Post Reports Gen. Shelton Questions Clark's Integrity/Character

[EagleEye]

The retired general also addressed criticism leveled at him earlier this week by the former chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, retired Gen. Hugh Shelton, who said Clark had been called home early from his European command because of questions of "integrity and character."

Clark said he had "no idea" what Shelton was referring to.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A7379-2003Sep26.html

Shouldn't we hold off on Clark for now? I wanted him to be VP for Dean, but I am nervous about all this. And I am concerned by how many idolize him without really knowing him.

[Padraig18]

1. Hmmmm...

Would this be the fouteenth or the FIFTEENTH time this has been discussed this week? I've lost count! :eyes:

[screembloodymurder]

52. Could be "integrity and character."

is a euphemism for Democrat. Maybe they found out he voted for Gore.

[EagleEye]

2. It was in today's Post, twice so I figured it was news.

Plus, I am not on DU all the time so may have missed it. It does raise a point though.

[Pepperbelly]

3. why am I not surprised that ...

you think we should "hold off" on Clark since you've expressed nothing but opposition in almost every post?

[EagleEye]

5. Ahhhh, but not every thread.

I actually had high hopes for Clark. I still do. I think it just bothered me how people fawned all over him without knowing him. I still do not think we know him. Have you posted any negative comments on Dean? Kerry? Edwards? Mmmmmmmm, let me think. :)

[Pepperbelly]

No, I have not.

Not a single one.

[Skwmom]

4. If "integrity and character"

is an issue, I'd suggest you take a little harder look at Dean.

[EagleEye]

6. I have looked hard at Dean...and he's kind of cute.

Seriously, I have met him, sat down and talked to him, quesitoned him. He is a good person. I know of few (actually I can't think of any) who question his integrity or character (other than his opponents). Many disagree with him, but I think they will admit you get what you see. Calrk on the other hand has left a path of poeple who question his integrity and character. AGAIN, I do not know him, but I do not think any of us do and there is somehting about him that bothers me (aside from the fact that he leads in the Natl. polls.

[bearfartinthewoods]

13. left a path????

other than shelton,,who else is walking that path?

there are issues with Clark. i personally get my stomach tied in knots over the idea that someone who, just months ago, refused to identify himself as a dem, walking into so freaking much support here.
fer crying in a bucket. we aren't talking about dogcatcher here, this is the most important elected position in the world and people are willing to jump on board a guy who was helping top raise money for thepubs just a year and a half ago.

but...along with caution we should also value accuracy. shelton is one person and we have yet to hear the details. who are these others you refer to?

[EagleEye]

18. Well there is the British Gen. or Maj. that refused to start WWIII for him

[Padraig18]

53. You mean..?

Gen. "Sir" Jackson, the 'Butcher of Derry"? Oh yeah, he's got GREAT credibilty! :eyes:

[EagleEye]

20. There is WIlliam Cohen that fired him (and it had to have Clinton's

blessing. Why CLinton is allegedly pushing him now is strage and troubling.

[Pepperbelly]

65. no Clinton blessing ...

according to Blumenthal in the Clinton Wars. Exactly the opposite. Clinton was misled my Cohen into believing it was the normal rotation out of the position. When Clinton found out the opposite, he was furious.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

47. I have looked hard at Bo Derek....and she's kind of cute."

but I wouldn't vote for her.....

[laura888]

7. Post and NPR regularly cast a negative light...

...on Clark.

Do they know something we don't know?


Their coverage is not disinterested journalism. My radar says they have an interest in NOT getting him elected.

Hence, I might be inclined to support him!

[gulliver]

8. "I've always liked Hugh Shelton ..."

... we did have professional disagreements and for him they became personal disagreements. For me they were professional." -- Clark

Frankly, I'm "holding off" on Shelton. Watching Clark on C-Span at his town hall meeting yesterday, I was more and more convinced not to hold off on Clark.

[10digits]

9. Help me here.

Isn't the WP a part of the whore corp. media? I have read this forum for some time and that's what I have found. Was there a change in management?

[laura888]

10. yes - affirmative on that

WP is definitely part of the group you mentioned.

[EagleEye]

12. Perhaps, but you miss the point. Shelton quesitoned ...

...oh never mind.

[spooky3]

16. When Katharine Graham was alive it was respectable

It had a grand tradition, including Woodward (a repug) and Bernstein, who--with the Post's backing--refused to be intimidated during the Nixon era. The paper worked hard to compete with the New York Times to try to be what it considered the best newspaper in the nation. It still has some good investigative reporters. But the Post has taken a hawkish view of the war (with the exception of EJ Dionne and Tom Toles, the cartoonist) and refuses to reconsider its position in light of the many facts that have been revealed in the last six months, a mindset that also seems to filter into other editorial positions and decisions about what news will be reported and how it will be reported. There is also a disproportionate number of neocon commentators on the editorial pages. Very sad.

[Loki]

11. I have a question for General Shelton.

If you have "issues" with General Clark, how do you feel about the deserter currently occupying the White House? If you have high praise for this incompetent POS, then your opinion doesn't mean jack shit.

[EagleEye]

14. I'll get him on the line.

Did Shelton praise Bush's war? News to me. I think Clinton sort of did too. Which really pissed me off.

[screembloodymurder]

61. Good point.

I question the intelligence, integrity and character of anyone that supports Bush.

[EagleEye]

15. Wow, defending a post is hard work. You guys/gals are good.

[Pepperbelly]

17. btw..

have you come up with any posts where I bashed the other candidates?

[EagleEye]

23. Not yet, but I can't type that fast. :)

[Pepperbelly]

26. to save you some time ...

you will find none because it is not something I do.

Ever.

[EagleEye]

28. Cool

Then I'll stop looking

[spooky3]

21. Rather than vague comments about "integrity", is there anything

specific that has been described by Shelton or anyone else?

[EagleEye]

24. See above posts re: Cohen and British Maj.

[Ruby Newsbee]

19. New Democrat

Quote from Clark, "I'm a new Democrat and you know what? I'm going to bring a lot of other new Democrats into this party."

This is what he's referring to as a "New Democrat". And his agenda is to bring in more to strengthen the DLC. http://www.ndol.org/index.cfm

[DemocratSinceBirth]

57. If Being

pro medical marijuana, pro Fairness Doctrine, pro Pentagon cuts makes one a new Democrat we need a hell of a lot more new Democrats...

[bearfartinthewoods]

67. pro medical marijuana..details??? n/t

[Ruby Newsbee]

70. lol

I'd like to see evidence of that myself!

[SaintLouisBlues]

90. Said so at Friday's town hall meeting in N.H.

Was asked if his administration would be disregarding state law
and busting users as Ashcroft is doing in California.

His answer was an unequivical "No"

He did not come out in favor of any national medicare marijuana law, and I believe his position is to leave that up to the states.

[Pepperbelly]

22. another btw ...

Since Shelton is on active duty and has completely abandoned the military tradition of staying out of civilian poilitics, do you think it possible that he got permission from his immediate superior, Scummy, before making public pronouncements re: the political race?

Or do you think this 4-star, CJS is independtly sub-contracting?

[EagleEye]

27. You are questioning Shelton's Dem. Credentials?

That takes balls. Any support?

[Pepperbelly]

29. what Democratic credentials?

You have said this on several threads and have thus far not responded to any questions regarding the source of this peculiar claim.

[EagleEye]

30. He was Head of Joint Cheifs under Clinton

Larry J. Sabato:
Yes, some of this may be pure jealousy, but when one hears General Hugh Shelton, a mild-mannered individual who served Democratic Presidnt Clinton well, question Clark's basic character and integrity, it makes any thoughtful person sit up and take notice.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A59903-2003Sep24.html

[Pepperbelly]

31. that's not a Democratic party credential ...

he was a General serving under the civilian CIC. :eyes:

Generals don't get to select their supervisors nor do career soldiers generally (no pun intended) turn down a chance to be CJCS.

I think that if you cannot come up with something more substantial than that, you should quit making the allegation because what you have produced thusfar does not support it.

[EagleEye]

35. Well, if I can't prove he is a Dem. you also cannot prove he is folowing

Buhie's orders in making this statement re: Clark. SO there. (I love being childish).

[Pepperbelly]

39. I didn't so assert ...

I merely noted the looooong tradition of staying out of politics for the military and his sudden plunging directly into the fray with inflammatory remarks that he refused to substantiate.

Do you think he did it sans permission?

[EagleEye]

43. I don't know, an neither do you. That's the point.

In one breath you say you are not making the assertion then you use a question to make the assertion again. You are good.

[Pepperbelly]

46. the point is ...

that Shelton has no Democratic credentials and his interjection of himself in the political process is unique in our history.

[EagleEye]

50. Didn't you just mention McAurthur?

[Pepperbelly]

51. yes, and he was FIRED for it.

Do you have a point here or did I miss Scummy firing Shelton for attempting to interfere in the civilian political process?

[gulliver]

58. Got the link on Shelton being a Dem yet?

You have now been asked for a link many times. You stated unequivocally that Shelton was a Democrat. Sadly for your reputation, it looks like you have no proof.

[EagleEye]

64. Sadly for my reputation? You saw the proof I had.

If that is not enough then so be it. But it hardly impacts my reputation. You may need to get out more.

[gulliver]

73. Don't get all self-righteous.

If you can't admit that you were wrong to say Shelton was a Dem, I'd say you are "honesty challenged."

Shelton did not say who he would vote for. He just said it would not be Clark. And in the only quotes I am able to find (all over Google), Shelton specifically says that he isn't saying he is either Republican or Democrat.

So where's your evidence? This is about the umpteenth time you've been asked for it.

If your response is (as above) that I "may need to get out more," then I guess we know you don't have either proof or the integrity to admit you were wrong.

[boxster]

32. I think it's not only possible that he got permission,

I think it's very possible he was asked/told/ordered by the administration to speak out against Clark.

His negative comments were made right in the middle of the early firestorm of negative publicity surrounding Clark and fit in pretty well with what seems to be the BushCo plan to discredit him.

[Pepperbelly]

34. BINGO!

I love it when someone sees my point because I rarely express them with the clarity that they deserve.

:D

[EagleEye]

40. Bingo?

Hey, you are the one that demands proof. Hand it over. Where's the beef?

[Pepperbelly]

44. I spent a long time in the miltary and ...

those guys LIVE by staying out of politics.

Your problem here is that you are trying to defend the indefensible. That is why you keep having to try to change the subject and bring up irrelevant issues to the post you originally made.

Tell me, EagleEye ... when have you EVER seen a General on active duty attempt to intervene in the political process?

We saw Doug McArthur attempt it and he got his ass fired. So, do you have any examples that it ever happened before?

[EagleEye]

48. So you ARE making the assertion.

And we are still talking about Shelton and Clark, how is that off topic?

[Pepperbelly]

upthread I saw the kitchen sink flying in and ...

no, I have never seen a General do this before so I am very suspicious.

[EagleEye]

68. I have never heard anyone question Shelton's motives or integrity.

He was in the spotlight a long time under CLinton.

[Pepperbelly]

75. Now you have ...

Why did he abandon the long held military tradition of staying out of political races?

[EagleEye]

84. Touche'

Now I have. I don't know why he did it. I suspect he was asked. I also do not know if other generals have done this.

[EagleEye]

38. Proof???????

[jumptheshadow]

33. Nice point

Shelton is on active duty...hmmm...and the comments about "character and integrity" certainly echo the Republican diatribes against Clinton. Like any intelligent person, I'll wait for the inevitable follow-ups, but for now I'm wondering if the words were chosen to make an association with Clinton.

[Pepperbelly]

36. yup ... nt

[EagleEye]

41. You are way too smart for your own good.

He could have just been saying what he believed.

[maha]

25. You should hold off on everybody.

It's WAY to early to commit to a ticket. Any one of the candidates could implode in the next few months. Stuff happens to the best of 'em. I have seen this many times with my old tired eyes. Anybody who thinks we have to commit to a ticket NOW must be either cognitively challenged or under the age of 12.

On the other hand, the story of why Clark was called home early has been written about to death, and Shelton is out to lunch.

[boxster]

37. I think you might be forgetting something...

Some people want to be able to commit to a ticket early so that they can get involved in their local offices and actively campaign for them.

There are a lot of very politically-active people on this board, and a lot of them are involved in their candidates' local campaigns. That would obviously require that they commit to one candidate quite early.

[maha]

55. That's fine, to a point.

I think working for a candidate is grand, and if there's one out there that makes your heart go pitty-pat, by all means, work for him/her. But never forget that stuff happens and that the eventual nominee might be one of the other guys.

That's one reason I get very frosted with DUers who put down Their Guy's competition within the Party.

[boxster]

101. Exactly.

I guess one thing is certain - if someone is working for a campaign, he/she certainly isn't going to change his/her mind about their candidate. The problem I have is that hardcore supporters are acting like their candidate is the only possible legitimate one, and all of the others are then bashed vehemently.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

42. I think the genesis

of the Clark-Shelton dispute can be found in their approachs to the Bosnia/Kosovo conflict... Clark wanted a more aggressive approach and lobbied the powers that be through the press.... This pissed Shelton off big time....

Who cares what Shelton thinks?


And, Eagle Eyes, why don't you just post 1,000 times "I Hate General Clark"... The catharsis will be good for you....

[EagleEye]

45. I don't hate him.

I never said I hate him. Never even implied it. I wanted him to be Dean's VP. But even that I think is premature at this point. We need more info on and from the guy.

[Pepperbelly]

49. so why do you keep posting ...

and attempting to defend things like this?

[EagleEye]

56. I am defending the point that we do not know him and some have

real questions about him. What is wrong with that? People raise questions about my candidate, Dean, all the time. That's cool. But eventually we cannot give Clark a pass. We are going to have to see whats behind the shiny medals.

[Pepperbelly]

62. so in sinking to innuendo and

political smear, guilt by association, and right wing sources (not here but in many, many other threads), you are merely serving democracy?

Come on ... I haven't attacked your character but the sanctimony in that is truly ... bizarre.

Rather than posting smear jobs (it is clear to me at this point that Shelton is trying to help his boss), watch Clark's NH townhall meeting with an open mind and see what we see.

[EagleEye]

71. Wait, how did Shelton or the Post become Right wing sources?

And it is not innuendo. I am relaying what Shelton said and the Post reported. How is that innuendo?

[Pepperbelly]

72. snap out of it ...

Did I not clearly state in my post that these were not right wing sources? Note, I did not edit anything away. It was there parenthetically in my post.

Now, are you ignoring this purposefully or was it an accident?

[EagleEye]

76. Are you saying I relied on right wing sources elsewhere?

Where? This is my fist post. And if I miss understood you, sorry.

[Pepperbelly]

77. re-read ...

the post.

[EagleEye]

80. "and right wing sources (not here but in many, many other threads), "

What am I missing?

[Pepperbelly]

88. I have seen ...

on Clark bashing threads newsmax, drudge, wsj ed online, rush limbaugh, etc.

How clearer can I be?

[EagleEye]

78. I listened to his Announcement wiht an open mind and wasn't impressed.

I will listen some more. But the same can be said of you with Dean. Did you hear his Boston speech, his CA Dem conention speech? His numerous NH town hall speecehes? Can you listen with an open mind to him?

[Pepperbelly]

83. you are mistaking ...

me for some sort of enemy. Dean might well be my second choice in the field. I have no problems with Dean. I just think Wesley's vision for America is compelling.

[EagleEye]

85. Hopefully you are right.

I hope when we learn more about him he is an asset to this party.

[Pepperbelly]

91. he already IS an asset ...

and if you cannot look at the way the righties' heads are spinning as they vomit bile at him and reach that conclusion as well, I don't know what else to say. They hate his guts and it isn't because he agrees with them. They hate his guts because they see him not only getting elected, but actually calling them on their decade-long bullshit spew and reversing their anti-America policies.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

54. Why Destroy A Man By Innuendo And Slander....

NT

[EagleEye]

59. I am not questioning his integrity but others are and we cannot just

ignore it.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

60. None of us are perfect.....

I am sure I can find folks to say bad things about all the candidates....

[maha]

63. Don't ignore it

but why SPREAD IT?????

[EagleEye]

66. It was in the Post Twice today

Aren't we suppposed to discuss such things here?

[maha]

69. It's the way you're doin' it

You should at least add a disclaimer so that people know you're not a Shrubbie subversive.

[EagleEye]

74. Sorry. This is my first post.

I am not a shrubbie subversive. I marched against the war. I wrote scathing articles to my congressman (Pete Sessions) and Senators, and news paper denouncing Bush's war, tax cuts, environmental policies. I live in Texas and caused many stirs at dinner tables when I question Bush's policies. When I longed for a voice in the Dem party Dean was there. He has a history, and some bagage, but I know where he stands. ANd he a a fire and conviciotn and eloquence that we sorely need. With Clark, I am concerned about how fellow Dems are jumping on his bandwagon without knowing him AND he is a brand new Dem. That bothers me.

[maha]

79. OK.

Please note that there are people on DU who are working real hard at knocking off Dem candidates they don't like. Without the disclaimer, people will assume you are one of them.

[EagleEye]

81. Thanks

[carpetbagger]

98. Shelton behaved improperly in this one.

As Clark's superior, he took an action that at the time he deemed neutral (the excuse was that regulations mandated Ralston get into the position and quickly, and that's the story that Clinton's staff says was the truth), but now he's publically levelling unspecified allegations against his subordinate.

Integrity and character issues would say that you don't use innuendo and formless accusations to attack someone. That goes double if people expect that you have information and knowledge about the person, and triple if you're their supervisor.

Integrity and character? Sounds McCartyist to me.

[rasputin1952]

89. My point, exactly...

Where is the substance in any of this?

I could easily say the 'character' issues led me to a decision...

So what? Is my character any better than anyone else's? This is a professional dispute between two career military men, in which we have little detail, and no facts.

Character asassination by innuendo is about as low as one can get.

Heck.....look at all that bush has done, and there is factual backup for all of it...yet there are minor squabbles here over obscure references to what amounts to nothing of substance.

As far as the Brit MG that refused to 'start WWIII', under NATO treaty rules, he was not obligated to follow that order in the first place. He was also relieved of duty. BTW: the airstrip was occupied, and if WWIII began, I must have missed it.

[union_maid]

82. He's got to say more than that

If he wants to back up what he's saying with specifics, then it's on the table and can be discussed. Until then it's just character assassination.

[EagleEye]

86. What did I say that was character Assassination?

I reported a story from the Post.

[union_maid]

102. Sorry, I meant Shelton, not you

I was out for a while and didn't see that follow up to my post EagleEye. I mean that what General Shelton is doing is character assasination if he doesn't back up that statement with something that be discussed.

[EagleEye]

87. Damn, you people are tough. I like that.

But I have to run. See you next time.

[cmd]

92. You people -- that's the second time

Be careful when you use that phrase, you distance yourself from us.

[TacticalPeek]

93. First, Shelton is retired, actually.

So being, why refuse to reveal whether he is D or R? To foreswear partisan political identification, and then take an unsupported cheap shot at a candidate makes me question Shelton's integrity and character.

Anybody think Shelton voted for Gore? For Clinton? Its anybody's guess since he's trying for the "military above the fray" high ground. But I sure guess he's repug. Why not be a man, Hugh, and say "I am proud to be a Republican and support our AWOL President, and I will vote against Clark." Guess that lacks the proper ring of sanctimony, eh?

His pitch was finely parsed on this point, and makes me wonder if he might have had a little skull session with operatives to get the flavor just right.

I look forward to an unbroken string of "No comment"'s from brave Hugh over the next several days and weeks. Political war is hell, ain't it, Hugh.

[Pepperbelly]

94. I didn't realize Shelton was retired ...

so that negates my remarks about him talking out of school. My apologies to those with whom I clashed over the issue of active military interjecting into politics.

[TacticalPeek]

96. I should have phrased that "retired for now".

We have already seen that aWol must sometimes turn to the retired roster to find a pawn to do his bidding, after the active duty guys politely laugh in his face.

Shelton could be a cadidate for more brown-nosing. But something tells me Marine General Zinni (ret) won't be in that pool. There are a couple of threads here lately showing Zinni ripping the neoConjobs a new one.

I think this is the most anti-military malAdministration in our country's history.

:grr:

[rasputin1952]

103. When USMC Gen Smedley Butler retired...

he made the statement that he had done not only his country's duty. But that duty was marred by going to war for corporate interests, and it cost American lives.

Butler, one of few who earned the MOH twice, was the pre-emptive Marine of the time...but he also saw the handwriting on the wall; just as Eisenhower stated in 1960.

[leetrisck]

95. Nervous about Clark but not

about General Shelton. How shall we pick our generals?

[bobthedrummer]

97. Rove sent Clark.

Beware Democrats everywhere there are deep moles in your Party.

[Pepperbelly]

99. blah-blah-blah

I've been a Democrat since 1953 and active since 1968. And now I might be a mole.

That's a pretty fucking deep mole, bob.

[TacticalPeek]

100. Do you chat up KKKarl often?

Yecch! How creepy.

:)