Abortion Distortions?

[Fountain79]

http://www.factcheck.org/article336.html


As President Bush considers exactly whom to nominate to succeed Justice Sandra Day O'Connor on the Supreme Court, Senators Barbara Boxer and Rick Santorum both have distorted some facts about the effect of Roe v. Wade.

[LaurenG]

1. Well I'm no expert

but it seems to me 1000's of women would die. Penicillin can't stop hemorrhages and since it would be illegal who would want to go to the ER? I wonder about that website sometimes. Who knows though.

[Fountain79]

2. for the most part...

The website seems relatively even-handed. Check out the analysis of the Iraqi War situation.

Regarding the article...I think it is important to approach important issues with a degree of level-headedness and not hysteria. Additionally it pokes holes on the pro-life side's argument as well.

[LaurenG]

6. I agree with you about levelheadedness

I just don't think they can say with any certainty what the numbers would be. It's not based on fact it's based on an educated guess. If abortion were against the law there will still be many thousands of abortions performed. I cannot speak for many things they say I have no way to know. My gut says they are underestimating. Again who can say for sure. :shrug:

[IADEMO2004]

3. My step-fathers mother died in the 30s'

Left 3 kids under 12. They both worked hard in bad times but remained poor. Keep abortion legal safe and rare.

[Iris]

13. Wish someone would start an ad campaign

with pictures of these women in black and white with their stories underneath.

[XemaSab]

4. Society has changed so much

that nobody knows what the effects of a repeal would be.

There's widespread availability of birth control, but there's also a culture of promiscuous sex that did not exist in 1973.

[Iris]

14. And what happens if the pill & IUD outlawed as well?

That's what the religous zealots want.

[XemaSab]

16. Lots of unwanted babies

and a permenant, unwashed, ignorant, disposable cheap labor force?

[Iris]

17. don't forget - more canon fodder for the oil wars.

[XemaSab]

19. that too

I have honestly wondered if the point of pop culture is to erode family and morality and create such an underclass, particularly on hip-hop stations but also, say, britney spears and her ilk.

[Iris]

20. Interesting theory.

And one I've toyed with myself. An ignorant, blindly patriotic and superstitiously religious underclass (serfs) that those to the manor born can toy with at will.

[DanCa]

5. Another reason why I cant be pro life

It not just abortion its the way these people operate. Does operation rescue still try to glue clinic doors shur?

[Fountain79]

7. ?

What reason did you find here? I didn't get this from a pro-life website.

[DanCa]

9. Oh sorry

I am watching c span on the hearring right now so I am distracted. I mean the way these people distort facts like saying abortions lead to breast cancer. A study which never was proven and stuff like that. My first post was my bad. My appologies. No harm no foul right? I can never be a group that twists and distorts facts to meet its political agenda.

[Fountain79]

11. No problem....

[noiretextatique]

23. this is the disinformation i was talking about in my post

it's put forth by disingenious groups, e.g., "feminists for life." they are an advertising unit of the anti-choice movement, targetting women in college. the have a campaign, "women deserve better," to disseminate their anti-choice claims, e.g., the breast cancer meme.
"women deserve better,' is their trademarked meme...a meme that has little substance, but lots of emotional appeal.
i have been seaching, in vain, for any actual initiatives to help women get what they claim we deserve, however, all i could find on their website were ads for members to download and pass around on college campuses.
indeed, women do deserve better :eyes:

[noiretextatique]

8. so, less women will probably die than boxer claimed

if roe vs. wade is overturned. maybe under 1,000/year instead of 5,000/year.
level-headed...ok.

[Fountain79]

10. You would have to agree.....

It doesn't do the pro-choice argument any good to use a statistic that is over 70 years old.

[noiretextatique]

12. no, you are right about that, however

this debate has little to do with reason or logic...disinformation appeals to emotion. the classic example is the hysteria about "partial birth abortion," a term created by the anti-choice movement. i don't think facts or logic or level-headness will be enough to combat the disinfomation, but you are right: the pro-choice movement should not adopt the tactics of the other side, and for the most, i don't think it has, boxer's statistic notwithstanding.
imho, the only thing that will save roe vs. wade is that abortion posturing raises a lot of money for the republican party and its candidates.

[Fountain79]

21. Just to play devils advocate....

The pro-choice side can also be quite emotional when arguing its case as well.(I really don't claim either side) If I was to argue the morality of abortion for example I would most likely be met with heart wrenching stories of women and what they had to go through.

[noiretextatique]

24. well, that's the truth, isn't it?

those heart-wrenching stories, i mean. they are what women actually go through vs. the fantasies put forth by the anti-choice side, who routinely accuse women of making cavalier decisions about abortion, as if it is akin to getting one's nails done. that's a part of the disinformation campaign...the notion that women are too stupid, selfish, unconcerned, etc., to make this decision for themselves.
hearing the stories of actual women (truth) may appeal to emotions, but disinformation appeals to emotions and distorts the truth...that's the plan, of course.

someone posed a question here yesterday about why the late-term abortion procedure that some are so up in arms about couldn't be replaced by c-sections, a query from one of his rw friends.
i won't bore you with the details provided, suffice it to say, the question wasn't logical, or rational or level-headed to begin with...it was based on disinformation of the kind i mention above.
and that's far too often what we're up against.

[Fountain79]

26. true...

Just like a pro-life group might show a sonogram of what a baby looks like up to the third trimester, which I have seen them do.

[noiretextatique]

28. sure...but here's what they leave out of that emotional appeal

3rd trimester terminations, what they call "partial birth abortions"
are very rare, and generally done to save the life of the mother.
that detail tends to get lost in their appeal to emotions. further proof they don't give a shit about women lives.

[Fountain79]

30. whoops

I meant to say that this was in the first trimester.

[noiretextatique]

31. ok...that's easier

the fetus isn't viable outside the womb in the first trimester, and of course, if someone feels so moved by sonograms, she has every right NOT to have an abortion. that's the great thing about CHOICE.

[Iris]

15. what about the 1000s of little deaths as young women watch their futures,

hopes, goals and dreams go down the toilet?

[noiretextatique]

18. knowing your government considers you too stupid

to make your own decisions...about your body :grr:

[Fountain79]

22. In all fairness....

The government has already decided that I am not smart enough to smoke pot and/or drive with a certain level of alchol in my blood. Technically the government already has some dominion of over what we can and can not do with our bodies.

[noiretextatique]

25. forced pregnancy is gender discrimination

since men can't have children. the other laws you mention apply to both genders. perhaps a better comparision would be the draft.

[Fountain79]

27. true

But men can be forced to pay child support even in cases when the sex was not consentual on the mans part.

[noiretextatique]

29. give me an example

please. an actual case where a man was forced to pay child support when he was forced to participate in non-consensual sex.

[Fountain79]

32. some examples

Forced to pay child support when it wasn't his child...

http://www.seacoastonline.com/news/special/4_24special.htm


Forced to pay when he was passed out.....

http://www.nas.com/c4m/rape_case2.html


Forced to pay in the case of statuatory rape....

http://www.nas.com/c4m/rape_case.html

[noiretextatique]

33. well...

1) the court ruling was in favor of the man, correct? that the state didn't follow the ruling is unfortunate, and i would hope, given the ruling in his favor, that he will be able to recoup the money.
no non-consensual sex involved.

2) was he raped, or...he doesn't remember, since he passed out?
but, since the man *might* have been too drunk (i do question the motives of his witnesses) to give informed consent, and since there was apparently some evidence of the girl's intent previously...
i would tend to favor the man's version of events in this case.

3) now, this is just a CRIME. a minor male should not be ordered to pay child support when he was the victim of statutory rape...period. in fact, she should have been prosecuted, and not given the opportunity to plead.

actually, i am not a big fan of child support laws, only because i've watched so many people struggle so long to collect...little or nothing. as i told my sister: imagine how much you could be making now if you had put all that energy you put into chasing a deadbeat into going to graduate school. at the time, she had the support of my parents for childcare...sad to watch her be so bitter about something she could do nothing about.

thanks...most enlightening.

[kestrel91316]

34. Forced pregnancy is reproductive SLAVERY.