Another debate with my GOP friends

[navvet]

This time they stated that the problem with progressives is that they believe that the public should be ruled by the educated class and that the poor rubes of the common public should just shut up and be led by the superior smart people.

One of my friends said that this is AKA a dictatorship of the proletariat, and that Russia tried in once and failed at it.

I said that liberal/progressive do not act superior to other social/economic class and put their clothes on just like we all do.

I was met with derisive laughter from some.

One thought that they were going to far, and were some what Limbaugh like.

Still they were adamant that liberals consider themselves superior to us so called "common folk" and used as a example Katrina Vandehugel (spelling??) who edits/writes for the Nation magazine.

The discussion went on in that vain for awhile when a really troubling comment was made that liberals/progressives do not really believe in defending the nation, since they argue against anyone going into the military, and actively discourage any one from doing so.

I noted my USN service and was told I am an exception to the rule, beside I was a friend and therefor exempt from these comments.

Are we as progressives that shallow, I think not but it sure is hard to con vice some long time friends otherwise.

These guys are really good people who work hard and play by the rules they just see the world in a more conservative manner.

Thoughts???

[rateyes]

1. Debating with those guys is a waste of time...

They might be "good guys" and all of that, but they sound brain-washed, the certainly don't know the truth. And how many of them are of age, and instead of standing around talking with you, should have been manning a post in Iraq?

Edit for typo.

[seabeyond]

2. Are we as progressives that shallow, .................yes

in many areas and it pisses me off. lol lol. when i do my challenging. yes. i agree with your friends. i wish we would own that part of who we are. now......there are things your friend has to won, that is causing us way more damage right now, than liberal elites holier than thou

so, i dont mess much with the left, there are too many problems with the right. and right is who is setting law, and creating the enviroment we are living

[getmeouttahere]

3. But if they support BushCo...

how can you take them seriously? It's one thing to be a conservative, but this admin hasn't been the least bit fiscally conservative, and are out of the mainstream socially. As for their generelizations of progressives, that's exactly what they are...generalizations. I also served in the military, as have thousands, maybe millions, of other progressives over the years.

Once this country was run by the "Best and the Brightest." I personally want my president to be the smartest person in the room wherever he goes. Is that so wrong? If that is being superior, then so be it. Any liberal/progressive I have ever known is a lot more concerned about the well-being of their fellow man than the average conservative. And they often back it up with action.

[navvet]

10. Actually one of them is quite upset with GOP fiscal policy

and he argued that the tax cut did not need to happen (but that taxes did not need to go up) he wanted the tax situation to stay status quo.

He agreed with me that Bush should have instituted a sur-charge to help pay for the war on terror.

In those regards somewhat liberal, but his son is active duty USAF and he hates the Kennedys with a passion and believes that is reason enough to vote GOP he also has animosity to a former governor of Wisc Tony Earl and local Democrats.

I tried to convince him for Kerry last fall but he was convinced that the Democrats just would not keep the nation safe.

He also has a problem with gay marriage.

:argh:

[Beaver Tail]

4. Here is how I would respond

Who would you prefer to be responsible for education, someone who is experienced in education or someone who is not? Try having a Motor Vehicle Mechanic balance your accounting records and see what happens. The only thing they know how to balance is tires (no offence intended to Mechanics, just making an example).

The superiority card is always played by conservatives to demonize those who do not agree with them. The actual fact is they are trying to make themselves look like they are persecuted. YOu can see plenty of examples when conservatives play the morally superior wildcard to demonize countries like Canada or most of the European countries.

It was Democrats that were in charge in WW II

The Majority of Democrat Politicians served in the armed forces. The Majority of Republicans Politicians did not.

[brooklynite]

5. A simple question to ask...

who are the "common folk" leading conservatives?

- the Bush Family (wealthy, Yale educated)?
- Richard Melon Scaife? (wealthy banking family)?
- the Wylie Brothers (wealthy Republican businessmen; fund the "Club for Growth")?
- T Boone Pickens (ditto)?

also, dig up a picture of the "common folk" at the the Black-tie Bush Inaugural Balls, and the video of W at the Al Smith Dinner in 2000 ("Some call you the elite; I call you my base")

[navvet]

12. They would counter with the Kennedy's and

wealthy Hollywood types (shades of the "Trouble with Kansas").


:shrug:

[Norquist Nemesis]

6. Okaayyyyy...how about this one?

Would they care to explain what the 'conservatives' believe...just for once? It seems to me that this is another case of "the problem with progressives/liberals/democrats/<fill in the blank> is" another false-statement put forth by people claiming to espouse a "Conservative" viewpoint. And it seems that the only thing the "Conservative" viewpoint espouses is telling "progressives/liberals/democrats/<fill in the blank>" what's wrong with them, while conveniently avoiding any discussion of what type of country "conservatives" believe we should live in.

[navvet]

13. Not a bad point

they for the most part only bitch about the Democrats but offer no other ideas.

One is against the local idea of TABOR though, but they fall IMHO in the category described by Frank in his recent book.

[gratuitous]

7. You need some preparation

If you think that progressives are "that shallow."

In the meantime, when your conservative friends claim that progressives just want the dumb rubes to shut up, you might point out that we're currently being led by a rube-ocracy and how do they like the results: Unending war, soldiers and civilians dying by the thousands, Treasury squandered by the billions, more and more people slipping below the poverty line without health insurance, water and air becoming more toxic by the day while the corporations make obscene profits by contracting out their labor overseas.

And that's just off the top of my head.

As for not defending the nation, ask your friends if they're talking about Woodrow Wilson leading us to victory in World War I or Franklin Roosevelt winning World War II? Perhaps they mean Richard Nixon, who engineered and presided over our defeat in Vietnam, while the deaths and casualties skyrocketed from 1969 to 1974?

[navvet]

14. Gary thinks that the

tax cuts should not have been made but he is hung up on the residue of Viet Nam and the fact that his son (my God son) is active duty USAF makes him leary of the Democrats.

He says the last Democrat that gave a damm about the nations defense was Kennedy. He hated Clinton with a passion.

He is uneasy with gay marriage and considers gays to be to in your face.

You know maybe he is the shallow one.

[gratuitous]

18. Many drops of water will wear away a stone

Keep your talking points polished, particularly in regard to what's going on in Iraq. Certainly going to war in Iraq hasn't kept England safe from further attacks. And if a terrorist is determined to bomb someplace, even to the point of losing his life, does it make sense to foment even more hatred and distrust by launching a pre-emptive war, or to reduce the causes for which the terrorists are willing to die?

I'm sure your friend wouldn't hesitate to lay down his life for his son, should his son be threatened, especially if by getting himself killed, his son would be safe. But would your friend lay down his life if his son wasn't being threatened? If no one was coming for his son, he wouldn't need to die to protect his son. Similarly, if the United States wasn't set on a path that threatens so many people around the world, those same people wouldn't feel the need to lay down their own lives to protect their own countries and fellow citizens.

[navvet]

20. Hard to argue that logic

[KansDem]

8. Tell them we tried being ruled by a dumbshit...

...and look where it got us. We even have proof from the last five years.

...liberals/progressives do not really believe in defending the nation, since they argue against anyone going into the military, and actively discourage any one from doing so.

Ask them why they would support fighting in Bush's war based on lies. Ask them why they're not in Iraq now, fighting for BushCorp.

[navvet]

15. Be careful going there!!

His son Scott (my God son) has done 2 tours in Iraq, and Gary is not happy about it, but honestly believes that the Democrats would not protect the nation.

He thinks the Iraq war is okay although he is begining to have doubts.

[Finder]

9. Not shallow, we are relativists...

and have a different perspective. The "average Joe" is concerned with issues that affect them directly for the most part--Gas prices, taxes, unemployment, etc...They remember the tax rebate check Bush sent them but Falluja they never heard of....

Memos from the UK, CIA identities and torture(which most just see as frat boy pranks thanks to the RW slant)are not things that matter to them.

The "average Joe's" reality is self-centered and discussions about anything that will not benefit them directly are seen as "shallow"--go figure. Patriotism has been redefined. The past has been rewritten etc...

Most just see Watergate as being simply a break-in with a lot of politics played. Iran/Contra was a brilliant way to free american hostages and on and on...

[navvet]

16. Well stated and well put

that sums them up to a pretty good degree, add in some of the ideas from Thomas Frank and you can have a pretty good picture of them.

[denverbill]

11. Democrats think we should be ruled by smart people.

Republicans would rather be led by a dumb rich person. Personally, I'd rather be ruled over by Albert Einstein than Paris Hilton. If that makes me elitist, then fine, I'm elitist.

[info being]

25. Exactly. Being smart is only a negative if you are ignorant.

[Brewman_Jax]

17. Debating with GOP'ers

is like trying to teach a pig to sing. I know quite a few GOP'ers. I'm one of "those" people GOP'ers vote to keep controlled.

Being a vet, I've taken to carrying a copy of my DD-214 on occasion. Should the topic come up, I ask, "Okay, here's my form. If you're such a patriot, you'd be a vet, too." They shut up and change topics quickly.

A good friend of brother is a kool-aid scarfing unrepentant freeper. They've been gaming friends for years. He's even helped my brother move. Listening to my brother talk about him and his views makes me cringe. The guy sounds like a candidate for Aryan Nation, except that he's Catholic and too well-educated for the KKK. Another one I know would probably sooner cut off body parts than vote democratic. All have the same access to information I do, and yet, are neo-cons. I could go on.

Are they really good people? I've had to wrestle with that. They're good in the sense that they aren't criminals, pay their bills, look after their families, and the like. Listening to them, these people are the ones that I really wouldn't want to turn my back on.

[sinkingfeeling]

19. Really? Funny the vast majority of millionaires support the GOP

100%. It is the party of the wealthy! Democrats are called 'elistist' because of their intelligence, not their social status. However, if one looks at the demographics of the Democratic party, one would see that it is the one with all economic classes, all minority groups, etc., making it anything but elistist!

I have never heard that progressives believe 'the public should be ruled by educated class'. Progressives believe the people should control the govern themselves with equal rights protection to all.

[kiki]

21. Tell them thanks...

...and then say you never want to hear another comment about "liberal idiots" or "morans". Then ask them each to admit, there and then, that they are less intelligent - or to put it another way, MORE STUPID - than the average liberal. Hell, get it in writing, then bring it out at the next debate.

Then - and we'll try a military analogy here, because it'll really get to all the La-Z-Boy patriots - ask them: If you were "in the shit", who would you want as your commanding officer... an intelligent man, or Gomer Pyle? Extend the analogy to the apparently godlike position of Commander in Chief, and the job's done.

[getmeouttahere]

22. Bravo, kiki

That was stellar...I'm still sitting here chuckling, 5 minutes later!

[info being]

26. They know we're smarter because they don't understand us.

We sometimes talk of things you don't see on TV. It confuses them and they hate us for it.

[kiki]

28. They hate us for our brains...

The sentiments expressed in the OP are proof that these people are proud - not resigned, PROUD - to be stupid.

[BurtWorm]

23. George Bush may not be all that bright, but he's not a "common person."

Why don't wingers get that? Bush is a product of Andover, Yale and Harvard. His father was president. His grandfather was a Senator. His greatgrandfather was a financier. He's related to Elizabeth II somehow. This is not a commoner.

[info being]

24. They know we're better and they're jeaulous

That's what all this is about. "I won't have some coffee-drinking, book-reading pretty-boy tell me how to vote." That's what election 2004 was about, and in some ways I hope these ignorant people pay dearly.

[Tactical Progressive]

27. If we were elitist and patronizing

we would say that we know better than they do how society should be structured and that people in general have insufficient awareness of, education in, and abilities to make many of the decisions that a society as a whole needs to make beyond those that flow from just individual preference.

But we're not elitist and patronizing, and so what I say is that they're assholes. Plain and simple, fucking assholes.

You could go into the particulars of each argument about how it is Bush that left this country open to terrorist attack. How Republicans are the ones who make sure to avoid defending this country. How Democrats are the ones fighting for the common man. But that's all just defensive, and they don't listen anyways, so why bother.

Just go on the attack immediately. Republicans don't care about America. All they care about is them and theirs. Republicans don't believe in democracy. All they believe in is what they want, and facts, reason or fairness don't even begin to enter into it.

Republicans are the liars. Republicans are the cheats. Republicans are the thieves. If they don't like that, tell them that Republicans are the traitors too.

It may take you years to understand how these people are, but take it from me, anything else is a waste of your beautiful mind.