Is it possible that Wes Clark might be more progressive than Howard Dean

[tokenlib]

Much has been made of Wesley Clark's votes for Reagan and Bush and the video of his praises to "W" and his foreign policy team. And being in the military culture for so long which stereotypically leans republican because of the emphasis on foreign policy and military might may have had an influence on those votes. Who knows what may have been in his mind? I do not.

But last night I watched the Clark town meeting on NH on C-Span. Clark gave a similar rationale to his political identity as he did during the debate. But then, listening to his comments was facinating. For someone supposedly short on specifics, he sure gave a lot of information as to what he believes--on the environment, health care, Iraq and foreign policy, homeland security and the Patriot Act---he was a convincing democrat on much of it.

I like Howard Dean and have been supporting him. But Clark is pushing a lot of my progressive buttons. His answer on Social Security was excellent and passed my litmus test with flying colors. He gives off vibes on the environment that should thrill any but the most die-hard "green" types.

Is it possible once his domestic views come out, that Wesley Clark could be as progressive as Howard Dean? Or maybe more so?

I'm beginning to wonder.

[RobertFrancisK]

1. Transcript?

I'd love to read it.

[Renew Deal]

3. Closest thing to a transcript so far.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=413087

[goobergunch]

2. He gave good answers last night

But I was disappointed that he didn't elaborate on the gay marriage issue.

[Toucano]

7. Nor did he elaborate

on the medical marijuana issue. These are both (to use Maher's term) "the third rail" of politics.

It was noticeable that his answers to those questions were short.

On the bright side, when addressing the victimized former military person, he said something to the effect of

everyone who wants to serve should be able to serve and be treated with respect.

I took that to include gays and lesbians.

[Pepperbelly]

4. I have been telling people this long before he decided to run ...

I know the values he was raised with and they were the same one I was raised with. His moral underpinnings are decent, his concern for regular people is total, and his energy and intellect are formidable.

[Warpy]

5. Dean is no liberal

That's been pretty well established. Oh, he's no bloody-minded fascist, either, but he's not the foaming communist the DLC and GOP have portrayed him as. It's not difficult to be to the left of Dean.

However, Dean's strengths are Clark's liabilities: Dean is a DLC outsider, and he's got a proven track record in the executive branch of a state government. Clark is a DLC knight in shining armor, and Clark's experience is as a military automaton, although he's tried to shed that particular image.

I guess the decision is thus: if you want the bigger liberal, back Clark. If you want to get your party back from the DLC, back Dean.

[Zuni]

8. I do not recall Clark being in the DLC

but certain other democrats are.

[Warpy]

9. He's their anointed one

... since they've realized Lieberman won't bring in the votes.

[Renew Deal]

20. Are you making stuff up?

proof please?

[Zuni]

26. sounds

like it is a suspicion, not fact. He is also called Hillary's Trojan Horse, a member of the PNAC, and other things just because he knows the Clintons, and has dealt with Perle and Wolfowitz and Cheney.

[Julien Sorel]

43. So if Clark is more liberal than Dean, and the DLC is evil

because it's 'Repub-lite,' how is Dean somehow more appealing than Clark? I've been waiting for a while now for someone to point out the absolute illogic of this position.

[kiahzero]

69. Simple

He's lying if what he says is percieved as positive. He's telling the truth if it's something that's percieved as hurtful. Therefore, he's clearly Satan.
:eyes:

[Zuni]

6. I think Clark has a good grasp on the issues

And I have read things he has written and heard what he has said in speeches, and it often jibes with my core beliefs.

He seems to analyze every issue deeply, and like me, often has conflicting views on them. I am not beholden to any single ideology, and I recognize there are often two sides to every story.

I am not a Green,(and never will be) and view them with suspicion. As George Orwell once said, Pacifists in the West spend more time attacking their own countries while ignoring the atrocities committed against humanity by the totalitarians. (I think he was talking about the Soviet Sympathizers and Communists in the UK) The Greens strike me as that type, and that is why they will always be against Clark, who, despite the fact that NATO caused civilian casualties, defeated a far more brutal force that attacked civilians as a matter of course.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

10. I Honestly Believe Clark Is More Liberal Than Dean

They're very similar, but Clark has the slight nod in my view.

I also note that Clark will have a much better chance of enacting his proposals, particuarly those surrounding the military and foreign policy, in a Thug Congress. No other candidate will be able to cut the military budget, like Clark wants, IMO. Only Nixon could go to China.

DTH

[Zuni]

15. Good points

Clark would definetly have an advantage in terms of legislation if the House and Senate are still controlled by the GOP.

[tokenlib]

11. I thought C-span would replay it today

But the schedule doesn't show it.

Clark was impressive. When the woman who had been sexually abused in the army confronted him with her concerns--I thought he showed sensitivity in a difficult moment and handled it with sincerity.

[blm]

12. Clark's aligning his positions most with Kerry...

so, yes, that would be more to Dean's left. Dean's more of a Federalist on many issues.

[tsipple]

13. Uh, No

Simple answer, actually -- although we don't know a lot yet about where Wesley Clark stands on very many issues.

One example, though, is the Bush Tax Plan. Dean wants to scrap the whole thing. Clark likes some of it.

[tokenlib]

23. Clark supports a progressive tax system

During the NH town meeting, Clark spoke more about his feelings about taxes than he needed to in answer to one question. He spoke of his support for progressive taxation in opposition to flat tax proposals. Instead of simply answering questions with what he could have gotten away with--he really seemed to care about his listeners understanding his position.

That he feels those who have received the most benefits from society should give more back in taxes than those who have less was well expressed.

[JasonBerry]

14. Wes Clark can CREATE whatever he wants to be

A sad truth about all of this is that Wesley Clark has fooled many good progressive Democrats into believing he is one of us! Unfortunately, General Clark's professional history tells a far different story. However, because of great excitement and expectations for a "savior" , many Democrats have turned their minds away from the truth as reported in many magazines, newspapers, etc. over the last few weeks. I was writing much of this MONTHS ago on DU in hopes of heading off an opportunist Clark bid for the presidency.

The sad fact of the matter is this: Wesley Clark can be whatever he wants (or needs) to be to attempt to hijack the nomination of the Democratic Party.

We must PAY ATTENTION. Clark's history is there for all to see. But, WE can choose whether to put our trust in this man (and believe his spin that ALL of these things can be "explained") OR we can stand up and reject the HIJACKING of our party by this cunning man of unlimited ego and high ambition.

Progressive? Only in Orwell's world can General Wesley K. Clark be called a progressive Democrat.

[Pepperbelly]

16. come on jason ...

you've hated him from day 1.

[Zuni]

17. These people

will never trust a general. Wesley Clark could spend the rest of his life travelling around the world feeding hungry children and they would still challenge his credentials.

[Pepperbelly]

19. you may be right ...

I hate that people can be so closed-minded but what can you do?

If you cannot convince them with reasoning, then all you can do is respond to their specific criticisms and mock their more extreme slogans.

[JasonBerry]

25. "Close minded" ??????

I think it is the worshipers of Wesley Clark who are being "close-minded!" It's easy to blame all of the press that reflects poorly on General Clark as coming from Karl Rove's office.

And, by the way, it's not a "General" thing. You are right, I did not approve of MANY of his actions in his chosen career. However, that's another easy one-liner for the Clark supporters. "They don't like Generals." The FACT is that with all of the information that comes out about Clark (none of which he has denied - only attempts to explain away) I have know for a LONG time. I wouldn't care if his career had been as a shoe salesman.

[Pepperbelly]

31. oh jason ...

it must be tough on you to find a limited audience for the sos you've been peddling all along.

And yes, closed-minded certainly applies to anyone who persists in repeating fairy tales over and over and over and wondering why he's still a frog rather than a prince.

[FubarFly]

38. I guarantee you, I am not close-minded.

I really really want to like Clark. This inane tactic of attempting to marginalize critics is making me seriously suspicious about Clark. You are not easing doubts, you are creating them.

[Pepperbelly]

51. There are things you don't know about I think ...

History among some of the long-term personalities on the board. You have no idea how long I have argued with Jason about this. No idea at all. With that kind of history, it is difficult if not impossible to treat each of their posts with the same attention one might pay to someone else's.

[JasonBerry]

45. "Fairy tales"?????? QUESTIONS FOR YOU

Let's just look at the NBC story today:
http://www.msnbc.com/news/972597.asp?0cv=CB10
STARTING just after the Sept. 11, 2001, terror attacks, Clark sought out dozens of government and industry officials on behalf of Acxiom Corp., a data powerhouse that maintains names, addresses and a wide array of personal details about nearly every adult in the United States and their households, according to interviews and documents.
Clark, a Democrat who declared himself a presidential candidate 10 days ago, joined Acxiom’s board of directors in December 2001. He earned $300,000 from Acxiom last year and was set to receive $150,000, plus potential commissions, this year, according to financial disclosure records. He owns several thousand shares of Acxiom stock worth more than $67,000.

Is that a fairy tale? No....I know.....Karl Rove has been busy yet again.

Is it a fairy tale that just TWO YEARS AGO he was praising Bush, Sr. along with Cheney, Rumsfeld and Condi Rice?

Is it a fairy tale that he says one thing to the New York Times one day and says something - completely opposite - the next?

Is it a fairy tale that he says he voted for Nixon and Reagan? That he was known as an opportunist in the military? That he told General Cisneros he didn't want to lead SouthCom and was not interested in the position (milking him for info on Latin America at the same time) only to turn around and accept the leadership of the Southern Command only weeks later? ON EDIT: If some want to know the tip of the iceberg on this one: http://www.time.com/time/election2004/article/0,18471,488811,00.html

Is it a fairy tale that Wesley Clark was recalled EARLY from Europe and told Tim Russert he never asked why?

Is it a fairy tale that he played politics with his announcement (even his party affiliation!) and then, on announcement day - admitted - he hadn't "worked out" policy positions on domestic issues? Excuse me if I am old-fashioned, but I expect an individual to have positions on the issues on the day he announces he wants to be president of the United States. Go figure. Maybe it's just me, but it would be nice to see someone like Clark run on IDEAS rather than pretty hair, medals and a smile.

Clark supporters can continue to toss out one-liners about "fairy tales" and "Rove's busy smearing Wes" but some of us know the truth! And, the truth, my friend Pepperbelly, is not pretty.

[HalfManHalfBiscuit]

49. KKKarl Rove thanks you

From the bottom of his heart.

[Pepperbelly]

53. There you go again ...

trying the shotgun approach.

Pick one of those and let me know which one and we will deal with it. And that is the same tactic that those who do not have strong arguments use. That was the tactic of the House Republicans when they impeached Clinton. "Well, that might be it but you gorgot that one over there." And away they'd run on the new one.

That is a bullshit tactic. Pick which of those slurs you want to discuss and let me know.

[JasonBerry]

57. Slurs??? Okay, Pepperbelly

You said:

"Pick which of those slurs you want to discuss and let me know.

Slurs? You ask me to pick just one (I'd really like to hear about all of them). So, let's take the latest - from MSNBC today:
http://www.msnbc.com/news/972597.asp?0cv=CB10

Could you explain Clark's working for Acxiom Corp while, according to him, holding "progressive values"???

Democrats deserve to hear the other side of Wesley Clark than the side he and his troops want us to hear. Facts are always nasty little things that get in the way of a man running for office under false pretenses.

By the way: saw another Clark worshiper saying "Karl Rove thanks you." THAT was the point of my original post in this thread - it seems all attempts at shedding light on this mystery man is met with accusations of doing Karl Rove's dirty work. Clever - but few are buying it. THAT is the REAL slur.

[Pepperbelly]

58. my girlfriend worked for Acxiom ...

Acxiom started life compiling phone books and converting them to digital for use in direct mail and telemarketing. They are not some scary, Illuminati monster. They still dance with who brung them, so to speak and their business is primarily compiling information for marketing.

Because marketing information might be useful to the government, they tried to sell them the same information. The hyperventilating folk across America hear about that one thing ... their opportunism in selling info that the government wanted, as proof of some dark motive.

It is not.

So far as Wesley's seat on the Board, I have absolutely no problem with that at all. It's what companies do. Just like Stephens did. Local boy makes good and the home-skillet corporations try to snag him for their boards because his resume is impressive and it will help them. My only surprise is that he isn't also on Walmart and Tyson's boards as well. They pay you a chunk for doing very damned little.

Whooper-do.

So what else do you want to know about Acxiom?

[Pepperbelly]

59. also ... here's a link ...

go see what they do.

http://www.acxiom.com/

[JasonBerry]

61. And THIS is Acxiom

http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/techpolicy/2003-09-23-acxiom-jetblue_x.htm

Now, about Clark's getting $300,000 a year for sitting on their board. Pepperbelly, was this a reward for service in the military? Or a pipeline to the military-industrial complex?

I wouldn't run around bragging about ties to Acxiom. Their BIG business is violating the civil and privacy rights of ALL OF US.

[Pepperbelly]

63. so?

It is exactly consistent with what I wrote.

And Acxiom's position is that they have violated neither privacy laws mor their own policies. :shrug:

Did they? I don't know. Did Wesley help broker that deal? I don't know that either. However, if he didn't have something to do with the alleged violations, can you tell why this isn't what it appears to be --guilt by association-- in your post?

[JasonBerry]

66. And 2+2=5 In The World of the Clark Campaign N/T

~

[Pepperbelly]

68. What does that mean?

I suspect that you don't have anything of substance to justify your initial chest-thumping assertions and that is what the post means. So, will we hear more about the nefarious Acxiom after this thread disappears into oblivion or will we have to do this yet again?

[FubarFly]

28. Has he fed hungry children?

That would be good. If you have positive info about Clark, please share.

[w13rd0]

29. No, actually a little of that...

...before announcing for President (or Democrat) would have likely helped. Involvement in a few organizations, activist or interventionist, childhood reading, health care in poverty, something like that... Would have helped a lot to bolster the words. Toe in the water for the past six months, some of that time could have been spent actually doing some of the above...

Just my thoughts...

[DoveTurnedHawk]

34. Clark Donated to Erskine Bowles and Raised Money for Cleland and Swett

He has been active; people just haven't been looking hard enough.

It's funny how the only thing that gets play around here is the RNC dinner, pushed by -- surprise surprise -- the RNC and Drudge, of all people.

DTH

[Pepperbelly]

36. shhhhh ... you might disabuse someone of ...

their misconceptions.

[FubarFly]

41. Please disabuse!!! n/t.

[FubarFly]

40. This would be a good post topic.

Someone should round up all the good info and put it out there.
It would go a long way towards easing doubts.

[JasonBerry]

22. I don't "hate" him, but you're right

I have tried to warn people here since DAY ONE that Clark was mentioned as a possible candidate (many months ago) about this man's motives, his knack for being incredibly opportunistic and his record that is FAR from a PROGRESSIVE Democrat.

I didn't intend my post to seem like I hadn't always disliked him, that's obvious. So, I don't quite understand the reply to my post making it sound like I have been anything BUT disdainful of Clark's ambitions.

EDIT FOR GRAMMAR

[Pepperbelly]

35. wow!

Sorry to imply that you ever approached him with an open mind. Accept my apologies.

:eyes:

[DoveTurnedHawk]

37. ROTFL!!!

Sorry to imply that you ever approached him with an open mind.

You are HILARIOUS, PB!

High five!

DTH

[JasonBerry]

47. You are both wrong and here's why....

I was researching Wesley Clark before most Americans had ever heard the name - as in back to Fort Hood. That rhetoric of having an open-mind is utter bull. It is the closed minds that concern me. Closed to anybody shedding light on the REAL Wesley Clark.

[Julien Sorel]

50. Start shedding then.

You've been researching him, you have the information -- shed. Or should I ask your good friend Bill for the information?

[JasonBerry]

62. ???????

Sorry, Mr. Bunter. No clue what you meant by that post. My good friend, Bill?

[boxster]

54. You get today's laugh-out-loud award.

And I mean that in a good way. :D

[Julien Sorel]

39. I'm still waiting for these devastating bombshells you said

you had several months ago. I also recall some rather interesting comments about 'asking Clinton' what a bad human being Clark is.

Ever since, all I've seen are these worked-up posts screaming about hijacking, containing no substance.

[JasonBerry]

64. Then you're not paying attention

If you think these things AREN'T coming out - you've been under a rock. It's just that you have chosen to not pay them any attention. My guess is the next couple of things might turn your head - IF you are a Democrat, and I have no reason to think you're not. I stand by my belief that Bill and Hillary Clinton have no use at all for Clark - except maybe as a stalking horse. Clinton did not like Clark after the Yugoslav war - Clark was a publicity hog who spent more time worrying about HIS image than anything else. For one, Clark told Clinton and Cohen that the air war would force a Serb withdrawal from Kosovo within days - a week at most. It took 70+ days of bombing the people of Serbia. If you learned anything about Clinton during his presidency, surely it was that he says what he says at any given time with one motive in mind: promoting what's best for Bill Clinton.

[sandnsea]

52. This is true

But he did seem awfully comfortable with his positions. And one might consider that a big part of the military is taking care of the troops and their families. In that sense, he actually has had alot of experience on domestic issues because military families is one big domestic issue condensed into a cohesive group. He has had to deal with child care, health care, education, domestic violence, mental health, environment, retirement, and every other issue facing us today. And the military has actually had some fairly decent results. Their child care program is reported to be excellent and they had to take it seriously because they had to take women's opportunities in the military seriously. So I'm not ready to just write him off, but I'm sure not totally sold on him either. It's just all a bit too sudden and convenient for my taste.

[jonnyblitz]

18. yup it is possible. I never thought Dean was overly progressive. n/t

[FubarFly]

21. It's an interesting topic.

Currently Clark is talking the talk. I watched the town meeting and I have to say, I was impressed.

But his record belies his speech. If Clark had a history of advancing progressive causes, then I would agree with you. In fact, the more progressive things I find out about Clark's past the happier I will be.
This is why it so important to get accurate information on Clark, and why I get so frustrated when people try to stiffle discussion about his past.

I am a skeptic by nature, so I need more than just his words to go by.

[Eloriel]

24. I don't know. I do know is he sure did borrow a lot of ideas from Dean

And it makes me sick. How CONVENIENT to be "friendly" with someone whose ideas and platforms you steal.

Eloriel

[JasonBerry]

27. Par for the course

His getting chummy with Dean was totally opportunistic. Wesley Clark is nothing if not the master of opportunism. Actually, his stealing so much of the Dean program is CLASSIC WESLEY CLARK.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

30. Takes Two To Tango

And last I checked, Dean borrowed a lot of his foreign policy views from Clark.

Clark seems to be taking several ideas from BOTH Dean and Kerry, and then putting his own touch on them. That's what happens when you're the last to declare, others have already expressed positions similar to yours.

I don't think most Democratic voters care that much, as long as the positions expressed are good ones, which they are, in Clark's case.

Finally, considering how Dean and Clark are pretty tight, I'm not going to worry about this meme until one of THEM actually brings it up as an issue.

DTH

[tokenlib]

32. Perhaps "share" might be a better word

They may share positions--but I don't think "steal" is quite the word.
Hopefully they have a "mutually beneficial" relationship where they have had some productive dialogue.

[eileen_d]

33. This "stealing" argument makes no sense to me.

Are progressive ideas copyrighted? Is Dean the only candidate allowed to have progressive ideas, and once he states them in his campaign, they are off limits to all others?

God forbid we have multiple candidates who agree on issues. :eyes:

[Donna Zen]

42. In his own words:

"...work to bring out the best in people you have. Make them achieve more than they ever thought possible, but never forget that they are also human beings. Look after the families, and deal with the whole person...It was a pattern I applied successfully again and again. But I slowly realized that I was going against the Army tide of the time, which emphasized older commanders and de-emphasized education and broadening experiences. It was a time of the "country-boy" and "jes' plain soldierin'."

FWIW, I moved Clark into my top 3-4 possible considerations because I found his views very progressive. Of course the information was culled from speeches and personal inquiry since he hadn't spoken on the record about many things. Also, life being stranger than fiction, I noticed the name of an old friend listed in the credits of his book. Thank the goddess, for it is her input that often keeps me centered when the products of strange and twisted logic seek to counter the man in front of us. Yes, he is very progressive.

[FubarFly]

44. I' ve read some pretty scathing reviews of his book.

You say he is progressive. Tell what he has done which is progressive.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

67. kick for an answer.

Shouldn't be too hard to furnish.

:kick:

[elfin]

46. He's a convert

They can be the most enthusiastic members of whatever they have switched to - be it religion, Atkins Diet - or eve political parties.

[poskonig]

48. Clark has old Kerry people running his campaign.

Hence, expect him to sound a lot like Kerry as the campaign progresses.

[Classical_Liberal]

55. I believe Dean will be more progressive than his resume

primarily because of the people on Dean's campaign are more progressive than Deans resume.

Well Clark is the opposite.

I believe that the staff a candidate chooses is everybit as important as what the Candidate says.

Look at Bush and the neocons. He campaigned antineocon, but hired neocons so he became neocon.

[Donna Zen]

56. Bush's team

has been with him forever.

[bowens43]

60. All we have are his words

thats not enough.

[im4edwards]

65. with no track record, how would you ever know ?

Talk is cheap and it can easily be argued that he has spoken out of both sides of his mouth.

Just too much unknowable about Clark to me.