Are the other nine Democratic candidates riding Dean's coattails?

[w4rma]

Are the other nine Democratic presidential candidates riding Dean's coattails in polls against Bush?

Dean has been the most consistant and outspoken critic of the Bush administration of the Democratic candidates. Bush's polling numbers have been dropping ever since Dean begin being taken seriously by the media as a candidate. Unlike the other candidates (not including Clark who has only been in the race for a few days) most or all of Dean's attacks have been either direct or indirect attacks on the Bush administration.

...
When asked which Democratic candidate was doing the best job presenting his or her plans for the country and explaining how those plans differ from President Bush’s, voters say Dean is the candidate doing the best at making his case (13 percent), but a plurality says “none” (19 percent) of the candidates are explaining their positions and 35 percent are unsure.
...
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,98328,00.html

[Toucano]

1. No

"Dean has been the most consistant and outspoken critic of the Bush administration of the Democratic candidates."

I think that distinction goes to Kucinich, actually. He just doesn't get the press because whenever you say his name, someone says "God bless you". :)

All the Democrats need to stop ignoring him.

[w4rma]

2. When you consider the totality of their careers, I think Kucinich has been

the most outspoken critic of the Bush administration. However, I think it's either a tie or Dean is ahead by a hair for this presidential campaign.

Also, if a tree falls in the woods and noone is around to hear it did it make a sound? Dean's campaign has been the campaign with the most people around to hear it.

[JohnKleeb]

12. Well that tree still fell

You cant ignore the fact that Kucinich attacks the wrongs of the adminstration just as well as Dean does and more so on some come on lol Dean isnt gonna tell us Taft-Hartley needs to be repealed, thats no insult on Dean. Yes Dean has been generating the support, I think the poster's point as is mine that Dennis has been attacking and he needs to be respected and acknowledged for it. Most Dean supporters here and I thank you guys to death acknowledge that but the media acts like Kucinich is invisible, and it drives me angry, Wellstone once said politics is about doing well for people hence my support for Kucinich.

[w4rma]

19. I agree with most everything that Kucinich currently supports.

With all due respect, I did acknowledge Kucinich's attacks. I think that Kucinich's effect on this presidential campaign is that he has indirectly affected the policy proposals made by other candidates in a positive way. I also acknowledged Kucinich's invisibility in the press.

[JohnKleeb]

21. I know you did look I damn well realize that Dean attacks

and has gotten more coverage than my candiate Kucinich. You may not hear that tree fall in the woods but it falls, and the media cant ignore it. Thank for acknowledging the invisiblity, it is obvious thats one of the reasons why, the media chooses to ignore him, if the WP had mentioned that Kucinich has a fair plan for Israel-Palestine. I would have seen two letters in praise of him. Its still early imo, according to the polls 1/3 of the people can name a candiate or somethin like that. My point is that tree that falls that you dont hear still falls, and I as a Kucinich supporter am annoyed as anything that the media acts like it didnt happen. I know Dean has raised more money but as Wellstone said thats not what its all about, its about doing well for people hence my support for Kucinich.

[w4rma]

24. I agree fully with your post. (n/t)

[JohnKleeb]

33. Thank you

The fact of the matter is that Dennis is totally ignored by the press why I dont know, he threatens the most their ablity to distort. I think Kucinich made a great stand against the war, his desire for peace echos that of RFK and his people's candiate is much like Wellstone, plus like FDR he doesnt want us to be afraid.

[MuseRider]

28. Then you have to admit

that he is NOT riding on anyone's coattails. I find this offensive and probably most of the other supporters of other candidates do as well.

[w4rma]

30. Explain. I'm not really interested whether I'm insulting some candidate

I'm interested in finding a cause and effect relationship to better analyze and create strategy.

[MuseRider]

41. I am not sure what you are asking.

Personally I think everyone is offended when someone believes they can not stand on their own. I was not offended, if I gave that impression I am sorry but I just don't get this Dean stuff. He is a good candidate but not pulling anyone through this, that is what I don't get. So what did you want? I think maybe the answer from me would be that Bush* is killing himself. I remember feeling alone before I found DU because they were so good at killing anything anti Bush*. I think it was expected that the Dem candidates would speak out against Bush*, I don't think that had as much to do with it as possibly Kennedy did this last week and others who have been pushing away at trying to stop Bush*. Once people heard some dissent they felt free to speak their own minds. I doubt it has anything to do with Dean or any of the others. Is that what you wanted to know?

[JohnKleeb]

44. I wasnt offended either honestly but I do wonder why

Kucinich who fights Bush on the issues just as hard as Dean does and speaks about issues that most of the others dont if not none.

[MuseRider]

49. John

I have begun to believe that DK is being heard loud and clear and that is possibly one of the reasons he does not get the press time. That and the money issue wich still boggles my mind.

Edit because I spelled your name wrong!

[DemDogs]

61. It is about Bush

This is not tough. It is not about Dean, or Kerry, or Gephardt, or Edwards, although I can see you would dearly love it to be about Dean. Any student of Presidential politics will tell you that when there is an incumbent President, it is about the incumbent. Bush's drop is about Bush, which is why an unnamed Democrat has been doing better against him for some time.
Allan Lichtman at American University wrote the seminal book on this subject, Thirteen Keys to the White House. If your purpose is to really find out, read that. If your purpose is to start yet another I-love-Dean thread, well, then do what you are doing.

[w4rma]

62. See my posts #13 and #27 for my response (I'm copying #27 here)

That's my point: People are noticing. Another point is that Dean is explaining to them where to focus their ire.

...
When asked which Democratic candidate was doing the best job presenting his or her plans for the country and explaining how those plans differ from President Bush’s, voters say Dean is the candidate doing the best at making his case (13 percent), but a plurality says “none” (19 percent) of the candidates are explaining their positions and 35 percent are unsure.
...
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,98328,00.html

IMHO, this election will be a referendum on Bush's presidency. IMHO, Dean has done the most of the 10 candidates to get people to notice how bad Bush's presidency has been for America.

[MuseRider]

65. Dean has gotten his message

out because the press is focusing on him. Which message is it today?

[w4rma]

68. Dean Says Jobs Come Before Fixing Budget

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=536&e=2&u=/ap/20030927/ap_on_el_pr/dean_interview
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=135620

[MuseRider]

71. Let me publicly

apologize to you. I was being nasty and snarky, I am personally sick of Dean and really don't care for him much anymore. That being said my last post to you was meant as a dig. I sat here and laughed out loud when I read your response because I am just certain you got it and took the wind right out of my sails. Thank you, I needed that. Peace, may we all fight fairly.

[w4rma]

72. Thanks!

I hope you'll change your mind about Dean in the future though. :)

[Toucano]

31. Even if you didn't know the tree fell

you still felt the wind change when it did.

[JohnKleeb]

37. Yep

[JohnKleeb]

9. wow thanks and I agree completely

[Padraig18]

3. No

[w4rma]

4. Why not?

You disagree that Dean's attacks on Bush have had the most effect on Bush's popularity?

[Renew Deal]

6. I disagree too.

Bush's popularity has nothing to do with Dean. It has to do with Bush. People are noticing that Bush sucks. They are waking up, without a job, and with arsenic in their water. Dean has had an affect, but he is the firthest behind bush in all polls.

[w4rma]

13. Bingo. That's my point: People are noticing.

IMHO, this election will be a referendum on Bush's presidency. IMHO, Dean has done the most of the 10 candidates to get people to notice how bad Bush's presidency has been for America.

[Renew Deal]

17. Then why aren't people flocking to Dean?

Clark is winning all of the latest polls?

[w4rma]

26. IMHO, it's name recognition. Clark is behind in states where

the candidates are better known. The same effect applied to Lieberman, even though Clark's non-negative campaign has a better chance to build on that initial support.

[Renew Deal]

32. You all used to argue that no one knows who Clark is.

Now everyone knows who he is? So doesn't that mean that he will have an even better chance for long coattails?

[w4rma]

42. His supporters know that he's a Democratic retired army general.

His closest supporters have a vague idea of where he stands on many issues, a specific idea of where he stands on a very few issues and no idea where he stands on many other issues. Example: he still lacks an "issues" page for his website. He may or may not be disbanding his grassroots organization. He may or may not be able to stand up to the DLC and win. He may or may not agree with the DLC on most things.

Yes, I'm a DUer and, IMHO, I don't really know who Clark is, yet. I know he'll introduce himself over time, but I don't know him yet and I don't expect others to, yet, either.

Clark is largely an unknown. That's not neccessarily a negative or a positive. It is, however, a fact.

[Pepperbelly]

5. not everything is about Dean ...

I understand that you support your candidate but why try to twist others support of other candidates as all because of Dean?

[w4rma]

8. I'm not talking about Democratic support of other Democratic candidates

I'm talking about Democratic candidates' (including "unamed Democrat") rise in popularity against Bush.

Do you believe that Bush's lower polling numbers against Democrats in general are more a result of Clark's campaign or Dean's campaign?

[Pepperbelly]

10. neither ...

it is a result of Bonehead screwing the pooch at every turn and people becoming more aware of it as the election draws nearer.

That's my guess anyway.

[w4rma]

14. Who has made people more aware of "it"? (n/t)

[Pepperbelly]

18. Time is

what made them aware. They are only now starting to pay attention. It's like this in every election cycle. There is no causality with Dean or Clark or Sharpton or anyone. The economy is sucking, security is sucking, repression is becoming widespread and Bonehead fiddles while Rome burns.

[w4rma]

20. They didn't notice in 2002. They had 2 years to notice.

What's changed in the past year to make them notice? What's changed in the past few months to change the general tone of the debate against Bush?

[Pepperbelly]

29. when I was in the navy ...

I once rode out a typhoon at sea aboard the USS Peoria, LST 1183. An LST is flat-bottomed so it can drive right up on a beach and discharge equipment, tanks, and troops. Flat-bottomed ships wallow in the water rather than cut. They rock fore and aft and port and starboard. Sometimes, during the typhoon, with winds in excess of 110 knots and 35-40 ft seas, she would lean so far over to the side that she would groan at her joints. Always though, after staying on her side for what seemed like forever, she'd shudder and right herself before tipping in the other direction.

People kept waiting for this ship to right itself and it has yet to do so. That is the difference. People are beginning to wonder if the fucking thing might just capsize. And I never once had anyone tell me that it was time for the ship to right itself when I hadn't yet figured it out for myself.

[w4rma]

36. You're essentially saying that for some reason in 2002, folks

didn't feel that the U.S. was on the verge of "capsizing". However, now in 2003, folks in the U.S. do feel that the U.S. is on the verge of "capsizing" unless people move from the right-sight of the spectrum to the left side of the spectrum.

Note that your analogy doesn't apply to the untrained. You were in the navy and were trained to do what was neccessary to keep your ship afloat. Not all U.S. citizens are trained to do what is neccessary to keep the U.S. afloat, they have yet to be trained.

[Pepperbelly]

39. that's where you're wrong ...

if the bitch had gone over, it would've been every man for himself!

:D

on edit: in all seriousness, in 02, people kept expecting it to right itself at any time. And it still hasn't. That is when folk start noticing.

[w4rma]

47. Back to my trained vs. untrained point

More people are noticing that the boat is in more danger of capsizing. But, just because you've noticed that there is a problem doesn't mean you'll know what to do.

Examples: Many people *still* blame the problems on the Democratic Party. They will try to correct the boat by running starboard instead of port. The DLC tells folks to run to move inbetween the folks who are far starboard and in the middle of the boat.

[Pepperbelly]

51. so we should ...

all give thanks to Howard when we say our blessings?

Come on, dude or dudette.

Lighten up.

Things are looking up. Enjoy it because we cannot ever come up with a conclusive answer as to the shys and wherefores.

[w4rma]

53. We should elect Dean as President of the United States of America (n/t)

[Pepperbelly]

54. only IF he gets the nomination!

:D

[w4rma]

58. I totally agree.

:D

[bearfartinthewoods]

7. if so, so what?

there are more important issues in this primary than who complains about bush the most. think about it. what good will this 'talent' do the next prez of USA?

[w4rma]

11. If Dean lost his platform to attack Bush from, would Bush's numbers

rise again? Would Bush's numbers drop as fast? Would they then drop too slowly to defeat Bush in 2004? Do other candidates have coattails as long as Dean's for Democratic Congressfolk to ride into office on?

[Renew Deal]

16. Dean has no Congress coatails.

His poll number show that he has the hardest fight against Bush. Clark has an easier time and is even beating Bush in some cases. Dean would be a harder nastier fight for us. He won't have any coat tails because of that. Clark will open it up much more. He could really open up a nice lead over Bush. Repuke leaners will have less trouble with Clark than they will with Dean. Men are in Clarks camp. Women like Clark. Dean doesn't poll as well with any of these groups except one poll where Dean did better with women. But that was before he was running.

[w4rma]

22. You're dead wrong on that.

Dean's coattails may be the longest, even though he trails Gen. Clark. Dean's coattails may be the longest because he may be the candidate with the most ability to permanenty create new Democrats. Dean creates appeal for the Democratic Party in general.

[Renew Deal]

35. Dean supporters have an inferiority complex.

Here it is again:

"Dean's coattails may be the longest,"

I keep seeing something like this. He is the cutest, he also supports this, he also supports that.

[w4rma]

38. Clark supporters have an inferiority complex.

Here it is again:

"Clark's coattails may be the longest,"

I keep seeing something like this. He is the cutest, he also supports this, he also supports that.

This is just as ridiculous sounding when I say it as when you say it. So, let's not say it.

[Renew Deal]

40. It is more ridiculouser when you say it.

:evilgrin:

[blm]

46. Perot voters were the new "disaffected voters" in 92.

.

[bearfartinthewoods]

34. Dean isn't the only one criticizing bush ten voices

ten voices is what is doing the job.

and what Dean coatails are you fantacizing? hehahohahaha.

[w4rma]

45. The coattails that are helping the Democratic Party as a whole

:) The point of this thread.

[bearfartinthewoods]

48. those coatails are a figment of the dean's camp's immagination

imho.

i can't find a Dean supporter around here with a fine toothed comb.

[w4rma]

52. Try these combs

http://dean2004.meetup.com/
http://www.deanlink.com/

[Eloriel]

15. This "talent,"

which is the ability and willingness to see the truth and speak the truth, even against a supposedly popular president, even against a supposedly popular war, will serve Dean well as President. Very well indeed.

It's a shame it has to be spelled out for you.

Eloriel

[hooligan]

25. Well said Eloriel

Dean (and Kucinich) were speaking out against Bush when others were afraid to. It's not surprising that once this approach sent him ahead of the other candidates, they began to adopt this strategy themselves. True, Bush is losing popularity because his policies are failing, but I think critics are finally free to speak out and this is also a contributing factor.

[bearfartinthewoods]

50. that 'talent' can also be viewed as him taking the only shot he had

eom

[LWolf]

23. No.

Polls against * reflect people's opinion about his performance as president, not what Dean or any other candidate has to say.

Naturally, if people are unhappy with *, they like hearing a candidate criticize him. Dean is not the most consistent or outspoken critic of GWB Inc. among the candidates. As some others have pointed out, Dennis Kucinich has earned that distinction. Dean just consistently gets more press.

That doesn't mean I don't appreciate Dean's efforts; I do. And every other dem who publicly points out the multiple disasters Bush has brought about. It all helps us achieve the primary goal; eviction of Bush Inc. from washington.

But no one is "riding on his coattails." And some have gone before him.

[w4rma]

27. That's my point: People are noticing.

Another point is that Dean is explaining to them where to focus their ire.

...
When asked which Democratic candidate was doing the best job presenting his or her plans for the country and explaining how those plans differ from President Bush’s, voters say Dean is the candidate doing the best at making his case (13 percent), but a plurality says “none” (19 percent) of the candidates are explaining their positions and 35 percent are unsure.
...
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,98328,00.html

IMHO, this election will be a referendum on Bush's presidency. IMHO, Dean has done the most of the 10 candidates to get people to notice how bad Bush's presidency has been for America.

[LWolf]

55. I agree that this election is a referendum on Bush's presidency.

I think all 10...er, at least 8 of them, maybe 9, realize this and have been going after him.

I disagree about the "coattails" thing. Because Dean gets more media than some doesn't mean they are riding his coattails. Getting more press means that more hear what Dean has to say, which will be reflected in the polls, and which means that more people are hearing his remarks about *. It doesn't mean any of the other 9 are "riding coattails."

[w4rma]

57. What is your explanation of the mechanism for "riding coattails"? (n/t)

[LWolf]

67. Mechanism?

I'll just define it. To me, someone who is "riding coattails" is following someone else, benefitting from someone who blazed a trail and did the work first.

In that respect, I don't believe that any of the 10, with the possible exception of Clark (only because of his late decision), followed Dean's lead in deciding to run in the primary. And I don't believe any of them decided that they didn't like the bush administration, or that they ought to criticize it because they heard Dean do so and all of a sudden figured out that people wanted to hear it.

[w4rma]

70. "in deciding to run in the primary", no

in deciding how they'd run their primary campaigns, yes.
in deciding the message they'd communitcate to voters, yes.

Is Dean "someone who blazed a trail and did the work first"? Big time and obvious, yes.

IMHO

[LWolf]

78. my opinion is different, w4irma,

but I respect your explanation of yours. And I appreciate you voicing it as an opinion. I hope Dean does well. Obviously, I hope DK does better! ;-)

And we each have our reasons. I'll be there to support Dean with you if he wins; I hope you'll do the same with me if DK makes it.

:toast:

[blm]

43. The corporate media just gave him the most attention

when Dean started attacking the other Dem candidates first. The press ignored the substantive critiques of Bush by Gore and Kerry throughout 2002.

Let's see what Joe Conason said in August 2002:

Kerry Shows Courage In Challenging Bush
Thursday, August 8, 2002 By: Joe Conason

New York Observer

New York -- The most rousing speech at the Democratic Leadership Council's New York conference--according to both journalistic consensus and the applause meter--was given by Hillary Clinton, who definitely isn't running for President. Her poise and passion on the stump have grown exponentially since her Senate campaign, and she blew the doors off the Hilton ballroom.

But it was John Kerry who delivered the most interesting, substantive and challenging message. His subject was George W. Bush's shortcomings as a world leader.

The New York Times reported that Mr. Kerry "offered a long attack on Mr. Bush's foreign policy," although the paper gave short shrift to the details in the Senator''s speech. What he began to articulate was a Democratic critique of this administration''s blunt and myopic unilateralism, and a vision that restores international alliances to the center of American diplomacy.

He agrees with the objective of removing Saddam Hussein, but objected to the vague plans for what will replace the Iraqi dictatorship. He called the latest arms treaty with Russia a "cosmetic" one that inadequately safeguards decommissioned weapons. He denounced the "Cold War" approach to North Korea that has undone the progress achieved by the Clinton administration. He expressed scorn for the administration''s disengagement from the Middle East crisis before Sept. 11.


>>>>>>>

He is, however, no naïïve internationalist who abhors military force. As he has done before, Mr. Kerry wondered aloud why the President didn't muster sufficient firepower in Afghanistan to destroy Al Qaeda''s army when the chance arose at Tora Bora.

And he sought to connect the trouble America encounters abroad to the oil-dominated energy policy of this oilmen's government. "We must search for clean, renewable resources," he said, "not just because it is in the interests of our environment, but because it is a demand of national security." Liberating the nation from oil "can liberate our foreign policy and empower the United States to tell the truth throughout the Middle East."

Mr. Kerry is staking out a politically perilous position at a time when conventional wisdom declares foreign and military issues to be the exclusive province of the President. As a Senator from Massachusetts--whose last Presidential nominee suffered humiliating defeat by a candidate named Bush--he risks highlighting negative assumptions about his own viability on a national ticket.
 
According to the scientific measurements made by political consultants, Mr. Kerry''s chosen path is marked "dead end." The safer domestic route is crowded with competitors who talk only about corporate responsibility, prescription drugs and Social Security. The boldest among them now criticize the lopsided tax cut that shouldn't have passed last year.

>>>>


There is, however, at least one benefit for Mr. Kerry in speaking out on those faraway places and problems. While his rivals sound as if they''re campaigning for the offices they already occupy, he sounds as if he is running for President.

In a sense, Mr. Kerry enjoys an unfair advantage that mitigates the burden of his home state. He''s a decorated Vietnam veteran whose Navy service may help shield him from attacks on his patriotism. Throughout his years in the Senate, that credential has allowed him to investigate and criticize disturbing excesses of American policy abroad, as he did when he probed U.S. aid to the contra gangsters in Nicaragua. (That rather lonely crusade made him a target of the notorious Arkansas Project, funded by Republican billionaire Richard Mellon Scaife to bring down President Clinton.)

Whether Mr. Kerry can engage the electorate in a discussion of America''s global responsibilities is far from certain. His own dispassionate style may hinder him. Yet he deserves great credit for reclaiming international leadership for his party when others cannot or will not.

[w4rma]

56. No, blm, this is why Dean got the corporate media's attention

Final 2nd Quarter People-Powered Howard Report: $7.6 Million Raised
Howard Dean today announced that 73,226 Americans joined together to raise over $7.6 million for the Dean for America campaign in the second filing quarter which ended on June 30. A total of 83,041 individuals have contributed to the campaign overall.

"This campaign is about bringing people back into a political process that for too long has been dominated by Washington insiders out of touch with real Americans,” said Dean. “Behind each of these contributions are the stories of Americans who want to take their country back, and they are making a huge difference."

Fundraising Facts:

Of the 83,041 donors overall, only 891 have maxed out, enabling over 82,000 of them to continue to contribute funds to the campaign in the future.
The average donation to the campaign was $88.11, demonstrating that Americans are participating directly in their democracy, giving what they can to reclaim their government.
Over 62,000 donors gave for the first time to Dean for America this quarter, demonstrating the momentum and growth of the campaign.
…
http://blog.deanforamerica.com/archives/000691.html

Dean Raises $7.5 Million in Second Quarter (rough report)
In the second quarter ending yesterday, 59,000 Americans donated an average of $112 to help boost Governor Howard Dean to the top of the second quarter fundraisers with a total of $7.5 million raised.

Unlike the small, exclusive multi-million dollar fundraisers held in major cities by President Bush over the last week, the Dean campaign saw its numbers surge based on small donations over the Internet—with nearly $3 million raised online in the last week alone. In the second quarter, 45,030 people donated online a total of 51,474 times. The average donation online was $74.14.

“When we said last week during the governor’s announcement that ‘You have the power,’ we had no idea just how much power our supporters had,” said Campaign Manager Joe Trippi. “They are people participating directly in their democracy, and doing whatever they can to help us take our country back—giving $20, $30, or $50. This is People-Powered Howard.”

Second quarter fundraising by the numbers:

Total raised in second quarter: $7,500,000 Total donors (2003 to date): 70,000
Average contribution: $112

First time donors in second quarter: 48,000

Levels of Internet Giving:
Less than $50: 18,422
$50 -- 99: 11,579
$100 -- $249: 11,436
$250 -- $499: 2,379
$500 -- $1,000: 368
$1,000 and up: 129
…
http://blog.deanforamerica.com/archives/000584.html

Howard Dean's trick by Mark Shields
WASHINGTON (Creators Syndicate) -- The reaction of the Democratic Party establishment to former Vermont Gov. Howard Dean's raising more money during the second quarter of the year than any of his eight rivals for the party's presidential nomination reminds me of the legendary Theodore White's memorable report of the scene in the Boston Garden during John F. Kennedy's last campaign rally on the eve of the 1960 presidential election.

JFK, according to White, was surrounded on the stage by a " covey of the puffy, pink-faced, predatory-lipped politicians who had so dominated Massachusetts politics before he had taken over." Noting their "envious faces" as the candidate spoke, Richard Donahue, a Kennedy aide observed: "You know they can't understand this. They think he has a trick. They're listening to him because they think if they learn the trick, they can be president, too."
http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/07/07/column.shields.opinion.dean/
http://blog.deanforamerica.com/archives/000634.html

[blm]

59. IGNORED Conason's article again?

Go ahead...you and lots of people ignored what was being said by Kerry because the 24/7 networks weren't ready to let Bush fall.


Get real...Dean wouldn't have collected so much money if the press hadn't been telling people he was the liberal, antiwar candidate and the ONLY one who was attacking the other Democrats and Bush.

[w4rma]

64. That was the media and they were doing it to try to marginalize Dean (n/t)

[blm]

69. Ignored Conason's article again?

Why? Because it blows your claim that Dean was bashing Bush all on his own for so long? Funny...Dean had no intention of backing up Gore and Kerry when they were attacking Bush, but he wants to claim the crown for his own attacks which came many months later.

[w4rma]

73. My post #2 works for Kerry, with small changes, also (paraphrased here)

When you consider the totality of their careers, I think Kerry has been one of the most outspoken critics of the Bush administration. However, I think Dean is ahead for this presidential campaign.

Also, if a tree falls in the woods and noone is around to hear it did it make a sound? Dean's campaign has been the campaign with the most people around to hear it.

[blm]

74. Without questioning WHY the media chose to ignore Kerry & Gore?

The shame of it is that you and others here CLAIM to be so well-informed of the political landscape throughout the last 3 years of Bush, and yet you still post that Dean was the only one speaking out against Bush and somehow led the way, when the truth is quite the opposite.

In fact, Dean FAILED to support his fellow Dems when they were criticizing Bush in 2002. But, then, that's when he planned a different campaign that would claim the center.

Here's Dean refusing to back up Kerry and Gore on MTP after Russert referred to their heavy criticisms of Bush.


 MR. RUSSERT: Do you believe the military operation in Afghanistan has been successful?
       
       GOV. DEAN: Yes, I do, and I support the president in that military operation.
       
       MR. RUSSERT: The battle of Tora Bora was successful?
       
       GOV. DEAN: I’ve seen others criticize the president. I think it’s very easy to second-guess the
       commander-in-chief at a time of war. I don’t choose to engage in doing that. 

[w4rma]

75. The media ignored Dean, also, until ... (copy of post #56)

IMHO, the media ignored Dean for primarily the same reasons that the media ignored Kerry and Gore, until …

Final 2nd Quarter People-Powered Howard Report: $7.6 Million Raised
Howard Dean today announced that 73,226 Americans joined together to raise over $7.6 million for the Dean for America campaign in the second filing quarter which ended on June 30. A total of 83,041 individuals have contributed to the campaign overall.

"This campaign is about bringing people back into a political process that for too long has been dominated by Washington insiders out of touch with real Americans,” said Dean. “Behind each of these contributions are the stories of Americans who want to take their country back, and they are making a huge difference."

Fundraising Facts:

Of the 83,041 donors overall, only 891 have maxed out, enabling over 82,000 of them to continue to contribute funds to the campaign in the future.
The average donation to the campaign was $88.11, demonstrating that Americans are participating directly in their democracy, giving what they can to reclaim their government.
Over 62,000 donors gave for the first time to Dean for America this quarter, demonstrating the momentum and growth of the campaign.
…
http://blog.deanforamerica.com/archives/000691.html

Dean Raises $7.5 Million in Second Quarter (rough report)
In the second quarter ending yesterday, 59,000 Americans donated an average of $112 to help boost Governor Howard Dean to the top of the second quarter fundraisers with a total of $7.5 million raised.

Unlike the small, exclusive multi-million dollar fundraisers held in major cities by President Bush over the last week, the Dean campaign saw its numbers surge based on small donations over the Internet—with nearly $3 million raised online in the last week alone. In the second quarter, 45,030 people donated online a total of 51,474 times. The average donation online was $74.14.

“When we said last week during the governor’s announcement that ‘You have the power,’ we had no idea just how much power our supporters had,” said Campaign Manager Joe Trippi. “They are people participating directly in their democracy, and doing whatever they can to help us take our country back—giving $20, $30, or $50. This is People-Powered Howard.”

Second quarter fundraising by the numbers:

Total raised in second quarter: $7,500,000 Total donors (2003 to date): 70,000
Average contribution: $112

First time donors in second quarter: 48,000

Levels of Internet Giving:
Less than $50: 18,422
$50 -- 99: 11,579
$100 -- $249: 11,436
$250 -- $499: 2,379
$500 -- $1,000: 368
$1,000 and up: 129
…
http://blog.deanforamerica.com/archives/000584.html

Howard Dean's trick by Mark Shields
WASHINGTON (Creators Syndicate) -- The reaction of the Democratic Party establishment to former Vermont Gov. Howard Dean's raising more money during the second quarter of the year than any of his eight rivals for the party's presidential nomination reminds me of the legendary Theodore White's memorable report of the scene in the Boston Garden during John F. Kennedy's last campaign rally on the eve of the 1960 presidential election.

JFK, according to White, was surrounded on the stage by a " covey of the puffy, pink-faced, predatory-lipped politicians who had so dominated Massachusetts politics before he had taken over." Noting their "envious faces" as the candidate spoke, Richard Donahue, a Kennedy aide observed: "You know they can't understand this. They think he has a trick. They're listening to him because they think if they learn the trick, they can be president, too."
http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/07/07/column.shields.opinion.dean/
http://blog.deanforamerica.com/archives/000634.html

[blm]

77. Baloney..The more the media called Dean antiwar liberal

the more antiwar liberal money and support he got. You act as if Dean grew out of some vacuum without examining whether or not that vaccum was specifically created.

You also fail to address the accuracy of your own posts that claim Dean was the only one speaking out, when the facts showed he was well behind Kerry and Gore throughout 2002. Too bad he wouldn't STAND behind them when they were hammering Bush.

[MIMStigator]

60. Maybe but so what?

nobody owes him the nomination if he'll lose

[w4rma]

63. See posts #11 and #58 (I'm copying them here)

#11:
If Dean lost his platform to attack Bush from, would Bush's numbers rise again? Would Bush's numbers drop as fast? Would they then drop too slowly to defeat Bush in 2004? Do other candidates have coattails as long as Dean's for Democratic Congressfolk to ride into office on?

#54: only IF he gets the nomination!
#58: I totally agree.

[poskonig]

66. I like your theory.

My version is different. I think Dean forced the other candidates to be more vocal against Bush and change their "agree with defense, disagree with the economy" strategy. With ten people piling on Dubya instead of one, Bush's numbers went down.

[w13rd0]

76. How come every thread on this board...

...now degenerates into snippy ass slapback if it accumulates more than 50 replies? Intentional or not, this bullshit runs counter to the cause (namely removing Bush and his backers from power). Shees, and I thought the time around the 2002 elections was bad, this is positively dreadful.

The 10-percenters continued to criticize Bush and point out things everyone else was happy to ignore. Grandually, the 10 grew to 20 and the 20 to 30 and then 40, and is now nearing 50... The 10-percenters are still the 10-percenters, and yall know who you are, and who they are. Sure, some 10-percenters were 10-percenters because they NEVER trusted, liked or agreed with Bush. Some were 10-percenters because they watched with shock at what Bush and his enablers did. Some were 10-percenters because they believe in "conspiracy theories". Heck, there are a few long time posters here who weren't 10-percenters, writing, along with many others, on September 12th, 2001 that we should all rally behind the Commander and Thief, and shouting down those that disagreed.

So which candidates were 10-percenters? Any of them? I'm a Dean supporter, and I'll admit, I didn't see him as much of a 10-percenter back then. NO ONE IN PUBLIC was a 10-percenter, and if they WERE, they are NO LONGER IN PUBLIC for the most part.

The bickering is complete bullshit, and seeks to ensure that the 50 is divided into 20, 20 and 10. Keep them divided, keep the margins narror, because too close to call is close enough to cheat.

Too many are all too happy to allow themselves to be manipulated, rather than coming to their own well-informed conclusions by observing a body of data and a history of events. I got jumped on because I said one of the reasons I support Dean is that he seems to have undergone a transition similiar to my own, although a few months behind. I'm still more comfortable in the middle than I am on the wings, but the plane is all lopsided and needs some serious recalibration before we all crash and burn.

[Upfront]

79. Yes

they are a days late and dollers short.:evilgrin: