to create more democrats as opposed to leaching off the Republican party?

Thats how we got into this mess in the first place. If that is the way, the center will continue to collapse.

In the last twenty years, the right has been effective at Framing the debate and attacking the center. Attack their think tank bigots

ahem...

Horowitz

Weyrich

Murdoch

Scaife

and you will completely blow this debate off of the table.

[wildeyed]

10. What do you mean "create more democrats"?

I created two already, but I am tired, don't want to have anymore!

But seriously, how do you propose we "attack the think tank bigots"? And even if we are effective at doing that, people still care deeply about religion. The think tank bigots are just better at exploiting that than we are. We simply ignore it.

I am not advocating giving up traditionally democratic issues or abandoning our traditional constituencies. Just try to frame our issues in religious terms and reclaim our populous roots.

Jesus never said a word about gay marriage, but he was pretty direct about the importance of economic justice and about being a peacemaker. And we can talk about these things, connect them to our vision for america. They are not at odds.

An example, I put a bumper sticker on my car that says 'Blessed are the Peacemakers' after the last election. A woman I know, christian, evangelical, and Bush voter says "what a NICE bumper sticker wildeyed!". She didn't get the irony at all, of voting for Bush and wanting to be a Peacemaker. She just liked it 'cause Jesus said it and she read it in the bible.

[inthebrain]

12. In other words

By leaching the religio bigots out of the Republican party and placing them in the Dem party, you are just making another Republican party in Democrats clothing.

Thats what they want.

How are you going to create a party that stands by facts over opinion?

Christian belief VS objective thinking seriously conflict. Addressing these people and using their frames puts abortion, gay discrimination, and mysogony back on the table.

There is a lot in the bible, that supports these issues.

Fact is, christianity and religion in general don't have all the answers and displaces objectivity with subjectivity. Do you want policy decisions created by those frames.

Democrats can't do religio bigotry better than Republicans. Why take it on or try to spin it?

I hate to tell you this but those that vote Republican based on Religious sentiments are in the minority. They've just been given a megaphone.

People still care about religion. I'm not denyign that. The fact is that over 80% of the country believe that religion should not be legislated. Many of these think tak bigots, Falwell and Robertson are included, are used to influence public opinion.

They should be revealed for who they are along with the dirty tricks they are playing on the public.

Why isnt Robertsons support for apartheid in South Afica ever addressed?

Falewell is already maligned as a nut.

There are plenty of people in the bible belt who have had enough of these people. The way you create more Democrats is to have something different to offer and hold the religio whackos accountable for thier bigotry?

They already have plenty of support in the media. How do you propose you win that fight when every thing you say and oppose is undermined by a right wing think tank fronted media?

YOu think they are going to put up left wing religious figures that support your opinion? They would never dare do that as a level playing field "fair and balenced" was never the objective.

You create more Democrats by playing the role of the dissenter. Republicans have done that for thirty years with their disengous "liberal media" and "anti big government" arguments.

Never ever undersetimate the power of the dissenter. Assimilation takes much longer and comes off as disengenous.

Your priority number one are these three.

1)Media

2)Media

3)Media

[Peabody409]

28. Let's see...

Let's keep maligning these people so they hate us even more.

[inthebrain]

29. Could they.....

hate you more?

I think it really comes down to something FDR once said(paraphrased)

"It's always wise to judge a man by the enemies he's made"

I dont see how being hated by the Falwell, Robertson, and Phelps lot is such a bad thing. Even looking at xtianity, they arent even in the mainstream.

They hate fellow christians as well. ones that are defined as Secularists. Their hatred of tolerance and a tolerant society is what peaves them the most.

Being hated for that isnt a bad thing.

Even the Pope has a hard time convincing everyone.

Being hated by a bunch of greedy corporate pigs is never a bad thing either. You can't win over everybody and sometimes the ones you dont win over are better off kept on the outs.

Bush, Rove, Falwell, Robertson, Phelps and Cheney are all hated by some very good people.

[inthebrain]

24. Think tank bigots

"But seriously, how do you propose we "attack the think tank bigots"? And even if we are effective at doing that, people still care deeply about religion. The think tank bigots are just better at exploiting that than we are. We simply ignore it."

Some in Repug party claim we race bait.

I say we don't cry racism enough.

Some claim that we scream nazi too much.

I say we dont scream Nazi enough and apologize when we do.

See what I'm getting at?

The right and their think tank networks; which now set policy, frame the debate on the nightly news and in print media, and write talking points memo all go back to the 1964 civil rights act. The current Republican Party's message all stems from Nixons southern strategy where this whole mess began.

I'm assuming you know all about this.

Anyways.

The bigots that started this mess are still the movers and shakers in the movement.

Understanding what the CATO institute, American Enterprose Institute, Heritage Foundation, Pioneer Fund etc. are up to is important when figuring out what direction to take this party.

Being able to strike back at them is imperitive to establishing platforms and engaging in debates. The problem with Democrats is simply this;

"KNOW THY POLITICAL ENEMY"

You are not batteling the christian right per se. Rather you are batteling bigotry!!!! That effects everyone of all stripes.

Reading about it and understanding it will make or break everything you try to do. It has already labeled Gore as a pathological Liar.

It has changed Kerry from a War Hero to a "Flip Flopper" and a "Fraud".

Know what creates the news and establishes reality.

A great place to volunteer or just read;http://mediamatters.org/

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[More Than A Feeling]

11. Those are tough questions

Do you feel that way about religion and religious people in general (as your title indicates), or just those with whom you politically disagree with?

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[inthebrain]

16. THere have been a lot of atrocities committed in the name of religion

Columbus wiped out a whole race of people in the name of spreading xtianity.

The crusades still leaves a sour taste in mouth of many of those in the middle east today.

The inquision and the Salem witch hunts also come to mind.

THe bible was also used to justify slavery.

The realy question is that by propping religion up on a pedestal we are setting our selves up. Keep in mind that there are many on the right that sees our foray into Iraq and Afghanistan as a holy war.

We should be calling them on their bigotry and using these historicle examples as a reason why we dont want to go down that road again.

[undeterred]

17. Read the DU rules in detail

and be careful about using the broad brush when you post on this topic.

Be specific in your arguments, especially with regard to who you mean by "us" and "them".

And please remember that this is an intellectually sophisticated forum, so you don't need to point out the obvious.

[inthebrain]

18. Can you point out where I broadbrushed?

I havent.

Fact is, we have one political party catering to religious bigots. Why do we need two?

Falwell and Robertson are both bigots. Ever hear their reasons as to why 9/11 happened.

As is Phelps.

Stating a fact, when it is in fact true, relates to the discussion and addresses the direction of both political parties is not against any rules.

The Republican party and their embrace of fanatics, should in no way influence the direction, or discussion of how democrats shape policy. These people are in the minority.

ANd stating atrocities that have come at the hand of religious orientated politics and govenments is in no way over the line.

[undeterred]

19. How about "all religion is pure evil"

Your post which was deleted because it violated the DU rules.

Honestly, it doesn't get much more blatant than that. There are lots of people of various faiths who are members of DU. We aren't evil, and we don't think our religious beliefs are either. Saying that on a public messageboard is inflammatory, at the very least.

[inthebrain]

20. That wasnt my post

But thanks for pointing fingers.

I guess.

[Guaranteed]

9. I agree that we shouldn't be debating actual religion with the fundies.

The details are beside the point.

What's important is that no matter WHAT they believe in for their religion, it doesn't belong in our government. They can just forget it. Period. And that's what we need to let them know.

[inthebrain]

13. Exactly

If they want to discuss religion, there is church on every street corner in America for them to do that.

We dont need it in public schools. Wasting tax payer money to teach creationism is fucking hairbrained when they can learn it for free.

Its important that Democrats embrace issues that effect EVERYONE!!!

Rising Rents

Rising housing prices.

Corporate welfare.

Media Deregulation.

And salaries that have been in decline for thirty years while the wealthy gat fat. The christian right is noting more than a smoke screen away from these issues.

[azoth]

22. Absolutely.

Religion is a matter of faith. I don't care in WHAT or WHOM you place your faith - that is a personal matter that every person must choose in their own heart.

However, government and public policy is NOT a matter of faith. I don't understand why it's so hard for the "faithful" to *get* that.

[inthebrain]

25. And moving away from faith.....

I think there is a lot to how faith is shaped by politics these days as well as the news.

Neither get down to objective truths anymore.

It's a mjor problem.

My point in posting this thread is to get people to think outside the frames of what has already been set up in the 04 elections. Progressives and Democrats alike have a lot of ammo from which to work from. The trick is to utelize those issues and but the right on the defensive.

As long as we go about the xtian argument we will always be on the defensive.

[dave29]

30. religion tastes like chicken

which reminds me, which came first the athiest or the egg?

[BiggJawn]

31. I really dislike seeing Christianity in the news.

OK, so I can forgive them a little during "Pope-A-Palooza", but Cover articles on Newsweek and Time about religious matters? "The Search for Jesus" or whatever they call it on Cable that they run like they used to run "The Robe" around Easter in my youth? Only they don't limit it to just Easter season anymore.

Why? Because the more you see something on Teeee-Veeeee the more mainstream it becomes. How long before the talking heads on CNN start going "Praise GAWD!" and "bless His wunnerful NAME"?

Then after that comes the Great Murkan Atheist Smoke-Out....

"Every KNEE shall BEND, Every HEAD shall BOW"...

If that doesn't frighten you a little, well, then, I guess I'm engaging in a pig-singing lesson again....