Is it possible that Plame was not covert even though her work was?

[The Night Owl]

Just thinking out loud here...

Perhaps Novak's blunder was not revealing Plame's identity, but rather revealing Plame's association with the CIA.

For all we know, Plame may have been a CIA agent who secretly worked on WMD counterproliferation while pretending to work on something else.

[shraby]

1. No matter what Novak thought, the CIA considered

it a crime and asked for an investigation which tells me she was undercover.

[Cassandra]

2. If she were not covert...

the CIA wouldn't have insisted on the investigation and the grand jury wouldn't have let the investigation go on. Notice we're still investigating.

[The Night Owl]

9. Just to be clear...

I don't doubt that the Plame case is a criminal investigation. I'm just raising the possibility that the leaking of Plame's identity might not be the focus of Fitzgerald's investigation.

[H2O Man]

23. You are both correct, in a way ....

The first witness at that the grand jury heard was from the Agency. Within a very short time, any question relating to her status were absolutely, without ANY chance of error or misunderstanding, clear. She was a covert operative who investigated the sale of WMD components under NOC.

However, the leaking of her identity is not the ONLY focus of Fitzgerald's investigation. That is because grand juries can be structured in an open manner, that allows it to include other issues that are related to the original intent.

[rodeodance]

3. Boston Globe says she is covert.

Reporter ties Cheney aide to CIA story
Time identifies chief of staff as 2d source

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2...

By Diedtra Henderson, Globe Staff | July 18, 2005

WASHINGTON -- I. Lewis ''Scooter" Libby, Vice President Cheney's chief of staff, was a second source for a Time magazine article that revealed the identity of a covert CIA agent, the magazine reported yesterday, undercutting repeated White House denials.

For two years, the Bush administration has said that neither top presidential adviser Karl Rove nor Libby was involved in identifying Valerie Plame, the covert CIA agent first named in a July 2003 article by syndicated columnist Robert Novak.

Last week, Rove, Bush's deputy chief of staff, was identified as a confidential source of Time reporter Matthew Cooper and that disclosure led to some Democrats calling for Rove's resignation while others pressed for the revocation of his security clearance. The disclosure also resulted in the White House no longer denying Rove's involvement and instead declining to comment because the matter is under investigation.

[The Night Owl]

4. Let me put it another way...

Perhaps the crime that Fitzgerald is investigating is not the leaking of the fact that Plame was CIA, but rather the leaking of what Plame did at the CIA.

[endarkenment]

8. You are allowing yourself to be spun

down the rathole of digressions that the disinformation machine is trying to send you and the rest of the public. The CIA filed a complaint based on her covert status. Her husband has publicly stated that she was a covert CIA agent. Fitzgerald has an ongoing and serious investigation initiated on the basis of the CIA complaint. Stop. They are just trying to confuse you and you are buying into it.

[The Night Owl]

10. You are preaching to the choir...

I am the one who created the following list of questions...

If Plame’s identity was not secret, then why did the CIA request an investigation into the leaking of her identity?

If Plame’s identity was not secret, then why did the DOJ agree with the CIA that the leaking of Plame’s identity warranted an investigation?

If Plame’s identity was not secret, then why didn’t the person who leaked her identity come forward?

If Fitzgerald is not investigating a very serious crime, then why have judges allowed him to pursue his case?

If Fitzgerald is not investigating a very serious crime, then why have judges allowed him to threaten and jail reporters?

If Fitzgerald is not investigating a very serious crime, then why has his investigation required the President of the United States to retain a lawyer to help him answer questions?

[Rex]

22. Either one could be considered treason.

nt

[LSparkle]

5. Even the lawyer representing her and Joe Wilson didn't know

He said she seemed like a suburban mom to him -- working at some energy company -- and he's known them for years.

[ScamUSA.Com]

6. even IF she drove to langley every day, doesn't mean she wasn't under cove

I dont know the specifics, but as an example, being a secretary at the CIA could have BEEN her COVER.

[rodeodance]

7. nytimes talks as if she was covert.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/18/politics/18rove.html?th&emc=th

Reporter Says He First Learned of C.I.A. Operative From Rove

By LORNE MANLY and DAVID JOHNSTON

......It can be a crime to knowingly name a covert officer for the Central Intelligence Agency. Mr. Rove's supporters have argued that he did not know of her history as a covert operative and questioned whether she remained one under the statute.

The Justice Department opened a criminal investigation into the leak in September 2003. But with pressure mounting on the administration to appoint an independent counsel, Attorney General John Ashcroft that December recused himself from the inquiry, and Patrick J. Fitzgerald, a federal prosecutor in Chicago, was chosen as special counsel.

Under federal law, prosecutors and grand jurors are sworn to secrecy. And while witnesses are free to discuss their testimony, Mr. Fitzgerald has asked that the witnesses not comment. Administration officials have heeded the request.

Mr. Cooper did not, instead providing a glimpse inside an inquiry engulfing Mr. Rove, the quintessential Bush insider who is on the cover of Time and Newsweek this week.........

[Just Me]

11. The leak and/or conversion of government docs could lead,...

,...to lots of places.

The malicious leak (for political revenge)of a CIA operative and operation, which directly impacts national security is a crime and it involves the conversion of a government document (in this case, the memo/write-up on Wilson and his wife, which was "classified" and may have contained FALSE information *LOL*), which is also a crime.

Conspiring to cover-up the conversion of such a document is a crime. Obstructing the investigation is a crime. Committing perjury is a crime, too.

Heck, if the GOP "talking points" memo was used to cover-up or obstruct the investigation, I suppose that could be a crime, too!!!

[KC21304]

12. She may have not been performing undercover

activities at the time because she had very young twins babies. But even if she never intended to go back in the field, or whatever they call it, it still would be a crime to out her because of the danger to anyone she had worked with in the past, to say nothing about having the front company she worked for completely blown.

[Karmakaze]

13. How can we expect the general public to understand...

when even people on DU, people who by being here should be better informed, don't know simple facts like the fact that Plame was fully covert.

There are two kinds of covert agent - Official Cover, that is people who are placed in roles such as working for the State Department at foreign embassies and who have, therefore, diplomatic immunity.

The more recognisable kind of covert agent is the Non-Official Cover. These are people who have NO public links to the CIA or American government in general, who work at legitimate or front companies, and who have NO diplomatic immunity.

As such they have NO legal protection if caught spying and can be executed.

Valerie Plame was a NOC agent working for a CIA front company called Brewster Jennings and Associates. She was NEVER publically linked to the CIA until the Bush admin (Rove and whoever else was involved) leaked her identity.

Thus, not only did they expose one covert agent - they exposed EVERY covert agent linked to Brewster Jennings. That is why the CIA has taken this so seriously.

Of course they are trying to minimise the damage by keeping tight lipped, but remember MORE THAN ONE covert agent was exposed. EVERY agent linked to Brewster Jennings is now burned, and every source they had is also likely now burned.

[The Night Owl]

15. Don't lecture me.

I'm just asking questions here. There is no need for your hostile and condescending attitude. We should be able to come here and put all possiblities on the table without people getting bent.

I'm not saying that Plame was or wasn't covert. All I'm saying is that maybe... just maybe... the focus of Fitzgerald's investigation is not the leaking of Plame's identity as a CIA agent, but rather the leaking of what Plame's role at the CIA was.

[endarkenment]

19. OK but it is difficult to distinguish

what you are doing with what 'they' are doing: piling up diversionary questions to distract everyone from the rather simple facts of the case. Maybe the focus of the Fitzgerald investigation is Rove's fondness for buggery with adolescent male baboons, but most likely the investigation centers around the vindictive intentional deliberate and treasonous blowing of Ms. Wilson's covert status.

[Karmakaze]

21. First of all I didnt mean to sound condescending - Im sorry.

I just get frustrated when I see the same errors over and over again.

Secondly - there is no doubt whatsoever that Plame was a covert agent. The doubt the media and the right wing are trying to raise is whether she fits the definition as required by the Act, which defines a covert agent as someone whose link to the US government is a protected secret AND who has served overseas in the last five years.

It is the second part of that definition that is in question, NOT the first - it is possible from public reports at least, that plame has NOT served overseas in SIX years, thus not qualifying under the ACT.

However, this does not mean she was NOT a covert agent.

The thing is, OTHER agents who ARE serving overseas have also been identified by this leak by way of their association with Brewster Jennings.

Therefore, Plame may NOT be the identity that was compromised that is the centerpoint of the investigation.

[rodeodance]

16. thanks for the information--but your tone could be improved.

[SemperEadem]

14. My understanding is

It doesn't matter what she may or may not have been working on. Speculating about an agent by a high ranking member of the government to another person is a crime.

Perhaps Rove did it because he knew his boy * wasn't going to press any charges or do a damn thing about prosecuting him. Maybe * gave him the green light to proceed as he did. After all, *'s mantra has been "if there were a leak then the leak would be "taken care of" and criminal charges would be filed."... on the one hand, he's not lying: he is taking care of Rove, but he's doing it the way in which he wants to and damn what all y'all think.

[rodeodance]

17. my guess is that rove acts on his own--I do not expect Jr to think on his

own.

[TorchTheWitch]

18. You just described a covert agent

For all we know, Plame may have been a CIA agent who secretly worked on WMD counterproliferation while pretending to work on something else.

Note the words "secretly" and "pretending" that you used. A covert agent can use their real name... depends what their cover is. Obviously, the covert work that Plame was doing didn't require her to use an alias NAME... her WORK was covert, therefore, she was a covert agent.

Look at it this way...

Let's pretend that Britney Spears works as a covert agent on some secret undertaking for the CIA, but her COVER is as an entertainer. We know her real name, we see pictures of her all over the place, we know all kinds of personal stuff about her, etc. What we DO NOT know is that she works covertly for the CIA. How she could be outed is not revealing her NAME or COVER occupation as an entertainer but her IDENTITY as a covert agent.

Here's another way to look at it...

Let's pretend that Judy Miller works as a covert agent on some secret undertaking for the CIA, but her COVER is as a journalist for the New York Times. We know her real name, we see photos of her, we know some personal stuff about her, etc. What we DO NOT know is that she works covertly for the CIA. How she could be outed is not revealing her NAME or COVER occupation as a journalist but her IDENTITY as a covert agent.

As long as Britney and Judy are only identified by their COVER identity, we'll never know whether or not they work covertly for the CIA although we know their real names and real faces... we only know what they DO by their COVER, so if either of them or both of them should happen to be covert agents working on some secret mission for the CIA, they're still safe.

[nadinbrzezinski]

20. My god, not only have yuo described a covert agent

but what plane did