I'm 28 years old. I have a PhD. Two masters degrees.

[Kraklen]

I play Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas.

I paid Rockstar Games fifty of my hard earned dollars and in return I got hours and hours of high quality entertainment. What Rockstar does with my fifty dollars is up to them; but I'd like them to spend it on things like covering the costs of production, R&D for new and improved games, and paying their talented and highly skilled employees who can then go on and buy the things that they find entertaining.

What I didn't pay them fifty dollars for was so that they could spend it on millions of dollars of attorney's fees that they need to pay because they're being harassed by some seedy congressperson who cares more about his or her reelection than the Constitution of the United States. This is censorship, that's all it is, and I sure wish the fence sitters would recognize that.

I know, "it's about protecting the children, won't somebody please think of the children." Yeah, yeah. Bullshit. I don't believe it. Not for a second do I believe it. It's the same old line that the Harry Potter burners are claiming. It's not about kids, it's about the irrational fear that somebody somewhere may be having fun. Put a sock in it, Cotton Mather.

If it is about the kids, just for the sake of argument, put them up for adoption. You must be horrible parents. If you're raising your kid with the TV as a baby sitter, and you suddenly find one day that you're kid has been running over cops instead of counting with big bird, it's your own damn fault. Maybe your teenager is taking his allowance and going down to the mall and lying about his age and buying a copy of an M-rated video game behind your back. It's still your fault. First, you've raised you kid to be a sneaky lying bastard, I didn't do that. Second, it's your responsibility to be checking behind your kid's back. Not mine.

But I really don't think that's the problem.

And stop telling other parents how to raise their kid. "Oh, I here that Johnny Smith's parents let him play that Grand Auto game, they must be horrible parents." You know what? I don't go around telling people how to raise their kids. God knows I could. I could say, "can you believe their raising their little Suzy in a home where censorship and ignorance is considered morally acceptable, I'm worried that my kids are going to grow up in a world where their kids were raised that way." But I'm not going to say that.

Oh, and one last thing. Cut the phony elitism. You know what I mean, "video games are mindless, useless, blah, blah, blah." You're not even an elitist, stop trying to be one. I am the elite. I know elite when I see it, Helen Lovejoy, and you ain't it. If the last time you played a video game it was Asteroids and 1982, stop pretending you know anything about anything. You're just embarrassing yourself.

So can we please leave the book burning to the fascists?

And that's all I got to say about that.

[kliljedahl]

1. Nice rant, should be a LTTE

Keith’s Barbeque Central

[Goldmund]

2. Fuck yeah

Couldn't agree more.

[Helga Scow Stern]

11. I second that!

What a distraction, going after someone's entertainment, while the very real sinning and immorality goes unchecked.

[fhqwhgads]

70. reminds me of george carlin's line...

"now they're talking about banning toy guns...and they're gonna keep the f****** real ones!"

[jane_pippin]

112. I love that quote! It applies to so many "solutions" these days, eh?

Another good one stemming from his "7 dirty words" bit being played on Pacifica radio and offending a Reverand, who of course, sued the station and George:

"I got news for ya Reverend: There are two knobs on your radio. One of them turns it off and the other one--changes the station!"

[AuntiBush]

144. Really. Couldn't Agree More & Great Starter Post there!

As they debate the Patriot Act (all Republicans voted for it - even 1 that said he was ashamed to be a Republican), we can no look forward to everything being read. Just heard mention of client/lawyer emails, phone calls and correspondence, and books from libraries and the ones you buy at stores.

Sneak & Peek might back for 10 years. Thank your local Republican.

Oh, and "now" you're living under true Fascism-Dictatorship.

Sickening!
Disgusting!
Vile!

Fed-the-hell-up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This is not my America any longer.
And Bush can go to F-in hell!

[catzies]

194. You nailed it: "a distraction." The "culture wars" are FAKE!!!

:thumbsup:

[ArkDem]

3. You are really special.

[Tux]

331. Special?

Just because he has some degrees? Don't knock higher education. It is worth while...as long as you are a Christian. Stupid KY. :rant: I don't need to be a Christian to attend grad school. Thanks.

[ewagner]

4. Bravo!

one of my many favorite lines:


..."can you believe their raising their little Suzy in a home where censorship and ignorance is considered morally acceptable,...

[Angry Girl]

5. Well put! n/t

[SouthernDem2004]

6. I am a Police Officer and I play GTA. Its just a game. I have no

idea why Sen. Clinton is jumping on the bash games bandwagon.

[mark11727]

13. ...same reason Tipper went after rappers.

...so's progressives don't look "soft".

[Debi]

17. D'oh

Beat me to it...

[BamaLefty]

270. And Hillary Now

[bennywhale]

22. Yeah but you're an adult. Children's brains are still developing and they

develop with outside stimuli (used to be from parents not sure anymore) so if a kid spends his/her formative years simulating murder everyday i think it will make a difference.

Simple answer, just like alcohol and cigarettes and driving cars, there are certain things you are only free to do in a society when you are an adult.

[merh]

29. And if their parents let them do it, then the parents are to blame.

Just like cigarettes and alcohol and driving vehicles, it is up to the parents to be parents and prevent them from using the objects that they consider harmful.

Censorship is not the answer and it definitely is a distraction.

[bennywhale]

59. All i'm talking about is not letting kids get them through age restriction

Jesus chill out

[merh]

72. Dang.

You sure discuss things well. :hi:

[ultraist]

65. "Censorship is not the answer"

Exactly! What a waste of time and a distraction to push for more censorship, of VIDEO GAMES, no less.

It seems to me, that DEMOCRATS should keep their priorities straight. Why aren't they investing their time and resources in ensuring our children are FED, HOUSED, and provided adequate medical care? With a 22% CHILD POVERTY RATE, video game censorship should not even be on their to do list!

BTW, if Hillary is so concerned about video games, why hasn't she mentioned the racist KKK game that was released?

[merh]

75. And I just love your comment and this should be our mantra!

Why aren't they investing their time and resources in ensuring our children are FED, HOUSED, and provided adequate medical care? With a 22% CHILD POVERTY RATE, video game censorship should not even be on their to do list!

Hey Hillary and other leaders in Congress, why aren't you really concerned about our Children??

[nadinbrzezinski]

153. Because that game is almost undeground material

it is not for sale at wally mart... now is it?

[Hippo_Tron]

410. Damn straight, Hillary is concerned for our children, like Bush is

That is, she's concerned about appealing to "values voters" and pretending like she cares about children.

[Occulus]

41. blah, blah, blah.

Nothing you posted stands true for me or anyone I know who is also a gamer. I think other gamers I know would agree as well.

You're wrong; these games do not affect a chil'd development in any real, substantive way. You are simply speculating, and I am done accepting the speculation as even potentially valid. It's a smokescreen, plain and simple; all you want to do is take these games out of childrens' sight and mind.

Sorry. As a parent, that's your job, and I have no responsibility under the sun to help you or sacrifice anything at all, in any way, including access to the material. You have no right, even as a parent, to even attempt to claim that you have a 'special privilege' to place roadblocks in my path when I am pursuing my happiness.

If you don't want kids playing these games, keep them out of their sight. Do not try to ask me to do it for you, and don't you dare restrict my access to the material in order to do so.

I've been playing these games since they first became available. I imagined it was one of the bullies that picked on me every single day when I played Mortal Kombat. Does that mean I actually went out and hit him? No. It was a fantasy, and it was so because my parents did in fact raise me to know the difference.

Your first parenthesis says it all. You and those who take your position can't admit it's the parents' fault. I'm simply not going to let that slide any more.

[bennywhale]

57. I'm not a parent but apparently you are neurotic. I

drink and smoke and drive a car and watch movies with swearing and violence and sex in and do other adult things. the fact that the law does not allow children to do these things does not impinge on my freedom in any way.

What do you think i'm proposing.

Oh and "there IS NO LINK..." you say. How do you know. I'm speculating yes because children develop through what they soak up from their environment. If you want your kid simulating murder and mutilation thats fine.

[Occulus]

95. I know you're speculating mostly because I and ALL my friends

and yes, I do indeed mean all, played these games from day one- the very first of the first violent games that came out- and none of us, not a single one, ever went out and got all violent with random (or nonrandom) people. Furthermore, none of the people we knew (and BELIEVE me, your arguments are NOTHING new, at all; I've been hearing this exact thing since I was a kid back in the early '80s) ever went out and did the same. This is true for quite literally everyone we grew up with.

It is 100% upon the parents to see that their child doesn't play these games, and 0% upon anybody else, and it is that way because (I again submit) there is no substantive link that does not involve the parent, and I question completely any "study" that says otherwise, because even if accurate, they mean absolutely zilch, and the effect upon the people around the child as it grows up, given adequately responsible parenting, will be negligible if in fact present at all. I have observed this time and again over the course of my entire child and adult life, and I say NO. There is no substantive link.

(It wouldn't surprise me to discover that gamers, as a demographic group, actually have a lower crime rate vs. the general US population. That would, in fact, make me snicker; I have a feeling it's completely true. No studies in that direction that I know of, however.)

[nadinbrzezinski]

156. Wait becuse they are finally doing the research

now they have come with some interesting results, mostly talking about kids with a particular make up. I am waiting for those studies to be replicated as nay good science requires.... overall waht I expect them to reflect is that there is a small minority of kids, and I mean small minority, who are affected.

As to these arguments on gaming in general would you want to go back to the good ol'd days of DnD (1975 to be exact)...

But they are finally doing the studies... I say wait for the replication

As to lower crime rates I dunno... nobody has done that

[bennywhale]

321. There were no games in the early eighties of the nature

that are around today. Sure you could zap some dots etc but not the realistic and sadistic murder that constitutes todays games. I'm not sure why anyone would want to murder prostitutes and old women (GTA) for fun anyway.

I accept your point about parenting (and have throughout this discussion) but you are arguiong that you would be happy for your child to play games that are ultra violent and sadistic simulating murder.

I think there's enough violence in the world and would rather they were out playing sport.

[Tux]

333. Parents need parents

because children develop through what they soak up from their environment

Shut up and provide that enironment already. Don't expect everyone else to do it for you just because you have a kid.

[Ravenseye]

62. Actually there is evidence

There have been some studies that show that kids minds react to these things differently. They aren't hard wired yet, and so games like this can affect how their minds develop.

Even more reason to take personal responsibility.

There is not a bunch of evidence that letting children watch television before the age of 2 is detrimental to their mental development and can lead to ADD amongst other things. I'm not letting my kids watch television and then suing the makers of Sesame Street. My daughter isn't ALLOWED to watch television. Period. At least until hockey season...

It's MY responsibilty what she does, not the manufacturer of games, or movies, or television shows. Just let me know what's in it, make it available to me, and I'll decide what goes in my mind, and the minds of those I'm responsible for. Don't prevent ME from watching television because YOU can't keep your kids from watching it. Don't prevent ME from playing GTA because you can't keep your kids from playing it.

Period.

[mccoyn]

445. GTA:SA is rated M for Mature, 17+ -nt

[Dora]

34. That disturbs me.

I've seen the game. I've seen the joy my nephews take in playing it (9,11,13).

It's a vile and disturbing game.

To read that you're a police officer that enjoys playing it

(you didn't say enjoy, but why else would you play it)

well, it just stops me cold.

[Occulus]

44. And do you play ANY PC or console games?

Which ones?

[Dora]

94. No.

I don't play video games - tv or pc. I have, however, seen a variety of games played by other people (children and adults), both television-based and computer-based. I have seen enough to know that there are a wealth of game choices out there that aren't based on body count.

As a kid, my idea of a great video game was Space Invaders. Asteroids was too advanced for me. All that movement just made me dizzy. I mention this so that you can understand just how not-a-gamer I am, and then you can take my opinion with the shaker of salt I'm sure it'll need.

[Occulus]

98. And there you go.

Someone else complaining who does not themselves play the games.

"Ban Harry Potter!"
"Ever read any of the books?"
"No!"

:rofl:

Am I the only one who understands that first-person shooters exist because you can't go out and randomly gun people down?

[Ravenseye]

122. Ever Notice It's Not About Violence?

I don't recall hearing anyone complain about games like Battlefield or Medal of Honor, or America's Army...a shooter developed by our own government. As long as you're a heroic soldier it's fine to kill. If you're a space marine killing demons it's bad. If you're a mob enforcer killing cops it's bad. If you're a cowboy killing indians thats....um....bad?

it's all context. Why is killing demon's bad? I thought that'd be good? Why is being a WW2 soldier ok, but being a mafioso bad if in both games you're shooting people in the head?

[Ariana Celeste]

213. "Why is killing demon's bad?"

:rofl:

The man and I were asking ourselves the same thing when we read the review for Doom 3 on some Fundy website after buying it.

You'd think that Fundies would be pleased with a game that revolves around killing demons before they can make their way to Earth... LOL. But apparently the only games they find worthy are the ones they make where you convert the heathens. What was the name of that? Lol. Good to see we aren't alone in that line of thinking!!

:hi:

[Dora]

126. So here I am.

And I'm as entitled to an opinion as you are. (And I stand by my original response that a cop who enjoys playing GTA gives me the creeps.)

1) We don't own a television, so video games aren't an option in that media. If we did have a television, we still wouldn't play video games because we believe they're a waste of time: they're not educational or informational, and they serve only to entertain by perpetuating the win/lose paradigm.
2) About PC games, we're a mac-using household. The last "video" game I played on my Mac was Snood, and that was on a clone that was ten years old. Our eMac doesn't have any games on it, and it's my understanding there aren't many games that will run on Macs.

As well, ridiculing me because I'm not a gamer doesn't wash. I'm sure there are issues on which you have firm opinions, but have no direct experience with. As for myself, here are other examples:

-I don't own a gun and don't want to right now, but I believe in our right to bear arms. (I do know how to use one.)

-I'm pro-choice, but I've never had an abortion.

-I've never been part of any religion, but I support others' right to worship or practice.

Pick something I've said to disagree with, or ignore me altogether. I didn't come here for your mockery.
:grr:

And as for your rhetorical closer.... say what?

[Occulus]

185. Well, you're entitled to your opinion,

but that dooesn't really mean that it's an informed opnion. Did you know you cant rent the consoles at the video store as well as the games that play on them? Sure, it costs maybe a $200 deposit, but if you were really concerned, you would have bothered to at least take the smallest, slightest effort to inform yourself about what actually playing these games entails.

The fact is, you didn't bother. By your own admission, you know nothing at all about the subject of which you speak. You are exhibiting the most dangerous form of ignorance: uninformed ignorance. You quite. simply. Don't. Know. Worse, you never even made the effort, and yet here you are, condemning something which you by your own admission know nothing at all about.

I'm done entertaining those who would do such. You might have a right to your opinion, but it's a woefully uninformed one, and should be looked at with some scorn. All you are arguing upon is emotion, yet this debate touches very technical issues that nongamers just don't get- like what a mod is, how to apply one, and how they're constructed, as well as their purpose.

Those technical issues are lost to you, and it's polluting the argument. No, strike that- it is that very form of ignorance- the woefully uninformed type- that is fueling this entire controversy.

Go rent a console, play a few first-person shooters, play GTA, and maybe a game or two like Riven or Burnout3 or Final Fantasy X or X-2 and then get back to us.

[Dora]

205. Ciao, baby.

Here's the link to my orignal post: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=4156780&mesg_id=4156962

Please read it. Nothing that you have argued here is relevant to what I posted. Issues about availability, console rental, program modification, etc. are all irrelevant responses to arguments THAT I HAVE NOT POSTED.



Have fun playing your games. Go raise your high score even higher. Listen, I see nothing redeeming in professional sports too, but at least with that you have real people scoring real points against a real opponent, in a venue where real people have real jobs vending real chemical-ridden polish saussages to real obese asshats. A video game can't do anyting except get you a high score, and what will that give you in the long run? Satisfaction? Yeah, right.

I left earlier, and I'm leaving again. Just wanted to let you know I got your response. Thanks for nothing.

[Divameow77]

58. It disturbs me

that your nephews are allowed to play it and that is not the police officers fault.

[Ravenseye]

71. Yeah Exactly

I wouldn't let kids play the game, but I love it. It's rated M...For Mature. The ages mentioned aren't 'mature' by any means.

It's like getting angry at Playboy because your 12 year old son went to the store, bought a copy, and jerked off to it. Don't be angry at Playboy, be angry at the store, and take the magazine away from him.

[Dora]

89. Hey, it disturbs me too that my nephews play it.

I didn't say it didn't.

I think it's all f'd up - but I'm a Pollyanna who wishes that people would find something more personally enriching to do with their lives than pretend to kill other people.

[livinginphotographs]

120. Beat me to it.

[livinginphotographs]

123. It disturbs me that you don't know how to read labels.

Despite the fact that the game is called GRAND THEFT AUTO, your next hint should be the label that reads "Mature: 17+"

If your preteen nephews are playing it, well, that's not the gamemakers fault.

Do they drink beer and smoke cigarettes while they're playing it?

[Dora]

134. Do you read much?

My original post said that I think it's creepy that a cop enjoys playing this game, it "stops me cold."

And as far as my nephews playing this game are concerned:

They live 1150 miles away. They're my husband's sister's children, and I saw them play the fucking game a year agp. My husband sat down and played the game with them, and he'd never seen it before. He tried playing the game without killing anybody, and these three boys were screaming at him, SCREAMING, to KILL THAT GUY, KILL THAT GUY, THERE'S ONE OVER THERE, YOU'RE NOT KILLING ANYBODY! WHAT ARE YOU DOING! I was in the room, I saw it, I heard it. It made me sad.

I didn't say it was the gamemaker's fault.

Again, do you read much?
:eyes:

[livinginphotographs]

141. Why does it disturb you?

He's an adult - his entertainment is his business.

Would it disturb you if a bus driver played it? Or a babysitter? Or a teacher? :shrug:

Knee-jerk reactions is what made Hillary open her mouth in the first about something that she's clueless about.

[Dora]

157. Go hassle somebody else

who still thinks this thread is interesting. You know where I stand, and I'm done here.

/yawn.

[livinginphotographs]

160. Hey, you replied.

I didn't think disagreeing with you was hassling. See ya.

[slutticus]

218. What's disturbing, Dora, is that your nephews (9 years old!) are allowed..

...to play this game.


What are their parents thinking? WTF?

I love this game, but I would never let a 9 year old play it. Not for a second.

[mccoyn]

446. I'm so sorry for you.

Unable to distinguish reality from fantasy. Afraid that if you free your mind to experience a fantasy that you will be unable to prevent it from entering reality. Forced to live in a world where so many rational adults seem to be going down this distructive path.

If you ask me, censorship sounds a lot like thought crimes.

[SemperEadem]

451. Your nephew's parents should be talked to for allowing them

to play a game that is clearly marked for adults. Their parents are irresponsible and derelict in their duties as parents.

That game clearly is marked M-- and letting them play that game is no different than handing them $30 and dropping them off at an R rated movie on a Saturday afternoon.. or giving them a couple of bucks to go buy them a pack of cigarettes at the quick-trip.

[fujiyama]

314. I gotta say

I'm a little surprised by that.

But it's good to see that someone in law enforcement understands that video games aren't the cause of all of society's problems.

[SouthernDem2004]

365. You might be amazed...

But must Police play computer games.... When my squad is off we play Halo 2 and other games of that type together. Its fun running around killing 12 year olds. :) In single player games 12 year olds can kick my butt many times. Multi-player squad level games and we destroy them. I think alot of kids would find it funny if they knew they were fighting a squad of Police Officers.

[slutticus]

322. So I have to ask...

...do you shoot at the cops in GTA? :D

Or do you just run from them?

[SouthernDem2004]

360. Shoot them. :) Its just a game....

[ComerPerro]

7. Thank you

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

8. THANK YOU!

Excellent post! I think people need to join us in the 21st century where millions of adults play ADULT video games.

[Bleacher Creature]

9. Totally, completely and 100% agree.

I've got a law degree, a masters and a kid -- and I love that game.

[mark11727]

Well said, Kraklen...

...'specially the "Cotton Mather" part. Heh.

PhD's in which field(s), if I may ask...?

[Kraklen]

16. Not english, I'm afraid.

Medicinal chemistry.

I'm always a bit shy about my writing.

[Occulus]

25. Don't be...

...that was beautiful. A textbook smackdown if ever there were one.

[Kraklen]

35. "textbook smackdown?"

What's that the kids say nowadays?

Oh yeah. Pwn3d!1!!

[Occulus]

42. LOL

[bryant69]

10. Do you think that anybody who is troubled by the content of GTA

is a dinosaur?

I don't favor governmental restrictions on such games (other than the parental guidence labels); but I think, regardless of how fun they may be, they are bad games with bad messages and people shouldn't play them. There's enough real ugliness in the world, why do we need to create more?

Oh, and I don't play Console games, but i play PC games pretty constantly (currently a WoW addict).

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[electron_blue]

21. Ita, Bryant about the ugliness

and about the dinosaur. I find the OP arrogant. Does having a PhD really matter that much to you? Does this make you the elite?

yuck

[Dora]

139. I chalked it up to youth.

It seemed arrogant to me. But many people are tracked from high school to undergrad into grad school into doctoral programs without a break, and thus without any sort of "real world" experience to temper their learning.

The comedown will hurt - the job market for PhD's is just as bad as it is for anyone else who doesn't want to work a cash register.

[mccoyn]

448. I'm another example.

25 years old. Bachelors in computer engineering. I've been working in a medical imaging job for over 3 years. Now I'm the lead programmer on a program used in hundreds of hospitals. I play video games, including the GTA series in my spare time. Oh, I also have never broken the law, I'm about as non-violent as they come and I manage to solve complicated real problems every day. Why am I being persecuted again?

[arcos]

324. Yes, it does matter in this discussion...

See for example:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=4150916
"I've heard plenty of anecdotal evidence that otherwise intelligent adults play these games, but I can't believe that very many fully-functioning grownups will spend their time and money this way."


Recent threads about video games have been full of stereotypes and hostility toward video game players, implying they are all stupid, mindless and couch potatos. That's obviously not the case.

[Dora]

455. Um....

Having two master's degrees and a Ph.D., or any number of advanced degrees, be they JD, MFA, MBA, Ph.D....

does not mean an individual is fully functioning, and it certainly doesn't preclude being a stupid mindless couch potato.
:hide:

[SemperEadem]

456. Conversely

Personal attacks only mean that you've lost your point and are resorting to immature tactics to regain your lost sense of personal power.

[Dora]

462. I haven't attacked anyone personally

So what's your point?

College degrees, whether baccalaurate or advanced, do not mean that one person is less of a couch potato than somebody with no college degree at all.

It smells like intellectual elitism to me. I'll also venture to say that boasting about how many degrees one has is simply unbecoming.

[vi5]

31. Not a dinosaur....

...but I can probably think of other descriptions.

I don't think the OP was saying everyone had to play them and enjoy them. Simply that parents shouldn't rely on other people's legislation to raise their kids.

Yeah, there's ugliness in the world but people deal with it in different ways. If someone chooses to shield their eyes from it and surround themselves with nothing but sunshine and flowers then that is fine and their prerogative. But those of us who choose to cope with that ugliness through fictitious books, movies, games, whatever should not have to do the same.

[SaveElmer]

39. If manufacturers are not disclosing content on their products...

Particularly if it would affect the rating on the game, they should be criticized...

It's not about censorship, it's about full disclosure..

I know there are right wing whackos who think these games should be banned, and I of course disagree with that wholheartedly, people should be able to play what they want...but the consumer has a right to know what they are buying.

[vi5]

88. Yeah, but this was not something you could get easy access to...

..am I wrong about that? You literally had to go to the computer and download some particular type of feature to do this. It wasn't something a kid or person could stumble upon accidentally.

[SaveElmer]

102. Well that is what I do not understand...

I don;t know the technology...

The way I see it is this.

If the mod is what contained the pornoigraphic code, and simply used codes contained within the game to play it...you are right

If the disk had the code with the pornographic content, and you simply had to download the mod to play it...that should have been disclosed!

[Tux]

336. That is the problem

I don;t know the technology...

But you assume to know exactly what is going on. Do you know what a mod patch does? Do you understand that code can be written but ignored by the computer (write some bash scripts to find out)? Do you know that the content in question CANNOT be accessed during NORMAL gameplay? Once you learn how the tech works, things will make sense.

As for disclosure, I never heard anyone bitch to Microsoft that Office 97 had a hidden version of Doom in it. Never disclosed.

[AllyCat]

103. Until every gaming site and magazine tells the kids how to do it...no

[SemperEadem]

452. If the consumer would get off their lazy asses

and do a google search on whatever game they have issues with, they'll find a plethora of information about content, walkthroughs, cheat codes, etc. on every game available.

It's a matter of laziness if someone won't do the research before buying the game. Period.

I'm sick of people having children then abandoning their responsibility to that child and putting it all on society and the government to babysit the kid for them so they don't have to be bothered with the drudgery of being a parent. If you can't be bothered to parent your child, don't have children.

How come is it I did it--responsibly raised my daughter to 21 yrs with no problems---but others can't or won't--but they want to whine through their uninformed ignorance?

[the_spectator]

67. I am against censorship myself, but -

I am all in favor of people being able to say "we don't like this shit" when it comes to mindlessly violent video games, etc.

You are right there is a lot of ugliness in the world. Going for beauty and joy is NOT "shielding eyes" or playing ostrich -- its about the best of humanity.

And people who do things like get off by killing people in video games are not exactly "choosing to cope with that ugliness" in their own way. They are "choosing to cope" with the ugliness by grooving on it!

Its like what is commonly known as "gangsta rap" - the story is that the music merely reflects the violent world that it comes from. It doesn't reflect that world, it isn't reportage -- it celebrates it! It amplifies it!

I don't really want to start a flame war here, but my opinion on the culture of ugliness is, again,
1)I AM opposed to actual censorship, but
2)I strongly support the right of every person to do cultural commentary, and say "we don't like this shit", EVEN IF
3)such statements hurt the feelings of those who groove on the ugliness. Because yes, if you are like that, you SHOULD feel uncomfortable when people criticize the ugliness. We ARE saying that if you're into it, you're stuck, mentally and emotionally, at the 13-year-old-asshole phase - no matter how many "elite degrees" you may have.

This stuff is a pet peeve of mine. And it is GOOD for the Democrats, like Clinton, to make some noise about it now and then: people need to be reminded that YOU DON'T HAVE TO BE A FUNDIE to have issues with trends in popular culture. I'm not a fundie. I'm not even religious, but I'll tell you, when the Janet Jackson Incident happened, I was angry about it: not because - OMG, there's a naked breast on TV -- but because of the context in which the breast was flashed -- Janet Jackson and other performers dressed in black studded S and M fashion, the fact the breast was exposed by Justin RIPPING Janet's clothing -- lovely similated sexual violence there! :sarcasm:

[vi5]

106. There's a simple solution if you don't like it....

Don't buy it.
Don't watch it.
Don't support it.
Don't let your kids buy it.
Don't let your kids watch it.
Don't let your kids support it.

And if you choose, tell everyone within earshot "I don't like it.

Nobody is forcing you to buy, watch, or support it, and nobody is stopping you from saying you don't like it.

But honestly, I have an issue with anyone trying to tell me why I enjoy particular things and/or how I do or do not cope with ugliness or the world around me? Maybe if people who had a problem with this stuff spent half the time they spend going after fictitious violence going after causes of actual violence then the world would be a much better place.

Some of the greatest works of art in all categories are in their subject matter violent and ugly, including great works of literature, painting, film, etc. Some I like, some I don't. But I don't trust any one person or group of people to be the ones to decide which ones are worthy and which ones aren't.

[bryant69]

138. In my opinion celebrating ugliness

does not make you more mature. Frankly such games are childish power fantasies.

But to each their own.

[vi5]

215. I didn't say "celebrating ugliness"...

..I said every person has different ways of coping with ugliness or dealing with it. I don't go around telling people there's something wrong with them if they choose to cope with it by pretending it doesn't exist or that if we all held hands and talked about our feelings more that the big bad ugliness would go away, so I would rather they return the favor and not try and tell me that I'm some kind of cruel heartless or immature bastard if I choose not to turn away.

[bryant69]

220. Whatever justification you want to use

I guess.

[vi5]

226. Well, since I don't need to justify anything....

I'll do just fine, Sunshine.

[Lannes]

12. Its ok for them to play a game with nonstop mindless killing

But show a short clip of some guy having sex and they go apeshit.Dont get me wrong I like GTA but their priorities are out of whack.

[Ezlivin]

130. Death and extreme violence is okay, but show a tit and the bomb drops

It is surprising to see Senator Clinton up in arms over the sexual content when that tiny bit of content is packaged along with copious amounts of bloody violence.

They have everything exactly backward: We should have lots of sex and very little violence.

[CrazyForKucinich]

298. I see breats all the time

Anyone ever watch Babewatch, I mean Baywatch? Blind Date? Married With Children? Fifth Wheel? The Girls Gone Wild Commercials? The hypocrisy of the situation is laughable. While GTA is a popular videogame selling millions of copies, millions of more people tune in everyday to watch(or have watched) the shows listed above and Hellory(i stole this) says nothing about Al Bundy going Nudie Bar to see a little T&A or some girls rip off their clothes for a GGW t-shirt. She is an idiot.

[Debi]

Remember Tipper Gore?

Feels like that all over again.

[SaveElmer]

27. Nothing wrong with what Tipper Gore did...

She was only advocating a ratings system for record albums...nothing more. I see nothing wrong with that, and as a matter of fact I consider that pro-consumer, as I believe consumers have a right to information about what is in the products they buy.

[Debi]

40. I think she went a little farther than just advocating a ratings system

she made a public moral judgment on certain types of music. (I was also in high school at the time any maybe took it harder than I should have).

When did it become the Governments responsibility to educate consumers on what entertainment to purchase? (I do agree with safety standards and drug and food warnings) But the Government needs to teach me how to evaluate music, movies and video games because I won't take the time to evaluate them for myself?

[SaveElmer]

50. Not entertainment...content

I want to know if there is graphic violence of explicit sex on it before I buy it. Doesn;t mean I won;t buy it, but that basic information should be public.

Tipper may have expressed her personal opinions on some of the content...some of which is offensive, but the only policy she called for was a ratings system.

[Debi]

69. To some sex and violence is entertainment

and GTA has been in the news too much for any parent who pays attention to not know that the contents of the game are graphic (and if a parent wanted to know more about the game, why not research it before allowing their child to buy it?).

Tipper Gore was not the nice lady who lived in the house down the street when she went after the recording industry, she was a Senator's wife with the ability to get noticed in the media - I have a feeling her comments in the national news had an effect on Too Live Crew's ability to sell their product.

[SaveElmer]

74. It's her right to express her views...

She did not advocate censorship...only labeling...that is a fact.

And I am glad she did..

As to the game...yes the unmodified version was rated correctly and it is the parents responsibility to investigate. But how are they supposed to investigate something that wasn't disclosed?

Now what I am trying to find out, and what seem to be in dispute is whether the porno came from the modification, or was already on the game and was simply unlocked by the modification.

[Debi]

85. I doubt that if Tipper Gore was a stay at home mom from

Southern New Mexico the Florida Courts would have even taken an interest in one band's song lyrics, since she was Senator Gore's wife (and then VP Gore's wife) with access to the national media - the Court took it's cues from her. When a person with that much pull equates their personal views with public morals they start a wave of change. (You've probably noticed the religious right and their anti-gay agenda succeeding in the same way today).

It was already public knowledge that GTA had prostitutes and sexually suggestive content within the game as well as the well publicized violent content, that wasn't enough to make some parents question whether or not their children should own a copy?

[SaveElmer]

91. Again...of course Tipper used her influence

That is her right...and I think it ended up in a sensible policy.

As to the content...I do not fully understand how this stuff works, and if the code containing the pornography was not on the disk than it is a different story, but if there is content, easily acceessible on the disk, then that needed to be disclosed.

[Debi]

108. You agree with a person of influence using that influence

to attempt to make an entire counter-culture illegal? That's scary. It's also interesting that a person who had no problem using illegal drugs and having premarital sex when she was younger didn't see the hypocrisy in attempting to make music with swear words in it against the law. (I guess the 'do as I say not as I do' philosophy is best)

As long as we all listen to Andy Williams, wear saddle shoes and play Yahtzee for entertainment after watching the Lawrence Welk show on TV (but not past 8:00 P.M.) that'll work.

I'd rather be allowed to make my own entertainment choices (and not have the courts or legislature do it for me).

[SaveElmer]

118. You are lying about what I said...and about what Tipper did

She expressly did not advocate making ANYTHING illegal...sha advocated a ratings systems for music albums...that is all..

ANd incidentally, that is what we have in place today!!!

If you are going to make arguments on this...make them on the facts!!!

[Debi]

She used 2 Live Crew's song 'Me So Horny' as an example

which prompted two state courts to outlaw the song and the live performance of the song. When the group performed the song they were arrested. All cases have been thrown out, all laws have been changed. NOW, but when Tipper was on her rampage censorship was alive and well. You can say she didn't do it, but if she had not named that group and that song, would've Florida and Georgia reacted that way? The 'unintended consequences' of her battles for labeling (and her placing her own morals as the bar for which society to strive) were the courts placing limitations to the Constitution. Pretend that she only wanted the little stickers on the record covers all you want.

(BTW, this came about because she let her daughter purchase a Prince and the Purple Rain album without paying attention to the contents - when she heard the song 'Darling Nikki' she got mad that no one had warned her about the pornographic content of the music - maybe she should have paid better attention to what she was allowing her children to buy rather than what the entire country was doing)

[SaveElmer]

158. You are blaming Tipper for what Georgia and Florida did ?

Please...Georgia and Florida are responsible for what they did...

Just because Tipper criticizes a groups songs does not mean she was advocating censorship (which she wasn't)...it means that Georgia and Florida did something they wanted to do all along anyway...

It's like saying if a politician is pro-choice they are responsible for every abortion that takes place...


And you notice now that we do have a sensible labeling system in place, Tipper is no longer on her 'rampage'...if she was a moral zealot on a censorship rampage I think we would have heard from her by now. From my perspective, content is no different now than it was before. The only difference is that now we know what is in the album before we buy it. Thanks to Tipper we are now better informed consumers!!!

As to her daughters listening to the Prince song...exactly how was she supposed to know what was in the content?

Does she need to buy every album and screen them first? What she wanted...and what she got, and what makes sense is the labeling system that is in place.

[Debi]

169. Once again, the courts took their lead from the Vice-President's wife

not just some random person, a person with great political power and the power of the national media. (not unlike how our administration uses the media today and the courts follow suit)

As for Tipper paying attention to what her children were buying, YES, it was her responsibility, they were her children. She doesn't have to screen every album sold, but should look into the album her children want to purchase. Rather she decided she shouldn't be responsible for researching what her children listen to, the Federal Government should take that responsibility off of her hands.

I wouldn't say we're better informed consumers, now we're just spoon fed information that we should have been responsible enough consumers to seek out in the first place. (What's next, legislating against how clothing is worn? Oops, already happening).

[SaveElmer]

187. Again..exactly HOW would a person go about finding out

the contents of an album without listening to that album first? The record company? Seems unreliable...where?...not everyone has internet access or can afford to download songs to screen...

I'm sorry Tipper was not so powerful she could force rulngs down a courts throat...provide evidence for this. SHow me where the courts blindly followed Tipper Gore's lead. And even if they did, that is their failing, not hers.

And yes...it is entirely appropriate for a person like Tipper (whose power I think you are overrating) to advocate for what she believes in. She did not threaten, coerce, or do anything illegal or immoral. She was however, very persuasive. More power to her


And yes we are better informed consumers. And there is no legislating against anytying related to album content...there is no restriction on content...there is simply information as to the type of material is contained in the album. Information, as a parent I am very glad to have.

It's no different in my mind than knowing what ingreidents are in food or what type of material is used in clothing. It's information...nothing more.

[Debi]

212. Fine, fine, fine, fine

Politicians don't influence the Courts in any way...it's just a mere coincidence that rulings follow what the politicians are advocating in the media.

You've convinced me. I have been wrong all along. I must go write my apology letter to Tipper Gore right now. There is no such thing as abuse of political power for a personal agenda, I'm a fool to ever think such a thing would occur.

We are better off to have the Government tell us what to watch and what to wear and what to listen to and who to listen to than we are attempting to determine it for our selves. And there is no other way to find out about the content of a movie/record/video game than to purchase it myself, thank God for labels! I would not be able to ask a question of any other person (clerk at the store maybe???) to find out if they know what is in side that cover.

You may agree with what Tipper Gore accomplished with her restrictions, I hope you agree with all those who aspire to use their position to do more restrictive things. One stone out of the wall, soon the entire wall will come down.

[SaveElmer]

228. Why can't you argue your position without resorting to falsehoods...

Is your position so weak you have to distract from it with blatant falsehoods and misleading statements?

Lets take it one by one

"Politicians don't influence the Courts in any way...it's just a mere coincidence that rulings follow what the politicians are advocating in the media."

I never said that. Aside from the fact that Tipper Gore is not a politician, politicians influence the courts because they pass the laws on which courts must rule. Therefore they do influence. WHat I dispute is that some campaign by the wife of the junior senator from Tennessee forced courts to suddenly lose their grip on the law and blindly follow her lead, which is what you seem to be implying. If you can provide me specific evidence of a court being improperly influenced by Tipper Gore, I am all ears!!!

"You've convinced me. I have been wrong all along. I must go write my apology letter to Tipper Gore right now. There is no such thing as abuse of political power for a personal agenda, I'm a fool to ever think such a thing would occur."

For a second I thought you had seen the light...but alas you were being sarcastic. Of course I never said that politicians have'nt abused political power for a personal agenda. One need to only look as far as 1600 Pennsylvania AVe for evidence of this. What I dispute is that this is what Tipper Gore did. She used the power of persuasion (absent any evidence of improper coercion by her or Al), to institute a change in policy regarding the labeling of record albums. Totally proper, and admirable in my view.

"We are better off to have the Government tell us what to watch and what to wear and what to listen to and who to listen to than we are attempting to determine it for our selves. And there is no other way to find out about the content of a movie/record/video game than to purchase it myself, thank God for labels! I would not be able to ask a question of any other person (clerk at the store maybe???) to find out if they know what is in side that cover."

Of course I never implied or said the government should tell us what to wear, to listen to, or anything else. WHat I have said, is that as consumers, we have the right to know what is contained in what we are buying...that is all. As I have pointed out, the current labeling program has in no way censored content. One need only to look at the lyrics in works by some of the most popular artists to see that.

So as a parent, before I allow my child to buy an album, I should be required to find a person who has bought the album and listened to it (presumably another parent), or ask the pimply faced clerk at the record store (who may or may not have listened to that album), or just hope the lyrics are printed on the cover someplace. Not good enough...sorry!

Yes...thank God for labels...gives me an idea of what is in the album, and whether or not I want to let my kid listen to it...it at least narrows the scope of the research.

"You may agree with what Tipper Gore accomplished with her restrictions, I hope you agree with all those who aspire to use their position to do more restrictive things. One stone out of the wall, soon the entire wall will come down. "

Tipper Gore did not accomplish the imposition of restrictions. There is no restriction of any kind on the content of any record album. What there is, is a disclosure of what is contained in that album...nothing more. No stone has been removed, I just now know what kind of stone it is!!!

[Debi]

308. No, I have no links to court

orders that state that Mrs. Gore used any influence she had to sway the court's opinions. I surrender. I believe the wife of the Vice-President of the United States does have political power. You do not. I believe the wife of a nationally known politician is herself a politician if she decides to use the power she has to force an action to take place (So Hillary Clinton was not a politician until she decided to run for the Senate?). (politicians don't make laws - the legislature does - a person does not need to be elected to office to be considered a politician).

We are going to continue to disagree on this because we disagree on whether there was an abuse of power. (Her actions may have brought what some think is good, I think it's a closer step to censorship and I think that it usurps a parents responsibility...no, I don't have a link to my thoughts and opinions).

You agree with the end result this time. If you don't agree with the end result next time you have only yourself to blame because you applauded the behavior initially. I still believe she went overboard with her behavior...I believe the courts followed suit...I don't think labels on records are necessary, that it's the parents responsibility to police the content of our child's entertainment by whatever means necessary, not the federal government. And I don't agree with Tipper Gore, Hillary Clinton or anyone other than myself as a parent determining whether that content is appropriate.

You can have your labels to spoon feed you, I'd rather use my own mind and judgment - not someone else's values and idea of morals.

No, I don't have a link.

[Tux]

338. LOL

"Again..exactly HOW would a person go about finding out the contents of an album without listening to that album first?

Big city fancy stores have them computers that can play them CDs in part before you buy them. It's like the future is here today.

[catzies]

214. I really like your last point. "Pay attention to what your children are

doing, more that what the entire country was doing." I'm definitely going to use that.

I have a theory on stories that we are told are so important, when they're really not (eg missing pretty white girls). They might be individual tragedies, but when everyone gets worked up about them, they feel that with their outrage and indignation they've actually done something, but in reality they have done nothing at all.

[Debi]

219. I don't have a problem with the desire to see labels on explicit lyrics

I just don't know that creating the fervor that was created because the parent wasn't paying attention was the right way to go about it.

And we went too far before this thing got corralled.

So video games are in the spotlight now (and state legislators are making laws about clothing)

Chisel away at individuals rights under the guise of 'protecting' us.

Doesn't make sense to me (but either does the new Prescription Drug bill - privatizing Social Security - the Iraq War - Karl Rove still having his job) but at least the Government is making sure I don't by music with dirty language it in!

[catzies]

225. Right you are! Wanting a warning label as a proaction doesn't make up

for the inaction in the first place.

"Creating the fervor that was created" as a strategy worked for them then w/albums, and will work for them now w/video games.

And in the meantime real problems continue to go unaddressed.

[Tux]

337. Damn

Yup, Tipper did a great service. Kids couldn't buy certain CDs. Guess what? My dad bought me Andrew "Dice" Clay CDs for Christmas when he asked what I wanted. He did mention the sticker and I said that it was to tell parents that it wasn't for 10 year olds. Great Christmas gift.

Problem still lies with parents. Maybe we need a law so parents actually have to be parents for once and not rely on gov for every little parenting issue.

[trumad]

14. Every time I go to Blockbuster

My 12 year old ask me if he can rent Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas? AND every time I tell him no. That's what a good parent is supposed to do. Now when he's an adult, I could care less what he rents.

[livinginphotographs]

147. That's a great idea!

You mean, we're allowed to tell little Brittany and little Dylan "no" once in a while? Shocking! :sarcasm:

[Occulus]

15. Thank you.

Thank you, thank you, thank you. That so needed to be said.

Mind if I simply use this post as my standard default reply to the video game bashers? It says everything that needs to be said to them.

[Kraklen]

18. Be my guest.

I intend to.

[The_Mule]

19. You would think

that it wouldn't take a Ph.D. to realize that a video game is a work of fantasy and does not necessarily portray actions that are appropriate in real life. :sarcasm:

When do some adults lose their ability to discern fantasy from reality? My 4 year old loves Mario games, but she knows he's not real. She's not going to jump off the roof trying to emulate him. Surely anybody old enough to buy GTA could also make the distinction between fantasy and reality.

[electron_blue]

24. We are what we meditate

[The_Mule]

46. That was too brief for me to understand.

Are you suggesting that playing of violent games begets violence? Are you saying that a Doctor of Philosophy shouldn't be philosophizing about video games?

:shrug:

[electron_blue]

61. Sorry - I meant focusing on violent games for hours on end

surrounds yourself with violence, and becomes a meditation in violence.

Maybe it's good for you, but most people are adversely affected by such meditation.

I have no problem with PhD's philosophizing about video games. I just hate to see it lorded above everyone else as if it means he's an elitest.

And in case you're wondering, yes I have played PC games, no I don't believe in censorship, and yes I have a Ph.D.

[The_Mule]

90. "Maybe it's good for you"...

Well, I said my daughter likes Mario games. Yes, I have played them with her, but I don't consider it extremely violent. :)

Frankly, I haven't played GTA, so maybe I should STFU about it. I just wanted to put in my two cents about how most people can distinguish between fiction and fact when they are reading, watching, listening, or playing something.

I really don't believe the OP was being elitist about mentioning the degree, just using it to make a point. Since we're passing around our credentials, I got me one of them Ph.D.s, too. Mine's in Analytical Chemistry. I've been surprised to find a large number of people with advanced degrees on DU. What's your degree in? :hi:

[electron_blue]

105. so maybe I misunderstood -

he claimed he was the elite, yes, I know there was sarcasm there, but I also got the impression he meant it.

Some of my best friends are Analytical Chemists ;) Since you asked, my degree is in Physics.

Mario games aren't all that bad, I do have to wonder about some of the other games I've seen my nieces and nephews play, as well as some of my friend's kids. They look extremely violent to me. Yes, the kids know it's fantasy and they don't go around hitting/killing eachother. I still think violence as entertainment has an effect on how people interact with the world. I especially despise violence depicted toward women used as entertainment.

[The_Mule]

170. On second read of OP, I find that you are correct.

It did say "I am the elite"! I guess I skipped that part of the rant. I do think it was meant tongue in cheek.

I do agree that depections of violence towards women does not qualify as entertainment for me. Like I said, I haven't played GTA, so I don't know what's in it. However, I'm not for outright banning, and I agree with the OP that parents have to take responsibility for what their kids are exposed to.

Actually, some Mario games might promote violence. I get so frustrated that I want to throw the controllers across the room! :freak:

Physics - yuck. Can't seem to understand it, even when they mix in some Chemistry. I took Statistical Thermodynamics, and I still have nightmares. :crazy: Hats off to you for making sense of it.

[Divameow77]

64. If an adult can't understand the difference

between fantasy and reality then there is a much deeper issue there that isn't caused by a video game. I know children are more impressionable but my 8 year old plays video games (not GTA or any game rated above T) but he knows the difference between a video game and real life.

[OrlandoGator]

20. I'm 28 with an engineering bachelor's and halfway through an MBA.

I play GTA:SA almost every day and I love it.

[SaveElmer]

23. Sorry...but the adult content should have been disclosed

I don't care what anyone plays, I am certainly not for any type of censorship, and how people raise their kids is their own business, but as a consumer I have a right to know what is in the product I buy...If there was content on that game that was not advertised, and that would have caused it to have a different rating, it should have been disclosed or removed.

[Kraklen]

32. This is why I mentioned "ignorance."

The game is rated. It accurately reflects the game's content.

Your kid might download a pornographic mod for it. Your kid might download a photograph of a woman performing fellatio on a goat.

It's your responsibility.

[SaveElmer]

43. My understanding of the controversy...and let me know if I am wron

Is that there was explicit sexual content that could be unlocked via codes obtained on the internet...and that content was not used to rate the game. Had it been known that content was there, the game would have received an Adult Only rating...

If that was the case this is the manufacturers fault...that content should have been revealed when the game was rated.

[Kraklen]

48. Let me go over this one more time.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4156780

[SaveElmer]

52. Who are you referring to here?

What I didn't pay them fifty dollars for was so that they could spend it on millions of dollars of attorney's fees that they need to pay because they're being harassed by some seedy congressperson who cares more about his or her reelection than the Constitution of the United States. This is censorship, that's all it is, and I sure wish the fence sitters would recognize that.

[SaveElmer]

60. So I am tryingto understand the technology...

It does make a difference, and I am not a gamer...

Is the adult content strictly something downloaded from the internet that somehow is able to use some code in the game to play it.

Or is the sexual content actually in the game, and unlockable from something obtained on the internet?

If it's the former I would for the most part agree with you

If it's the latter, it's the manufacturers responsibility to disclose the content

[Occulus]

79. Once again, someone who does NOT fully understand the incident

The content was removed from the game. Buying the game and playing it from beginning to end as it was intended to be played will not- I repeat, not not not- show you the objectionable content. To do so, one must MODify the game itself, altering (in the PC version example) original game files and substituting custom, user-created content- in this case, an executable file, and MODified game files- for the original content (an act which itself might possibly violate the DMCA, were one to argue a case).

The content was not disclosed because it was not part of the game. What you are braying about is akin to a texture and animation set which ships with Half-Life 2, but is not seen in the actual game itself. Granted, that game didn't ship with previously removed adult content. However, in that game's case, the disc actually includes all the tools necessary to create user content. In fact, there are also free tools outside the package (such as the Gimp in place of Adobe Photoshop) which, when used in conjunction with the tools that ship with the game, can quite readily be used to create adult content for a game that didn't ship with any such material.

This content can then be distributed freely online and played by anyone who owns the game. Hot Coffee was one such mod; it was not intended to be accessed upon release. That much is obvious as, again, it is not present in an unMODified version of the game.

What we're talking about is the difference between something being part of the game, vs. something being simply on the disc. The content in question was not part of the game, it was on the disc; someone else found a way to add it back in, after Rockstar took it out.

There a gulf of difference between what was actually done and what people are saying was done. This, from people who (for the most part) dont know the first thing about modding or what it entails, or even what the word means. :grr:

[SaveElmer]

86. That is what I was asking on my previous post...but

However, a couple article I have read on the topic imply the content was available on games on other platforms (X-box etc)

A quote from the article

Patricia Vance, head of the ESRB, said the board had to act. "After a thorough investigation we have concluded that the sexually explicit material exists in a fully rendered, unmodified form on the final discs of all three platform versions of the game
SO explain to me how the content could have gotten onto versions sold in stores, and onto non-PC versions?

I really am ignorant of the technology and am trying to understand it.

[Occulus]

107. It's ON the disc, but not IN the game.

For the PC, a 'patching' process is involved; one must actually modify the original game files (without, I should add, Rockstar's permission) to acces the content; for the consoles, special hardware is needed and you actually have to either plug it into the console or actually solder it onto the console board- in either case, blatantly obvious to a parent that Something Strange is Going On.

edit: for the Xbox version, the PC instructions are valid. This makes sense, given what the Xbox itself is.

In the PC case, you actually do have to download files from a third party; a responsible parent could use filtering software to block searches for the term 'Hot Coffee patch' or some such. I expect that isn't too hard to do with filtering software.

The scene was probably intended to be in the game, but was eventually pulled from it; it may have been left in the build by mistake, or put there as a 'what we wanted to do' scene, or something. In any case, one must actually modify the game itself using external content not supplied by Rockstar to get to the removed scene.

[mzmolly]

302. Doesn't sound like an accident, sounds like they got busted.

As late as last week, Take-Two had insisted that the sex scenes were "the work of a determined group of hackers who have gone to significant trouble to alter scenes in the official version of the game." Hackers, the company said, created the scenes by "disassembling and then combining, recompiling and altering the game's code."

The scenes prompted an outcry from game critics, including Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton (D-N.Y.), who last week called for a federal investigation into "Hot Coffee."

The Entertainment Software Ratings Board began a review to determine whether the scenes were part of the game's original code and warranted a re-rating of "San Andreas," versions of which play on Sony Corp (NYSE:SNE - news).'s PlayStation 2, Microsoft Corp.'s Xbox and personal computers.

"After a thorough investigation, we have concluded that sexually explicit material exists in a fully rendered, unmodified form on the final discs of all three platform versions of the game," said Patricia Vance, president of the ratings board. "Clearly the rating was incorrect, and it needed to be corrected."


http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/latimests/hiddensexscenessparkfurorovervideogame

[Tux]

342. Simple

Is was disabled.

Look at bash scripts. If I make a simple script like this:
#Updates Linux
apt-get update
apt-get upgrade

The line with # is ignored by the computer. It's a comment. The sex material in GTA was commented out. By doing that, the program ignores the material and uses what else is there. If I modded the game so certain cars were commented out, those cars would no longer exist in the game as it played but the code is still there.

[Tux]

340. Sheesh

The content was disabled. Rating was fair. Next time, ask Rockstar if you can look at the source code. I'm sure they'll help.

[SemperEadem]

454. A google search will give you the information you want

if you didn't do any investigation, that's due to laziness. No one is going to spoon feed an adult. An M on the cover should say something to you. The listing on the package detailing why it has an M rating should say something to you. If it doesn't, then the next step would be to do a google search and find out what you feel you need to know. There are too many sites with information about any game for anyone to claim ignorance about content.

[opihimoimoi]

26. At 64, I still am a Gamer....PlanetSide is my Fave.....Come to Forseral

[CrispyQ]

28. Good rant.

I totally agree about parents who are too busy/lazy to parent properly, so they want to restrict everyone else's freedoms so little Johnny won't be exposed to whatever they find objectionable because they are to lazy to restrict/monitor him themselves.

[merh]

30. Great rant!

Thanks for sharing and ranting.

Nominated of course. :kick:

[jojo54]

33. A Mom's view - it comes down to one thing: parents!

The parental guidelines are good, but that's where it stops as far as the government goes. Once again, STAY OUT OF MY PERSONAL LIFE!

The parents are the real bottom line here. If ya don't want your kid to play these games, DON'T LET THEM BUY IT. If the kid plays it at a friend's house, so be it. You can't tag after them 24/7. But in your house, it's your responsibility, not the governments and nor is it any of their business.

I can't stand these "protect my children so I don't have to" people. Sheesh, this isn't rocket science!

[Debi]

55. They want government interference in their child's life right up 'til

the kid breaks the law (or school rules), then they scream that the Government is trying to run their lives (zero tolerance rules, etc.)

Never want to take responsibility - this ownership society.

[libertypirate]

36. You know if civil war breaks out....

Those who have played video games are going to win. There is research that indicates video games increase hand eye coordination and the numbers of targets a person can track.

On Edit I am 31, no college degree and a self-taught computer systems engineer and self taught systems architect. I have been playing video games since pong, and I earn more then any of my friends paying off their tuition.

[TyeDye75]

37. Excellent rant sir

Helen Lovejoy....lmao

[YOY]

38. I'm 30, MBA from a Top School. Seven Languages

and I do the same.

Right on man.

Now if I could only find a better job.

[TyeDye75]

51. Stop playing so many video games and you will.....lol

:P

[YOY]

54. Sorry not funny

Not in the least.

I've sent out and am sending out incredible amounts of applications but the response (when there is one and I can pursue the reasoning behind my rejections) has been that I have a fantastic education but no experience worthy of their merit.

So now my lack of decent income and medical insurance is all my fault? or moreover all the fault of video games I play on the weekend or in the evenings?

Forgive my lack of humor.

[Tux]

344. Here here

I have a bachelor's in psych (experimental not clinical) and a computer/network technician who wants a 2nd degree in managment (they never lose their jobs it seems). Too bad I attended schools in MI and employers in KY hate that. Godless liberal and all. Shit I hate out economy and idiot red staters.

[YOY]

401. If you go back remember...

to get all you can from your grad schools student job placement. Mine bit royally unless one had a background in workingfor big pharma or IT companies.

Some schools have the education, but not the placement. IT+Managment is a good combo. Regretfully, not much one can do with the psych.

[Tux]

424. Thanks

not much one can do with the psych.

No shit. Since pop psychology became so popular and the public buys it's bullshit "studies" (which most people can't even understand methodology) then try to allow psychs to run their lives. I say, fuck them too. Raise your own damn kids with common sense. I'd never let my kid (I have none for the sake of humanity) play it. I would but they can't unless I was certain they could understand it and I'd play with them to explain it. Not that hard. Just find a couple hours out of your days and be with the kids. Don't be so selfish as to require others to raise your child for you while you get "me time".

[YOY]

453. Sad but true

I also would never let a kid anywhere near the game. Once again, proper parenting coupled with an enforcement of the ratings system would solve any major worries.

btw. I meant no offense at the "not much you can do with the psyche." There are worse boats. I've got a good friend who has his masters and undergrad in theology. (No, he's not clergy.) He's an incredible conversationalist and always has insight into religious methodology. One can talk to him for hours of meaningful conversation, debate, and discussion.

Sadly he can't find squat...in a major urban area no less.

[semillama]

497. Master's degree in Archaeology

and I love my xbox.

Never played GTA aside from trying it out on a playstation. I generally don't like games with a lot of driving, and it was just a little too crass for my tastes.

As far as violence goes, I just finished Destroy All Humans. This game involves taking out pretty much everyone, from teenagers to the highest levels of government, even cows. Am I more likely to hurt someone because of it? Yeah, right.

and fuck yeah, someone with a Phd and TWO masters by the time they are 28 has every right to consider themselves an "elite". That's a lot of work!

[Hippo_Tron]

414. Maybe you could go work for the CIA

Err actually on second thought, Karl Rove might blow your cover and endanger your life to get back at your spouse for telling the truth.

In all seriousness, I can't believe that with seven languages you can't find a job. Out of curiosity what languages do you speak?

[YOY]

464. No CIA please

No insult intended to any agents...but I'm a bit too hippie for their typecast: Former Peace Corps, Kent State Undergrad, strongly critical of bad US foreign policy, and I INHALED when I was a kid (and I'm not going to deny or lie about it.) Like I said, not the type...although I have known some CIA people who are surprisingly LW.

Even if I were I think "Hot Karl" would looooove to out someone like me to further his own interests.

State and US AID are possible...but I hate their enrollment process that has no guarantees and is incredibly time consuming. On that note, I've has some colleagues with high levels of international experience and language skills try for the FSO positions with the state. Of one group that was examined for potential candidates the only one selected for service was a girl who was fresh out of undergrad and with no language skills or international experience whatsoever! It was as if they were purposefully seeking young people who would not interact with locals at site any more than necessary and would act like ignorant Americans. Once again I have known good State people so I'm not bashing the profession. Only an repeated observation.

I'm sticking with the private sector. Even if a low paying internship is all I can get for now. I at least like the people I work with and they appreciate me.


My languages:

1. English (obviously...strong studies in dialects to bolster it)
2. Russian (Good...only problems are with the grammar occasionally)
3. Bulgarian (Excellent..almost no accent few grammar errors)
4. Spanish (asi asi...y solemente cuando yo necisito hablarlo)
5. German (really rusty...but I would embrace an opportunity to restudy given the chance)
6. Swedish (here's a useless language to know...most Swedes know English)
7. Ukrainian (poor at this time...no chance to restudy)

I also know quips (phrasal knowledge) of Mandarin, Arabic, and Japanese...but have neither the time or money to pursue improvement as stated above.

[justsomegirl]

503. Ever hang out at Brady's? :) n/t

[YOY]

510. When it was Brady's

I visited a friend last year (his father is a professor and we were home for the holidays.)

Sadly, as I recall it was no more. Replaced with something else. I recall something corporate...Starbucks I'm pretty sure. I hope my memory does not serve me right.

:evilfrown:

[Ron Green]

45. I got bashed on this topic in another thread, so I'll just ask a question:

What is the government's proper role in the encouragement of a liberal education? The corporate entertainment industry has happily taken over the national curriculum, which is primarily TV, and to some extent, movies and games.

The beating I got elsewhere went something like, "If you can't be a good parent to your own kids, then leave me and mine alone." Lots of libertarian stuff like that.

Once again, though: Are we to leave the creation of our culture in the next century to the corporations and their shareholders? And to the few good parents?

[bloom]

78. "Are we to leave... our culture in the next century to the corporations"

I think that is a valid question.

And actually - I think it's unavoidable and I think the culture is on a race to the bottom - just like wages in Central America. Thanks to the same fascism that the OP hates.

[mzmolly]

330. "Corporatism" is why we are in a race to the bottom culturally speaking.

"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." ~ Benito Mussolini

The OP is defending the corporate mindset. Let's pollute who we wish in the interest of making a buck, and call those that want "regulation" fascists.

Perhaps I'm an environmental fascist too?

[bloom]

390. as if

...people who resist a culture of violence are in the same category as those who wanted to burn the opinions of others.

People would be better off reading books. :)



People are so entrenched in the fascist culture that they don't even know.

Yeah let's all defend the corporate right to sell sex and violence to children.

Let's pretend that if I can keep my kids away from it - they won't be affected by other's kids who are exposed.

Let's all pretend that all of the violence that is expressed affects nobody.

Maybe we should all watch Bowling for Columbine again.

[nadinbrzezinski]

396. Personally having seen enough of that violence

in the flesh (as a medic) I really don't need it, but yes... the corporations can do no harm... I am getting tired of that mind set...

[mzmolly]

466. Right on!

:toast:

[anarch]

47. "Put a sock in it, Cotton Mather." -- haha!

and hear, hear!

[AllyCat]

49. Can't stand those games, but that is my choice not to buy.

I agree with you that if your kid is playing this stuff, and you don't want it, and you don't know it...you need to pay closer attention to parenting your kids. That means making some personal sacrifices to make time for your kids. And I totally agree with the TV as babysitter meme. I call the TV Neglect-a-Child.

[SaveElmer]

77. But what would you say...

If there was pornographic content on the game that was not disclosed to you ? Don;t you think you have a right to know that before you buy?

[AllyCat]

100. Yes, and having done a search on the topic AFTER I posted a reply

I found out what everyone is so mad about. Rockstar KNEW the content was in there and did nothing to disclose it to the ratings board. And the ratings board (ESRB) didn't look very hard before stamping it with an M.

So for that, yes, Rockstar deserves to spend it's hard earned profits on legal fees. They misled the ratings board and the consumers. They did it deliberately and then made up some schmack about how they didn't think players could access it. So why was it THERE, gang?

Jeez.

Outside of that, I think the rating system is fine and can guide parents and guardians in selecting entertainment for their kids. If stores don't enforce the ratings, they should be in big trouble: fines, media attention, and not able to sell rated merchandise.

[WLKjr]

53. Good Rant!

I like it, feel exactly the same way.


If you don't want your kid playing a game like that well then DONT BUY THE DAMN THING! That's what ratings are for.

[mzmolly]

56. How many kids do you have? And do we have a collective responsibility

to children in this society or not?

Part of what democrats believe is that children are all of our responsibility, why would that same philosophy not apply to this situation?

I think games should be rated like movies, and kids should be prevented from purchasing games that have mature content, what is the problem with that?

Further, I think that people who make video games should be upfront about the content.

I don't care what games adults play/purchase period.

I also tire of being likened to a nazi book burner because I want a label on my kids games/music. :eyes:

Edited to add, I am on a posting haitus, but this rally against the so called censors/book burners crap really annoys the F out of me. ;)

[AllyCat]

66. I don't think the OP was against rating the games or having age

restrictions. As a society, we are responsible for all the people in our community. Labels are fine and can help parents guide their kids to good game and media selections. Stores have a responsibility to not sell these things to those underage. If my kid goes to Jimmy's house and plays games, I would hope Jimmy's guardians would be responsible for my kid as well as Jimmy if they are making poor entertainment choices (or at least contact me about it).

[mzmolly]

76. Well, that's how I took it frankly.

Perhaps the OP will clarify? :shrug:

I read it again, and many comments led me to respond. The OP states that concerns are "not about the children" but are about the lack of desire to allow others to "have fun." :eyes:

Sorry but I don't care what any adult does with his/her free time, however I do want to see labels and content posted on video games/movies as an aid to parents in making appropriate decisions.

Adding, I would also like to see games for adults marketed to adults not kids.

[AllyCat]

87. Oddly enough, I went to a search about this topic and found this

Rockstar had put hidden content IN THE GAME that was invisible to the ratings board (or they just didn't look hard enough), but could then be accessed by a patch from the internet. It was apparently a bunch of sex-scenes and Rockstar admitted it was there, but didn't think people would access it (right). So for that, they deserve to be sued.

I think violence is worse than sex for kids anyway. But the fact is, Rockstar misled the ratings board and consumers and is now trying to backpedal. So, they deserve what they get. And I'm sorry people paid money for the game and will now use it to pay for legal fees instead.

However, I stand by what the OP first said: that if your kid is playing this game and you don't want them to, you better put on your parenting hat, kick butt (figure of speech! not advocating violence against kids!), and take names. If you don't, it's your own fault.

Link to story about Rockstar and Clinton:

http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGB1VEJBEBE.html

[mzmolly]

104. I agree with the point that parents are responsible, but how can a parent

make an educated decision, when companies mislead consumers? Also, labeling helps parents to make "responsible" decisions.

[AllyCat]

110. They can't make educated decisions when misled

(although we all did when misled by ShrubCo., but I digress). It is more difficult and I hope I did not imply that I thought ratings were inappropriate. They are a good tool for parents. What I can't stand is the neglect-a-chil parents that don't pay any attention to what their kids are doing. That is how I read the OP's post as well.

We saw different things in the post.

Did you read that AP story? I didn't know the details behind this until I saw that the company deliberately misled the raters about the content of the game. They deserve to pay their profits as legal fees.

[mzmolly]

113. I knew the backround, and I don't get "defending" them personally.

I think the OP ranted in several directions, perhaps that explains how we took it differently?

The fact that there are "ignorant parents" makes labeling and legislation all the more important if you ask me.

:hi:

[Starbucks Anarchist]

383. They technically didn't mislead.

Yes, they didn't disclose the hidden sexual content, but the game clearly has a "Mature/17+" label on the box in plain view, which refers to the actual non-modified content already present.

It's like a movie being rated "R" when it probably should have been rated NC-17. However, you can't be surprised if the movie's content shocks you because it was already rated "R" in the first place.

[mzmolly]

509. No it's like an R rating that should have been an X rating.

But even it it were the scenario you indicate, there is a need to make changes so it doesn't happen again.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

513. There is no X rating anymore.

NC-17 means nobody under 17 is admitted at all. An R rating means people under 17 can go if they are accompanied by an adult.

Unless you meant XXX, in which case what I just said is irrelevant to the matter.

But the problem with the Adults Only rating is that many stores will not carry such a game on their shelves. They should have been honest about the hidden content, but the new rating is taking it a little too far.

[mzmolly]

514. I agree, they should have been honest. If retailers won't carry their

games with the new rating, they'll have to live with it, or settle for a different version of the game.

[Occulus]

408. How about, they play it themselves a few times and decide based on that?

I mean, for Christ's sake- that's a no-brainer!

[mzmolly]

508. Which version?

:eyes:

[Tux]

345. ERSB

Only rates what the game plays. The quesntionable content wasn't played hence an M rating. To find the content, they'd have to look at the source code, teach reviewers (general public) how to read the code, and Rockstar would have to supervise to make sure their copyrights are protected which would take months. If the game doesn't play the material, it's not considered. Someone hacked it and opened it to the game. Big deal. Don't use the mod.

[Ravenseye]

82. Responsibility Begins At Home

Yes we have a collective responsibility, but it's not my job to keep an eye on your kids and what they're doing. I don't know your kids. I watch my daughter, and my neices and nephews, and the neighborhood kids. That's my part.

Games are rated like movies, and the rating is prominent on the packaging. GTA San Andreas is rated M for Mature.

From The Entertainment Software Rating Board website http://www.esrb.org/

MATURE
Titles rated M (Mature) have content that may be suitable for persons ages 17 and older. Titles in this category may contain intense violence, blood and gore, sexual content, and/or strong language.

It's like being rated R. Most stores have policies that you need to be 17 to purchase it. Unfortunately in most places they don't pay attention.

The problem isn't with the game manufacturer, or the rating system. The problem is with parents ignorance about what their children are doing, as well as stores not enforcing their own policies. If a local movie theater was playing R rated movies but letting in 10 year old kids without any supervision, people wouldn't be getting angry at the Production company, they'd be getting angry at the theater.

Oh and I've seen worse on television than some of the stuff in GTA San Andreas.

[mzmolly]

97. Who asked you to keep an eye on my kid?

Additionally some of the comments made by the OP are:

What I didn't pay them fifty dollars for was so that they could spend it on millions of dollars of attorney's fees that they need to pay because they're being harassed by some seedy congressperson who cares more about his or her reelection than the Constitution of the United States. This is censorship, that's all it is, and I sure wish the fence sitters would recognize that.

Our constitution is being threatened?

I know, "it's about protecting the children, won't somebody please think of the children." Yeah, yeah. Bullshit. I don't believe it. Not for a second do I believe it. It's the same old line that the Harry Potter burners are claiming. It's not about kids, it's about the irrational fear that somebody somewhere may be having fun. Put a sock in it, Cotton Mather.

Wrong. It's about "the children" not about someone "having fun." And, I haven't an issue with Harry Potter.

If it is about the kids, just for the sake of argument, put them up for adoption. You must be horrible parents. If you're raising your kid with the TV as a baby sitter, and you suddenly find one day that you're kid has been running over cops instead of counting with big bird, it's your own damn fault. Maybe your teenager is taking his allowance and going down to the mall and lying about his age and buying a copy of an M-rated video game behind your back. It's still your fault. First, you've raised you kid to be a sneaky lying bastard, I didn't do that. Second, it's your responsibility to be checking behind your kid's back. Not mine.

This is so far off base, it barely deserves a reply.

And stop telling other parents how to raise their kid. "Oh, I here that Johnny Smith's parents let him play that Grand Auto game, they must be horrible parents." You know what? I don't go around telling people how to raise their kids. God knows I could. I could say, "can you believe their raising their little Suzy in a home where censorship and ignorance is considered morally acceptable, I'm worried that my kids are going to grow up in a world where their kids were raised that way." But I'm not going to say that.

Who's telling parents how to raise their children? Another strawman.

So can we please leave the book burning to the fascists?

Book burning? Facists?

[Ravenseye]

101. Um

Was this meant in response to my post?

[mzmolly]

109. Uh huh.

Your defending the OP are you not? You replied to my post, right?

You stated that you are not personally responsible for my child, I stated that I agree. However as a society we have a collective responsiblity to one another - thus my support of labeling video games and movies containing mature content.

Glad you think labeling is a good thing too, it appears to me the OP takes issue with it as he/she likened labels to book burning?

[Ravenseye]

115. I guess I'm sorta defending him

But I think there isn't just two sides here. The reason I was confused about the response was that it seemed more of a response directly to the OP not to anything I said.

I'm not directly responsible for your child, but if I were to see them standing in the middle of the road in front of an ongoing truck I'd take responsibility and yank them out of the way. Same as if I saw them playing an M rated game I'd let you know that the game was rated such. So collective responsibility? Sure, but it has limits. If I want to give my 16 year old daughter wine with dinner, if she wants it, that's my business not yours. If I want to let her play GTA San Andreas, that's my business, not yours. I won't let her do either (well ok i might water down the wine a bit and allow that)

Otherwise my response to you was basically saying that what you wanted is already there. The games DO have labels and DO say whats in them. The problem is that the 'powers that be' want games like this banned, not just labeled which they already are. They don't want them at all. I have a problem with that as well.

[mzmolly]

117. Who said these games should be banned?

And, I don't take issue with your making decisions for your child, however we do have to consider the fact that not all parents are "parenting" and that as a society we pay a price.

As for labels, the game mfgr in question was dishonest about the content of a game ie. the labeling, thus the discussion spawned here.

[Ravenseye]

132. We do pay a price

When parents are negligent, it makes my job harder. Still, i'm not going to tell people how to parent, because I won't let them tell me what to do either.

As for labeling I disagree that they were dishonest. The game was just reclassified today to an Adult rating, It was sold as Mature. Most retailers won't carry an Adult game. The part of the game, the 'hot coffee' aspect, was on the disc, but it was deactivated. It was discovered, and then unlocked via a 'mod' made by an independent party. That was illegal by the way to do so. Anyway so now the ESRB is requiring to see ALL materials on a disc, not just the ones accessible. I guess that's fair, but I wouldn't characterize the manufacturer as dishonest.

As far as that though there are games out there far worse than GTA that maintain their M rating. Anyway this action will effectively ban certain materials because people will be afraid of the dreaded Adult rating, just like they're afraid of the NC-17 in movies. Why is it always the sex thing that puts it over the top.

Shooting someone in the head but there is no blood and the head doesn't explode? Teen. There is blood and it explodes? Mature. He doesn't kill anyone but instead goes and makes love to his girlfriend? ADULT FOR GODS SAKE KEEP IT AWAY FROM MY KIDS.

Seems disproportionate. I'd rather my daugter (when she's old enough) have sex than shoot someone in the head.

[mzmolly]

150. Again, who is telling you how to parent? Why the continual strawman?

As for labeling I disagree that they were dishonest. The game was just reclassified today to an Adult rating, It was sold as Mature. Most retailers won't carry an Adult game. The part of the game, the 'hot coffee' aspect, was on the disc, but it was deactivated. It was discovered, and then unlocked via a 'mod' made by an independent party. That was illegal by the way to do so. Anyway so now the ESRB is requiring to see ALL materials on a disc, not just the ones accessible. I guess that's fair, but I wouldn't characterize the manufacturer as dishonest.

I would characterize them as such.

As far as that though there are games out there far worse than GTA that maintain their M rating. Anyway this action will effectively ban certain materials because people will be afraid of the dreaded Adult rating, just like they're afraid of the NC-17 in movies. Why is it always the sex thing that puts it over the top.

I don't think it's the "sex thing" I think it's the combination of sex and violence and objectification that's especially dangerous.

Shooting someone in the head but there is no blood and the head doesn't explode? Teen. There is blood and it explodes? Mature. He doesn't kill anyone but instead goes and makes love to his girlfriend? ADULT FOR GODS SAKE KEEP IT AWAY FROM MY KIDS.

"Makes love?" I'd say that's quite a stretch. I recall watching Tom and Jerry movies as a kid, but they didn't "DO" each other after committing acts of violence, thankfully.

Seems disproportionate. I'd rather my daugter (when she's old enough) have sex than shoot someone in the head.

How bout both? That's what these games offer? Perhaps they can spice things up with some necrophelia?

[TroubleMan]

332. Whoa!!! Hold on there...the game mfg was not dishonest in labeling

The sex was part of a user created mod by a company not affiliated by them. They took the sex part out of it, and there's no way you can access it....no cheat code, no easter egg, no gameplay.

You have to download a user created mod off the internet that puts the sex in the game.

You could do this with any game. If I was technically savvy enough, I could make a sex mod for a Little Mermaid game.

[mzmolly]

349. Not so - read this: Take Two has a history of this slime as well.

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/latimests/hiddensexscenessparkfurorovervideogame

As late as last week, Take-Two had insisted that the sex scenes were "the work of a determined group of hackers who have gone to significant trouble to alter scenes in the official version of the game." Hackers, the company said, created the scenes by "disassembling and then combining, recompiling and altering the game's code."

The scenes prompted an outcry from game critics, including Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton (D-N.Y.), who last week called for a federal investigation into "Hot Coffee."

The Entertainment Software Ratings Board began a review to determine whether the scenes were part of the game's original code and warranted a re-rating of "San Andreas," versions of which play on Sony Corp (NYSE:SNE - news).'s PlayStation 2, Microsoft Corp.'s Xbox and personal computers.

"After a thorough investigation, we have concluded that sexually explicit material exists in a fully rendered, unmodified form on the final discs of all three platform versions of the game, said Patricia Vance, president of the ratings board. "Clearly the rating was incorrect, and it needed to be corrected."

[TroubleMan]

353. I just replied to your other post claiming that article is incorrect and

why it is incorrect.

It's on the disc, but you have to hack it and add some of your own code to play it.

[mzmolly]

357. So?

I know that it had to be "enhanced" but that doesn't change the fact that the mfgr is responsbile for the content.

They should maintain versions that THEY distribute don't contain material they don't want to openly account for via ratings.

[TroubleMan]

361. Hold on now, you could put a "Hot coffee" mod on any game

If I was technically savvy enough I could make a mod for sex scenes in a Little Mermaid game using the animations and sound already on the disc.

Anybody could do this with any game. It just takes the right know-how and determination.

You are going to blame Rockstar because somebody hacked their game?

They took that content out, and a hack brought it back it. There's no way you can play the hot coffee without adding some of your own code and hacking the game.

[mzmolly]

367. They should NOT include said content as they are surely as aware as you

how easy it is to "hack" back in?

However, since they did so, they can live with the ADULT rating.

"Take-Two's Walker said Wednesday that the sex scenes were never meant to be seen by the public and that they were revealed only when an outside programmer, called a "modder," wrote software to unlock them.

"The mod community scratched the painting, revealing the earlier work," he said.

Analysts estimated that modifying and remarketing "San Andreas" would cost Take-Two about $40 million in lost sales. Shares of Take-Two fell 11% in after-hours trading.

"It was a very poor exercise of judgment and a very costly one," said Michael Pachter, a video game industry analyst at Wedbush Morgan Securities in Los Angeles. "It's an embarrassment for management because obviously a maverick developer in their studios decided to put this stuff in there. I can only fault the management team for not putting systems in place to vet their games."

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/latimests/hiddensexscenessparkfurorovervideogame

[TroubleMan]

373. It should have been an adult rating just for the violence

Also, if your programming a huge game like GTA is, you can't just delete stuff. You have to leave it on there or some obscure code reference to it will crash the game or leave it buggy.

This is a HUGE game. I've been gaming for 30 years, and it's the biggest game I've ever played. It takes a whole DVD of space. If you delete a certain section of code, it would take you months (or years?) to vet every other single piece of code to make sure there were no longer any references to it. Hell, Microsoft leaves tons of obsolete code in their OS's just for this reason. It's common practice.

They originally wanted to have this in there, and then changed their minds. They made it so you have to hack it to access it and add some of your own code. It's not an easy hack....no normal kid could do it. The guys who made the mod are very technical and very experienced at creating mods and hacking games.

The bottom line is they made it so there's no way to access it unless you hack it. You have to purposefully go on the internet and download the hack. Once again, you could do this for any program, if you had the time and the know-how.

The game should have been an adult rating because of the violence in the first place...you'll get no arguement from me on that. However, I can't see how you can blame a company if somebody hacks their game.

[mzmolly]

378. Here's how I can blame them >

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/latimests/hiddensexscenessparkfurorovervideogame

"It was a very poor exercise of judgment and a very costly one," said Michael Pachter, a video game industry analyst at Wedbush Morgan Securities in Los Angeles. "It's an embarrassment for management because obviously a maverick developer in their studios decided to put this stuff in there. I can only fault the management team for not putting systems in place to vet their games."

My guess? They'll find a way to avoid this from happening in the future.

[TroubleMan]

382. What you can blame them for is trying to meet a deadline

That's absolutely true. The changed their minds about the content and took it out. However, they didn't take it out enough for hackers not to find it.

Once again...the you can't access the "hot coffee" without hacking it. Rockstar neither made nor encouraged the hack. That was completely done by fans of the game.

[mzmolly]

460. OMG. Perhps the deadline would not have been an issue if they didnt

take the time to add the porn scene in the first frikken place. :eyes:

I don't care if you have to hack it, or find it or sit on your chair and spin clockwise three times - the content was created and made available in one form or another by Rockstar.

[TroubleMan]

385. One more point....the game was out for six months before

the hackers found the content. It was very hard to find and not easily accessible.

[bloom]

392. and once it's found

isn't that information posted all over the web?

[TroubleMan]

400. Yeah, but by people not affiliated with the game

nt.

[bloom]

457. So the company can pretend they are innocent....:shrug: n/t

[mzmolly]

461. So? It was easily accessible after SIX months. I imagine it takes time

for a covert campaign such as this one to make it from kid to kid via word of mouth.

Simple solution for TT - DON'T PUT THE SHIT IN TO BEGIN WITH.

[Kraklen]

119. Since the video game is accurately labelled...

it becomes easy to surmise that this is obviously not about the labelling.

[mzmolly]

127. I understood that the game contained access to content not noted on the

label?

[Kraklen]

131. If you scramble up the letters contained in Harry Potter: HBP...

You can use it to spell out "Catherine the Great was killed while getting fucked by two feet of enormous, sweaty horse dick."

Nevertheless, the book is appropriate for the audience that it's recommended for.

What the child does with the product after they take it home is up for the parents to control.

[mzmolly]

142. How ridiculous. Is that your best argument? It's ok for a manufacturer

of a game rated E, to design content of a mature rating to be downloaded at a later date?

Smarmy corporate profit at any cost! Wooo hooo!

[Kraklen]

167. It is a ridiculous argument. It's moot and silly.

Why the censors are pretending it's valid is beyond me.

[Hippo_Tron]

403. The game was rated M, not rated E

I'm confused as to why it's okay for 17 year olds to play a game where they kill cops and steal cars, but not one where there's a little sex. BTW, if somebody hasn't seen porn by age 17, then they are going to have one hell of a time adjusting to the real world when they are out of the house.

[mzmolly]

470. I'm confused as to why your complaining about the ADULT rating.

The M rating was a criteria for purchasing the game. Even parents making an educated decision would supposedly look up what that rating meant. Perhaps some parents feel that their 15 year old boys can handle the content in M games, but would not want them exposed to Adult games. That's their choice.

And, BTW - most porn is free of murder scenes and beating prostitutes to death. Also, most porn is sold/rented only to adults - as this game should be.

I don't particularilly approve of the current rating system, but it is what it is, and the mfgrs have to deal with that or lobby to change it.

[Ravenseye]

140. The content is called Hot Coffee

Essentially in the game you can have girlfriends. YOu take them out on dates. You go to restaurants, bars, dance clubs. If you go to a club you have to play a dance sub-game...up up, down down in rhythm to the music to have the character dance well. You might take a drive in a part of town she likes. If you've dated awhile, never on the first date, she invites you in for coffee.

Now in the open release it would show the exterior of the house, sound would play, "oh you're the best". Stuff like that. No nudity or anything, just the exterior shot. What some 'modders' discovered though was a 'flag' labeled 'censored'. A Flag is a simple on off switch in code. So they made a program to flip the flag. Hot Coffee.

Now instead of an exterior shot you're inside the girls bedroom. She wears a 'sexy' outfit and performs oral sex on you (from behind, no male nudity). Then, with your character fully clothed, you have sex with the girlfriend. There are maybe four positions, which you can rotate, and multiple camera angles which you can change. None show anything more explicit than a Cinemax late night movie. You then have to hit up and down in rhythm to have sex 'well'. If not you finish too early and the girlfriend gets angry at you, and you lose some standing with her, if you do it well then everyone is happy, and your standing with her goes up. It's actually kind of annoying. I flipped the flag to check it out, but I prefer to avoid that subgame. It's kind of silly actually.

Anyway they disabled it for release, but it was still on the disc.

[mzmolly]

154. Yes, that sound perfectly appropriate for my neighbors children.

:eyes:

Thankfully they keep the mans "jones" under wraps huh? PHEW! We wouldn't want to encourage our young to objectify the male "unit" now would we?

Does the sex happen before or after the murder and theft?

Wish I could say I thought the content was merely "silly" but I see it as far more problematic than that frankly.

[Ravenseye]

161. After the murder and theft

i think you can get away with not stealing anything prior to that point. You start off with a bike that's yours, and you can use your brother's car parked in front of his house. Murder...You have to kill some people prior to that point. AT least before the first girlfriend.

Generally it's easier to just steal people's cars. I used to be you'd just open the door, punch them in the face, drag them out of the car, and then drive off. Now though, some fight back, so it's often easier to just shoot them in the head, let their dead husk of a bleeding body with no head drop out of the car naturally, and then take it with no fuss.

From there you drive over to your girlfriends house, generally much faster than a recommended speed, frequently going out of control, up onto sidewalks and running over multiple poeple left and right. Some survive, but the faster you hit them the more likely they'll die. It's better if you just shoot them though, because then you get to take their money, and your weapon's skill goes up.

Oh but god forbid we see you having sex with all your clothes on. AAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH!!!! BAN IT BAN IT LABEL IT LABEL IT!!! AAAAAAHHHHHHH!!!!!!!

[mzmolly]

171. How disgusting. I said I didn't think it should be banned previously,

I digress after learning more.

I guess I'll have to settle for the "Adults Only" rating though just like the poooor mfgr.

Let's hope all the girl friends all say "yes" to these murderous thugs, huh? After all these guys did buy dinner and kill people before hand, all in the interest of a booty call. :eyes: Perhaps there is a "rape the bitch" patch available for download - in case she really just wanted to have coffee?

I am looking forward to the "Ted Bundy Serial Killer" series myself? I hear it makes a nice holiday gift for those coming of age? Though, to my understanding it starts out as a Reader Rabbit CD, and you have to download the "Bundy Bunny" addition?

On edit, guess I wasn't too far off with my sarcastic comments? See below:

Take-Two is no stranger to controversy. Previous installments of "Grand Theft Auto" have been adored by hard-core gamers but excoriated by parent groups and lawmakers for their depictions of violence and sex.

In one, players could have sex with a prostitute and then beat her to death and take back their money. That game was rated "Mature" because players did not see the sex. Instead, they saw a parked car rock back and forth.

Yes, this is the influence we need more of in society huh?

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/latimests/hiddensexscenessparkfurorovervideogame

As a parent, I'm personally taking note of this company and boycotting any association with them.

[Kraklen]

177. Actually, the first girlfriend...

asks if you would take her on a driveby. She automatically leans out the window and shoots people as you drive down the street.

If you're interested in Ted Bundy, feel free to visit your local library or videostore, there's numerous books and movies on the topic.

[mzmolly]

180. I'm waiting for the video cartoon game personally, it's much more fun!

Besides, I can play with my 13 year old nephew. He's not interested in all that book type library stuff ya know? :sarcasm:

[Kraklen]

186. That's a shame.

Personally, I encourage my nephews to read.

[mzmolly]

199. Well, perhaps you can encourage the video game companies to add subtitles

for download in addition to the deadly sex rampages? I think that would really appeal to the teenage mindset? And, parents could be encouraged that their kids are "reading" as well as being entertained?

~ EXAMPLE:

NO, PLEASE DON'T KILL ME?!

SHUT UP AND DO ME, YOU FILTHY #@!^* HO!

You know, kind of a "kill" two birds with one stone approach? No pun intended.

Adding, I think if you use !#%* instead of real profanity, the mfgr could squeak out an M rating vs. the "Adult" albatross?

:shrug:

Again ----> :sarcasm:

[Ravenseye]

178. Hey one of the girls likes to do drive by's

I forgot to mention that. You take her out on a date, and if you enter 'enemy gang' territory then she asks to do a drive by, and you go slower and she'll reach out of the car and shoot people herself. Another one of the girlfriends works at a hospital and gets off when you hit people or crash your car with her in it. She's a sado masochist I think.

If you take the game seriously then you have a serious problem. If you play it along the story lines, it's violent, but no more so than any R rated Mob movie. The problem, or the thing people like depending on their persepctive, is the open nature of the game. When you finish a mission, you can drive the speed limit in your own car to the next mission and move on. Or you can never go do another mission again, and just run around being absolutely brutal. When the cops start coming after you for killing tons of people, you can easily evade them, and start 'fresh'. The parts of the game that people have the biggest problems with are almost always from the open nature of the game which puts you in a world and allows you to do whatever you want. You're not required to run over people in your car, but there are peopel in a city, and you're driving a car. If you drive on the sidewalk, people are gonna die.

Some of the open ended stuff is benign too. You can drive an ambulance and be a paramedic, you can drive a firetruck and put out fires, you can be a vigilante and hunt down criminals, you can drive frieght trains, trucks, or go swimming off the coast with dolphins.

Anyway, my problem is that people don't hardly blink at the violence anymore, but if someone god forbid has sex then the world is ending.

[mzmolly]

181. Again, this game sounds like a dangerous influence on young minds.

If you enjoy it, so be it.

[Ravenseye]

183. Oh I don't know how much of an influence

but I wouldn't let any children of mine near it that's for sure. People who let their pre-teen, and even teenaged kids near this game need their heads examined.

[mzmolly]

201. Glad we agree on that. However, some parents don't have a clue

Sad for us all frankly, especially our kids.

[Ravenseye]

204. aint it the truth

very sad.

[Kraklen]

184. "dangerous influence on young minds."

Funny, I feel the same way about people who advocate censorship and ignorance.

[mzmolly]

192. Is your "censorship and ignorance" manta supposed to intimidate?

I'm comfortable wanting children to be kept from the "kill the ho" mindset. If you want to call me a censor, a prude, and/or ignorant I'll add myself to the list of reasonable people whom you label as such.

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/latimests/hiddensexscenessparkfurorovervideogame

In one, players could have sex with a prostitute and then beat her to death and take back their money. That game was rated "Mature" because players did not see the sex. Instead, they saw a parked car rock back and forth.

Why is it unusual to demand a company have an appropriate rating? This company tried to skirt the rating by having a download on the internet. You appear to be defending that in the name of so called "freedom?"

[Kraklen]

207. The bold text simply illustrates my "ignorance" point.

I could use crayons to draw a picture of somebody beating up a prostitute and taking her money.

Either in the game or on the paper it's up to the person to decide what they're going to do.

The fact that you've taken this tired old saw about the prostitute shows you've got no idea what the game is about and that you're running on empty.

[mzmolly]

222. Let me see, the game is about theft, murder and gratuitous sex?

Am I right so far?

I'm out now, if you want to defend this mfgr's dishonest/harmful ventures, be my guest.

[Kraklen]

242. Catcher in the Rye?

It involves a teenager. He has sex with a prostitute.

Every year there's some prudes in school boards who want to ban the book. They perennially recite how it involves a teenager who has sex with a prostitute. It makes it painfully clear to everybody that these people have not actually read the book.

As you just did with that tired old saw.

Now if you want to tell reasonable people like me that what you and they are talking about isn't censorship, or even intrinsically different, that's fine. Just don't tell reasonable people like me to believe it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

245. Alas Catcher in the Rye is NOT in the first grade

curriculum either... nobody is taking away your GTA... heck nobody is even advocating it, but this little cute easter egg has given way too much wind to those who would love to.

In fact, worst case scenario, it may lead to Federal Regulation of the rating system that all of a sudden cannot be trusted (take this from the worst case scenario and how loud those folks are)

What part of lying to the SRB was wrong are you missing still? (Oh and did you know it may also be illegal?) Oh never mind in our society nobody, and I mean NOBODY wants to take responsibly for ANYTHING.

[Kraklen]

250. That's correct.

It's in high school.

At least unless the censors win.

Your slippery slope argument about first grade isn't really going anywhere.

[nadinbrzezinski]

254. You know you are missing the argument

there are some things are are NOT age apropriate this is the argument

GTA due to the EASTER EGG left in there by THE COMPANY in the DISTTRIBTUON DISK is not M, but Adult... they lied... It does not matter if somebody else umloked it, should NOT have been left in there... and chances are did not affect the overall function of the game.

That is the part you are refusing to see... in your defense of the manufacturer, I am starting to wonder, do they pay you? You are missing what they did. What they did (LIE) is wrong...

Now personally I would love to see them slapped with fines by the manufacturers as well for what they have done has actually damaged the whole rating system. It may have repercusions far more serious than just you screaming on a message board... unless the industry takes pre-emtive action against this manufacturer. If I know the industry, they will and chances are you will never know. After all these actions are usually kept well inside, you know the dirty laundry washed inside, but they will inform the propper people who need informing. Sad though, all that education and it seems you failed to grasp Ethics 101.

[Kraklen]

260. Apparently you didn't read my OP.

There are things that are age appropriate and it's up to parents to make that determination.

If you don't want your kid to read Harry Potter, fine. If I want my 15-year-old to get GTA for his birthday, it's none of your damn business.

As for the manufacturer, I'm damn glad they did it. It's just the kind of brilliant innovation these guys are known for. One, it's going to sell millions of more copies of the game, and secondly it's forcing the debate. Clearly this isn't a hard debate to win. Video games are protected under the first amendment just as books. I just think it's a damn shame there's a few democrats stupid enough to be on the wrong side.

"Now personally I would love to see them slapped with fines by the manufacturers as well for what they have done has actually damaged the whole rating system. "

Yes, you've made that perfectly clear. What you fail to recognize is that's a textbook definition of censorship.

"That is the part you are refusing to see... in your defense of the manufacturer, I am starting to wonder, do they pay you? You are missing what they did. What they did (LIE) is wrong..."

Nope. They don't pay me. Are you on the payroll of Focus on the Family or some such group?

[nadinbrzezinski]

262. I read your initial post, and I will stand by what I said

Rating systems are there for a reason'


As to who pays me, I am the President of a small company that produces RPGs, guess what what Rockstar did will affect me

[Kraklen]

265. Yes, they're there to tell the buyer what to expect.

Which is what the label on GTA does.

What a label is not there for is to tell the buyer what kind of things their kids might download off of the internet.

The only thing you have to fear are censors. Given that you are one, I'm not terribly upset.

[nadinbrzezinski]

267. I am not a censor, and by the way

what part of they lied to the SRB are you missing? You are justifying lying... did you fail Ethics 101?

[Kraklen]

268. They didn't lie at all.

They told the board exactly what a buyer could expect.

[nadinbrzezinski]

271. Why didn' tthey tell the board that Hot Coffee Easter Egg

was in there?

Convenient, don't yuo thnk?

[Kraklen]

275. It was none of their business.

It had nothing to do with the game as sold in the stores.

[nadinbrzezinski]

282. Again it is in teh distribution disk

it IS their business

[Tux]

354. 3rd Party

The mod isn't made by Rockstar. A hacker illeglaly broke copyright law by making the hack.

[Tux]

352. Really?

What RPGs do you make? Company name would be nice. Do you make computer based RPGs or dice based RPGs? I love RPGs and may add some more to my collection.

[nadinbrzezinski]

376. Look at the sig, will take you there

the first release is on the market today, called Map Set 1

The core product is under editing, called Future Nexus, as well as the setting behind it.

It is a PnP

I also have plenty of credits with pletny of PnP companies....

Want a full writer's resume or should some titles or credits work?

I am not talking out of my ass, as I do have an idea how this is done.

Website, will make it easy

Deistgames.com

Oh and a piece of virtual candy if you actually get the why of the name... for the company that is

;-)

[Tux]

350. Meaning of Easter egg

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=ig&q=define%3A+easter+egg&btnG=Google+Search

Not one definition mentions the need for a mod file. get your terms right.

[Tux]

348. Easter egg?

easter eggs don't require a mod file to be installed to unlock material. An Easter egg is accessible through normal gameplay. Don't confuse the 2.

[mzmolly]

253. Does he beat her to death and steal her money when he's done?

:eyes:

The fact that your likening GTA to Catcher in the Rye speaks for itself.

[Kraklen]

255. And what if he did?

[mzmolly]

261. Depends, did he buy her dinner first?

:eyes:

Here are screen shots from the great literary work ~ now known as "GTA in the Rye?" - :eyes: which not only appears sexist, but racist as well.





So do you pretend to be the white cop or the black perp?

[Kraklen]

263. The hero of the story is the black man.

What's racist is getting upset over a black man having sex with a white woman. I suspect that's a major portion of the outrage over this mod.

[mzmolly]

279. Somehow I doubt that's the issue here.

What's "problematic" is the fact that the mfgr created a download ~ in order to subvert the current rating system. What's more problematic is that our society is endorsing/supporting mindless violence/sexism on so many levels.

Additionally, not one person here wants to subvert your rights as an adult to purchase games with ADULT content - yet you stomp your feet and call accountability/integrity/ethics "censorship."

[Tux]

356. Like talking to GOP

Rockstar didn't make the mod. The gaming community did as they always have done.

[mzmolly]

372. Wrong. RS created the content, claimed hacking, and later back peddled.

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/latimests/hiddensexscenessparkfurorovervideogame

As late as last week, Take-Two had insisted that the sex scenes were "the work of a determined group of hackers who have gone to significant trouble to alter scenes in the official version of the game." Hackers, the company said, created the scenes by "disassembling and then combining, recompiling and altering the game's code."

The scenes prompted an outcry from game critics, including Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton (D-N.Y.), who last week called for a federal investigation into "Hot Coffee."

The Entertainment Software Ratings Board began a review to determine whether the scenes were part of the game's original code and warranted a re-rating of "San Andreas," versions of which play on Sony Corp (NYSE:SNE - news).'s PlayStation 2, Microsoft Corp.'s Xbox and personal computers.

"After a thorough investigation, we have concluded that sexually explicit material exists in a fully rendered, unmodified form on the final discs of all three platform versions of the game," said Patricia Vance, president of the ratings board. "Clearly the rating was incorrect, and it needed to be corrected."

Read the article, it's interesting.

[nadinbrzezinski]

Read this

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/latimests/hidd...

As late as last week, Take-Two had insisted that the sex scenes were "the work of a determined group of hackers who have gone to significant trouble to alter scenes in the official version of the game." Hackers, the company said, created the scenes by "disassembling and then combining, recompiling and altering the game's code."

The scenes prompted an outcry from game critics, including Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton (D-N.Y.), who last week called for a federal investigation into "Hot Coffee."

The Entertainment Software Ratings Board began a review to determine whether the scenes were part of the game's original code and warranted a re-rating of "San Andreas," versions of which play on Sony Corp (NYSE:SNE - news).'s PlayStation 2, Microsoft Corp.'s Xbox and personal computers.

"After a thorough investigation, we have concluded that sexually explicit material exists in a fully rendered, unmodified form on the final discs of all three platform versions of the game," said Patricia Vance, president of the ratings board. "Clearly the rating was incorrect, and it needed to be corrected."

(By the way thanks maybe enough of us post this he will get it)

[wtmusic]

436. nb you are absolutely right

It's clear that Rockstar is deliberately circumventing the ratings rules by providing the egg and probably spreading how to hack it as well.

Maybe all of us parents should learn how to hack to see WTF is *really* in the games our kids buy--or maybe they should be labeled appropriately.

OP, get real. :eyes:

[mzmolly]

475. Here here!

:hi:

[Tux]

347. Consider this

http://www.games-advertising.com/demographics.html

read it and weep. Most gamers are adults. Deal with it.

[mzmolly]

355. Then Take Two can "deal with" putting an ADULT label on their games.

Here are more statistics for you:

Video Game Habits (U.S.)

...

Eighty-four per cent of teens overall play video/electronic games. Ninety-two per cent of boys play games.


Ninety per cent of teens say their parents "never" check the ratings before allowing them to rent or buy video games. Eight per cent say their parents "rarely" check the rating. Only one per cent of teens said their parents had ever kept them from getting a game because of its rating.


Thirty-two per cent of boys who play video games download them from the Internet.


Eighty-nine per cent of teens (91 per cent of boys) say that their parents "never" put limits on how much time they may spend playing video games.


The average teen likes a moderate amount of violence in their video games (roughly 5 on a scale of 1 to 10). Among boys only, the average teen likes a fair amount of violence (7 on a scale of 1 to 10).

http://www.media-awareness.ca/english/resources/research_documents/statistics/videogames/video_game_content.cfm

An adult label on an ADULT rated game should not be too much to ask of game mfgrs. DEAL WITH IT!

[Tux]

388. Better yet

Ninety per cent of teens say their parents "never" check the ratings before allowing them to rent or buy video games. Eight per cent say their parents "rarely" check the rating. Only one per cent of teens said their parents had ever kept them from getting a game because of its rating.

http://www.media-awareness.ca/english/resources/research_documents/statistics/videogames/video_game_content.cfm

How about parents raising their kids for once? Reading a label for 3 seconds won't kill them nor will thinking for once.

[nadinbrzezinski]

404. The argument is not wehther the parents should read the labels

and do their jobs

The argument is that the company did soething wrong but you are willing to put all the onus on the parents... it is a two step game here and you raelize how fascist it sounds when yuo actually imply there is no corporate responsibity in this at all? IF parents do this and that, we woudl not be having these problems....

Ok so if little sussie develops cancer because the corporation is dumping chemicals, we should nto sue them either.. or hold them responsible, beusae the parents should make sure suzie drinks clean water.

[Tux]

420. See it this way

Rockstar left old code in the game that required a 3rd party program to enable. Otherwise, it wouldn't run during the game.

What many of the nanny state supporters want to to censor everything so parents don't have to make any choices.

On the other side, IF parents ever actually raise their kids, not rely on the government to act as a babysitter, and raise their kids for even a day, this wouldn't be an issue.

Yes, Rockstar could have taken the code out despite that it was disabled. Sure, clean code is always better (my bash scripts run better that way, mostly crap scripts) but that content CANNOT be accessed during game play. Have you played the game? I have and I never seen it. Unless someone uses the hack, the content isn't playable. Until recently, I never knew it was there. What is the harm? Compared to pollution, war based on lies, lacking healthcare (for the children's sake), anti-intellectualism, and fundies wanting to destroy America this is, literally, nothing. Just part of the culture war meant to remove more freedoms. Maybe we should burn harry Potter books too.

[mzmolly]

476. Actually ...

Rockstar could have taken the code out despite that it was disabled. Sure, clean code is always better (my bash scripts run better that way, mostly crap scripts) but that content CANNOT be accessed during game play. Have you played the game? I have and I never seen it. Unless someone uses the hack, the content isn't playable. Until recently, I never knew it was there. What is the harm? Compared to pollution, war based on lies, lacking healthcare (for the children's sake), anti-intellectualism, and fundies wanting to destroy America this is, literally, nothing. Just part of the culture war meant to remove more freedoms.

Yes they could have taken out that code, and they should have. In fact, they didn't have to put it in period. Either that or they could have left it in and got an adult label. They knew that doing so would limit their sales, so they found an end around.

And, I find it odd how advocating for properly labeling video games is seen as a threat to YOUR "freedom." :eyes:

I've got bigger fish to fry on the freedom front personally.

And, I believe the party you are responding to is aware of your point(s) as he is in the business.

However, this type of mindless violence shit is PART of the corporate, "keep them scared and stupid game."

Have you seen F-911? Some soldiers acted like they WERE playing a video game, the cranked their music and laughed and got a high from blowing people up. It wasn't even real to them.

Again, I say ... defending corporate irresponsiblity is a BUSH like position.

"Corporate freedom and capitalism are threatened by regulation" ~ sound familiar? That's essentially what you are saying.

This discussion is about the proper labeling of video games - period. The situation has nothing to do with your so called freedom to enjoy whatever you like ~ presuming you are at least 18?

[mzmolly]

465. Better yet

How bout retailers make it worth while for the parents that do check ratings?

As you know "READING THE LABEL" IN THIS CASE MEANT - SHIT.

As you also know the OP said he'd rather his kids hang out with the children of parents who don't "censor" their children.

I wish those defending the corporate video mfgr would make up their minds? Should we "censor" our children or not?

[Hippo_Tron]

417. The game said MATURE on it, 17 and UP

Isn't somebody by the time they are 17 old enough to decide on their own entertainment. God knows they only have one more year before they have to make a lot more decissions than that.

Again, if this were an E rated game or even a T rated game, it might be something that was actually worth bitching about. Senator Clinton needs to be spending her time on better things than bitching about 17 year olds being exposed to sex, which god knows they have seen before they played GTA San Andreos.

[mzmolly]

463. You sound like you have an issue with the ratings system? The game met

the criteria for an ADULT game after the adult content was un-earthed.

Retailers make decisions as to which games to carry based upon said rating. Most won't carry games with the "adult" label, so TT found an end around. They created a game with adult content, marketed it to older kids, then set about spreading the word as to how to hack into the game.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that this was PLANNED, and they got busted.

Additionally, when a parent makes a decision to let their mature 14 year old play a game with Mature content (an M rating) it's based on said rating. If the company wants to continue to find a sneaky way to give an adult game to a kid, they'll have to think twice next time.

Senator Clinton did the right thing, and I hope this company is fined to the extent they don't dare do it again.

[Hippo_Tron]

477. It said MATURE 17+, not 14+

Okay, let's assume that everything you say is true, Rockstar Entertainment screwed with ESRB a little bit to get a Mature rating instead of an Adult rating. I still don't see why this is something worth bitching about. The game was STILL advised for ages 17+. Was it mis-labled? Yes. Was it mis-labled to the extent where Rockstar was selling pornography to kids? Unless you consider 17 year olds to be kids, then no.

Again, if that had recieved an E or a T rating, then Rockstar would have been marketing pornography to kids and that might be something actually worth bitching about. But frankly there are much better things for Senator Clinton to be spending her time and effort on and I wish she would do that. She is certainly going to have to, if she ever wants my vote.

[mzmolly]

483. It's like the difference between a PG movie and an R movie.

I'd like to see a clearer distinction between the M and A rating personally, but we've got the rating system we have in place, and parents are presumably supposed to make decisions using said system.

As I stated one might let their 14 year old play a M rated game, but not an A rated game. In fact, one DU-er said his 11 year old plays this game?!

As to your point about Hillary spending time on other things, I'll give you that. I do think that she can focus on many things at once, but now there are some very pressing issues.

However, look at this thread ... DU-ers could take a bit of that advice and spend time on other discussions as well. Obviously this is a passionate subject. ;)

[Hippo_Tron]

484. DUers aren't elected officials

Hillary has an ability to do things that we can't because she is a Senator. This is also a hot topic because potentially she could be our next nominee. It is important to discuss whether she is fit to be the nominee because if she is, then we are the ones who are stuck with her.

[mzmolly]

486. I'd be thrilled to be "stuck with her" personally.

But it's not gonna happen.

[Tux]

346. Well

We need all turn to Jesus and listen to Focus on the Family. God hates us and baby Jesus is crying. :cry:

Seriously, this sounds like the fundies in my 'hood.

[mzmolly]

471. Well, you sound like a Bushbot.

"Let's allow them poor/honest corporations to regulate them thar selves."

And, "who gives a shit if dumb assed parents let their kids do x, it's every man for himself!"

Sorry, I believe in corporate responsibility, and that translates into how corporate decisions effect our children and our society at large.

[noiretextatique]

258. well, since there's no male nudity

:eyes: i agree with you...it all seems kind of silly

[Ravenseye]

272. lol

There are hundreds of games on the market where you can kill people. Demons, Nazi's, Regular People...You name it. Kill Kill Kill.

You hardly hear a peep.

Show people having sex and they go nuts. This game has been out on Playstation 2 since last year. This bru-ha-ha only came about when the 'hidden' sex stuff came out. Before that they harumphed, after that they went ballistic.

The fact that our society has very little problem with violence and a very big problem with sexuality is a serious issue.

[noiretextatique]

283. agreed

violent...and sexually repressed! a deadly combo.

[TroubleMan]

334. That's absolutely incorrect

You cannot access that content unless you get a user created hack into the game.

[mzmolly]

341. The company claimed it was due to hacking, but evidence indicated

otherwise.

As late as last week, Take-Two had insisted that the sex scenes were "the work of a determined group of hackers who have gone to significant trouble to alter scenes in the official version of the game." Hackers, the company said, created the scenes by "disassembling and then combining, recompiling and altering the game's code."

The scenes prompted an outcry from game critics, including Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton (D-N.Y.), who last week called for a federal investigation into "Hot Coffee."

The Entertainment Software Ratings Board began a review to determine whether the scenes were part of the game's original code and warranted a re-rating of "San Andreas," versions of which play on Sony Corp (NYSE:SNE - news).'s PlayStation 2, Microsoft Corp.'s Xbox and personal computers.

"After a thorough investigation, we have concluded that sexually explicit material exists in a fully rendered, unmodified form on the final discs of all three platform versions of the game," said Patricia Vance, president of the ratings board. "Clearly the rating was incorrect, and it needed to be corrected."


http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/latimests/hiddensexscenessparkfurorovervideogame

[TroubleMan]

351. No you don't understand, that article is factually incorrect

THERE IS NO WAY THAT YOU CAN ACCESS THE "HOT COFFEE" PART OF THE GAME WITHOUT HACKING IT. No way...you can't access it through gameplay, you can't access it through a cheat, and you can't access through an easter egg.

Some of the content was on the disk, but you have to hack it to access it. They originally planned to have the "Hot Coffee" game on there, but they took it out. They didn't delete all of the code, because you'd have to rewrite half the game to delete it. They made it so there's no way possible way to access it (without hacking it).

A group of fans found this content and created a hack that resurrects this content. Also, they added some of their own code to make it work, and to make it nude instead of clothed.

You have to hack the game to play the "hot coffee" game. Anybody who claims otherwise is either misinformed, stupid, or lying.

Also, whenever you install a game, you have to agree to a EULA (end user license agreement). In complicated legal terms, you agree not to hack the game. It won't let you install it unless you acknowledge that you agree to those terms.

So:

A. You have to hack the game to get "Hot Coffee."
B. You agreed not to hack the game before you installed it.

[mzmolly]

362. So what? The hackable content was created by Take Two.

I understand one had to "hack" the game, that doesn't change the fact that the company found a smarmy way around the ratings system.

As to points A and B, you appear to be using that as justification for any hidden content a gaming company want's to peddle? Sounds like a convenient way for the company to try and avoid taking responsiblity. I don't think our law makers will buy it, thankfully.

[TroubleMan]

380. It wasn't hidden, it was taken out....you have to hack it and

add some of your own code to put it in.

The game should have been adults only in the first place, but Rockstar didn't make this content easily accessible. It's not an easy hack, and the people who did it have a long history of hacking games.

You could hack any game and put sex scenes in it. How can you blame Rockstar for somebody hacking the game?

It wasn't hidden content. It wasn't content at all. It was taken out, and hackers put it back in. If it was "hidden content" you could access it without modifying the game. If it was "hidden content" you could use a cheat code, game play, or an easter egg to get to it. ..... but you can't.

[mzmolly]

459. Bologna. Any kid with a PC can hack this game.

It shouldn't have been PUT IN in the first place.

I don't care if you call it hidden or hackable, same outcome.

[Hippo_Tron]

393. I don't think that it is all of our responsibility...

To decide what children see and read. It is all of our job to make sure that children get a good education. It is all of our job to make sure that children have food, clothing, and healthcare if their parents can't afford it. It is all of our job to make sure that children don't live in abusive homes.

However, I believe that it is nobody but a parent's or guardian's job to decide what their kids see, read, play, etc. And video games already have ratings. Grand Theft Auto has a Mature rating meaning that it is recommended for people ages 17+. Frankly I think that 17+ is a little ridiculous. 15 or 16 year olds can handle the content of video games and movies. My point is that this video game has a big giant label on it that says "This content is not appropriate for anybody under 17." So what exactly is Hillary bitching about? The box clearly says don't buy the game for children under 17, so parents shouldn't buy the game for children, it's pretty simple.

[mzmolly]

507. Have you rallied against movie ratings yet?

Mature rating = R

Adult rating = X

That's how the rating system describes the difference. Hillary is bitching because the game mfgr had a game with an "R" rating and had a hack available to make it "X" rating.

[SemperEadem]

468. If we had a collective responsibility to children

then the public school system in this country wouldn't be in the disarray it's in....

The federal government would pour more money into educating children than into building bombs or drilling in Alaska.

Once people start putting their money where their mouth is, perhaps children will have better schools, better education and be better equipped to work in this country, instead of this country looking overseas for brain power.

And here's a newsflash: Games ARE rated. It's just that parents are too lazy to do the research on the internet about the game before they say yes to little Johnny. It's almost like saying 'no' to them is akin to child abuse.

[mzmolly]

506. All the things you mentioned are why I'm a democrat.

I believe in a collective responsibility to children via education, health care and even video game ratings.

Sure the games ARE rated, but this is about having the wrong rating on a game. Apparently you are not aware of the ins and outs of this discussion?

[HootieMcBoob]

63. I think Hillary's right

If the video is full of violence and sex and isn't appropriate for children then it shouldn't be rented, sold or marketed to children.

You're an adult - do what you want.

But I wonder if your PhD and two masters degrees are in child psychology?

No one is saying you can't play the game - so play it!

Personally, I think any parent that allows their young kid to play that game is a bad parent and no amount of ranting is going to change my mind. Part of a parent's responsibility is to monitor what their child absorbs. No child should be playing that game - with or without the sexual content.

From a purely political point of view - I also think Hillary did the right thing. Grandstanding is part of the job. She's appealing to parents in NY State. It just might win her a few upstate votes and to that I say - rock the fuck on Hillary!

[mzmolly]

80. HERE HERE!!!!

:toast:

[SaveElmer]

84. I agree...

She knows what she is doing politically...

And frankly if this ocntent was on the game (as opposed to being on the mod, which I think is not clear), she should have been concerned.

As consumers we have a right to know what is in these games

[cally]

125. My understanding is that the video has hidden porn stuff

that parents wouldn't know about. I support ratings and giving parents tools to parent. I'm not for censorship or limiting what adults can buy. If a parent buys a game with incorrect information than that is wrong. We all know that the teens/older kids will find the hidden material much faster than their parents. When my kids were younger, I would sit with them for awhile and monitor videos and games. Then I would just let them play. I was shocked when I finally realized they were downloading additions from the internet and would find fixes on the internet. I didn't know those existed. I can imagine many parents had no idea of this hidden content. I find it very wrong to add that to the game unless you are aware it might be there.

[spuddonna]

237. 'Constant vigilance'...

Yeah, the actual 'porn' part of GTA:SA is from a 'mod', another program that can be downloaded from the Internet, and used on the PC version of the game. I have no idea if there were any barriers to the kids to get this, such as a 'proof of age' or ID requirement.

But here's the thing, we can pass all the laws we want restricting the sale of games to young kids, but it's going to be the same thing as cigarettes and booze. If the kids want it, they're going to ask someone to go in and buy/rent it for them. If it's on the Internet (lol) ALL BETS ARE OFF! They'll use a BitTorrent program to download it. And it won't need to be on the game site, someone will host it somewhere else!

As a parent myself, I've learned you must maintain constant vigilance... The computers must be in an open area where you can walk through any time you want, to see what your kids are doing, what they're playing.

[Dave Reynolds]

303. It is not hidden within the game.

It is a gamer's hack for the PC version, which must be downloaded and installed.

It has nothing to do with Rockstar's game other than the fact that a hacker used their code.

[Sentath]

309. I'm sorry. But its in there.

http://www.gamespot.com/news/2005/07/15/news_6129301.html

[Dave Reynolds]

310. Thanks for the link,

had not seen that update.

Please excuse my other statement.

[Carni]

168. Hillary did a STUPID thing

With all the grave matters relating to our state of being in this country she takes a stand on THIS crap?

Any parent who is so out of touch with the times as to not know that GTA is NOT for kids is a moron and it shouldn't be MY job as a tax payer (on my dime) to educate them.

Labels are fine and are in fact helpful, but any parent with a half of a brain in their head should know that you can't just slough off the responsibility of raising your kid on some anonymous standards board somewhere.

I watch *questionable movies* that I have not seen, either with my kid (with remote in hand) OR ideally I view them before she does.

That is my responsibility as a parent.

As far as "marketing to kids" I fail to see how these games are marketed to kids...I don't see them advertsied during commercial breaks on Lizzie McGuire, or Spongebob. I see TV ads for these games in time slots where more "adult" shows are being broadcast.
(maybe parents shouldn't let their kiddies watch the Howard Stern show on E or Dave Chappel? Just a thought-)

The original poster is absolutely correct IMO this is an idiotic
non-issue and BTW I am not a gamer just a person with common sense who is sick and tired of all this hoopla over nothing.

The Dem party does not need Hillary (of all people) taking a stand on who is exposing our children to sexually explicit matters.
I like Hillary, I like Bill for that matter but come on now...doesn't this seem just a tad bit hypocritical on her part?

Talk about throwing the right a bone--this has got to be it IMO

[HootieMcBoob]

291. It was a politically smart thing to do

There are a certain number of people on the right, those who listen to Limbaugh and Hannity, who will hate her no matter what and will constantly rag on her no matter what. They're the same people who are always saying that she is going to be the next Democratic Presidential candidate because it riles up their base. Nothing she says or does is going to change their minds about her or anything else for that matter.

In politics a certain amount of grandstanding is necessary. A smart candidate will make a smart choice about what to grandstand about. Because she made a speech about this doesn't mean that she has to drop another issue, she can do more than one thing at a time, she's a smart woman.

She just got the GTA people to put a label on their product and it now can not be sold or rented to kids under 17! She got herself on TV while doing it and she just might have made a few upstate parents feel a little better about her. It's like a two day news cycle thing tops. It's not a big deal to most people.

If she hadn't done it chances are a right-wing Republican would have jumped on it and the people she was targeting would have looked at that person as the candidate who is looking out for their kids. Now those people, probably upstate Republicans, will see Hillary as the person who took on that video game company and saved their children from having their brains warped by sex and violence. She accomplished her goal! She's a very savvy politician. She saw an opportunity and jumped on it.

It was a very smart political move. You might not like it, but then you're not who she was targeting with the move.

People, this is not a big deal. You're all still going to be able to play the game. No one is censoring anything. Relax and look at this for what it is, a damn smart move by a smart politician who even though she is constantly being trashed by the right-wing nutbags is very popular throughout her state.

[Carni]

328. I disagree completely

When I was in my very early twenties Tipper Gore was on her crusade about rock music and I was TOTALLY turned off.

I didn't know what "right" or "left" was and I wasn't a parent and couldn't have given a damn about *obscene* lyrics.

To me it appeared that some goody two shoes politician's wife was trying to ram their morality down my throat.

Years later as a parent I see rating systems (and Tipper)in a very different way but I am telling you Hillary's latest move is not going to garner the Dems any votes with 20 somethings who play these games and are not particularily up on which party is doing what.

I don't think she made a politically savvy move.

[HootieMcBoob]

444. as I said before you (or 20 somethings) were not her target

She already has the votes of Dems in NY State tied up. They are not going to run another candidate in a primary against her and 20 somethings are not going to vote for a conservative Republican, at least most New York 20 somethings are not going to vote for a conservative Republican. Hillary is looking for conservative parents who may have voted Republican in the past and need convincing that she's not the "wild eyed liberal" that the Limbaughs and Tweety's of the right-wing echo chamber make her out to be.

I was a twenty something when Tipper went on her labeling binge. I remember it well, especially Frank Zappa's testimony in Congress. It was a much bigger deal than what we've just experienced. Also, I agree with you that I wasn't for it at the time but now as an adult see the common sense behind it.

This story is over already. But, in making it an issue, for however short a period of time, Hillary scored the points she needed to score. She hit her target dead on.

Republicans jump on these kind of "hot button" issues all the time, flag burning being the most egregious example. Democrats need to take a page from their book as Hillary has done so successfully. We need to see the forest for the trees if we ever want to take control of our country again. Wresting it from the hands of these fascists is going to take political savvy. We need to put aside our differences occasionally and look at the big picture.

Republicans have done it successfully and now control every branch of government. They put aside their individual differences from time to time for a win that will be fruitful for all of them in the long run. You may lose a little today but you win big down the road.

[Carni]

467. I wasn't just talking about NEW YORK

The rumor is she is seriously considering a Presidential bid--I was talking about that not NY state.

[HootieMcBoob]

473. Personally, I hope she doesn't run for President

I like her as a Senator and I'd like to keep her there.

She's red meat for the right. They're drooling over the idea of her running for President.

Hillary's great on some things and she sucks on others. She's a good Senator but...don't run for President please Hillary!

[NEDem]

68. Question?? How exactly,

Do you get past the 'Learning to Fly' level. I can't fly that damn plane and you can't do anything until you fly the damn plane.

Oh, I'm a 37 yr old with 2 BS degree's, and a masters. I love my GTA games.

But damn it they are frustrating at times.

[Kraklen]

73. Practice, practice, practice.

The more you fly, the more your rating will go up. The more advanced your rating, the faster your plane, the sharper the turns, the more stable your flight- you'll be able to get medals easier. All bronzes and you get the either the p-51 or the biplane. Just fly around in those and you'll max the flying skill in no time.

It didn't take me all that long to get all golds. I tell you, the apache's a lot of fun.

[skids]

116. Just keep at it.

That is one of the harder ones. That and the "parrallel parking with the handbreak" and the third phase of the shotgun in the shooting range.

You just really have to get use to when to rudder and when to bank. Oh, and most importantly, remember to work the landing gear on takeoff and landing. It slows you down.

I only have one BS degree. But I got to 100% so haha! :party:

[Tux]

358. Yeah

Controls for the planes were too sensitive. What was with that? I got tired of it and sold it. Wish I kept it now. I miss running down people and leaving tire marks with blood.

[Dr Fate]

81. Hillary is to wishy washy to even MENTION the DSM- but can attack a GAME

This shows you what her priorities are- "safe", BULLSHIT issues.

Bush can lie us into a war and she wont say a WORD- but "OH NO- the video games- we MUSt do somthing!..."

What a joke.

[JanMichael]

83. My brother in law is 32 and w/o a HS Diploma, he's a gamer.

Right on!

[thinkingwoman]

92. Amen nt.

[distantearlywarning]

93. Have any of the "want to label it because of the sex" people

ever PLAYED GTA????

What a sad world we live in when a few hidden sex scenes warrant an NC-17 rating, but not the entire rest of the game, which is devoted to blowing shit up, killing innocent people, dealing drugs, shooting other bad guys, breaking every driving law ever invented, committing robberies, carjacking, harrassing policemen, and did I mention killing innocent people??? As well as about 40 million other potential anti-social acts that I can't even think of right now.

Don't get me wrong - I love GTA. It's one of my favorite games. But for Chrissakes, you can spend the game gunning down little old ladies on the street and stealing their purses for fun. How is that ok for teenagers to do in a game but sex is BAD BAD BAD???

Welcome to fucking Crazy World. Where sadistic violence is perfectly acceptable but God help you if you want a little nooky once in a while.:crazy:

[SaveElmer]

99. It;s not about judging people..it's about information

Apparentoly there is dispute as to where the pornography comes from on this game..

It;s funny how people want to say it's the parents responsibility to regulate what their kids play, but don;t feel that the information they need to make that judgement should be given. If a parent does not object to violence but does to sex, that is their business...it's not up to you to judge that. All we are saying is that there should be full disclosure on the contents...THAT'S IT!!!

[Johonny]

137. Pretty much have to agree

It's kind of funny if parents want accurate information to make better judgements we label them as lazy. What don't they have 40+ hrs free to play all their kids video games? If the government investigates the matter we label them as interfering. Yet on a daily basis you read on this site about the lack of oversite in congress. You'd think people be thrilled this congress took the time to look at something... anything. Hidden features in video games the unlock features not accepted by all parents seems like an issue at least pointing out to the general public. Isn't the government at least suppose to point out to parents that these things exist?

[distantearlywarning]

148. Perhaps I wasn't clear enough.

I think this game should be labeled NC-17. That label is ok with me. And I do think it is irresponsible of the game makers to not tell parents about these hidden scenes.

What I don't get is why the furor about SEX scenes, when GTA is all about violent anti-social acts??? This is the stupid part.

And what it says to me is that we are more worried about sex than robbery, carjacking, blowing up little old ladies, burning shit down, tossing grenades at cop cars, etc.

Why all the fuss now? GTA is a game inappropriate for some teenagers (and probably some adults too), that's for sure. But it was ok prior to the discovery of SEX???

[SaveElmer]

173. That's not our judgement to make...

If a parent thinks sex is worse than violence...that is up to them...it isn;t our place to judge.

We are criticizing people because they are upset about the sex not being disclosed...it's the non-disclosure that is the problem, not the content.

I suspect if the hidden code had been a reenactment of the Berg beheading or some such gruesome content, there would be the same uproar...

People have a right to be informed about what is in the games they are buying...what they do with that information is their business...not ours!

[Carni]

174. Oh come on- they could do a five minute google search on the game

And they would immediately find out that the game is NOT for kids.

The same can be said for music lyrics, movies etc--if you want background it's not that hard to find and takes a minimum of your time.

[SaveElmer]

241. Possibly on the disclosed content....

But hidden content wouldn't be there right away...thousands of copies of this were sold before that came out...

And without a consistent ratings guideline, all you geta are other peoples opinions...

The Christian Coalition review of a game would be far different than what you would find in a cgamer magazine probably. With these types of items, which are nearly impossible to review first hand, a consistent standard needs to be applied to get a good idea.

[Carni]

264. I wasn't talking about sourcing out a review by the CC

I am talking about a brief perusal of bulletin boards where gamers post etc-- I still maintain that in five minutes any parent could get the quick jist that they would probably not want their kid, or teen to play the game (and I would be willing to bet there would even be mention of the secret hooker code)

I am not a gamer and don't hang out with gamers and even I knew the nature of that particular game--people would have to live in a cave with Cheney to not have heard the bitching about the violence and sexual content in that particular game.

[SaveElmer]

276. Not all parents..probably not a majority...have internet access

Or would really know which one of these is reliable. These people all have their own opinion on content. This kind of thing needs a standard.

[TecnoCrat]

313. Retort.

Really, you say that parents need to be informed what's in the game?

Lets see here, on the back, next to the rating, "STRONG SEXUAL SITUATIONS".

Clear enough? Says this on the back of the case itself, along with other descriptors of the violence, profanity, etc, that are on EVERY ESRB RATED GAME.

Any other demands you wish to make that the game industry met several years ago?

[Tux]

366. Deity help us

How about ASK THE FUCKING CLERK?! That wasn't hard.

[Tux]

364. yeah!

Fuck Rovegate, DSM, out of control healthcare, CAFTA, and such. Games make people think.

[Tux]

363. Fixed

It;s funny how people want to say it's the parents responsibility to regulate what their kids play, but don;t feel that the information they need to make that judgement should be given.

read my sig. Two sites that help you find games for Jr. Stay away from M games and everyone is happy. It's called parenting.

[movie_girl99]

96. jesus that was fabulous!!!n/t

[nini]

111. As a programmer/Project Mgr for a game company

It seems to be a joke of some programmers to put easter egg type stuff in games. Sometimes the content is disgusting and unless you know how to access it, the testers and other team members would never know it is in there. What some people's idea of a joke is does not always sit well with the general public.

A game can only be rated on what is seen in normal game play. The ability to access anything beyond the rated material can cause huge legal problems for the company. From the corporate standpoint it cause more hell than you can imagine.

The bottom line from our end is we need to be upfront with the product content and let the buyer decide if it fits their wants etc.

Now, as a parent. I would expect to buy something that falls into a particular rating to actually contain content relative to to the rating. The easter egg/unlocked crap causes problems you don't necessarily foresee happening. Yes, it's the parents job to monitor what a kid plays, but being on top of them all the time isn't a reality when you're working, keeping a house up etc.. We would need to rely on the rating and expect no surprises later on. Personally I knew what my kid was playing but at that time the content wasn't as bad as it is now so I didn't have the added concerns.

It's the unknown surprises that are the problem, not the games themselves. Everyone should be able to buy what they want and know what they're getting - it's as simple as that.

[pointblank]

121. On the matter of kids being influenced by video games and movies..

I tend to subscribe to another of George Carlins rants in that if those media are really to blame on the creation of violent criminals in our society today, where did Hitler, Pol Pot, and any number of violent psychopaths throughout history learn their homicidal/criminal behavior? It certainly wasn' from movies or playing grand theft horse and wagon.

that being said, I don't have kids yet, and probably will reserve that kind of entertainment until they get a bit older, but not because I think it will make them violent criminals, but because it is MY choice to keep their minds innocent until I see fit...NOT when Hilary Clinton sees fit.

[nini]

133. I agree on the parents having control of what to give kids

I'm not for taking away the parent's control at all.

I'm for knowing what you're getting.. that's all.

Also, I agree that a kid isn't going to get corrupted by just a game, or just a TV show or just a movie etc.. and it comes down to letting them be kids as long as they can.

[mzmolly]

124. Exactly right!

:toast:

[nadinbrzezinski]

145. That is why as a game writer I say it is both the company and

the parent's job.

It is the company insofar as easter eggs should be ahem prevented... and the content that is classified as M should be M, not Adult...

It is the parents insofar as I want parents to know what junior is readying and playing... it is part of their job.

In general it takes a village to raise a child

[nini]

152. exactly

From the company standpoint - I sure don't want the company I work for going down because of a lawsuit because some sexually frustrated retard thinks it's funny to put cartoon BJs in an app that is targeted for 6-8 years old.

I say this because this exact thing happened here (which led to my discription of the programmer). We're lucky a 'cool' customer was the one that found it and allowed us to fix it without making a major stink. He of course got a truckload of free stuff from us for his trouble. :D

[nadinbrzezinski]

165. You know we both undesrtand this

now the hard part I cannot get is why perfectly good adults have a problem with carding kids to get their games.... if they are not 17, they should not be able to buy the game (or lets be honest will be much harder)... but this should be done mostly to take teh wind off the sails of many an activist. In the PnP side, adult only material is now sent to stores clearly marked as ADULT ONLY, and sealed... adn responsible stores DO NOT place it within kids reach and DO NOT sell it to anybody under 18... why is this so hard? And trust me, if you have ever seen the book of Vile Content, the 18 and above sticker applies...

[nini]

221. They obviously feel it's a threat to their right to buy what they want

I support their right 100%. But when the material gets too mature for younger kids - some kind of info should be made regarding it to let people know what they're getting.

They can still buy what they want anytime.

NOW if the govt decides to ban this type of entertainment because the right wing fundies decide they don't like it - that's a different story all together. Perhaps people are jumping to that level here.

[nadinbrzezinski]

232. I fear that is waht they are doing

If the fundies could get away with it, how fast do you think oh your local Game Stop and PnP game store woudl be ahem closed and the books burned?

The fundies HATE Dungeons and Dragons for it is real magic and they hate GTA because it involves crime, sex and murder.

I fear that responsibilty by the producers to properly label things, and in selling them carding those who need carding, is being confused with actual removal of the product from the market place by a regulatory agency, preferably headed by Focus on the Family. Heck given what I do, if that nightmare happened, I fear we will share a cell at County Lockdown.

[Tux]

369. Simple

Weak minded parents will buy whatever Jr. pushes at them. You can card them, probe their ass, and all but parents are still the weak link.

Book of Vile Darkness is nothing compared to the Bible or my average Saturday night out.

[nadinbrzezinski]

425. Again as much as the perents have

a place in this, so do Corporations... again it takes a village... i know you hate that but we are all responsible to different degrees

[Tux]

427. Yes

we are all responsible to different degrees
I agree. We are responsible for better environments, better economy, and such but I am NOT responsible for everyone else's kids nor should corporations and governments. Parents banged, had a kid, and now only want the tax reductions but not the responsibility. I'll do my part by not swearing around kids, treat people nicely, etc but I will not stand for America to be turned into a nanny state over idiotic parents who want to avoid responsiblity. It takes parents to raise a child, not a village minus parents.

[nadinbrzezinski]

430. So you have no problem with a corporation lying

fine example you want

it takes a village and when corporate actors misbehave they have to pay, just like when kids misbehave.

[Tux]

437. Idiot

At what time did I say it was fine for a corporation to lie? Disabled code isn't lying. It's not even playable without the mod. Kids misbave due to parenting. If parents are so god damned concerned, don't buy the fucking game. That easy. Read reviews, be a parent, and let the rrest of us enjoy life. Of course, ignoring CAFTA and such is much better since GTA is worse than, say, Bush or Bin Landin, right?

[nadinbrzezinski]

439. Thanks I knew you woudl go this way

now we agree on something here, it is the work of parents to raise kids, but it is also the job of corporations not to lie, even if all they do is produce games.

Now speaking of CAFTA... think of this so called innocent mistake by them, on a Central American Scale... and bin ladin talk about blowback.

Now again you claim this was disabled, sorry it shoudl not have been there, and yes it is possible to clean the code... what is more, why was the code in there to beging with if they wanted an M rating and not an AO rating? Oh something nice to give play testers?

[Tux]

440. Sheesh

Whatever. Assume all you want but you are wrong. The code wasn't begging to be found. Someone found it after looking through the codes and altered some switches. Big fucking deal. Don't like it, too bad.

Rockstar never lied about anything. They never mentioned the code to anyone. It can't be played without the mod. No one lied. Oh well. I prefer to be concerned about real corporate lies but this isn't one of them. If you don't like it, don't buy the game. How hard is that?

As for anything else, you are right. I hate my neighbors. I'm going to start a mini-mall so I can take their home away. I hate their cat too. Corporations need to lie more just like Bush. Hey, let's repeal all laws too. :sarcasm: This is why I am an independant. Liberals complain about appearing to need the government to solve their problems yet they run to the government when a FUCKING GAME has HIDDEN code in it. BIG FUCKING DEAL! If I were you, I'd be more concerned about the lame art on your gaming site. It won't sell like that. By the way, please don't over price things like Wizards. It'll turn people away.

[nadinbrzezinski]

478. Ah nice personal attack

so what if you don't like the art? This is not about my site, but about a corporate lie.

We have shown you repeteaadly where they lied and even how and when they admited it.

Now to pricing structure... tell you the truth, the margin of profit, even for Wizards, ain't that high... electromic gaming is where yuo can get good profit margings, but I am betting, you have no idea how the pricing structure in game materials is set. I will give you a free clue. DnD 3.0 First print run, theh barely broke even (due to the size of the print run)... but they tehmselves seaid affer that ran out they would have to raise the price to sustainable levels. It was something they could afford to do due to the size of the company, but not something most companies can do. I just love it when kids like you pound on WoTC for their prices... ok, you don't like it you don't have to buy it either, stop complaining and stop buying D20, fair enough?

[mzmolly]

203. Agree again.

I'm out gang.

:hi:

[Tux]

368. Game company?

You should know that an Easter egg doesn't require a mod file to activate.

[nadinbrzezinski]

431. Again was this in the distribution disk

and again read their own bloody statement and TRY to comprehend it



http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/latimests/hidd ...

As late as last week, Take-Two had insisted that the sex scenes were "the work of a determined group of hackers who have gone to significant trouble to alter scenes in the official version of the game." Hackers, the company said, created the scenes by "disassembling and then combining, recompiling and altering the game's code."

The scenes prompted an outcry from game critics, including Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton (D-N.Y.), who last week called for a federal investigation into "Hot Coffee."

The Entertainment Software Ratings Board began a review to determine whether the scenes were part of the game's original code and warranted a re-rating of "San Andreas," versions of which play on Sony Corp (NYSE:SNE - news).'s PlayStation 2, Microsoft Corp.'s Xbox and personal computers.

"After a thorough investigation, we have concluded that sexually explicit material exists in a fully rendered, unmodified form on the final discs of all three platform versions of the game," said Patricia Vance, president of the ratings board. "Clearly the rating was incorrect, and it needed to be corrected."

[Tux]

433. I read it

But "disassembling and then combining, recompiling and altering the game's code" isn't finding an Easter egg. It's changing the code to enable a disabled set of code. Here is what that part meant: the hackers took apart the code, merged it, reassembled it, which altered the code to enable disabled code. Big deal. Easter eggs are found playing the game, not recompiling it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

500. my, not even their admision is enogh

I guess the corporation can do no wrong, welcome to bush's America... Mission Accomplished

[Ron Mexico]

114. As a young pup of 28 with such minimal education, you clearly need

government to take care of you. Trust Big Brother, kid. If you can't trust an administration that's doing its best to keep evil naked statues out of government buildings, you can't trust anyone. ;)

[DS1]

128. Heh, I was thinking about buying it today

:D

[bigtree]

129. the virtual violence is sickening

but it's your life.

I don't mind rallying and railing against these 'games' that simulate violence. I welcome any and all condemnation of these games that simulate violence. I'm mindful that I have no right to tell you what to do in this regard. But I have a perfect right to tell my concerns to the wind, and anyone else who will listen.

[stanwyck]

135. OK. Fine. just answer this

why did Rockstar hide explicitly sexual images within the game? Why not just be honest. They wanted the shock value of the sex in order to hype their game. They knew kids would be playing the games. Don't think they don't know who's playing these games.
This, "gee, whiz" attitude of the company is insulting.
You're ignoring what the company did. They're making a game...but they're playing one, too.

[SaveElmer]

146. Well said...

The company could have saved themselves an awful lot of grief by either disclosing the content or simply removing the code...

[YOY]

155. There is no "Gee Whiz" Attitude

They are unappologetic and frankly should be.

And if it were just for "Shock Value" why did this pile of crap sell so poorly:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMX_XXX

[Kraklen]

175. The people playing this game are overwhelmingly...

in their late twenties. That's who they've made the game for, that's who they're targetting with advertising.

[stanwyck]

248. Agreed. but why the

"hidden" images? Why not be honest about what is included? Doesn't this seem deceptive? I don't agree that kids should be playing these games.. (although we know they do -- but that's a parental concern). It's the outright dishonesty of the company. If you make porn, just make porn. Don't tell us it's a love story.
Or are they ashamed of their own actions?
Maybe a little.
But they know it helps sell their game.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

234. It's rated M...and I think it does list "mature sexual content"

If you are letting kids play M rated material...why are you complaining when it contains the things it says it contains in it?

My husband loves the game. Not my cup of tea, but I do get annoyed with people acting like it was stocked on childrens' shelves.

[stanwyck]

239. I'm referring to the "hidden"

sexually explicit images the company claims they didn't know had been embedded.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

240. So "mature sexual content" is OK for kids even if it's rated M...

but the hidden stuff isn't? If you are letting your kids play the game and experience the stuff that is advertised, you really don't have any room to complain about the "hidden" stuff.

[stanwyck]

246. well, in my case

my kids are 21 yrs. old (twins) and they aren't into video games. So, I'm not "letting" my kids do anything at this point. The crux of this argument is the company claiming to be "shocked"..."shocked" that "someone" put hidden messages in their games -- not advertised - but there. It's a "wink wink" OMG how did "that" get in there. Right. Face it. Those "hidden" explicit (and unadvertised...except for those "in the know") are there to hype the game. The word gets out fast and they know it. It's marketing.
To act otherwise is being very ingenuous.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

259. I buy that...

But it still doesn't explain why parents of children are getting upset and the politicians who are cashing in on the issue.

[Hippo_Tron]

411. If they were creating the content anticipating that kids would be playing

There would be no cop killing, drug dealing, and car jacking either. This game was made for adults. Sure they know that kids will be playing, but that's not their fault, they have already submitted to a rating system and the rating system rated it MATURE as in NOT FOR KIDS in the first place.

If there was sex hidden in Super Mario Brothers, that might actually be something worth bitching about (although frankly I can think of much better things to bitch about).

[Jo March]

136. I hate those games SO I DON'T BUY THEM

They are not allowed in our house and our kids are not allowed to play them.

I would never tell someone else, however, that they couldn't buy them or play them.

I police my own house. I can do a pretty darn good job at keeping my kids safe without the government censoring anything!

Dang it!!

Great post.

[redqueen]

143. THANK YOU!

:applause:

[AuntiBush]

149. Can Your PhD & Masters Help Us the Hell Out of total FASCISM?

'Cause I no longer recognize my country any longer!?! I'm serious. Those of us seeking higher-education, and those that already have their much-earned degrees need to create our own think-tanks here.

As this is a total disgrace. I can't even bring myself to hang the flag out anymore. It's like I'm demeaning it's definition.

[nadinbrzezinski]

151. That is a nice rant

so since hyou have the PhD and the Masters do tell me.. you have heard of recent research in behavioral science and child development, haven't you? You have also read these studies adn realize that they have not been replicated, but if they are... they do have consequences that are troubling

You also realize that it is your right to spend your money any way you want, but it is also the obligation of the company NOT to insert funny jokes (easter eaggs) that can get them into lots of hot water, see this company. Even if this required an externaml mod, this still was an ester egg, regardless of what they said, as the program had the content in there.

You also realize that if those studies I have made a reference to are confirmed it will lead to very interesting conclusions

Oh and by the way, good luck when you go looking for a job these days the PhD doen't impress anybody... for the record I RUN a game company (I ecourage paretnts to reaad the material and make sure it is age apropriate) and I do have a masters degree... so your PhD does not impress me that much.

Oh and you have a problem with the very simple solution of carding kids to make sure they are 17 when they buy M rated games?

We do card them for alcohol and cigs by the way

[pointblank]

159. Ummm the last time I checked..

A PHD was a hell of lot harder to get than a masters....but what do I know, I only have an associates and a bachelors. From the way you talk, I should be happy if I can get a job as a fry cook at burger barn.

[nadinbrzezinski]

162. The way the economy works right now

having a PhD does not a job guarantee, hell I decided against proceeding for a PhD when I realized getting a job in academia was next to impossible.

As to how hard, depends on your program in many ways... and beleive it, how hard it is, depends on your thesis committee... and how mistreated they were.

[mzmolly]

164. Excellent points.

Apparently some are not familiar with the data you note, or are not concerned about the impact upon our society as a whole?

Every child involed in school shootings to my knowledge was a fan of these games. Imagine the potential impact of adding sexual content to the bloody murderous rampages portrayed in these games?

[nadinbrzezinski]

176. I fear thatt data will not be able to be replicated

I will describe to you any of these kdis, who are very much a huge minority.... so small these sudies, if they are honest, will have a problem tying to computer games, for multiple reasons.

They tend to be loners (And trust me the research has not been able to prove becuase of the games, they have been loners since people remember, inclding Kindergarden)

They tend to be mal adjusted, Some say it is becuase of the games, but once you raise the hood, what came first?

Family life is not the best... again chicken or egg problem

At most, as it stands right now, these games have just added to the problems with these kids in small ways.

Some of these kids also have problems distinguishing between reality and fantasy... heck I met one at a gaming convetion years back and I got the parents involved. He was fifteen and trust me he had a problem distinghishing that thing called reality...

I am willing to wait for the studies to come out... and to be REPLICATED... a couple times over.

For the record, with what I know of child development, when I do run demos of my game, a paper and pencil Role Playing Game, I do not let anybody under eleven seat at my table. If I only have adults, we go the full monty with the political story... if we have kids we modify the content... but sadly not all Game masters do this... or undersand why you do it.

What Paper and Pencil do provide is a distraction, and with very young kids gun fights are replaced wtih food fights... but kids under 11 I try not to show the games to... it is around that time that play pretend, what an RPG is, can be disginguished from reality.

[Kraklen]

172. Since I'm old enough to know bullshit when I smell it...

I can repeat that the weight of scientific evidence shows there are none of these horrible consequences of children playing violent video games.

It's like James Dobson claiming that Harry Potter leads kids to witchcraft. It's nonsense.

[nadinbrzezinski]

182. Kraken read the post above

and yuo will see that RESPONSIBLE peoople IN THE INDUSTRY are now waiting for these studies to be replicated... though we expect the effect of gaming to be minimal on a very small miniority of kids...if at all, but we want to see these studies to be replicated...

We have been fighting this gaming is evil and it leads to violence since 1975... two psycologists claim they have the goods... we have gone, sure show us and have soembody else replicate it.

Yuo realize how long we will probably have to wait?

The tie to gaming is that kids such as the two at Columbine played Doom on their comptuers (and Battletech) in paper and pencil mode. The other tie is that one kid commited a series of murders in Florida after playing Vampire the Masquerade. Then we have the two kids in upper state Washington, in the 1980s that killed someobdy else after going into the sewer, they played DnD... I am sure I am missing the other case or two where gaming was involved. If gaming adds in any way, shape or form to tehir problems, it was mimimal... but we are all going sure you have the evidence, REPLICATE IT.

We want to see it, we truly do.

[Kraklen]

189. There was a kid that shot up his school in Arkansas.

He claimed God told him to do it.

I don't think there's anybody contemplating closing churches because of that, and I sure hope their aren't any serious video game producers falling for the same bullshit.

[nadinbrzezinski]

193. No there are serious prodicuers falling for the child development

bullshit so they can produce more age apropriate and properly labelled games...

This is not censrorship, but I fear you are the kind of person that has no problem with chicks in chain mail bikinis, gratoitious violence and sex and anything like taht

We as a society have for years kept our kids away from lots of violence until they are ready... for instance All's Quiet on the Western Front is not a book for first graders... nor the movie is apropriate for first graders. GTA is not apropriate for teens...

nobody is asking for censorship, but there are things that teens should not be able to see, ranging from Playboy to GTA, to certin movies.... all in due time

[Kraklen]

198. That's a shame.

But it is censorship.

Labelling games properly isn't that hard.

I'm not particularly fond of "chicks in chain mail bikinis, gratoitious (sic) violence and sex and anything like (that)." But I have no problem with it. At the risk of repeating myself, I do have a problem with censorship.

[nadinbrzezinski]

200. GTA had an Easter Egg that required a mod to

unlock it, whether it was there on purpose, left for fun, and the players found it... the game was NOT PROPERLY LABELED... end of discusion.

What they SHOULD HAVE DONE is remove the Easter Egg. They would not be in hot water if they had done such.

And yes you do have a problem with child development apaprently. So go ahead, I will give yuo an even more violent moive\book to share with first graders... "Johnny got his Gun." If you think All Quite is age apropriate and should be in teh first year curruiculum and that GTA shoudl be availalbe to teens in the name of freedom... because we should not censor or age aproprate label, we are functioning in two different realities. I take it you have never raised or help raise a kid.

[Kraklen]

202. Sure it was.

In order to unlock the mod, one needs to download it off the internet.

That's like saying Crayola Crayons aren't suitable for children because kids can use them to draw boobs.

What they should have done is nothing different.

What Clinton and the censors SHOULD HAVE DONE is focus on something a little less fascist.

[nadinbrzezinski]

206. It was in the distribution disk correct?

It was LEFT in the distribution disk and it should have been removed from the distribution disk. If it was removed, we would not be having this discusion.... now would we?

[Kraklen]

211. It's moot.

Players couldn't do use it as is.

If the content was removed, which is apparently what you'd like, it'd be censorship.

Illustrating my point perfectly.

[nadinbrzezinski]

216. No it is called responsibly

they went around the MSRB ratings, that mod pushed it into the adults only... that IS the point.

They LIED To the MSRB since they wanted to be sold at Wally Mart and Game Stop that would NOT carry the game if it was designated as ADULT ONLY... they needed an M rating... so they LIED.

Why is it that what you call censorship sounds more like RESPONSIBILITY?


By the way NOBODY is telling you NOT to play GTA, but parents, my mom included, NEED to trust the ratings, and this will only shake their confidence. So how many E games are truly T, games due to Easter Eggs, how many T games are truly M and how many M are truly Adult Only?

[nini]

231. I wonder how many people do not realize a company has to submit..

a video of the app for review to get the assigned rating. To have hidden content that affects the determination of the rating is not legal.

This is the issue.. not that content some don't approve of is for sale, but that content NOT approved was on an application that doesn't warrant the rating.

[nadinbrzezinski]

235. Not many, including our thread starter

I know that, and I know the industry set that board in particular to avoid the problems that this could unleash... like actual federal enforcement... this is the consequence, worst case scenrio, of this Easter Egg...

[SaveElmer]

217. Only if they wanted to maintain the M rating...

If they wished to move it to an Adults Only rating, which would be appropriate based on that content, it could be left in.

[Tux]

375. Why not

Have parents stop being zombies and actually, Deity forbid, raise their kids for once?

[nadinbrzezinski]

381. Why not hold companies responsible when they mess up

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/latimests/hidd...

As late as last week, Take-Two had insisted that the sex scenes were "the work of a determined group of hackers who have gone to significant trouble to alter scenes in the official version of the game." Hackers, the company said, created the scenes by "disassembling and then combining, recompiling and altering the game's code."

The scenes prompted an outcry from game critics, including Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton (D-N.Y.), who last week called for a federal investigation into "Hot Coffee."

The Entertainment Software Ratings Board began a review to determine whether the scenes were part of the game's original code and warranted a re-rating of "San Andreas," versions of which play on Sony Corp (NYSE:SNE - news).'s PlayStation 2, Microsoft Corp.'s Xbox and personal computers.

"After a thorough investigation, we have concluded that sexually explicit material exists in a fully rendered, unmodified form on the final discs of all three platform versions of the game," said Patricia Vance, president of the ratings board. "Clearly the rating was incorrect, and it needed to be corrected."

[thinkingwoman]

227. replication is only the first step

toward proving anything.

More important than replication is the actual methodology of any study.

Even replicated studies with sound methodology can fall by the wayside a few years later because some variable that was ignored turns out to be relevant.

Coffee is bad for you. Good for you. Bad for you.

Alcohol is bad. Good. Bad. Good.

No fat. Some fat. No need to curb fat.

And that's just in the food industry, where science can actually be accurately done.

In the psychology and sociology realms, things are a LOT murkier. Frankly, we're in the infancy in those sciences (and some still wouldn't call them that). There are far, far too many unknowns and there is a real and significant problem with the suggestivity of test subjects.

There's nothing wrong with keeping an eye on research in this area. But the reality is that violence, anti-social behavior, and any other deviance of the day have existed long, long before technology brought us electronic candy.

That being said, I return to my regular mantra--Parents should parent their children.

Edited to remove idiot typo. sigh.

[nadinbrzezinski]

230. And responsible manufacturefrs

should nto try to get cute and get around rating systems...

;-)

Trust me I undestand, but so far we have not even been able to see replication on any of these studies.

[thinkingwoman]

236. I was having an argument

offline with somebody who was trying to convince me that the coding in the new GTA that is unlocked by the mod was "accidentally" left in there.

I don't know if I won the argument because my laughter ended the discussion. sigh. :shrug:

I'm with you on responsible game manufacturing and retailing. Believe me. I just wanted to add in the extra caution for other posters about putting too much faith in "studies" even if they are ever replicated, which I doubt.

The state of scientific research in the last 30 years horrifies me almost as much as the rise of the radical right. Almost.

[nadinbrzezinski]

238. Easter Eggs are NEVER left in there

accidentally... they can be loads of fun to find.. heck there are even some in Excell (If I coudl remember to get to it)... but they are never left in there accidentally...

If this was an accident, they would have fired the team responsible by now

[thinkingwoman]

244. Thank you!

I mentioned easter eggs between fits of laughter but...well, I'm sure you can imagine.

[Tux]

374. Do you

Understand that APA wants video games and dice based RPGs banned? Many studies by psychs are now loaded with politics. It's nothing more than controling the population. One goal of psych is control over behavior. I have a psych degree so I must not know that.

[nadinbrzezinski]

412. Yes we have been fightuin this since oh 1975

by the way, that is why every time they present the studies we all go, show us the goods of shut up... yuou have no idea how many of these have been shut down already

And it is NOT all of the American Psychological Association by the way, but check, like everthing else, who funds teh studies.

[SaveElmer]

196. I think its nonsense too...but

It should be up to the parent to make that decision, and the parent has the right to know what they are buying.

If a person thinks that Harry Potter is harming their kids, they have a perfect right to act on that. And a book, unlike a video game or even an album, is easy to research ahead of time. Simply open the book and read it. With video games, there is no easy way to get this information without buying and playing the game first, or talking to someone who has. We have to rely on these ratings systems to at least give us guidance. In order for that system to work, manufacturers have to be up front about what they are providing

I am seeing from a number in this thread who work in this industry, that the easter egg built in to the game was inappropriate and should have been removed or disclosed. I will defer to their judgement

[Carni]

188. This is an old argument

I was around in the 70's when the three stooges were deemed to be "too violent"by some of the mental health types.

You know it's funny everyone I knew growing up (myself included)watched hundreds of hours of the 3 stooges belting each other in the head and poking each other in the eyes--hitting people with shovels, hammers, saws, shooting each other etc and to my knowledge none of them went on to become serial murderers, or cop killers.

I think most people over the age of 17 have enough sense to distinguish fantasy from reality and if they don't then they have larger problems than cartoon sex and violence in some video game.

[nadinbrzezinski]

195. Yuo used the magic word

17 is the M rating, why are people having a problem with ensuring that GTA does not go to the hands of those UNDER 17?

Amd I know it is an old argument, why do you think we are all going show us the goods? DnD since it came out in 1975 it has been used as a foil

[Carni]

223. Now I am confused

It's rated "M" right? (not for those under 17 the way I understood it)

I guess what I am saying is that I don't think Rockstar is responsible for the sale of the game to kids UNDER 17.

I would think the store is responsible for the sale, right?

I have no problem with a rating system.

I misunderstood your initial post I guess, because what I am seeing you say here is that you want to see PROOF that violent video games cause murderous behavior and I agree with that.

I have no idea what DnD is?

[nadinbrzezinski]

229. You did

and DnD is Dungeons and Dragons... trust me we have been fighitng this for years (1975) and as always, if they find the actual evidence, we want to see it, and we want to see it REPLICATED

As to the stores... personally they should be liable to the same penanlties that oh... the local liquor store is bound to if it sells alchohol to minors, as well as the local retailer selling cigs. Granted the vice squad has far better things to do, but if the industry in general did this.... how fast do you think the wind would come off them sails

[Tux]

377. Duh

Dice based games and video games are two different things. I play both. One is more imagination oriented and the other is more media oriented.

[nadinbrzezinski]

413. Yes and your point here is?

this fight with those who want them banned does not a distinction make... trust me for them fundies the magic in DnD and the magic in Harry Potter and the Magic in Harry Ptter the Computer Game are the same.

[Tux]

419. SO?

Censorship is the solution? Why not just anything that might cause thought?

[nadinbrzezinski]

428. Nobody is advocating censorship

but having things clearly labeled is not censorship, now if any of us were saying take the game out of circulation, THAT is censorship

What we are advocating is, companies are also responsible for what they produce and have a SOCIAL RESPONSIBILITY to be open about their content and honest....

I will take your logic to the logical end... parents are responsible for all that happens to their kids, no societal responsibility. So parents have to decide all the kids get, including games, food, water and medicines. Lets assume for a second that Suzie gets cancer, and this comes from the pollutants in the water that were never disclosed by the company... by your logic, the company is not liable since it was the parents fault for not giving suzie clean water, never mind they thought they were.

So would you hold that company accountable? Not by your logic you would not, since it is the parents responsibility

The rating system, with all its imperfections, is the content of that water bottle that allows the parents to choose wisely. Now some parents will just pick up any old bottle while others will micromanage what they kid takes, but it is the same. Companies are responsible for what they put out. Rockstar put a product out with something in the distribution disk it should NOT have been there, given their rating, and don't give me the BS about technology or not understanding. I know how this works and by their own admission they left it there... so, now they are being held responsive. Nobody is telling them you cannot produce this... hell no, nobody (short of the usual RW nut jobs) wants that. What we want is honesty. Why are you as a gamer having a serious problem using those deductive skills you should have gotten gaming, solving this puzzle?

[Tux]

435. Sheesh, freepers

What I said was that parents should monitor their kids, not allow them to play mature games, and read the fucking labels. I want clean air and all but this is completely different. What we are talking about is fascism so parents can hang out at bars and everyone babysits the kids.

By your logic, parents shouldn't raise kids. It takes a village afterall. Parents should dump their kids onto someone else and that person be responsible for the child. If the child reads Playboy, sue the babysitter. All so parents can be selfish to the core.

Corrupt corporations is one thing but a company that left disabled code in a game is another.

[nadinbrzezinski]

479. We went thuogh this last night but I see it has not sunk in yet

this is not about parents raising their kids, two separate items, this is about a company lying.

Their innocent lie, and leaving the code in production disks, will do exactly what the freepers want, see they cannot regulate themselves, maybe we should ban gamse.

This company just provided hurricane sized winds to them sails... but keep defending them, never mind they themselves admited it.

[flvegan]

163. Well said.

I haven't gotten GTA: SA, and I don't know if I will. Maybe parents should be demanding that Net Nanny and the other net watchdog programs learn to block the ability to download specific hacks.

Personally, I suck at heavy plot games. I'll take Far Cry or The Punisher, or hell, even Postal 2 anyday. I like to blow virtual shit up.

[Taverner]

166. I'm, 35, I have two masters degrees. I am also a parent

And I play Grand Theft Auto. It's a great fucking game.

In Short, it's the parents job to keep this out of the hands of kids, not Rockstar's.

And you're right - this is censorship, plain and simple.

[xmas74]

179. I am a parent.

I don't believe in censorship. I do believe in full disclosure about what I might be subjecting my child to. You are an adult and you have every right to play whatever game you want. I have no plans to stop you from whatever gives you pleasure(as long as it doesn't hurt others).
In my house, we don't play video games of any sort. Not even the all ages games. There is a good reason for it (and it has nothing to do w/ content). I've watched too many kids sit all day long and do nothing but play video games. They don't go outside to play, they don't read, they don't put their imaginations to work. I don't want my child to be like one of those kids. I want her to learn about the joy of nature. I want her to have a love of reading. I just want her to do more.
If my child asked for this game I would tell her no. When she is an adult she can play all she wants but until then I make the decisions. Maybe some of the other parents out there need to do the same.

[hunter]

190. So Kraklen, how's that PhD and two Masters cooking?

Ever stolen a car or fucked a 'ho?

You know, there's a bright beautiful world out there. All you have to do is step outside.

[Kraklen]

191. I've fucked a 'ho.

We both enjoyed it.

You're illustrating an old tired false dichotomy: video game players don't enjoy life.

That's as tired as anything else I pointed out in my O.P.

[hunter]

208. Heh. Tell me about it.

I woke up this morning as the dark hunter. My DU mailbox is always open.

[fhqwhgads]

209. i've never done either...

...please don't take my gta away, it's all i've got!

(kidding. a little bit.)

[sendero]

197. With 3 teenaged sons..

... you can bet their mother and I have spent some time on this issue.

I still won't let them play GTA, but they all play a lot of violent games like Call of Duty and Halo.

At first, I was really conflicted at this. But at this point, in my small anecdotal case, I'm no longer worried about these games affecting my kids because they are the same good kids who know right from wrong and reality from play that they were before.

[CrazyForKucinich]

285. So if they know right from wrong...

and reality from play...why won't you let them play GTA?

Looking from the outside, it seems you have a false sense of trust in your kids, no? I've played Halo 2...great game(means you have an X-Box too...bet you didn't know Halo was only for X-Box...just filling you in). In that game you work as a team(like Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris) to kill the other guys. You can pick up a wide array of real life weapons...like the Sniper Rifle that can shoot a hole in your opponents head from half-way across the battle field.

Call of Duty is more teamplay(online at least) where players are to reenact the battles of WWII if I'm not mistaken. Where the US, Russians and Brits you get to play as, get to kill all the Germans...German accents and all. So here you got 2 games where you kill people for the hell of it...one with a cause...because we gotta kill all those Nazis!!!

Yet you won't let your kids play GTA? To me it makes no sense. You didn't explain why you won't let your kids play GTA whatsoever...seems the media or some other factors close to home have the real control over your decisions but then that's just my opinion.

Let me leave you with this. I'm sure one of your 3 teenage sons has a friend who has the game and I'm sure they play it somewhere else. In the end your decision is overrided. By signalling out GTA...to me all it seems you're doing is making yourself the enemy, dumbing down your stance on videogames(as you let them play the other seriously violent videogames) and thus losing their respect and being seen as making no sense on the issue at hand(as I believe).

Once again, I would love to hear how you can justify Halo and Call of Duty in the sense that they know fiction from reality and then deny GTA because for whatever reason(you didn't give one). I'd really love to hear the reason though...especially after you said your kids are so smart.

[Name removed]

305. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TroubleMan]

339. Actually they have Halo for the PC, too

I have it on my comp.

I don't disagree with your point. I just was pointing out minutia.

[slutticus]

210. Sing it Brother!

:D

[JNelson6563]

224. Yeah, killin' "ho's" and stuff is great fun!

Surely woulda been my guess as an entertainment choice for a PhD.

Whatever.

I don't care what they put in games but hey, trash is trash and let us not pretend it's anything else.

Julie

[Kraklen]

243. Obviously you've never played the game.

Within the plot of the game there's not one woman who's the target of violence.

I'd hope it wouldn't take a PhD to learn that you shouldn't criticize something that you've never played, read, or seen.

[mzmolly]

266. Wrong! Unless you consider beating a prostitute to death non-violent?

Take-Two is no stranger to controversy. Previous installments of "Grand Theft Auto" have been adored by hard-core gamers but excoriated by parent groups and lawmakers for their depictions of violence and sex.

In one, players could have sex with a prostitute and then beat her to death and take back their money. That game was rated "Mature" because players did not see the sex. Instead, they saw a parked car rock back and forth.

Some lawmakers criticized the ratings board for failing to detect the sex scenes in its initial evaluation of "San Andreas" last year. Although the system is voluntary, most game publishers seek a rating from the organization, which evaluated more than 1,000 titles last year.

"It should not have taken this long," said Rep. Joe Baca (news, bio, voting record) (D-Rialto). "This is evidence that the voluntary ratings system does not work."

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/latimests/hiddensexscenessparkfurorovervideogame


"Not one women who's the target of violence?!"

[Kraklen]

273. Beating a prostitute isn't part of the game.

If the player wants, he or she can spend time beating prostitutes to death.

But it's not a part of the plot of the game.

You can fly a plane into a skyscraper if you want to as well, that's also not part of the game.

So I say again, you're both making it quite clear that you've never played the game before.

[mzmolly]

280. OMG. If you can beat a prostitute to death while playing GTA ...

IT'S "PART OF THE GAME."

[Kraklen]

290. No, it's not.

Just like Holden Caulfield doesn't beat a prostitute to death in Catcher in the Rye.

Now, if the reader wants to imagine that Holden Caulfield beat the prostitute to death, or even draw illustrations, that's their own choice. But it's not a part of the story.

[mzmolly]

294. Unbelievable.

:hi:

[Kraklen]

297. I know.

I still can't believe people are still bringing up that old saw about beating prostitutes.

[mzmolly]

300. "Bringing" prostitutes? No, it's BEATING THEM TO DEATH, that I personally

object to.

Now, what exactly is your issue with GTA having an ADULT rating?

[Kraklen]

307. Beating, excuse me.

The rating is M for mature. Adults Only is a different rating.

I'm fine with the rating that it has.

The problem I have is with people burning books. But I explained that in my OP.

[OrlandoGator]

316. A little clarification is needed here.

What makes GTA so unique is that it provides you with a living, breathing city in which the player can literally do whatever they want. If they want to get in a police car and fight crime all day, they can. If they want to get into a fire truck and put out fires, they can. If they want to get into a cab and drive fares around, they can.

There are no objectives in the game that require "beating a ho to death" in order to advance. It is the player's prerogative whether they do that...just as it is their prerogative to do anything else.

As someone mentioned, you can also fly large commercial jets into buildings. That does not mean this is a 9/11 simulator.

As for "Hot Coffee," I hope people understand that the fundamental code of the software must be altered by the end user in order to access it. Somewhere in the production process, it was decided that the minigame was too much, so the parts of the code that allow you to access it were removed. Someone went and reverse-engineered the product in such a way that content that was never intended to be released was out in the open.

Here's an analogy: A few years back, the source code for one of the Windows operating systems was released illegally. In the non-functional comments of the code (which the end user never sees), there was profanity and even some racy jokes. But Microsoft was never punished because the public was never supposed to see it.

[mzmolly]

329. Your clarification does not change the fact that you CAN beat a woman to

death in this game and that option was designed by the manufacturer - as was the "code" to enable that option.

Can you prey on small children in this "big city" as well? And, if so, would you feel differently about the game?

Sorry, your clarification changes nothing in my opinion.

The MFGR also claimed that hackers were responsible for "hot coffee" and an investigation showed that was not the case and the option is available in all the game formats.

This company has a history of sleaze, and I hope they pay a hefty price.

[OrlandoGator]

443. So your personal interpretation of "sleaze" should be the standard?

I like the game. Millions of other adults like the game, too. There's no mystery whatsoever that the game is filled with crime, drugs, sex and violence. Nobody has ever tried to present Grand Theft Auto as "family-friendly."

Why should Take Two/Rockstar have to "pay a hefty price"? Anyone who purchases this game for a child is a bad parent and they are the ones solely responsible for whatever results from it.

[mzmolly]

469. Yes, I think it's sleaze. However, the standard at issue here is not mine

Technically, this game should have had an adult rating, but the company found an under handed way to avoid that.

You all bitch about how parents should check the ratings, but fail to realize that checking the rating was a moot point in this case.

I think the good news in all of this is parental awareness where it did not exist before, would you agree?

[nadinbrzezinski]

480. Hey I work in the industry and when my mom

asks for help in choosing a game for my niece, she is 12, E and T games for her... yuo think I trust the rating system myself?

[mzmolly]

482. LOL.

I dunno, thankfully my six year old is pretty safe playing "Kidpix" ;)

[Tux]

379. I prefer

The rednecks. Nice targets that shoot back. Killing whores gets old but rednecks never do. Old people make a nice splat when hit with a bat.

[Solon]

398. Drug dealers are best in my opinion...

you get a gun plus about 2 grand in cash, and easy to spot too.

[mzmolly]

472. "Killing whores gets old..."

I'll let that sick assed comment speak for itself.

[JNelson6563]

289. I've seen it played

and it was very violent. Urban violence. Yeah, fight for your right for this shit. Party on.

And any moron could see what the game's about after watching it played for a few minutes. Hell, even a PhD could see it I'd bet.

Julie

[Kraklen]

292. What the game's about?

The game's about a young street thug who rises from a life of street crime to become the head of a vast criminal organization.

Not unlike the films Scarface or The Godfather. In fact, those movies were primary sources for much of the material in the games.

Hell, anybody who's played it could see that.

[JNelson6563]

301. And your point?

From nobody thug status to important thug status. Yep, sounds like what I saw and like the perfect kind of shit America can't get enough of. Like "reality" TV and other fine culture we've contributed to the world.

Of course, I will admit such horror is timeless and has been bestseller material for millenia. Ever catch the Old Testament? Genocide 101.


Enjoy your game. I think it's crap but couldn't care less if folks buy it and play it. Just don't try to disguise it as anything other than what it is. Some indulge base instincts more than others. Better through games than real life I guess.

Julie

[slutticus]

512. You don't kill hos...you protect them.

Get a clue

[hfojvt]

233. Forrest Gump has spoken!

A little strident though. Written in haste and anger?

"find one day that you're (sic) kid has been running over cops instead of counting ...
First, you've raised you (sic) kid to be a sneaky lying bastard, I didn't do that...
other parents how to raise their kid (sic?). "Oh, I here (sic) that Johnny Smith's parents let him play that Grand Auto game, they must be horrible parents." You know what? I don't go around telling people how to raise their kids. God knows I could. I could say, "can you believe their (sic) raising their little Suzy in a home where censorship and ignorance is considered morally acceptable,..."

It kinda jumps at me when a PhD is making those kind of mistakes, but I think I hear rhetorical shotguns being loaded.

Do we not live in a society where kids throw cement blocks off of over-passes for fun? PhD or not, I have more respect for people who play chess, backgammon, and spider solitaire on their computer than I do for players of GTA and the like. PhDs are not immune from addictions or bad habits or the siren call of violent video games. Many PhDs smoke cigarettes or are alcoholics, but that does not make it healthy or morally sound.

[Kraklen]

247. Well, if you want to take that approach...

Overpass isn't hyphenated, and the plural of abbreviations with uppercase and lowercase letters is with an apostrophe "s."

If you'd wish to actually debate issues I've raised, I'll be willing to drop the grammar and the hypocrasy.

[Swamp Rat]

277. HAHAHA!!! ..."hypocrasy"

:rofl:

[Kraklen]

296. Well, if you want to play that game as well...

"Hissss" is spelled with four "s"'s.

:P

[Swamp Rat]

306. Nope

I want to play Asteroids!

[Hippo_Tron]

397. Why is it morally wrong to smoke cigarettes and drink alcohol?

If my morality says that it's okay to do those things, then what is the problem. Someobdy else's morality says it is wrong, good for them, they can not smoke and drink and they can teach their children to do the same.

And yes it is not healthy to do smoke or drink in excess, but again, who am I to tell another person, other than my children, that they shouldn't do these things because they will live longer. Maybe they don't want to live longer. Maybe they would rather enjoy the years that they have smoking and drinking, again who am I to tell somebody else that their behavior is immoral, just because my morals say that it is.

[Robbie Michaels]

249. Awesome Rant!

I couldn't agree with you more. If the box says "M" or "NC-17", then it's not for kids. If kids are playing the game, then don't go after the manufacturer. Go after whoever let them play it, or whoever sold it to them.

[genieroze]

251. I play GTA too. What bothers me about this is, did they make a big

stink about the other GTA games when there were white characters? Did the other games have main minority characters? I only played VC and SA so I don't know about the others. I play these games, my kids play sports games. (my youngest is 17 anyway) My husband was teasing me and asked how I like "Hot Coffee". I downloaded the mod but I need to restart the game to use it and I don't want to do that. He was really ripping on Hellory for this one. People dying in Iraq, jobs leaving the country, and this nut is worried about a freaking video game? I'm sorry but the worse game I ever played is Postal 2 and that's banned in many countries. (That game is hot as hell and funny as heck)

[Kraklen]

257. No, it's a race issue.

It's the same as Janet Jackson's breast.

[CrazyForKucinich]

288. haha Hellory

Your husband has a good sense of humor. :)

[Sam_Lowry]

252. Amazing, ain't it....

Buckets O blood are fine and dandy, but one breast (GASP!) and the world is coming to an end....I love our sense of morals in this country :eyes:

A question for you Kraklen: If you are so opposed to any censorship, is there anything you would by law make unavailable? What criteria would you use to make this choice? I ask this both for materials for children and adults.

I'll try to give you the perspective from the other side: In many families out there, both parents have to work just to make ends meet, and thus have less time to spend with/raise the kids. So other influences (media, school, etc.) have a greater influence than they used to, when one parent could stay home. These parents feel helpless to balance the barrage of examples their kids are exposed to elsewhere with their own parenting. School, media, and peers get more time than they do. So the question is: If "society" makes it necessary for two parents to work 3 or 4 jobs just to provide a place to stay and food to eat, vaccinations, clothes, etc., does not society have an obligation to assist and guide the raising of these children?

I tend toward your point of view, but I cannot simply negate the arguments I hear against it.

As for me, the graphic blood and gore or hot sex are not at all needed, if the game is fun to play (anyone who uses the "blinded and surrounded by a freezing sphere and a wraith" dialogue from Nethack as their sigline should understand that hehe) I'm still playing Captive on my Atari ST emulator, and having a ball :-)

[Tux]

386. Damn

does not society have an obligation to assist and guide the raising of these children?

No, not my kid. Not my responsibility nor will I allow some fascists remove any freedom of speech so others can raise their kids so they can stop parenting.

[nashville_brook]

256. lets just say what it is: a TIRED way the DLC thinks they can "take values

off the table."

note to DLC -- try doing something that will really impact families, like raising the minimum wage and fighting for PAPER BALLOTS! we elected YOU to do the work of GOVT -- i've got parenting under control.

fuck.

[Hippo_Tron]

429. The DLC will never learn that they can't take values off the table

The religious wingnuts are ridiculous. If they don't find actual reasons not to vote for a Democrat on "values issues", then they will make them up. No matter how much pandering you do, they can always run ads saying that you will help put Ted Kennedy in power becuase you are a Democrat and there goes the "values voters".

Hillary, who by the way is just taking the ideas of Joementum himself, is setting herself up for defeat.

[nashville_brook]

505. we need more like your avatar -- i was drawn to wellstone like he was the

pied piper or something. i would sit glued to cspan (on the TV in the break room at a xtian mag where i worked) when he was on. he was the first politician i ever sent money to and i don't even live in his state. i wish hillary had that effect on me. but she doesn't. she has really good moments -- but the backdoor DLC stuff really eats me up.

[Hippo_Tron]

516. It's not even Wellstone's liberalism that is so amazing

It's his passion for what he did and his dedication to what he did. Democrats of all political beliefs need to learn from Wellstone. If Hillary and the other DLC members really believe in what they speak about, then they need to speak about it with passion and fight as hard as they possibly can for it. Of course, the truth is that they can't do this, because most of them don't really believe in anything other than what gets them elected.

[Ariana Celeste]

269. My SO is a lifelong gamer. & was very violent at one point.

He has been playing video games of all kinds since he was a young child. Rpg's, Fps', strategy, puzzle, adventure, etc. All kinds. His particular favorite as a young boy was Doom. You run around and kill demons. Progressively getting better weapons throughout the game, solving puzzles to finish the levels. Solving an extra puzzle to find a "secret" level. But mostly, shooting demons.

Once he hit jr. high & high school, he had become a very angry young man. He was violent, beating up kids at school.

Guess why he became that way? It wasn't video games. It wasn't shooting demons or monsters or bad guys or people in *fantasy* land. It was because he had a terrible father who started beating the crap out of him starting around age 5. Fast forward a few years- still getting beat regularly by dad, he was getting beat up at school now too. He was a geeky awkward child who didn't wear the clothes everyone else wore, was smarter than the other kids, wore glasses. So. You have a kid with no place to go, everywhere he goes he is not safe from harm. Add to that the psychological damage from people treating him like scum at school and at home.

The only safe place he had was the occasional weekend or holiday or summer at mom's. Mom didn't know what was going on, son wouldn't tell her. Son didn't want mom to feel guilty or be hurt or feel like it was her fault. Son wanted mom to be happy.

So eventually with all this torment, he ended up lashing out. He ended up beating the crap out of all the kids that taunted him and beat him up- and then some, to prove a point. That he was not to be fucked with. It wasn't the video games, no, the video games gave him something to think about other than PAIN. Once he was able to move in with his mom, and receive the love and care he needed, he was healed. And I am forever grateful to his mother for that.

Video games, tv, books, comics, they are not to blame for the violence of children. It is our society! A society where children do not come first. A society where moms and dads have to work several jobs to make ends meet, thus having no time for their children. A society where children mean nothing more than money to the guys at the top.

It's bad parents. It's irresponsible parents. It is *abusive* parents. Then unfortunately it is also the home life of children whose parents really are good, but have to be at work far too often.

Kids are being neglected. Kids are left with nothing to do, extracurricular activities being cut short due to lack of funding. No place to to go other than empty homes, so why not roam the streets, and hey, if the only kids who pay attention to you happen to be unruly kids who break the law for fun, that's better than being home, by yourself, with nothing but the tv and a frozen dinner. Right? Unfortunately, it is better in the minds of some children.

Whether there is violence in a video game or not, whether you want to believe it or not video games make children *think*. Which is more than I can say for many schools that have limited themselves to memorization and standardized testing. Critical thinking is involved in most games, because you have to solve puzzles, search for clues, etc. Even Fps games have a level of strategy to them. Games have ratings. Parents need to be responsible for what they buy for their children. Not the government. Not business. Read the labels, read the reviews, if you don't find it appropriate, don't buy it.

But please, don't fight video games, don't fight entertainment, especially *adult* entertainment.

Focus on the REAL problems in our society. Big business targeting children for big bucks. Public schools that just aren't what they used to be. Child abuse. The lack of extracurricular activities. Among many, many other things that really do affect children in a negative way.


I've never known a gamer to be negatively affected by a video game. My SO was affected by child abuse, and abuse from kids at school. I was affected by abusive alcoholics that my mother had a thing for, who abused me and my brother- both of us are lifelong gamers. Never been violent, never thought to be. Many of my friends are also lifelong gamers. None of them violent. None of them law breakers, except for the occasional use of Mary Jane. We all had bad home lives, and that is what caused problems for us. And many of us turned to video games, and books, for a fantasy world to keep us somewhat sane. It helped my brother to learn how to read, forced him to learn. It helped me with critical thinking. I can go on but this is long enough.

So, Kraklen- Awesome rant. And thanks for giving me the chance to rant as well. :)

[Phoonzang]

274. Here, here!

I'm just 24 and have one masters degree so far, but I completely agree. Especially the part about the "phony elitism". I made my own little rant about that but it pales in comparison to this one. :yourock:

[darkism]

278. Well put, Doctor. n/t

[okieinpain]

281. very well said

[Horse with no Name]

284. I am also college educated--I don't like video games AND

I am a parent and a grandparent.
IF I felt that the video game was not proper, it wouldn't be in my house.
I don't need moral legislation to be an effective parent/grandparent.
If these people can't take the time to parent effectively, then censorship isn't going to matter one bit.
You can always find something harmful to do if you look far enough.
If these kids are sneaking around and buying stuff...my question is..where do they get the money?
If you give them the money, how do you know they aren't buying drugs?
If you know for sure that they aren't buying drugs...then you know what they purchased. At this point your parenting skills are going to have to kick in. You see that they bought a video game that you don't approve of.
At this point you have your choices. If it were in my house...the game would go in the trash. It's not the store's fault that your kid bought something you didn't approve of. Your kid learns the lesson that if he sneaks around and does shit like that, he loses his toys.
Next time he will think twice about buying something unacceptable.
Very simple solution to a non-existant problem.
IF your kid has money in his pocket that you don't know what he is spending it on...well then it is probably a matter of time before you are trying to find something else to legislate, after all it's easier than actually parenting--you complain and some vote hungry politician jumps, then you sit back and wait for someone else to raise your kid through laws.:rant:

[Eloriel]

286. Well, Dr. Kraklen

You don't LOOK so elite:

"Oh, I here that Johnny Smith's parents let him play....I could say, "can you believe their raising their little Suzy....

Should be hear and they're. Your punctuation suffers from the need for a semi-colon instead of a comma in one of those sentences.


Oh, and one last thing. Cut the phony elitism. You know what I mean, "video games are mindless, useless, blah, blah, blah." You're not even an elitist, stop trying to be one. I am the elite.

Yeah, everybody, HE's the elite, and he don't want no goddamn competetion from any useless wannabes, ya hear? So just STFU. Leave the man alone. All he wants is to enjoy his GAMES, man. Leave him the hell alone. And that's FINAL.

[Kraklen]

295. Well, if you want to play that game too...

There's only one "e" in competition.

I'll make the same deal with you as I made with the other guy. Address something I brought up in the OP, and I'll drop the spelling and hypocrisy.

[hunter]

325. Sorry, I'm busy creating naked skins for my SIMS...

..and studying the breast dynamics of Nude Beach Volleyball. (I once met the guy who wrote the bouncy breast code on Slashdot!)

For just an instant I imagined I was a black guy with a big penis stealing fast cars, and I wanted to buy GTA, or steal it from the Electronic Botique to prove my manliness, but then, oh well, it all somehow escapes me.

Those bouncy vixens of the virtual volleyball court are calling, and at last, I can rightfully use this DU smilie:

:freak:

[Swamp Rat]

441. At least you spelled "hypocrisy" right this time.

:rofl:

[proud2BlibKansan]

287. I am 51. I too am highly educated.

I have also spent half my life teaching elementary school. And this game is NOT appropriate for kids. Period.

No one wants to keep you from playing it. We just want parents to be educated and have the necessary tools to protect their children.

We also don't want them exposed to pornography. This campaign is no different.

If you think I am being overly dramatic, then come spend an hour on my school's playground. Kids are much more violent than they were when you were young, even though you aren't all that old yet.

[TimeChaser]

317. But

Even before hand, children could not buy this game unless they were 17 or over. If any kid plays it, it means that the parent bought it.

[proud2BlibKansan]

319. I teach 9 and 10 year olds

and every single one of them has played this game. So whatever is being done to restrict it to adults is not working.

[RPM]

335. you are right - something is not working

its the parenting...

[Hippo_Tron]

409. So isn't that a reflection of the parents, not the indsutry?

The Box says 17+, a rating that frankly I think is a bit overdoing it. 15 and 16 year olds should be able to handle the content of a game like this and so should most 14 year olds. My point is, the game basically has sign that says MATURE 17+ on it. Shouldn't any parent with the least bit of common sense know that, that means NOT FOR 9 and 10 year olds?

[Tux]

387. As Bush 1 said

No one wants to keep you from playing it. We just want parents to be educated and have the necessary tools to protect their children.

Read my sig.

[SlavesandBulldozers]

293. damn, you're very educated for your age.

I'm the same age and don't have nearly that amount of education. You must be one of them book-learnin types, eh;)

[Dave Reynolds]

299. That effin' says it all.

Parents need to parent, not be buddies.

[leftofthedial]

304. well if you didn't rot your brain on that crap, maybe you'd have a job

:sarcasm:

[Tactical Progressive]

311. I agree with you, but you're wrong

in a number of ways.

In the first place you're an educated adult comparing your wherewithal to that of thirteen year-olds. See any problem there? I just saw a report, I think it may have been on '60 Minutes', where some teenager shot and killed two or three policemen as he broke out of the local police station, exactly as he had conditioned himself to do with video-games. There were those kids who lay down in the road for thrills like in some movie they saw a few years back. Kids, people, are impressionable. I don't think that comes close to warranting a ban on entertainment violence by any stretch, but it is a reality that society has to weigh in defining the rights of adults versus the responsiblity to kids.

Secondly, you do indeed pay that fifty bucks to in part finance Rockstar's legal imperatives. Every industry has their activities legally bounded by society. With these kinds of games that means defending 'free speech' rights. That's their onus in our society, and yes that makes it our - violent videogame consumers - cost.

And lastly, to the broader point. Is anything acceptable? Would 'Columbine 2005' be okay, with downloadable floor plans for your local high-schools? After all, it's just a game, right? I don't think so, because even if you don't let your kid play that game, what about the uncontrolled skinhead clique that goes to your kid's school?

Hillary Clinton did exactly the right thing in exactly the right way.

[Hippo_Tron]

407. Yes, Columbine 2005 is acceptable

Personally I think that it's disgusting, but we have something called the first amendment. We also have a self regulating industry. If such a game were ever made commercially, stores would have to refuse to carry it or face massive boycotts. Bottom line, the game would never be made commercially, because it would never be profitable.

On to your first point...

Blaming behavior on a video game is a way of saying that people aren't responsible for their actions. I played Mortal Kombat when I was 13. Did that make me want to go out and start fights? No, because I knew that unlike in the video game, getting punched or kicked in the face HURTS. So, since not all kids who play violent video games commit violent actions, how is this the video game's fault. Furthermore, isn't the fact that this teenager got his hands on a gun, just a slight lack of responsibility on the parents' part? Isn't the fact that this kid perhaps wasn't taught that unlike in video games, there are consequences to his actions, his parents' fault? Oh yea and what about the kid himself? He may be impressionable, but he still has a functioning brain. Isn't it his fault that he decided to do this?

[nadinbrzezinski]

415. So where exactly does Corporate responsibility begin

Do Corporations ever have any responsibly?

By this logic if I fully extend it, I should not be able to claim any harm from Acme Corporation after their pollutants lead to my cancer, because the water is filthy...

Game companies, like any other company do have a responsibility as well, and to think they don't and the market place will solve all... well welcome to fascist America where corporations rule.

Sorry I cannot believe I am readying this here... so Enron is not guilty, just their investors who should have known better?

[Hippo_Tron]

416. I didn't say that there should be no corporate responsibility

But in the sense that we have a first amendment, people have a right to make and sell whatever video games that we want. The industry is already required to submit their games to the ESRB for content rating?

Acme corporation should be brought to justice because it is not their water that they are polluting, it is the public's water that they are polluting. Enron should be brought to justice because it is not their money that they were fooling around with, it was their investors'.

What exactly are the video game companies infringing on that does not belong to them?

[nadinbrzezinski]

432. Going back to the ESRB

they did nto reveal a piece of content that was part of the game... personally that content pushing that game from M to AO is kind of lame and I think it is more the you did what? but it is not the fact that the ESRB was presented with content, but that the full content was not revealed.

Here is their full statement



http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/latimests/hidd ...

As late as last week, Take-Two had insisted that the sex scenes were "the work of a determined group of hackers who have gone to significant trouble to alter scenes in the official version of the game." Hackers, the company said, created the scenes by "disassembling and then combining, recompiling and altering the game's code."

The scenes prompted an outcry from game critics, including Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton (D-N.Y.), who last week called for a federal investigation into "Hot Coffee."

The Entertainment Software Ratings Board began a review to determine whether the scenes were part of the game's original code and warranted a re-rating of "San Andreas," versions of which play on Sony Corp (NYSE:SNE - news).'s PlayStation 2, Microsoft Corp.'s Xbox and personal computers.

"After a thorough investigation, we have concluded that sexually explicit material exists in a fully rendered, unmodified form on the final discs of all three platform versions of the game," said Patricia Vance, president of the ratings board. "Clearly the rating was incorrect, and it needed to be corrected."

[Hippo_Tron]

438. Okay, I concede, Rockstar entertainment fucked with the ESRB a little

They misled the ESRB to get an 18+ game rated 17+. Meanwhile, our soldiers are still dieing every day in Iraq, children's' education and after school programs are being cut while Bush tries to "balance the budget, 50 million Americans still don't have healthcare, millions of Americans are out of work and can't find work, and Bush is about to put a guy on the Supreme Court who may very well set this country back 50 years.

Rockstar entertainment committed a minor injustice, big fucking deal. Senator Clinton and the other 99 members of the Senate need to deal with the real injustices before they deal with trivial stuff like this.

[nadinbrzezinski]

481. Trivial stuff like this is exactly what lets Enron

get away with murder. The corporations can do no wrong, try to connect the dots... corporate malfeasance will continue as long as we, as a society, continue to say, but but but this is trivial

Well yes it is trivial in the overall scheme of things... but we also said that about Enron. We most stop tolerating this for every level of company in this country.

Connect the dots, you are basically letting the corporation off the hook since they are just small frye...

Heck I have had companies stael material from me, but hey they are just small frye... I was told by a corporate friendly professional body, shoot it happens, take it as a business loss... this is what is so maddening about this. People complaint about the Enrons of the world, but this starts somewhere and it does in our willingness to let them off because it is a small thing... this is fascism impersonated and people have been conditioned by the corporations to react exactly as you just did.. but it is minor.

Ok don't complaint when Halliburton embezzles billions ok... it is just a corporation after all.

[Hippo_Tron]

485. Umm I dunno about you, but I complained about Enron and Halliburton

But this isn't Enron and Halliburton, it's not even close.

[nadinbrzezinski]

496. But this is how it starts

minor stuff, company stole bunch of ideas from me... they never paid, these days we get to play a fine game of spot the stolen materail

Profesional organization, shoot that is a business loss.

See this is what leads to Enron and Halliburton... they don't start big, and it is our collective attitude that allows this at all levels (and god I have complained about both Enron and Halliburton), that allows for major and minor matters to unfold.

These days I choose not to give a pass to either Rockstar or halliburton, see how this works?

Oh adn the company taht stole things from me, I don't buy from them and I will tell people about them so they don't get involved with them

[fujiyama]

312. I'm with ya

I'm tired of this nanny state attitude.

While GTA may not meet everyone's standards of high art, it's a form of free expression. It may be offensive, but art often is.

The game has an M rating. Kids shouldn't be playing it.

This is a matter of parental responsibility, not government regulation.

[madmark]

315. I would like to second your view

I have played and enjoyed GTA (but the best game of all time is by far Command & Conquer ) and have a problem with the nanny state piling on my entertainment. You would think with all this mindless entertainment going on that I would not have a JD and make more money than most republicans, but I do. I submit that for me PC games are like crack but without the negative physical side effects. I could never function as effectively on crack as I do on Command & Conquor.

With respect to children, I am going to confess that if my 2 year old daughter started to demand to play GTA with the same passion and conviction that she currently employs when demanding to watch Dora The Explorer or the Wiggles, I'm going to give in. Thankfully, she is only supplementing her Dora The Explorer and Wiggles with some Barney and Elmo. Barney is particularly sweet.

[TimeChaser]

318. I will third it

Even though I prefer RPGs and strategy games :)

[BiggJawn]

320. I don't play GTA.

I used to play "Aces of the Deep".
Sent a 42,000 ton troopship to the bottom once. Wonder how many were aboard it?

If you don't want your kids to play "Grand Theft Auto" or "Leisure Suit Larry in Loungelizard Land" then it's up to YOU, Not Hillary Clinton.

"But think of the CHILDREN!" Uh, no, YOU think of the children. YOU had 'em, YOU raise 'em.

[postulater]

323. From your headline I thought you were going to say

you couldn't find a job.

Agreed about the censorship though.

[Nevernose]

326. So far I've killed over a thousand cops -- not one Congressman complained

But if I go way out of my way to add a patch (which I hadn't even heard about, incidentally, until it hit the news) that happens to show me some boobies (which are freely available on late night teenage-girl-exploitation-infomercials anyway)...

Well shit, if THAT should happen, somebody call congress and have them pass a fucking law against tits in video games right goddamned now. I'm a taxpayer.

[Hard_Work]

327. excellent

:yourock: :applause:

[Beelzebud]

343. Agreed. I wonder if Hillary realizes that she is alienating the 18-25

year olds?

For the Children? Give me a break! If your young kids are playing GTA your job as a parent is already a failure!

[Stormy78]

370. A friend of mine

Has played games like this in front of her kids and he's not doing one thing to emulate the behavior, so some of them are doing their job right.

As it's been repeated a thousand times, it is NOT THE MANUFACTURER'S RESPONSIBILITY TO RAISE YOUR KIDS. IT'S YOURS. She teaches this child that anything in a video game is make believe and it is not to be repeated in real life. That's the way it should be. This isn't the '80s anymore. The average video game player is age 30. Deal with it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

384. If you vote for a repuke because of this

you deserve teh draft, and then some

What yuo should be doing is demandign the industry does its job, so the wind is taken off them sails

[Redstone]

359. Uh, you have all those college degrees and you

don't know when to use "they're" instead of "their?"

Or the proper use of apostrophes?

Redstone

[Stormy78]

371. lol

no comment.

[patcox2]

447. Hey, cut him some slack, its understandable in the circumstances.

After all, someone has threatened to take away his precious video games. he would no longer be able to "relax" by pretending to commit crimes and kill people. How can you relax without pretending to kill people? Its perfectly understandable for someone faced with losing the ability to compulsively fantasize about murder to make a spelling or grammar mistake.

[ArkDem]

489. Remind you of this Steely Dan verse?

You been tellin’ me you’re a genius
Since you were seventeen
In all the time I’ve known you
I still don’t know what you mean
The weekend at the college
Didn’t turn out like you planned
The things that pass for knowledge
I can’t understand

[Blue_Tires]

389. well said

i also have an advanced degree and have been a big fan video games since atari's heyday in the early 80s. (I also love the GTA series)

[Tux]

391. Hey, lazy parents

Thanks to Hillary, we have this.
http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/07/22/0249237&threshold=-1&tid=158&tid=103&tid=17

Thanks for the distraction and increasing the need for a fascist nanny state.

[KTM]

394. Screw the kids

I am so sick of the "what about the children" mentality. I DONT agree it is a collective responsibility. Did I have a choice in whether or not you had kids ? No. Believe me.. if I did, it would be a much less populated world.

If YOU choose to breed, it's YOUR responsibility. Period.

While were at it, I dont think you should get a tax break for breeding either. I am married, no kids, in a two-professional family. If you and I make the same amount of money, YOU get a tax break becasue you chose to bring kids into the world, but I pay the full fare. YOU added more mouths to feed, more minds to teach - YOU added a potential criminal to house, a potential person who may need the safety net... YOU should pay EXTRA for that. I didnt risk increasing the burden on society one iota.. why am I paying more ??

To heck with 'em. If you cant regulate your childrens activities, thats your issue - leave me, and my game playing options, out of it.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

405. Ouch.

I somewhat agree with you, although I do believe in child tax credits, but ONLY if the difference isn't made up by childless people.

Here in Los Angeles, it's an everyday occurence for me to see a woman pushing a stroller with at least three small children tagging along.

Obviously, I want these kids to be well-fed, well-educated, etc., and I am willing to pay for it, even though I am of very modest means. My main problem is that the ultra-rich are basically shielded from chipping in their fair share.

Of course, I also have a problem with people who keep having kids when they know they can't afford them, but I can't possibly blame the kids for that.

But I digress.

[bloom]

474. this is starting to sound like the "I hate kids" thread

or the "I resent parents" thread. or both.

[JVS]

395. Well said

[djg21]

399. Look at the bright side . . .

All of the publicity is leading to increased sales revenues (I need to buy this game and I don't even play computer games!), which, in turn, offset, and likely exceed, the legal bills. And, Hil's investigation is going nowhere fast!

[Hippo_Tron]

406. I love how that ALWAYS happens...

Bill O'Reilly complains about Al Franken's book, more people go and buy Al Franken's book. Fundie nutballs protest Farenheight 9/11, more people go to see Farenheight 9/11. Hillary bitches about GTA San Andreos (a game that's been out for almost a year now), people will now go out and buy GTA. The company should send Hillary a thank-you note for boosting their sales.

[Hippo_Tron]

402. Hey Hillary, how many kids got screwed by the Bankruptcy Act?

How many kids won't have a future because their parents became enslaved to the credit industry because of medical bills or other impossible expsneses. Where was your moral OUTRAGE on that one Mrs. Clinton, oh yea that's right, you were absent. How many kids live in substandard housing or don't have enough food to eat because of the Welfare "Reform" Act your husband passed while he was in office. Did you have anything to say when that one was on the table Mrs. Clinton? How many kids got screwed because you and your husband sold healthcare out to insurance companies? Good job on that one Mrs. Clinton.

Yea I'm concerned about our children, but the video games they play is not one of my concerns.

Keep sucking up the the "values voters" Hillary, see how far it gets you.

[Tux]

422. But

Video game makers are ruining kids. We have to remove our freedoms....for the kids.

[drhilarius]

418. I almost have a Ph. D., and I play GTA...

And I would like to say just a few things in defense of that (although I think an adult having to justify his or her entertainment choices is absolutely ridiculous)-

1. To the culture/ moral elite- I can do, and be interested in, two things at once. I can, believe it or not, sit down and read Ulysses or Gravity's Rainbow for eight hours, or attend a production of The Tempest or Don Giovanni, and then I can come home and GTA for a few hours. In fact, as a student of aesthetics and narrative structure, I find that these activities (literary exploration and gameplay) are not mutually exclusive. Both activities require a careful balance between an attention to detail/ deep mental focus and an ability to abstract/ manifest a space outside of one's self.

Indeed, I have seen some people chastise others for the desire to experience, in its totality, the "thug's life" (however virtual that life may be. Is it wrong or base to want to know what it feels like to be a criminal? If you think so, then I think that belief, or at least acting on that belief in the form of an admonishment, is a restriction of and insult to the human imagination. Do you like theater, or film, or books? Do you know that your favorite villain would not have existed if it were not for the ability of artists to imagine themselves, convincingly, in a life outside of their own bodies. The 17 year old, or responsible 14 year old, who plays GTA today may end up writing the next Don Corleone, the next Iago, the next Dr. Moriarty.

As for games being base- well, people said the same things about the novel as a form. They said the same things about Film. Old Willy Shakes was for the hoi polloi, the, literally, unwashed masses. Are games going to reach that level, have that sort of cultural import/staying power? Who knows? I will say, however, that it is a genre in its infancy, and I find the games, and the stories that drive those games, increasingly more involved and compelling.

But, no doubt, you will turn up your nose at me, accuse me of being base, crude, common. Why? What would you suggest? Perhaps I should light an aroma therapy candle, sit in a quiet room in the lotus position and "clear my mind". Well, frankly, I find that ridiculous- sitting in a room, literally empty headed, attempting to get in touch with a spirit/universal consciousness/ chi that, most likely, doesn't exist. I experience myself intensely everyday, games, and art in general, gives me a path, thankfully, outside of myself.

2)for the Helen Lovejoys- Be a parent. Indeed, as Hill says, it takes a village to raise a child. But it is irresponsible, and even dangerous, for that village to attempt to shield that child from the realities of the world. we live in a world of sex and violence. Should your kids learn that from GTA? No. Should they learn it? Absolutely. As a parent it is your job to talk about those things, no matter how painful or awkward that may be. Equip your child with the understanding of those things, and they can better handle things like GTA.

At any rate, I have to go back and work for a bit...so then i can treat myself to a little GTA in the morning.

[Tux]

423. As parents would ask

Why do you hate America?

[Desertrose]

421. nevermind....

[NMMNG]

426. Well said

I get into so many debates on other boards with the morality police who whine about the content of television, movies, music and the like. They want the government to censor this and that so their precious children won't be exposed to ta-tas and booties, curse words and other horrors. I want to know why they think the government should raise their freaking children for them--after all, aren't they the brats' parents?

If a televsion show's content bother's you you have several choices. Use the channel blocking program provided by your cable service, use your v-chip or turn the darn tv off. TV was never meant to be a babysitter in the first place. It was never meant to be something you plop your kids in front of for eight to twelve hours a day while you attend to your own desires.

And movies? If your kid is seeing movies that are unacceptable to you that is your fault. If the kid is with you then you should have determined ahead of time whether or not the movie was acceptable to you. If the kid is sneaking behind your back and seeing unacceptable movies it is your job as a parent to police his/her actions and take appropriate action.

As to music, it is your responsibility to monitor your child's listening habits. You provide your child's allowance so you need to monitor what s/he buys with it. If your child has a part-time job their wages, in many states, legally belong to you. Therefore if they are not spending them according to your rules you can take them away.

You are the parent. Stop expecting the government to do your job and in the process make other responsible adults suffer.

:rant:

[hnsez]

434. I have a Masters, I play GTA

My 7 year old daughter isn't allowed to watch Disney "teen" shows and I don't play GTA in front of my kids or allow them access to it.

I am a parent does anyone understand what that means anymore?

I don't need the government to protect my kids from a computer or a TV that I can simply unplug.

[tkmorris]

442. Mark Morford gets it better than you do

Here, have some link. http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/gate/archive/2005/07/22/notes072205.DTL&nl=fix

Oh and by the way. You aint elite, you just possess some paper that says you're educated. It takes more than that to make you elite young man. For example, logic, which your post lacks, and the ability to actually USE THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE, which also somehow got left out of your degree program.

In fact I think you are just spouting noise about your degrees. It's easier to believe that than it is to believe that there is an American university granting degrees to someone who so clearly lacks basic skills.

You like adult video games? Fine, you're an adult. Us PARENTS out here however would like to have the ability to monitor what our children have access to. None of the people you rail against want to prevent you from playing GTA or any other game. Your cries of "censorship" are just so much hot air. No one is preventing you from playing, nor do they want to. We just want to know what our children are doing.

It amuses me that you rant about how parents should take more control over their children yet in the same breath you denigrate those who are merely attempting to make sure that parents have the tools to make informed decisions.

This little issue over GTA does not affect me and mine in the slightest because no child in my house will be playing GTA anytime soon. They can play it when they are 18, live somewhere else, and pay their own cash over the counter for it. Though I sincerely hope that I raised them not to want to. However, marketing a games content and acquiring an "M" rating for it while including on the very CD content which would draw an AO rating is just plain dishonest. Don't you think that Rockstar Games knew that this content would be uncovered? It's little more than an easter egg, the kind of "hidden content" that Windows itself included not long ago. It takes less work to delete it from the finished product than it does to flag it on the CD.

To sum up sir, you may or may not be educated, but you clearly have a lot to learn. I suggest you stop thinking that you are already elite and get down to the business of actually learning. It's a lifelong process. You do not get to accomplish things and then declare yourself superior. You will always have much knowledge and wisdom to attain and there will always be more to aspire to.

[Kraklen]

487. I should have figured...

that a rant about book-burning fascists would bring out the grammar nazis.

Perhaps if you had read my OP instead of proofreading my OP, you may have realized that my educational history was to put to bed the notion that video games are for children and imbeciles. But I guess we can't all read at a high school level.

As for the ESRB nonsense, I guess you didn't pick up on that either. It's bullshit. Red herring bullshit. It's fine if you think that's what it's about and that it's got nothing to do with censorship, but you aren't fooling anybody but yourself.

Maybe I do have a lot to learn. It's not going to be from you.

[bloom]

502. I hope everyone reads the Mark Morford essay you linked.

It's perfect.


The only thing I disagree with - is that probably if anything - they'll sell MORE of these games because of all of the publicity.


"...Meanwhile, just down America's street, countless thousands of young U.S. soldiers are hobbling home from Iraq and Afghanistan, wounded and disabled and limbless and traumatized to the bone, eyes deadened to the world and permanently scarred to their cores and in interviews and documentaries and various news stories you often hear many of them say this one weirdly similar thing.

They say, wow man, yeah, it sure was amazing over there, totally surreal, killin' all those people with rapid-fire machine guns and firing rounds of mortar shells into buildings that might've been, for all we knew, hospitals or schools, and using night-vision goggles to invade decimated towns to hunt down crazed guerrillas and riding in those tanks and blowing the crap out of those Iraqi villages and hearing those women scream and watching those bodies burn.

This is what they say: Oh man, you know what it reminded me of? You know what it was like over there, what with all the killing and the violence and the guns? It was just like, well, it was just like a video game...."

[youspeakmylanguage]

449. Bravo!

:applause::applause::applause:

I'm so sick of arguing with the DU Puritan Book-Burning Brigade on this subject. Thanks for saying everything that needs to be said for me.

[SemperEadem]

450. Right on!!! Well said

when the day is done, it still comes down to the fact that one's kids are their responsibility to monitor and bring up right. If one can't be so bothered as to pay attention to what their children are playing, perhaps they should be taken and placed with someone who will make the time to supervise them.

[trogdor]

458. You all don't get it.

It's not about GTA. It's about a goddam EASTER EGG in the game where YOU get to FUCK somebody. That's a no-brainer AO rating in my book. All the company has to do to get their MA rating back is REMOVE THE FUCKING EASTER EGG. That's it. As soon as they do that, you can go right back to capping people in the ass, stealing their cars and running over cops, or whatever else it is that makes GTA so fun. Is that so hard to understand?

[ScreamingMeemie]

488. I'm a mother and I can't stand the game.

n/t.

[Kraklen]

490. That's great.

Don't play it.

[ScreamingMeemie]

495. You missed my point...somehow a PHd akes you better than the

rest of us? I think not. Anyone who chooses to play this game, IMO, is a little messed up. You want fun? Play Crash Bandicoot...it's a hoot.

[Kraklen]

498. No, I got your point.

You're a mom. You don't like the game.

Although you've obviously missed mine- games aren't just for kids.

Crash Bandicoot?

That was a decent platformer five or six years ago. Now that's a kid's game.

[slutticus]

511. No, I think his point is that not all fans of such games are "un-educated"

Many of them...in fact...are probably highly educated.

It really fucking burns me when people think they can tell me what I should and should not be playing.

Your self righteousness ...i.e. "anyone who chooses to play this game, IMO, is a little messed up" is quite insulting.

I also have a Ph.D....I don't think i'm better than you...but somehow you think you're better than me because I like this game?????

I don't think kraklen is the one being pretentious here, as your reply implied,...it is in fact yourself.

[Demonaut]

491. the issue is hiding other explicit programs within the game, get a grip!

a formal education proves that intellect is no guarantee of common sense

[Kraklen]

492. No it's not.

The issue is about appealing to the rightwing. It's Zell Millerism.

Ignoring that, it's about the "declining values of American culture." Ergo, censorship bullshit.

No guarantee of common sense indeed.

[Demonaut]

493. Yes it is

declining values, declined standards, declining common sense. I have no problem with the violence of GTA but it's like another poster said, Its about the FUCKING EASTER EGG. It should have been labeled and rated as such.

[Kraklen]

494. Well there you go.

"Declining values."

Good old fashioned pro-censorship newspeak.

[nadinbrzezinski]

499. It is about an Eastern Egg

and corporate malfeasance, I see them fine schools are not teaching critical thinking no more.

[Demonaut]

501. you've adopted the RW method of disclosure, "what you dont know wont

hurt me, what you find out might"

[Pepperbelly]

504. Very, very good points ... however, regarding your last paragraph ...

Stephen Johnson's book, EVERYTHING BAD IS GOOD FOR YOU: HOW TODAY'S POP CULTURE IS ACTUALLY MAKING US SMARTER, take the exact opposite position than the nattering critics of all things fun.

-snip-

This book is, ultimately, the story of how the kind of thinking that I was doing on my bedroom floor became an everyday component of mass entertainment. It's the story of how systems analysis, probability theory, pattern recognition, and -- amazingly enough -- old-fashioned patience became indispensable tools for anyone trying to make sense of modern pop culture. Because the truth is my solitary obsession with modeling complex simulations is now ordinary behavior for most consumers of digital age entertainment. This kind of education is not happening in classrooms or museums; it's happening in living rooms and basements, on PCs and television screens. This is the Sleeper Curve: The most debased forms of mass diversion-video games and violent television dramas and juvenile sitcoms-turn out to be nutritional after all. For decades, we've worked under the assumption that mass culture follows a steadily declining path toward lowest-common-denominator standards, presumably because the "masses" want dumb, simple pleasures and big media companies want to give the masses what they want. But in fact, the exact opposite is happening: the culture is getting more intellectually demanding, not less.

Most of the time, criticism that takes pop culture seriously involves performing some kind of symbolic analysis, decoding the work to demonstrate the way it represents some other aspect of society. You can see this symbolic approach at work in academic cultural studies programs analyzing the ways in which pop forms expressed the struggle of various disenfranchised groups: gays and lesbians, people of color, women, the third world. You can see it at work in the "zeitgeist" criticism featured in media sections of newspapers and newsweeklies, where the critic establishes a symbolic relationship between the work and some spirit of the age: yuppie self-indulgence, say, or post-9/11 anxiety.

The approach followed in this book is more systemic than symbolic, more about causal relationships than metaphors. It is closer, in a sense, to physics than to poetry. My argument for the existence of the Sleeper Curve comes out of an assumption that the landscape of popular culture involves the clash of competing forces: the neurological appetites of the brain, the economics of the culture industry, changing technological platforms. The specific ways in which those forces collide play a determining role in the type of popular culture we ultimately consume. The work of the critic, in this instance, is to diagram those forces, not decode them.

Sometimes, for the sake of argument, I find it helpful to imagine culture as a kind of man-made weather system. Float a mass of warm, humid air over cold ocean water, and you'll create an environment in which fog will thrive. The fog doesn't appear because it somehow symbolically reenacts the clash of warm air and cool water. Fog arrives instead as an emergent effect of that particular system and its internal dynamics. The same goes with popular culture: certain kinds of environments encourage cognitive complexity; others discourage complexity. The cultural object-the film or the video game-is not a metaphor for that system; it's more like an output or a result.

The forces at work in these systems operate on multiple levels: underlying changes in technology that enable new kinds of entertainment; new forms of online communications that cultivate audience commentary about works of pop culture; changes in the economics of the culture industry that encourage repeat viewing; and deep-seated appetites in the human brain that seek out reward and intellectual challenge. To understand those forces we'll need to draw upon disciplines that don't usually interact with one another: economics, narrative theory, social network analysis, neuroscience.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4762320

I think he could well be absolutely right.

[geckosfeet]

515. UR A Jerk, too.

[Moderator]

517. Locking

Locking for length (500+ posts), and because the discussion has degenerated into a flamefest.

DU Moderator