Any anti-Clark folks watch the NH talk?

[phegger]

I'd be curious to hear reactions.


-ph B-)

[mhr]

1. No TV

I am neither for or against the man.

All information from print media.

I have serious concerns about his voting record and ties to corporate America.

[w13rd0]

2. I'm interested in seeing the NH event...

...and the clip where he praises the neocons. I hate RealPlayer though, anyone have any other venues or streams?

[phegger]

3. I imagine it'll be on Cspan.org at some point...

Can you use other media players to view it?


-ph :smoke:

[phegger]

4. Interesting...

that none of our usual Clark-flamers have responded, which might mean:

1) they didn't read this post, fair enough, OR

2) they would rather talk about something the man said two years ago than listen to what he says now.

Should I not be surprised?



-ph :smoke:

[w13rd0]

5. I don't consider myself a Clark-flamer...

...but I'm not a supporter, and am rather suspicious, but I've liked what he's had to say for the most part.

[jumptheshadow]

6. The folks who question Clark

They didn't show up in the New Hampshire threads either. Funny, isn't it? :)

Let's make some distinctions, though. Some folks post serious and intelligent reservations and questions about the Clark candidacy. They make very constructive contributions to the discourse. Others simply hurl epithets or one-liners or paste together out-of-context quotes that don't stand the test of close scrutiny.

[phegger]

7. When I said flamers...

I was thinking of a few specific folks.

There have been a lot of thoughtful comments, pro and con. Just when I start thinking this place is a nuthouse, they restore my faith. :)


-ph

[clar]

8. I'm glad to hear you say that

because I have some reservations about Clark, but I feel restrained about expressing them for two reasons. The first is that many criticisms of him have been over the top and I didn't want to add to that, the second is that I've seen even reasonable criticisms treated with scorn.

[bowens43]

10. Words are cheap.

I am more interested in what he has DONE then what he has recently SAID (actions speak louder then words). We have records for all the other candidates. They have a track record. The little that we do have on Clark shows him to be a supporter of the Republican party. I don't know what the man believes. His actions have said one thing, his mouth another. He appears to me to be an oppertunist. If he gets the nomination, he'll get my vote but I think we have better candidates then Clark.

[JVS]

11. You know that thing about words being cheap

"If he gets the nomination, he'll get my vote"
That statement there just made all of your words worthless because they are no longer backed up with an action. You can criticize and complain till the cows come home about how we can have better candidates, but until you are not willing to vote for a worse candidate your lamentations will fall on deaf ears.

I do agree with your words though.

[JohnOneillsMemory]

23. I'm not anti-Clark or pro-another candidate. Be skeptical of words only.

It is annoying how rude and partisan many exchanges between DU'ers are as if scorn and sarcasm were useful in a dialogue. That said...

Conflicted doesn't begin to describe my reaction to the man and the candidacy of Wesley Clark. I posted Kucinich's outting of Clark as sign-ed on advisor to the security paper telling Congress to buckle down for a 5 year $245 billion occupation and the ensuing posts were not pretty.

I caught the last 15 minutes of Clark in NH and couldn't believe what I was hearing. He spoke brilliantly and said all the right things and seemed genuine. Amazing words, dirty past. I think this is what we're enduring from the Compassionate Conservatism cabal, right? Hmmm. I don't know.

If a brilliant man puts most of his ability to dissent in storage for a career, what kind of shape is it in when he retires? Does he use it with all his strength to make up for lost time by playing saviour? Or is it too flexible and musty to be used in the direct sunlight? I don't know.

Does working within and for a fascist militaristic machine make you the best candidate to temper it's appetite when you retire? I don't know.

I'm going to keep looking and listening and sharing.

[Renew Deal]

30. More cheap words from Kucinich...

He made an off hand remark. What is he talking about? Where is the proof? What was clark's role. I wouldn't call a baseless remark from a candidate an outing. Where's the evidence?

[eleny]

29. Words are cheap - epiphanies are not

Clark has said that it's been very difficult to make the transition to where he is now. Going against the office of the commander in chief when he spent a lifetime in the military was hard. But when he saw where the president was going and where the Republican Party is taking the country now, it went against what Clark can accept. Remember, he already voted for Clinton and Gore. So this didn't happen a month ago. He split more than a decade ago.

To me, this is a profound thing. I've seen folks in my family change from R to Dem and they were passionate about it. The country starts veering off a path and you have to leap from the runaway train, join the other side and in that place, you do what you can to fix things.

I believe that Clark, who knows them from the inside, is a tremendouns threat to the right wingers that they're going ape-shit over him. Rush *is like an ape in a cage lobbing his own feces. Day after day it's non stop desperation. They know Clark's the antithesis to their ideals and they see Clark's popularity zoom as GW's plunges down the chocolate speedway - ker-flush, gurgle and then the awful silence.

All that's going to be left for the R's is the silent stealth of Diebold. And even there, Bev Harris' book will be coming out. Like Mike Malloy asserted last night - if the administration tries to steal the next election, it's going to be like when the Rumanians ousted Causescu. When I heard that I was frozen in my chair. And for me, voting for anyone else but Clark has no meaning.

[bearfartinthewoods]

9. i saw part of it just now on cspan but was busy with AM chores

and wasn't really paying close attention.

i saw the opening where he declared he is for education, for the environment and a few other meaningless phrases. someone asked if he would treat pain sufferers the same way bush does re: medical marijuana and his answer was no. what does that mean? that's all he said...one word..no.

i sort of tuned out after that. if he got more involved in answers later, i missed it.

[59millionmorons]

12. Anybody who watched that with an open mind

are likely Clark supporters now. Of course alot will have watched with a closed mind and it would'nt matter how good he was. Oh well there loss.

[jonnyblitz]

13. oh please. anybody can give a good speech and say anything.

I have learned to watch what people do more than to listen to what they say. Especially politicians. I don't know why you CLark people insist on insulting people who don't fall in line.

[59millionmorons]

14. Thanks for proving my point

:toast:

[jonnyblitz]

15. oh come on. I said nothing negative about CLark in my comment

I am referring to his supporters. ANYBODY can give a good speech. His was good that I watched. The comments in your post are what i took issue with. Anybody that listens to his speech and doesnt support him has a closed mind. If everybody jumped to support somebody because they gave a good speech we would be in trouble. I believe it takes a bit more than that..Good try though. Some of you Clark supporters don't do your guy any favors.

[59millionmorons]

17. Anybody that listens to his speech and doesnt support him has a closed min

My point is some people are never going to support Clark because they are firmly in one candidates corner. It wont matter how well he does they will never give him credit.

[JVS]

18. What a crock of shit! Your mind is closed on supporting Clark.

Try this on for size: Anyone who listens to Kucinich and doesn't support him has a closed mind.

[Pepperbelly]

24. so ...

did you listen to the speech or not?

[JVS]

25. Maybe. It doesn't matter one way or another. The statement is bullshit.

Claiming that anyone who hears the speech has to support Clark or they are closed minded is an preemptive-adhominem argument. It would be like me saying "If you don't think that Clark is a GOP plant, you are being closed-minded"

[PA-DEM]

26. Knowhere does he say you have to support Clark

He is saying some people will never accept Clark because they are already solidly behind their favorite candidate. People here are scared to death that Clark is about to run over there favorite candidate. Hence the attacks on Clark questioning his loyalty. If your in denial of that then thats a weaknest of yours.

[JVS]

27. Did you see post 17, that wasn't him, but he was defending that post

So phhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhtttttttt!

[PA-DEM]

28. that was a paste from post 15

nt

[JVS]

31. Are you familiar with the way this message board operates?

I was originally calling BS on the poster of 17 who asserted that anyone who does not support clark after the speech is closed minded. Then pepperbelly wants to know if I had heard it, which is irrelevant because one does not need to hear a speech to know that the original assertion is bunk. And then you butt in and tell me that peperbelly never said that. Well thanks sparky, what a cunning intellect you have! Great to see the Noobs for Clark campaign is still in full swing.

[PA-DEM]

36. Im sorry

I thought this was a discussion board, I didnt realize we had to ask you for your permission to respond to your post. And for your info post number 17 didnt say that either. It was cut and pasted from post 15 he was just highlighting it. Sparky

[PA-DEM]

35. Of course not

You have people like this JVS person who will never take the time to hear Clark. Thats why people like him will be sitting around wondering why his candidate lost.

[jonnyblitz]

20. well, it was a good speech.

But I need to take many more things into consideration besides one speech. I don't believe that makes me close minded. I don't support anyone in particular yet btw.

[union_maid]

19. You're right but giving good speeches is vital

People who want this administration out have different goals. There are still some here who have great hopes of reforming the entire system into something like a social democracy. I'd love to see that, but it ain't going to happen in this decade. Maybe in several. There's another view and I think it's valid. There's the view that says a convincing leader can take the miserable failures of this administration and turn them into a Democratic majority. That will move the entire discourse to the left a bit. That in turn will give the views of everyone to the left of center more traction. That's how the right did it. The difference is that in Clark, we who support him, feel we've got a leader with both credentials and charisma and huge intellect to boot and that will take us farther than anything else. That and the fact that Clark is going to come out at least as liberal as any top tier candidate.

[jonnyblitz]

22. I will tell you what I like about Clark.

I like the idea of a progressive ex-general running for president. Based on his positions on the issues I would say he is progressive. That juxtaposition just irks the right wingers since they always claim to own the military. I am not sure if this is a good reason to be for him or not but I am attracted to that. I just take issue with some of his supporters the same way I did/do with some of the exciteable Dean supporters.

[Cheswick2.0]

16. I am not a Clark fan or Flamer

I am not comfortable with the idea of him as a candidate for many reasons. While I thought he did a very good job,(he was very good at answering questions, very comfortable) it did not change my misgivings.

[MoonRiver]

21. Pro-Clark here, but the General just blew me away. I love the guy.

My husband had never heard him give such a long speech. He was amazed at what a grasp of the issues Clark has, and how progressive his views and policy plans are. We are both totally sold on Clark. :loveya:

[Kahuna]

34. You should have seen him today in NH...

So warm.. So sweet.. So endearing.. I believe that he is doing this for US because we asked him to. He wants us all to be partners in rebuilding the American Dream, ala Clinton. Today solidified it for me that regardless of his past relationships with repukes he is a born-again progressive and wants only to do the right thing for all of us. There is no sense that there is anything in it for him.

[Kanola]

32. I am a Dean supporter

but I also like Clark alot(second choice) and was impressed by what he said at the town hall meeting. Sorry I like him too much to even think of flame festing him. If Clark wins the nom I will gladly work to get him elected.

I can see why the RWINGERS are running scared. Clark can beat Shrub

[Kanola]

33. I am a Dean supporter

but I also like Clark alot(second choice) and was impressed by what he said at the town hall meeting. Sorry I like him too much to even think of flame festing him. If Clark wins the nom I will gladly work to get him elected.

I can see why the RWINGERS are running scared. Clark can beat Shrub

[Capn Sunshine]

37. I'm not "anti=Clark" per se

I am mildly annoyed by the Clark devotees. That's understandable.Many of them are mildly annoying. I'm sure they think the same of Dean supporters.
But in answer to your question, no I didn't see it.

Here's my hope for Clark: I hope he kicks ass, and makes some killer points. I hope he's a fiery orator who gets anti-Bush soundbites into the major news loops. Because its the American people that need to hear this. Not Dean supporters. We alredy have our guy. But I think all candidate shold stay in the race for the combined purpose of kicking Bush's ASS regularly.