Why is the California Recall so important?

[Enraged American]

I've been thinking that governors have control over the national election process (especially GOP governors), and that Arnold will be able to give Cali to Bush. Is this why we're all concerned all over America?

If not for that I would like to know why I should be concerned over something that's happening on the other side of the US.

Polls show most of California, which is a heavily Democratic state, for the recall. Why is this? Is Davis really a bad governor?

As for Arnold, I respect him for at least making it clear that he's not a worker's candidate. He flat-out says that he is against unions and worker's compensation. He has balls in this department. If there were more purely capitalist Republicans like him who don't care about the Christian vote and the Jewish vote in the federal government, then maybe Democrats would be able to gain votes from imbecile workers who vote Republican because they want Israel to kill the A-rabs and because they vote only for "Kristchuns."

If Bush weren't threatening us with 4 more years of fascism, Arnold, I think, would have been a breath of fresh air. At least he doesn't pretend, like Bush, to be for the worker. Gotta give him that.

[Classical_Liberal]

1. The supporters of Davis are successfully channelling that

fear. It really is scare mongering. He is unpopular because he is a DLC Dem in a Liberal Dem state, and governs accordingly. There is no reason to believe that Arnold will steal the election for Bush. Clinton won California twice under republican governers.

[TroubleMan]

2. You are wrong

We have every reason to believe they will try and are able to steal the electoral votes. They took tens of thousands of legitimate votes away in Florida.

This is a dupe thread read here:

http://democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=413919

[Classical_Liberal]

3. Florida isn't California or like California

1)George Bush's BROTHER governs the state.

2) Florida is a tossup state so it was easy to steal on the margins

3)California is much more democratic than Florida, and extremely hostile to Bush owing to the Enron scandel, and the utility extortionists who are Bush buddies. If they did try to steal it, it would be quite obvious.

4)New York and Massachusetts were still won by Gore despite republican Governers. This fear is completely specious in California though I admit it is completely justified in tossups like Florida.

5)Please look carefully at the people who are hyping this fear. They are the same dlc bunch that publically will claim Florida was won legitimately by Bush and that Liberal Dems who bitch about it are just whiners. They are the same people who are telling us to "get over it!"

[TroubleMan]

4. It was "QUITE OBVIOUS"

when they stole Florida, too, but the media never called them on it. The media basically acted like Gore was trying to steal it or he was whining.

Having aaaahhhhnnoold in there will be just like having Jeb in Florida. There's almost no difference. I know that ahhhnold talks moderate on some issues, but that's just a bunch of bullshit that he needs to say to win in Cali. Like I said before, if he wins, his administration will end up as one of the most conservative neo-con administrations in the US. Look at the guys who are running the scenes behind him, and that's how you can tell this.

Also, Florida is not a swing state. If all the votes are counted, and all of the people who were ERRONEOUSLY listed as felons then Gore would have won the state by at least 60,000 votes.

Over 90,000 people were (and still are) erroneously listed as felons when they are not in Florida. Even though Katherine Harris and Jeb made a public apology and admitted it was wrong, THESE PEOPLE ARE STILL NOT PERMITTED TO VOTE. They simply haven't changed anything yet. That's why Jeb won again. If they let those 90,000 vote, Jeb would have lost.

The same shit is very likely to happen in Cali if aahhhnold wins. The people won't know about it, because the lapdog media will cover it for him.

[Classical_Liberal]

90'000 is not a lot in a state with a large population like Florida

George is set to lose California so overwhelmingly the people will know even without the press.

[camero]

11. and now for the real scare story

Just before Bush was chosen, the FL Legislature voted to make all the electors in the state for Bush even if the recount went to Gore, thus negating the votes of the people.

David Broder has an excellent article on it but I can't remember what date.

Some food for thought. He has a point about Arnold winning the recall.

Edit: Notice I did not say elected.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

5. If Arnold wins California thanks to the likes of you slamming Davis

we can kiss any opposition to ENRON goodbye...but don't bother considering that..it might interfere with ideology.

[Classical_Liberal]

8. Davis didn't oppose Enron

He bailed Enron out.

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Classical_Liberal]

13. He bailed them out

Prove otherwise! Oh have you read the DU rules lately? I support Arianna, and won't be scared into supporting a DLCer.

[mitchtv]

17. you must mean he bailed out SCE and PGE

not ENron, but not being a Californian, you wouldn't understand what they mean

[Classical_Liberal]

19. At least one of those companies is a division of Enron

What's the difference? He bailed out Ken Lay and Co.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

20. No they ARE NOT DIVISIONS OF ENRON AND HE NEEDED

to keep the lights on PROVE YOUR POINT..unless you can't in which case get more posts removed.

[Classical_Liberal]

23. You are the one that had your post removed

. What is the point of defending PG&E and SCE? Were they not the people who got bailed out and screwed California?

[Ardee]

135. arent you confused?

It wasnt PGE and SCE that profitted from the duplicitous and illegal machinations of the energy middle men, PGE almost went bankrupt as they were forced to charge, by PUC mandate, $0.25/KWH for electricity while paying upwards of $0.75/KWH in artificially kited and inflated costs. It was PGE that kept asking Davis to sign long term contracts for energy and abandon an increasingly erratic spot market after all........

[mitchtv]

34. sorry out of stater

not one both very much prdate Enron.
Quiz: can you give us the names of these acronyms?

[mitchtv]

35. sorry out of stater

not one both very much prdate Enron.
Quiz: can you give us the names of these acronyms?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

18. OK rebut this

Angry Davis takes on FERC
BY NICK DRIVER
Of The Examiner Staff

Gov. Gray Davis slammed the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission on Tuesday, accusing President Bush's monitors of lying down on the job.

FERC investigators released a report Tuesday that blasted Enron for price manipulation and deceit, accusing the company of helping to cause the 2000 and 2001 California energy crisis.

The staff recommended the commission pursue "possible misconduct" charges against three Enron affiliate companies and two investor-owned utilities that did business with Enron.

But the report stopped short of issuing any fines or other sanctions, leading an animated Davis to call the report "a whitewash, a sham."

"If you can loot California without any penalties, its a sad day," said Davis at a hastily called press conference.

"California consumers are at serious risk as long as FERC is in charge. I don't know what they are thinking, but they are not doing their job."

The state has asked FERC for $9 billion in refunds stemming from the energy crisis, but so far has been rebuffed. Davis, in the middle of budget stalemate with Republicans in the state Senate, knows the state could really use the refund to balance the budget right now.

The FERC report estimated that over two years, 2000 and 2001, Enron accumulated profits from electricity trades in the West "in the neighborhood of $1.8 billion." It was unclear how much of that came from questionable trading practices.

FERC Commissioner Nora Brownell said the report "certainly identifies companies that we know today were engaging in behavior that was manipulative or inappropriate."

http://www.examiner.com/news/default.jsp?story=n.ferc.0814w

Get all my posts removed. By slamming Davis you are helping Arnold...get this one removed too.

[Classical_Liberal]

21. Yes, and he bailed those dirty buggers out as well

Basically he put on a show of fighting, by taking them to a bunch of repuke courts, and ultimately bailed them out when he could have let them die and bought them out, thus forever removing them as a threat to the people of California. If he really opposed privatization he would have done that. The bailout is one of the reasons there is a budget crisis. He did some things, but he could have done so much more. Why should I settle for less, when I could have more? That is why I prefer Arianna.


Rebutt that!

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

25. Let them DIE and be bought out??? By whom??? Enron???

What are you settling for you don't even LIVE HERE????

[Classical_Liberal]

27. Governer Huffington would give a big boost to progressives nationally

because California is a trend producing state. It would also be a defeat for the DLC which would also be good.

I also think people who treat Arnold like Armageddon have lost it. It is a Rockefeller Republican vs a Rockefeller Republicrat. California can do so much better. The fact that Darrel Issa or any other Conservative Republican can't win is already a defeat for Rove. That is why Issa is telling everyone to vote no on recall.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

36. Arianna is polling at about 5%..she can't win..all you are doing is

helping Arnold.

All your platitudes won't change that fact.

[Classical_Liberal]

41. I don't care whether Arnold wins either

He isn't that bad, and Davis certainly isn't that good. He isn't going to be a fundy or outlaw abortion. He just going to be probusiness, which is just like Davis.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

47. So you admit you are helping Arnold?

[Classical_Liberal]

55. McClintock hurts Arnold

He has a spoiler too, and he isn't any worse than Davis, so I think people should vote for the best candidate who is Arianna Huffington.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

58. Who cannot win and therefore can only peel away liberal votes

If you like her so much...why not invite her to come run in your state?

[Classical_Liberal]

60. You have nothing to offer but cheap shots

That is so typical of Davis Chronies, who don't have much to offer period.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

67. Right..healthcare, open trauma centers, and union jobs are nothing

Davis increased spending in all the areas Californians mandated that he increase it when they voted for him..now the bill is coming due and it is a problem for some.

Arnold thanks you for your support.

I don't.

All you have to offer are ideas that cannot pan out in the real world.....

[Classical_Liberal]

70. His offerings are only under threat of recall

and way to late. Arianna didn't require threats.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

74. Wrong again honey..all of those expenditures and bills were signed

LONG BEFORE the recall was even an idea...in fact ALL were signed prior to the last election.

Batting a big fat ZERO..are you?

Admit it..you don't have a clue.

[Classical_Liberal]

80. They are not important or fundamental reforms I am looking for

just a little bit tinkering.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

83. Again no substantive response...reform your own state.

[Classical_Liberal]

90. That will be more likely when Progressives start the ball rolling

in California.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

94. No it won't they have no clue just like you and respond to this

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=417041&mesg_id=418752&page=

[Democat]

61. You don't care if Arnold wins? Are you a Democrat or a Green?

You are working against, not for, the Democratic Party.

You are working for, not against, the Republican Party.

At least admit the reality of what you are doing. You are helping Republicans and hurting Democrats.

Will you also be working for Bush in 2004?

[Classical_Liberal]

65. I'm a Democrat, and a Liberal

Davis is too conservative for me. So conseverative as to make him little better than Arnold. Arnold would only be worse than Davis if he were a fundy like W. He isn't.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

71. How conservative is he? Any proof of that?

Like signing a bill to let non citizens have drivers licenses so they can get insurance?

Like increasing temporary disability benefits for injured workers for the first time in ten years?

Like signing legislation to force corporate farms to continue the labor contracts signed by private farmers before the corporations bought them out and tried to undermine the migrant laborers?

How liberal can you be knowing ALL OF THAT WILL BE REPEALED IF DAVIS IS DEFEATED.

Oh that's right...you really don't know my state and could NOT have known that since even on the posts where you pretend to know what you are talking about you very obviously don't.

[shanti]

75. no but he's a REPUBLIKKKAN

so he's persona non grata here!

[Classical_Liberal]

if his views are the same as Davis

who cares. Without ideology parties are just dumb and so is voting. Anyway, I am for Arianna.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

82. How are his views the same as Davis?

Davis favored raising the sales tax to offset the budget deficit..Arnold is against any new taxes.

Davis wouldn't sign legislation limiting the rights of workers to choose their own physician when injured. Arnold faovrs it.

Davis signed legislation making it possible for those here illegally to get a license so they can then get INSURANCE...Arnold is agaonst it.

Davis is suing the FERC and the energy companies...Arnold wants to let the market work it out.


Again..you have no idea what you are talking about.

Thank you for proving it.

[shanti]

89. again

i don't give a shit what his views are, he's republikkkan! he's not welcome here!

[Classical_Liberal]

92. That's nice.

.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

96. but you forgot to answer this

How are his views the same as Davis?


Davis favored raising the sales tax to offset the budget deficit..Arnold is against any new taxes.

Davis wouldn't sign legislation limiting the rights of workers to choose their own physician when injured. Arnold faovrs it.

Davis signed legislation making it possible for those here illegally to get a license so they can then get INSURANCE...Arnold is agaonst it.

Davis is suing the FERC and the energy companies...Arnold wants to let the market work it out.


Again..you have no idea what you are talking about.

Thank you for proving it.

[Classical_Liberal]

106. Davis didn't sign that till after the recall was proposed

.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

110. Wrong again..Davis has bucked this one just about every year

since he was elected...

Davis wouldn't sign legislation limiting the rights of workers to choose their own physician when injured. Arnold faovrs it.

but then again you have already proven you don't know what you are talking about

[Classical_Liberal]

114. Davis didn't sign the bill allowing illegals to obtain a license

until the recall was on.

Prove otherwise.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

117. So what? He signed it...Arnold has stated he will repeal it

[Classical_Liberal]

120. You have to threaten him with recall to get him to do anything

on these matters. I want someone who will do it without such threats like Arianna.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

125. NO he increased spending for trauma centers, schools and

healthcare all in his first term. He increased temporary disability benefits for injured workers in his first term. He signed legislation for collective bargaining for migrant workers in his first term.

Again...you have no clue....Nevermind I only happened to FUCKING BE THERE IN SACRAMENTO when he signed the labor legislation.

[Classical_Liberal]

128. Arianna would have done that and more.

she would fund those programs better by revising prop 13, which has particularly hamstrung the states education budget, not to mention the most important thing of all, public financing of elections.

[shanti]

73. as a non-californian

you don't have a dog in this fight, so your opinions about this mean squat.

[Classical_Liberal]

81. I do have a dog in the fight

It hurts the DLC. It helps progressives.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

91. No it hurts Californians....again you have no idea what you are talking

about. Ypu have repeatedly proven you cannot effectively rebut one challenge placed to you in this thread..the best you can do is change the subject.

Thank you for proving it repeatedly in this thread..you have NO CLUE.

[Classical_Liberal]

95. How will Arianna hurt California?

?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

99. She can't win..she is polling at about 5 percent and is NOT

getting those votes from Republicans.

Now answer this re DAVIS VS SCWARZENEGGER:

How are his views the same as Davis?


Davis favored raising the sales tax to offset the budget deficit..Arnold is against any new taxes.

Davis wouldn't sign legislation limiting the rights of workers to choose their own physician when injured. Arnold faovrs it.

Davis signed legislation making it possible for those here illegally to get a license so they can then get INSURANCE...Arnold is agaonst it.

Davis is suing the FERC and the energy companies...Arnold wants to let the market work it out.


Again..you have no idea what you are talking about.

Thank you for proving it.

[shanti]

93. forget about the DLC

the only other option is a puke in office. that is unacceptable.

[Classical_Liberal]

98. Not true there are several other options in this election

besides a repuke, and there is more than one repuke, so they are spoiling themselves.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

100. But you forgot to answer this

How are his views the same as Davis?


Davis favored raising the sales tax to offset the budget deficit..Arnold is against any new taxes.

Davis wouldn't sign legislation limiting the rights of workers to choose their own physician when injured. Arnold faovrs it.

Davis signed legislation making it possible for those here illegally to get a license so they can then get INSURANCE...Arnold is agaonst it.

Davis is suing the FERC and the energy companies...Arnold wants to let the market work it out.


Again..you have no idea what you are talking about.

Thank you for proving it.

[shanti]

103. arianna is an independent

she's not a democrat. california dems want california to stay dem....capiche?

[Classical_Liberal]

107. Arianna is ideologically closer to a Democrat than

Davis. I already told you that without ideology parties are meaningless. I think many Dems understand that too. which is why I think she can win.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

113. There are three frontrunners and Arianna is NOT one of them

all she can be is a spoiler and an Arnold enabler.

[Classical_Liberal]

116. Not yet!

Between ARnold and two others, who cares.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

119. Yeah right..she's gonna gain 20 points in two weeks

in fantasyland.

[Classical_Liberal]

121. It happened in Minnesota for Ventura

It could happen for her.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

26. Sorry..you didn't even respond to the article..REBUT IT..COME ON

I'm waiting for a rebuttal to the article since you know so much.

[Classical_Liberal]

31. He took them to repuke dominated courts

where he predictibly lost, when he could have bought them out. I responded you just didn't like my responce. Tough.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

38. Now it's Davis' fault that the FERC is repuke dominated?

It's DAVIS' fault that the courts are Rpub dominated??? Geez...stop making so much sense! :eyes:

[Classical_Liberal]

46. It's Davis's fault he didn't reprivatise them

He didn't even make the proposal or create an initiative to do so. He fought the republicans on their stongest front instead of the weakest. The fight he put up was a farce, like a bar fight in a movie.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

48. WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT??? Reprivatize?

They are already privatized...again thankyou for underscoring how little you know and making it obvious to everyone who reads this exchange.

How does one reprivatize something that has already been handed over to private interests?

Do you have any idea of the concepts you are talking about?

The answer has to be a RESOUNDING NO!!!

[Classical_Liberal]

50. Sorry I meant deprivatised them!

.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

53. And how would he have done that? Seize property? That's real

constitutional..but since you can't tell the difference between DE and RE I guess I wouldn't expect you to know the TAKINGS clause of the constitution.

[Classical_Liberal]

59. Emminent Domain is constitutional

but he wouldn't have had to do that. He could have just let them go out of business.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

63. He could have let them go out of business which would have had their

interests purchased By DUKE, RELIANT or another company pulling the same crap...again, you have no clue..thanks for proving it.

Please state the grounds on which he could have imminent domained it since you know so much.

I'll hold my breath.

[Classical_Liberal]

72. It is a natural monopoly

The way it was justified that the state own it in the first place.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

77. How is it a natural monopoly under dereg laws?

Again, you advocate lawlessness....you have no clue.

There are five main players in the California energy game...how is it a natural monopoly with five companies involed?

[Classical_Liberal]

84. They monopolize five different regions too

It is a natural monopoly because the rate payer can't shop around between them. If PG&E controlls that region, they have to use PG&E.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

87. I'm not going to bother with you...you have no idea what you are talking

about...you have proven it repeatedly in this thread...

[Classical_Liberal]

102. If someone who lives in a PG& E region of California doesn't like

PG&E, can they get a different utility company? yes or no?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

29. Rebut this too

Lockyer: New documents point to Enron scheming
Newly uncovered Enron documents interpreted as outlining corporate schemes to manipulate energy markets in the West have been sent to congressional investigators, says California Attorney General Bill Lockyer.


"These new documents uncovered recently in Enron's Portland office provide strong confirmation that West Coast energy markets were harmed by price manipulations and distortions by a number of players," Mr. Lockyer says. "While we continue to aggressively pursue our energy investigation in the West, we believe it important to make these Enron documents available for congressional hearings into Enron's business conduct and pricing practices."

The Enron documents include handwritten notes from company meetings in early October 2000 describing power trading strategies used to drive up prices in California's energy market, the attorney general says. The strategies were described by Tim Belden, head of Enron's West Coast trading operations. The Enron meetings were held to prepare for investigations and subpoenas of the company, Mr. Lockyer says. The strategies were given such names as Death Star, Get Shorty, Fat Boy and Ricochet.

The documents can be viewed at http://ag.ca.gov/newsalerts/2002/02-058.htm.

In a letter to the U.S. Senate committee probing the issue, Gov. Gray Davis on Wednesday says Enron documents "have revealed a disturbing pattern of deception and abuse by energy traders."

http://sanjose.bizjournals.com/sanjose/stories/2002/05/13/daily34.html

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

30. And when you are finished, rebut this too

Faulted for getting badly out-negotiated, Davis has been roundly criticized for locking the state into costly long-term contracts. Recent e-mails give some insight over what Davis faced trying to break the cartel's chokehold on the state's power. Despite the costs, Davis believed that long-term contracts were the only way to break the runaway market. After entering the deals, the market eventually collapsed, dropping power prices from an unthinkable $2,900 to its current $20 per megawatt hour. Scrambling to renegotiate the contracts, Davis has the leverage to call the shots. "I assume the companies we have contracts with may have manipulated the market as well. They have to know the truth will out. It is to their advantage to renegotiate a fairer price," said Davis, realizing that he's back in charge. Blowing the same old smoke, the power industry still maintains its innocence. "Our members were disheartened and disappointed because they feel they were doing the best possible job of holding the regulations both in spirit and letter," said Gary Ackerman, director of the Western Power Forum, unwilling to admit egregious abuses.


Before 1996, Enron lobbied hard for deregulation, convincing then Gov. Pete Wilson and the legislature that competition would lead to lower prices and abundant supplies. "From the beginning . . . this was a market of gamers, by the gamers for the gamers," said Cal-ISO board member Mike Florio, discussing how Enron bamboozled the state into deregulating the power industry. In fairness to Enron, during the go-go '90s, with unprecedented economic growth and a sizzling stock market, open markets looked too good to pass up. Only after prices raged out of control, utilities hemorrhaged into insolvency, and lights were finally turned off did consumers realize that deregulation was a nightmare. After signing long-term deals, the runaway power market collapsed, leaving the state upside down. Davis can't be blamed for keeping the lights on. But his delayed response, allowing the state's major utilities to rack up massive debt, saddled consumers with obscene rate hikes. With Enron's bankruptcy, it may be too late to reclaim losses—though California Atty. Gen. Bill Lockyer might sue Enron and its auditor Arthur Andersen.

http://www.onlinecolumnist.com/050802.html

[Classical_Liberal]

37. It wasn't the only way

He also could have reprivatised them. He isn't an opponant of the privatization scheme though.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

40. Reprivatised them? LOL! I guess he could have done this without

the legislature in your fantasyland about how government works...your remedy is NO remedy at all since it is not only unenforcable but not to be found anywhere in reality.

Keep helping Arnold. He appreciates it.

[Classical_Liberal]

43. He could have done it with the legislature since it is overwhelmingly

Liberal. He also could have done it through populist intiative, like prop 13. Nothing stood in his way but Grey Davis.

I don't give a shit what either Arnold or Grey appreciates.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

45. All you do is prove you have no idea what you are talking about

thankyou kindly for underscoring this in this exchange.

[Classical_Liberal]

49. Is the legislature of California controlled by republicans?

? Yes or No?

Can Governers propose ballot initiatives?

Yes or No?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

51. And what ballot initiative do you propose that would alter what was

already owed based on the scheme used by these companies? What legislation do you propose he could have passed that would make a difference..please be specific...your little platitudes void of any real policy are little more than an annoyance.

[Classical_Liberal]

64. Buying out the utility companies as Eminant Domain

.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

79. Again...buying them with what? We have a budget deficit

again..you have no clue..thankyou for proving it...dig deeper.

[Classical_Liberal]

86. You didn't have one back then.

When he bailed them out, which produced the one you have presently.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

101. Again you are proving you have no idea what you are talking about

and you have NOT answered ONE question posed to you.

ANSWER THIS:

How are his views the same as Davis?


Davis favored raising the sales tax to offset the budget deficit..Arnold is against any new taxes.

Davis wouldn't sign legislation limiting the rights of workers to choose their own physician when injured. Arnold faovrs it.

Davis signed legislation making it possible for those here illegally to get a license so they can then get INSURANCE...Arnold is agaonst it.

Davis is suing the FERC and the energy companies...Arnold wants to let the market work it out.


Again..you have no idea what you are talking about.

Thank you for proving it.

[Classical_Liberal]

109. For one thing you, Arnold and Davis all agree that

PG&E isn't a natural monopoly and it would be wrong to reregulate them, meaning you all supported deregulating them. Meaning you have no problem with their price gouging which couldn't have been done if they weren't a natural monopoly or a trust.

I rest.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

111. Bull fucking shit

Please tell me HOW they can be reregulated

[Classical_Liberal]

118. Well when one of the companies was about to go under

it could have been bought up.


Eminent Domain could have been used as well.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

143. You haven't explained how? Are you a lawyer?

[shanti]

78. NSME

nothing like an outsider to tell us californians how to run this state, eh?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

85. An outsider who thinks the state can just seize property regulated by

federal laws...:eyes: helping Arnold win on DU.

[shanti]

97. yes

very misinformed....

[Classical_Liberal]

112. So how did the state come to own Califonra untilities in first place?

If it didn't own them, how did it deregulate them?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

115. I am not going to explain energy policy to you in a nutshell

perhaps if you would stop enabling Arnold and read the four various enegy theads that are already open you would have half a clue..you don't

[Hell Hath No Fury]

62. Have to agree with NSMA, here...

"He could have done it with the legislature since it is overwhelmingly Liberal. He also could have done it through populist intiative, like prop 13. Nothing stood in his way but Grey Davis."

Wrong-o. Our Legislature is NOT overwhelmingly liberal -- if you believe that you REALLY don't know what you're talkin' about!

[Classical_Liberal]

33. Who is defending Enron?

Surely not me.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

42. No you are attacking Davis who is the only governor in the 50 US states

to have taken on Bush. You then seem to be defending Bush by attacking Davis.

[Classical_Liberal]

52. He didn't take on Bush

He bailed out the utilities. If he had bought out the utilities that would have truly hurt Bush.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

57. What would he have bought them out with? His good looks?

Gray Davis, Bill Lockyer and Joe Dunn most certainly DID take on the Bush administration...I posted AMPLE proof of that to which you have still not responded in substance.

[Classical_Liberal]

76. The same money he bailed them out with.

Not to difficult.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

104. What money is that? Enron went belly up

What were his choices.....let the lights get turned off? Let businesses go out of business.

Please answer a question in earnest...if you BELIEVE IN YOUR LITTLE FAIRY TALE SO MUCH it shouldn't be too difficult to discuss policy wise how it could have been accomplished.

The fact is you can't and you can't because you have no idea how laws or government or policy work..

You have No idea what you are talking about.

admit it.

[Classical_Liberal]

122. Not Enron. PG&E

If he bought them out the lights wouldn't go out, and businesses would be threatened, that is the whole point.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

124. Were they for sale? What would he have bought them with?

[Classical_Liberal]

126. The same money he balied them out with.

If they go out of business their assets including untility lines and power plants go up for sale.

[Oracle]

136. Your full of shit Classical_Liberal!

I'm sick and tired of your lies and bullshit...just because you repeat it over and over does NOT make it true...you tells lies and when people can't stand your lies any longer and tell you to shut the fuck up or tell the truth...you run to the mods and get them deleted or thrown off...you behave like a child Skippy and I don't argue with children...However I am going to watch you and everytime you tell obvious blatant lies and distortions as you continue to do... I'll be there to set the record straight. Now go cry to the mods. I've had enough.

[StClone]

6. It's happening

3)California is much more democratic than Florida, and extremely hostile to Bush owing to the Enron scandel, and the utility extortionists who are Bush buddies. If they did try to steal it, it would be quite obvious.

The expert Rep/Cons are brought in to conceal, deceive, steal, manipulate, psy-op the operation. Californians think they can resists the long term objectives of the power-brokers who now have had the entire U.S. hoping to their tune? These guys have enormous wealth, relentless drive, deadly serious focus and sanguinary intentions. Have you seen the movie TERMINATOR? Ahnolt is just that for these psychos. He is the power tool of the BFEE clan.

[Classical_Liberal]

9. Sorry won't wash

if he loses California by 30 points there is no way your could cover it up.

[Democat]

16. You think California is more Democratic, but that doesn't matter

More people say they are going to vote for Arnold/McClintock than Cruz. More people are going to vote for a Republican than Democrat.

Don't close your eyes to the fact that Arnold could be the front of a new wave of Republicanism in California.

If you help get him elected, you are no better than the Nader voters in 2000.

At some point, Democrats (if you consider yourself a Democrat) are going to have to wake up from dreamland and start living in reality.

Winning is the only thing that matters in politics.

If we lose the governor's office, it doesn't matter how many "democratic voters" there are, we won't have the governor.

[Capn Sunshine]

32. I used to think people that quoted polls were sophisticated

But when the polls in question are damaged goods, well, they just become a part of the problem, not the solution.

[noiretextatique]

123. amen, capn sunshine...this is an imporant election

but the hysteria doesn't help...at all.

[leesa]

7. Remember, we stepped through the looking glass a while back

His job may well be to continue the job of destroying California's economy. Cheney, Wilson and Ken Lay started the job with their theft of billions in the energy scam and placing a completely unqualified loser at the reins will put the final nail in our coffin. As California goes, so goes the US...and the rich elite take all.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

12. Arnold, refreshing?

I guess you wouldn't have to be living here, huh?

I believe the push for CA is two-fold:

Having a GOPer -- especially a famous one -- in office will allow GW to spend oddles of time here during the campaign and get loads of coverage of him with Arnie's arm around his shoulder. Couple that with government bucks pouring into CA as a thank-you to Arnie and greasing the CA wheels and you can see why BushCo wants Arnie in. Bush barely even bothered to campaign here in 2000 -- he knew it was a lost cause, but with Arnie in place he might be able to make a good showing.

Also, there are sooo many WH scandals contected to CA, it would make GW more happy to have it in GOP hands for awhile. Arnie won't be suing GW's friends or demanding the tunring over of the Cheney energy task force documents. Arnie in office will shield Bush.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

14. BTW...

"If there were more purely capitalist Republicans like him who don't care about the Christian vote and the Jewish vote in the federal government, then maybe Democrats would be able to gain votes from imbecile workers who vote Republican because they want Israel to kill the A-rabs and because they vote only for 'Kristchuns.'

If Bush weren't threatening us with 4 more years of fascism, Arnold, I think, would have been a breath of fresh air. "

A Dennis Kucinich supporter saying this? Umm...right...

[Democat]

15. If Arnold wins California is means Bush can win California

Maybe you miss the point that they are both Republicans and Arnold has said publicly many times that he supports Bush.

Arnold voters combined with McClintock voters equal a higher number than Democratic (Cruz) voters in the polls.

If you don't see a problem with more people in California voting Republican than Democratic, what more can be said?

[noiretextatique]

22. not going to happen, if people vote NO on the recall

that will crush both the giant chimp and the little chimp

[Democat]

28. I agree, but some DUers are voting yes on the recall!

Just like what happened in 2000, some on the left are going to vote yes on the recall and try to help hand the governorship to a Republican.

There are some on our side who would rather live in a fantasy world than in reality, and in doing so, they are screwing the entire country by helping people like Bush and Arnold get into office.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

44. Agreed..I can't believe this site is being used for that

but it clearly is.

[noiretextatique]

56. so what? just like in 2000, people have the right to vote

for whomever and whatever they choose. and just like in 2000...in a fair election (the missing ingredient in 2000) even democrats will have to deal with the outcome. having said that: i am voting NO on the recall, and i am urging everyone i know to do so also.
the giant chimp can go back making dumb movies.

[Democat]

66. People have a right to vote for Bush and DeLa if they want, but this is DU

Wouldn't you expect people on Democratic Underground to support Democrats?

I would like to think DUers wouldn't choose to help Arnold steal the governor's office from a Democrat.

There are some here who will not face reality, no matter how much harm living in a fantasy world does to America and the world.

[noiretextatique]

105. this is democratic, not Democratic underground

:shrug: i will vote against the recall...i hope others do as well. i encourage you to try to change some minds, and i truly wish you the best of luck with that.

[Classical_Liberal]

129. I am a Democrat

but I think our party is being taken over by moderate republicans. I dont' like this trend.

[Capn Sunshine]

24. THE DISINFO YOU GUYS ARE READING OUT THERE IS ENDEMIC

The news services refer to Arnold as the "frontrunner" when Bustamante leads him by 5%. The news services give you the impression that Mc Clintocks people will vote Arnold if he drops out. The news services tell you that the Recall is a fait accompli when it is not. They quote the 22% number like its reality.

I would think DUers were sophisticated enough to see these tricks but , the real news barely gets across state lines.

The FACTS are fluid and transient but at the moment:
* NO on recall is TIED with YES. NO has momentum, especially after
the horror that was the debates.
* Bustamante has a comfortable lead.
* McClintock supporters are principled conservatives and they HATE
Arnold. HATE. They will abstain rather than vote for him.
** The 22% support figure was based on PHRASING of the question.
They didn't ask, but SHOULD have a part two: if Davis were in
an ELECTION against a republican would you vote for him?
Because THAT answer would have been telling; the democratic base
here unites behind their man even if they don't necessarily
approve of the current state of affairs.

Finally the whole thing was a clearly articulated strategy devised at the national level with the full intent of fomenting partisan discord and putting the state in electoral play.

What else aren't they telling you guys back east?

[Classical_Liberal]

39. I don't believe you are very representative.

I think you are another DLC fearmonger. California won't be in play no matter who wins.

[Capn Sunshine]

54. Despite your belief, here's the fear:

Californai is stolen using techniques we have discussed ad infinitum. When the people question it the media embarks on a blitz of "this change to republican support began with the recall and the election of Republican Arnold who is hugely popular now"

Tell me you can't see that coming down the freeway

[Democat]

69. If Arnold gets into office, he will do all he can to destroy the Dems

After three years of Bush, why can't every DUer clearly see the dangers of helping get a Republican elected in California?

Did we learn nothing from 2000?

[Classical_Liberal]

131. Yes, but California isn't Florida

Bush doesn't have a chance there, it won't even be close. How can he steal it if he loses by 30- points?

[shanti]

68. "most" of the voters support the recall?

that is pure and total shyte. they got 1 million signatures, a drop in the bucket of voters in cali. i hardly call that most!

[Loyal]

88. This thread has degenerated

into a brutal flame war between 2 or 3 people. Why does everything always do that? :shrug:

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

108. Because I am NOT going to give my hard earned money to a site

that simply allows someone to spread disinformation with NO BACKUP to help undermine the governor's office in my state. Every person that is posting on this thread, myself included has pt BLOOD SWEAT and TEARS into this recall and overcoming it and there is NOTHING that chafes my ASS WORSE than seeing someone spread COMPLETE LIES such as "Davis is a Republican" Davis BAILED ENRON OUT" Davis and Scwarzenegger are the same" when I have MORE THAN DEMONSTRATED that to NOT be the case.

For one person in this flame war it is no more than child's play.


not true AT ALL for myself, MitchTV OR CAPTAIN SUNSHINE all who have WORKED OUR ASSES OFF AND BELIEVE IN DU enough to send our hard earned money to this place only to see OUR STATE being put up for fodder by assholes who don't even think enough of this site to send a goddamn DIME!!

[noiretextatique]

127. personally, i wouldn't care if davis was the devil incarnate

i would STILL vote NO on the recall. the last thing californians needs is a giant chimp in sacramento.
thanks to NSMA and all the DUers who are working their asses off to stop another republican coup :hi:

[Classical_Liberal]

130. Basically Davis could be EXACTLY like Bush

and you would think you were accomplishing something?

That is why I think some people have lost their bearings on this one.

[noiretextatique]

134. how does governor arnold sound to you?

HE IS EXACTLY LIKE BUSH...no "could be" about it. and unlike bush, davis was actually elected...there's one BIG difference between the two.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

142. It doesn't matter, he doesn't live here

this is about hearing himself talk...he doesn't even understand the energy crisis and thinks Arianna can single handedly unravel prop 13 and pass clean elections law...one wonders how she can do that with none of the legislature in her court...but hey...fantasyland is a great ride at Disneyland.

[Oracle]

137. And your bullshit Arianna crap...

How many votes you expect her to get...it's a smokescreen for you to have a republican in office...FACTS ARE FACTS...let's look at them...

You said your voting yes on the recall to get rid of Democrat Davis.

You say your not going to vote for Democrat Cruz, but IND. Huffington
who anyone with the slighest bit of a brain and ALL polls show she'll not come close to winning not a chance in hell and you KNOW it!

You praise Republican Arnold as better than the Democrat Davis...

GET FUCKING REAL IT'S OBVIOUS TO ALL TO SEE YOUR ARE for BY DEFAULT YOUR FOR A REPUBLICAN FOR GOV. WHO IN THE FUCK CAN'T SEE THIS THIS...THESE ARE YOUR WORDS!!!

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

140. Davis has NOTHING in common with Bush so your point is moot

as are most of your points on this thread since you don't know what you are talking about.

One has to KNOW what they are talking about to have bearings so I think you are projecting a bit.

[Loyal]

132. I donated, NSMA.

I just haven't gotten my star yet. Look for it tomorrow. :shrug:

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

139. I wasn't referencng you and usually don't care unless the posts

made are helping to aid mutiny as they are with another poster who doesn't even know what he is talking about.

If one said DEAN WERE the same as BUSH or KERRY WAS THE SAME AS Bush or DASCHLE was the SAME AS BUSH without any proof to back it up, they would wear a tombstone over their name in a heartbeat.

It fails all logic to think that simply because this is in a state that happens to be the 6th largest economy in the world, it should be acceptable to aid and abet a coup on DU.

My apologies if you think I meant you...I'm really a nice girl but I have worked my ASS OFF for an election that is less than 2 weeks away and to have some MORON who does not know his ASS FROM A HOLE IN THE GROUND post things like California could have REREGULATED and Davis bailed out ENRON which is a bald faced chickenshit bull shit lie...makes me...well FOUL! Can you tell? ;-)

Unlike some around here..I ACT..I don't just sit around jacking off on my computer and posting diatribes spun out of whole cloth.

[Oracle]

145. Thank you, Man I do understand your frustration...

perhaps not to your extent and I and many others thank you so...and I too have worked and donated my time and money, focused on very little else...but, NO on the Recall! Getting people to understand the consequences of losing Davis to a republican funded recall and how it will allow Rove’s big fat foot in the door and steal California and Republican Arnold who will fall right in line for family friend and fellow fascist George Bush…

Ca Gov ALWAYS get re-elected for eight years this would be no different for another eight years, history does indeed repeat itself…just going back in recent Ca history of Gov. eight years each for Earl Warren, E Brown, R Reagan, J Brown, G Dukmajian, P Wilson, G Davis...I don't want to see eight year of Arnold and republican rule again because of republican wealth able to buy and steal a recall.

[mitchtv]

133. I feel like being deleted

classical liberal has been trashing davis and and defending Arnold for weeks while pretending tosupport Arianna. You'll notice that he never talks her up just trashed our governor the f'n out of state s disrupter crying to the mods every time someone calls him on it , Go a fucking head Mods you have turned into the media -protecting the enemy!

[Oracle]

138. Your absolutely correct.it's making me sick too...his Arianna smokescreen

He won't support Democrat Davis

He won't support Democrat Cruz

He says he's for
Independent Artanna but never tells us her policy.

He says he's going to vote Yes on the recall.

And continues to rant how republican Arnold, Rove's chosen man, is better than everyone else running...

What's that tell you????

I'll bet my life he gathered petitions.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

141. It tells me that with an election less than 2 weeks away, DU can be used

for mutiny if the admin allows it. That's what it tells me...did you ever believe the site you love would advocate mutiny??? It appears they do.

[noiretextatique]

144. nobody is buying this, nsma

at least not those of us who actually *live* in california :hi:
does the poster live here? doesn't sound like it, but s/he did mention voting against the recall, and for huffington...so i'm not sure.

[Skinner]

146. I'm locking this.

The california recall is important because it's a FUCKING GOP POWER GRAB.

And Arnold is not a "breath of fresh air".

Skinner
DU Admin

[Booberdawg]

147. A view from Iowa on the recall, and debunking Classical_Liberal myths

First of all, Classical_Liberal, I don't think I have ever seen so much snake oil espoused and promoted by someone who should, or could, know better. FYI, there are several active threads on the energy bill will numerous sources and documents on the deregulation and how it was used to manufacture the California energy crisis by the likes of Enron and Ken Lay. Having spent a lot of time participating in those threads and reviewing the materials myself over the last week, I can tell you without reservations or uncertainty that Davis did NOT BAIL OUT ENRON!

You have simply cluttered this thread with, frankly, a lot of bullshit about the California deregulation debacle, and I encourage you to educate yourself if you intend to hold yourself out as authoritative on the matter. And indeed, you profess to advise people in a state YOU ARE NOT A RESIDENT OF on how to vote in the recall matter, based on snake oil that you feel compelled to stand by and promote for some reason, and have made no reasonable attempts to rebut or even address facts and other sourced arguments that fly in the face or outright debunk the nonsense you are promoting.

I am a resident of Iowa and will tell you why this recall election IS important to the rest of the nation, the Democratic Party, and why it IS important that Davis wins this fight.

In the first place, this recall is nothing but manufactured bullshit to overturn another election from the Republican Party that was planned almost immediately after Davis WON in a FAIR ELECTION ONLY LAST YEAR. What the fuck is THAT when sources OUTSIDE the state of California promote and fund a recall immediately after an election didn’t go their way to grease the skids for the 2004 Presidential election?

Republicans are good at planning for the long term and exploit this kind of shit and as Democrats we have to stop losing these battles. They did it in Florida 2000, they are doing it in the Texas redistricting, and they are doing the same thing in California right now. We not only have to stop losing these battles but also have to STOP allowing them to play this game!

Here is the danger I see with the California recall to the rest of us and why I have followed it so closely. The first and most obvious danger is having a Republican Governor installed at the time of the 2004 election and a Republican Governor making the assignments of other important positions in the state. For those who don’t agree that having a Republican installed as governor of California doesn’t grease the skids for bush* in 2004 then I think that is just naïve and I’m not even going to debate that point because you are just wrong and there’s nothing more I can say about it.

Another danger I see with this is that if they do get away with this in California, what’s to say that Republicans are not going to exploit recall laws in every state in the union when regularly scheduled elections or close elections don’t go their way? Are we going to start seeing recall elections all over the United States now every time a Democrat wins a key state or one that is otherwise useful to the Republican longer term strategy? That’s what I fear this is coming to and I want to see this STOPPED NOW in California.

And one final note for those hell bent on using this forum to defeat Davis or the Democratic Party in California, you should be aware that if a Republican wins that election, the structure and organization is already in place to begin ANOTHER recall petition to oust the Republican. And I would be 100% behind that effort as well.