How many abortions is too many?

[hexola]

How many abortions can a woman have before she might start to be judged negatively by her peers?

2? 3? 4? 5 Abortions...

I knew a gal in college who had 4 before she graduated. It was as if she was content to use abortion as birth control. Is this considerered a legit way to use abortion?

Is there some point where someone might morally draw the line? (not legally) Have doctors ever refused to give abortions to patients they have seen too many times?

I guess the core answer is - since it's a personal matter - the only one who needs to know the score is the woman and it shouldn't matter to the rest of the world.

Its been a long time since college and I've kind of forgotten how hardcore the support for abortion is among younger college age women and feminists.

Just to be clear - im refering to judging the person - not the wrong or right of abortion.

I know some of my remarks may have been offensive on the other thread. Sorry. Been awhile since I've thought about this issue. I have to say - Im pretty sure I feel different about in today as a 39 year old than I did when I was 19.

[JanMichael]

1. 15.

No, wait, 31!

Shit I need a numerology book or something because I just can't come up with an arbitrary number.

All I know is that "0" ain't it.

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[iwillalwayswonderwhy]

4. You beat me by about a second

right on.

[ThomWV]

6. I Should Have Been Nicer

How about this:

If its your wife its your business but not mine
If its your mother its your business but probably not mine
If its your daughter its your business and maybe mine too
If its any other woman on earth we both leave her alone.

[RPM]

86. Amen!!!

as many as that woman needs to live her life the way she wants.

Now - i will go back to minding my own business and playing my Grand Theft Auto.

[fujiyama]

96. I was goin to say the same thing

Who gives a fuck?

Someone's medical history is his OR her's own goddamn business and is private.

[zippy890]

103. ABOLUTELY RIGHT

'nuff said

[iwillalwayswonderwhy]

3. None of your business

is the correct answer.

[Mass]

5. None of your damned business.

This said, the problem is that bringing these isolated cases is exactly what the christian conservatives want to justify abortion restrictions.

It is all about showing that women are not responsible and cannot make their own choices, because, who knowxs, they could abuse it. I am sorry, I may have known an irresponsible teenager behaving the way you describe and I may think now she needed to have been more educated on her responsibilities, but are you going to prevent 19 year old boys to drive because some behave totally irresponsibly when they drive.

[southernleftylady]

7. None of your business

[hexola]

10. Ok none of my business, but...

This gal had no compuction about talking about this. It would come up as just a conversation...like it normal to talk/joke about. She made it other peoples business. Are the people around her just supposed knod in agreement and slap her on the back..."atta girl!" Or not suggest "uhhh...ya might want to be a bit more careful..."???

Again - not suggesting any legal monitoring/counting. Just the social side...

[cornermouse]

11. For what purpose?

Do you want to turn her into a pariah?

[southernleftylady]

12. unless you are paying her bills... its none of your bus. and you should

just have ignored her or say you don't wish to discuss that with her...

[iwillalwayswonderwhy]

17. I would suggest that you

don't have 4 abortions or use abortion as birth control if you feel it is wrong. I suggest you not hang out with a person that you feel does not match your moral code. There is absolutely nothing wrong with telling a friend that you believe she is hurting herself. What do you suggest you would advise this woman, gee, Suzy, you've had three abortions, you are obviously not learning your lesson here, I think you should carry this pregnancy to term so it will sink in.

[Athame]

155. You get to the important point with this question.

I agree with all of the posters who say it is none of our business. However, I also believe that a woman who has a number of abortions is certainly not ready to be a parent, and she knows it on some level.

Another point that should be obvious. This is an exceptional example. While it would be easily possible over the course of twenty or so childbearing years to have a few unplanned, unwanted pregnancies, it is still a difficult process to have an abortion, emotionally, financially, and socially. Very few women actually use abortion as birth control, but for those who do, I am GLAD it is available to them!

[blondeatlast]

19. Your best response would have been"I feel uncomfortable discussing

this."

The problem was hers, not yours--and definitely not ours.

[zanne]

47. But you're not "judging", right?

Just because you SAY it's "none of my business, but" doesn't get you off the hook. That's like saying "you're ugly, but no offense". Know what I mean? You just can't have it both ways.

[blondeatlast]

59. Didja notice--"It's none of my business, BUT..."

He had to take it to a politically savvy and very lively message board. :eyes:

[question everything]

213. The alternative, I suppose, would be birth control pills

but her pharmacist won't allow that, either, so what is she supposed to do?

Bottom line, when you start playing with other people's lives, there is no end to it.

This is why it is called a right for privacy.

Funny thing, of course, is that the Republicans always stood for leaving people alone. Reagan won by wanting to have "government off people's back." And now it is us who stand for such a basic principle.

[TankLV]

237. You agree it's none of your business, then insert a "but".

which negates all of the items immediately preceding it.

So this makes your entire post bullshit.

You've already made it your business, and you continue to make it your business, in spite of your bullshit protestations to the contrary, with that wonderful little "but".

You should have stopped after "it's none of my business". Period. Because it is "none of your business". Period.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

255. I always use the word "gal"

when I'm doing a parody of my idiot namesake.
Hint, hint. Clue, clue. Hard to hide when you're
not even aware of what it is you're trying to hide.

[cornermouse]

8. "Is there some point where someone might morally draw the line?"

Isn't choosing one's own morals called "free will"?

I'm not in the business of choosing suitable morals for other people. It's not my place to judge them.

[Must_B_Free]

9. "You Never ask a Navy man if he'll have another drink,

because it's nobody's god damn business how many drinks he's had already, right!"

[Judi Lynn]

13. Learning self-control rather than trying to control others is a life-long

struggle and duty.

Surely you know by now it's wrong to bear unnatural curiosity about other people's private lives.

If you're living conscientiously, and treating others with respect you're on the right path. You're going to have to trust them to take care of their own lives.

[Poppyseedman]

14. I think using abortions as birth control as fall back strategy

rather than be proactive with more conventional methods would led me to judge someone pretty negatively

Whether or not abortion is right or wrong is not the question, letting yourself be put into a position where an abortion is the preferred method of birth control as an after thought is stupid, lazy, medically irresponsible and just plain wrong

[southernleftylady]

16. i cant imagine doing this because

first the cost then the pain...
what $300 for an abortion or what 3 dollars for condoms??

i think that there are bigger issues at hand in these situations going on than just pure laziness kwim?

[blondeatlast]

22. Exactly. We don't even know if she was telling the truth. nt

[iwillalwayswonderwhy]

24. Then it is your duty

NOT to use abortion as birth control, PoppyseedMAN.

[Poppyseedman]

34. As a poppyseed........MAN

It has always been my position to use birth control. It is my responsibility not to procreate on a whim.

My four boys and two girls have been taught this lesson from early in their teens years.

After all, we carry part of the financial burden of raising a child with whomever we decide to procreate with.

[iwillalwayswonderwhy]

46. Six children?

And you use birth control? The mind staggers at the number of offspring you'd have if you hadn't used birth control. But that's neither here nor there nor any of my business, it's just very curious.

My point about your man-ness has to do with your judgement of others in a position to which you'll NEVER find yourself.

[Poppyseedman]

72. Yes, six children, all wanted and cared for.

All with one women. Is that a problem? If it is, see post # 41

As for my man-ness, Gender has nothing to do with judging people negatively if they do stupid things like have sexual intercourse without thinking of the consequences of getting pregnant or drinking to much and kill someone while driving or shooting drugs in your arm and wonder why you have addiction problem

It's very myopic and baseless to think judging someones actions is not valid because I can't get pregnant. I certainly will be held responsible financially for 21 years if I am part of the consequences regardless whether or not I gave birth.

Stupidity is not gender based.

[iwillalwayswonderwhy]

83. Unless you are on a jury

I think judging someones actions when the actions are legal is not valid. Period.

[Poppyseedman]

147. So if your best friend gets fall down drunk eveynight

your judgement that it is stupid thing to do would be not valid.

It is legal to get drunk everynight.

[iwillalwayswonderwhy]

158. Judging someone stupid that is your friend

doesn't help them a bit, does it?

[Poppyseedman]

163. Letting then continue with their destructive behavior doesn't either

"You know who your friends are because they stab you in the front rather than in the back"

True friends hold each other accountable for their actions or behavior.

[iwillalwayswonderwhy]

241. So do you force your friend to quit drinking?

Or drop him as a friend if he doesn't?

Neither. Right? Because he is your friend, you do what you can to help him without...wait for it...JUDGEMENT.

[iwillalwayswonderwhy]

94. And did you MISS this sentence?

"But that's neither here nor there nor any of my business, it's just very curious."

[iwillalwayswonderwhy]

97. And you are comparing a legal procedure to

"drinking to much and kill someone while driving or shooting drugs in your arm and wonder why you have addiction problem"

Wow.

[Poppyseedman]

141. No, the point in my response was

Am I judging as a male, for someone getting an abortion as first line of birth control rather than use common sense and use some sort of birth control before you get pregnant.

My answer was I am judging them to be doing stupid behavior as to "drinking to much and kill someone while driving or shooting drugs in your arm and wonder why you have addiction problem"

Using abortions as a first line strategy for birth control is stupid

[iwillalwayswonderwhy]

162. Most women do not do that

"Using abortions as a first line strategy for birth control is stupid."

And to those that do, what is your point? As I said somewhere else, what do you want to do? Stone her?

[Poppyseedman]

168. The original point in the thread was

"How many abortions can a woman have before she might start to be judged negatively by her peers?"

Anybody who uses abortion as a "first line strategy for birth control" needs help.

No' I would not stone them, probably try to help them change their behavior

[noiretextatique]

251. RU486

with that, they probably wouldn't need your behavior modification assistance. but you might want to try it with her partner(s).

[TankLV]

242. And if you allow gays to marry, then you'll allow child sex, animal sex,

and polylgamy!

Boy he plays the game well!

[TankLV]

239. For YOU that is. It's none of YOUR business what OTHER women do.

Period.

[Swamp Rat]

15. Uh oh!

:D

[sweetheart]

18. 42 is the answer

How many war crimes is too many?

42?

How many nuclear bombs is too many?

42?

How many dead bodies rotting in your cellar is too many?

42?

How many elections will the public accept voting fraud?

42?

There is no moral line except when there is one.

[supernova]

20. Here we go again...

You cannot decide for another person what they should and shouldn't do.

If this woman is your friend or a member of the family, then you might want to engage her in a dialog, but not judge her, on why she thinks abortion is better than using birth control.

Having said that. this miniscule number of women who have repeated abortions are being used as a tool to flog the rest of us into accepting ever increasing restrictions on our reproductive freedom.

Don't cop to it.

I say "miniscule" because frankly, I've never met one, nor do I know anyone who has every met one who did this. And you can't use a minute number of people as the reason to legislate for an entire gender.

[southernleftylady]

21. are you prochoice? nt

[hexola]

25. Trying to figure that out...

I like to think of myself as "prolegal"...

I guess prochoice...but I favor the other choice...'specially among younger people. Like if someone asked me...I would probably favor having the child to aborting it.

Again - I think there are tons of legit reasons to have an abortion -

I think I'm letting "situational ethics" get to me...

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[hexola]

44. oh really...I was wondering if I made it up...

Lib/Dem all the way...nice Larry David Icon..

[southernleftylady]

27. well being pro choice is just that.. pro CHOICE NOT pro abortion..

i was raped and got preggo.. would you try to tell me to not have an abortion in that case?

you don't have to be pro abortion just see that its not up to you to make that choice for a woman.. and thus.. pro choice...
if it becomes illegal besides 'in case of rape" how many rapes go unreported?
so how would you prove that the woman was raped?


just keep it legal.. and the ones who are against it.. don't have one :)
good luck soul searching

[hexola]

35. It's supposed to be...yes.

And - yes, if you were my friend or daughter...I would want you to have the abortion.

I guess I see the prochoice concept as providing some "path of rationale" for younger people to be irresponsible.

Another thing I worry about is the tendency of society to portray having children as something negative....something with "consequences," or that will "screw up your life..." I wonder if younger people end up taking those attitudes into adulthood...?

[southernleftylady]

36. so do you want them to be illegal? nt

[hexola]

37. ??what illegal...

Whats "them?"

[southernleftylady]

38. nevermind ..

i saw your answer.... (sorry newborn has kept me awake too much ;) )

[Misunderestimator]

45. So you have been here for years and you could have read the thousands

upon thousands of posts about women's and men's experiences with abortion (many of which were posted just this week)... and you STILL think that young women would use abortion as a "path of rationale to be irresponsible?"

Perhaps some day you should go with someone to an abortion clinic so you can get it in your head how UNLIKELY it would be that anyone would make that choice lightly.

But I doubt that you are really looking for any answers here.

[hexola]

49. Not just young women...

Men are not immune from this rationalization either...!!!

I think the person I knew was a living example of a person who "used abortion as a "path of rationale to be irresponsible?"

She would come right out and say it...

[Misunderestimator]

52. One person... Because you perceive this one person as irresponsible...

everyone else who has an abortion is also irresponsible.

MY point, which you ignored, is that there are THOUSANDS of posts right here on this site, many this week (easy to search and find) which give you a first-person perspective of men's and women's experiences with abortion.

It would do you good to read them, instead of posting idiotic questions like "How many abortions is too many."

[blondeatlast]

61. "It's none of my business, BUT..." your friend is a nutcase.

Was she even telling the truth, and if you think she was--how the hell do you know?

[Phentex]

87. She was an extreme and you want to believe that she

is an example for many others? Your logic fails.

[blondeatlast]

60. Are you M/F? In a loving commitment with someone?

Is there a reason your friend's situation is any of DU's business?

Just curious.

[blondeatlast]

79. News flash: kids are irresponsible.

They make poor decisions and they need reasonable ways to deal with those poor decisions.

Having children at a young age severely limits the CHILD'S opportunity to continue schooling, find quality work, serve their country. This in turn hurts the child of the child. The children in those situations are likely to continue their families in poverty and hopelessness.

[noiretextatique]

236. people are irresponsible, not just kids eom

[noiretextatique]

203. it's not prochoice that makes younger people irresponsible

the same folks who oppose choice also oppose sex education. it's IGNORANCE about sex, birth control, and parenthood that makes young people irresponsible.

[HockeyMom]

23. Between the woman and her doctor

I would assume that at some point it would have to affect her health. Just has having baby after baby after baby would eventually affect the woman's health too.

But it shouldn't be up to the government or anybody else to decide. Both of these decisions should be left up to the woman and her doctor based on the individual woman's medical history. The moral question is nobody else's business but the woman's.

I am 56. My opinion on this has never changed.

[Orangepeel]

28. it's your right to judge your peers negatively

you are perfectly free to view someone else in a negative light based on whatever the hell you want, including the number of abortions she has had (or women he has slept with have had). You have the right to judge people negatively because you don't like their shoes, or because they are too fat, or because they don't floss enough or whatever.

Just don't start legislating it.

(although, why a woman's peers should know how many abortions she has had is another issue).

[Phentex]

29. How many children can a woman have before she might start to be judged...

negatively by her peers?

Take same woman. What if she kept them all?

What if she had four before she graduated? What if she was content to just keep having children?

[Poppyseedman]

41. Interesting point. She would be judged rather harshly

from personal experience, I can tell you she would be judged rather harshly

My wife and I have six children. I cannot tell you the number of times people have been extremely rude and mean spirited when we used to go out in public as a group.

Some of the comments would be unbelievable.

I got to the point when someone asked why we had so many children in a very condescending way.

I would say "you know, you are absolutely right, six children are far to many, YOU choose which ones to kill right now and get us down to your personally preference on the correct number of children we should raise"

That shut them up rather quick.

As a side note, I have never taken a thin dime from any government, not even free lunches for my kids when we were eligible.

[iwillalwayswonderwhy]

92. Are you suggesting

"As a side note, I have never taken a thin dime from any government, not even free lunches for my kids when we were eligible."

That a woman with six children that needs government help is not as good as you and your brood? That really smells.

[Poppyseedman]

159. No, not at all. Put your nose pin away

That's the role of the government to help people who can't get help or find themselves in a bad situation.

I know lots of women never for a moment thought they would wind up on welfare, but because of pond scum husbands who left them, they have no choice. I know very well, my mother was one.

My point was, which I didn't really make clear was:

Many times my wife and I would be accused of being on the government dole because we had six children. They would assume we were irresponsible for having six kids.

It used to piss me off royally.

[iwillalwayswonderwhy]

167. What's a nose pin?

"Many times my wife and I would be accused of being on the government dole because we had six children. They would assume we were irresponsible for having six kids."

That was none of their business either. But the fact that just the perception by some of your family being on the dole pissed you off royally is very telling.

[Poppyseedman]

171. A nose pin is a clothes line pin to stop the smell

You said my post smelled.

My family was very supportive of my wife and I.

I was referring to "other" people who had no damn business telling me that they thought of my family being large

What's so telling???

[iwillalwayswonderwhy]

211. Your answer should have been

It's none of your damn business.

not

My family has never been on the dole, not even free lunch programs.

[noiretextatique]

252. yet, rather curiously

you seem to be rather judgemental...

[hexola]

43. I think she might subject to the same judgement...

Like..."be more careful" etc...abortion or not.

And if she had 4 and still graduated...she should get some sort of a medal!

On the flipside - I would say that a woman with six children has more moral clout than anyone when it comes to making a decision on the 7th!

[Name removed]

74. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[noiretextatique]

249. a breakthrough, of sorts...but

i would say a woman has more moral clout than anyone when it comes to making her own decisions...period.

[Horse with no Name]

30. I think most women can safely say

they would change their minds at 39 from what they did at 19.
It's called experience, the school of hard knocks, growing up--call it whatever you want.
Sounds to me like your friend was in need of attention, and perhaps some couseling if she chose to continually talk about her abortions.
However--even with 20 years of perspective under my belt, it's still not my place to judge someone for doing something that is perfectly legal.
If it were my friend--we'd have had a long discussion regarding the reasons she had repeated abortions and the long-term effect it could have on her mental and physical health, however, I wouldn't sit in judgement of her, and at the end of the day, I'd have driven her to have the 5th abortion if it came down to it.
Last time I tried to walk on water, I didn't make it past the first step and if I had continued, I probably would have drowned.
I guess I picked the wrong day to pretend I was perfect.:shrug:

[hexola]

40. Yes - she could be somewhat flip about it...

I won't repeat some of her slang...but at the time, I considered her nearly a sociopath...

Its not so much that Im judging her - but perhaps, I'm letting that experience color my opinion too much...

[cornermouse]

48. ...sociopath... Interesting choice of words.

[hexola]

50. I thought about that,....couched with "nearly" (nt)

[cornermouse]

53. Bottom line.

If you're not God, its NONE of your business.

[blondeatlast]

62. "consdiered her nearly a sociopath." How do you know she was telling

the truth?

And could your opinion have already been affected by the fact that you considered her nearly a sociopath?

She colored your perspective of every woman that has ever aborted, ever?!

[Ariana Celeste]

118. Perhaps she wasn't/isn't nearly a sociopath.

Perhaps her decision affected her and she felt a need to feel normal. Perhaps she needed attention. Perhaps she needed *support*. Maybe even a little bit of love.

Certainly she wasn't looking for judgement. And I hate to say, but that is exactly what you are doing in this thread,

[noamnety]

31. The answer depends on who her "peers" are

If they are the sort of people that believe my family planning is their business, then most likely one abortion will be enough for them to be judgmental.

If they believe that my family planning is not their business, then it wouldn't be an issue to them at all - and certainly my uterus wouldn't be something they'd still be fretting about 15 years later.

So I can't answer your question directly, but I can tell you which of those two groups I'd rather be friends with.

[SoCalDem]

32. Doesn't matter.. It should be NONE of our 'business"

No one is 'entitled' to know about my reproductive system functions unless I choose to tell them.

If a woman sees a doctor, and the procedure is legal and possible, that should be between her and her doctor.Obviously if she presents for a 5th abortion in 6 months, he would be obligated to counsel her and offer a solution, but even in that extreme case, it should be no one else's business..

Of course a wife "should" tell her husband of her plans and get his input, but she SHOULD have the right to NOT tell. There are certainly cases where an additional child might tie her to an abusive man, and to force childbearing in that case is a disservice to her and the prospective child.

But I digress..

Abortion should be a PERSONAL matter between a woman, her conscience and the doctor. THE END.

I should never know, and have NO need to know if nay other woman has or does not have an abortion,. It's none of my business..

Doctors should have the right to do or not do abortions (if their extreme religiosity demands ), BUT if they are on the payroll of a publicly funded clinic or hospital, they should be required to do them and it should be a part of their hiring contract. They are not forced to work there.

[laura888]

33. It takes 2 to cause a pregnancy

And shit happens.

Do you morally judge a man when his condom breaks?

[Bunny]

39. Judge people any fucking way you want to.

What is this shit doing on a progressive board?

[Kathy in Cambridge]

42. Incredible, isn't it?

:eyes:

[msongs]

82. one, as long as its you and not me :-)

[mondo joe]

51. How many is too many is up to each woman to decide for herself

and none of your business.

[noamnety]

54. Reasons people judge women

1. They are virgins. (Undatable. Probably lesbian. Or a fundie.)
2. They are lesbians.
3. They've had sex outside of marriage. (slut)
4. They're waiting til marriage to have sex (fundie, tease, frigid, prude)
5. They've used birth control.
6. They haven't used birth control.
7. They had an abortion.
8. They found out a fetus was deformed and had an abortion.
9. They found out a fetus was deformed and decided not to have an abortion.
10. They decided to have children (irresponsible, don't they know about overpopulation?!)
11. They are rich and had children (soccer mom!)
12. They are poor and had children (welfare mom!)
13. They had children and worked (abandoned the children!)
14. They had children and stayed home to raise them. (anti-feminist!)
15. They decided not to have children (against God's will, not carrying on the family name)
16. They couldn't have children naturally, so they opted for "in vitro" (Murderer! What about the poor leftover embryos?! You should adopt!)
17. You adopted - but the children are a different race (you'll give them a complex!)
18. You adopted - and the kids are the same race (the kids are "too white" - sound familiar?)


That's the great thing about my uterus. No matter what it's doing - even when it does nothing at all, it manages to offend someone.

[jonnyblitz]

57. great post!

:thumbsup:

[blondeatlast]

63. Excellent. That post ought to be a greatest by itself! nt

[cornermouse]

68. I'm waiting for the resurrection of the word bastard.

Because I think its also on its way back.

[Horse with no Name]

100. But luckily other countries are more progressive

Didn't Italy (or France)--can't remember which one--just eliminate the term legitimate and illegitimate from their legal vocabulary whilst speaking of children?
However, in this country, bastard is probably on it's way back. Everything else is sliding backward.

[cornermouse]

143. They better not say it in my vicinity, because that is something

that I will not let pass. :nuke:

[blondeatlast]

124. Things that make you go "hmmm..." I wouldn't be surprised. nt

[raccoon]

75. great post, especially

"3. They've had sex outside of marriage. (slut)
4. They're waiting til marriage to have sex (fundie, tease)"

I would add to that last one (#4)--some would say,
"frigid and/or has a sex hang-up."

Regarding sex, women are damned if they do, damned if they don't.

[noamnety]

78. Good point, I'm adding that in (nt)

[catzies]

101. That's great! You hit several nails right on the head. Wow, I guess my

uterus has a lot of 'splainin to do. :D

[gollygee]

136. I wish I could recommend a reply for the greatest page!

because that was FABULOUS!

[GinaMaria]

157. You need to put this in print somewhere.

Genius, and it truly paints a picture of what this is all about.

[Mandate My Ass]

55. This is offensive. You're very judgmental. You say you're pro-choice

but your "permission" for abortion comes with a price tag. You want the woman to suffer for making her choice.

All the misogynists I know say the same thing, "I knew this girl once who....." and the rest of the female gender has to constantly assure you they're not like that. :eyes:

[Misunderestimator]

70. Exactly! Comparing one (likely fictional) girl in his past...

unlike anyone any of us has EVER met or even heard of... then throwing his judgment of her like a moldy blanket over the entire gender.

(And we're all suckers enough to fall for it and keep defending ourselves... :eyes:)

[Mandate My Ass]

73. I doubted the existence of this girl too

but hey, call me a skeptic. It's a stunningly incomprehensible rationale that someone who's so irresponsible that she can't remember to take precautions when she has sex, should now start having and raising babies. She'd make a great mom. :eyes:

The other thing about it is, the statement "I knew a girl once who____" the blank is always about her loose sexuality.

[MsTryska]

114. well don't be too quick to judge that this person is imaginary.....

i know a similar girl. went to the clinic with her too on a couple of occassions.


they are out there.

[Misunderestimator]

119. That's why I said "likely"... Sure anomalies exist everywhere...

But conveniently trotting one out so that you can try to make a moral case against something that VERY FEW women do, makes me suspect that this particular one is fictional.

[MsTryska]

138. well you don't know that that what they're doing is lying....

considering, as i said, that i knew soemone like this too - i've asked myself the same question.


for the life of me i can't answer it, but i do know when my friend finally decided to keep a baby she was carrying, she wound up having a tough pregnancy, and was on bedrest from her fifth month on, due to an incompetent cervix.


I can't say that the incompetent cervix was caused by the number of abortions, but from a medical perspective - how many is too many?


She did wind up having a beautiful little son tho.

[Misunderestimator]

146. My point is that whether the person exists or not, this argument is being

used as a weapon against choice. The OP is not really concerned about whether too many abortions is medically unsafe. He's only interested in trying to convince people that it is morally wrong.

[MsTryska]

154. that, i can get with

and it's not cool.

[Zynx]

56. Someone who has had that many abortions is clearly being irresponsible.

That she would be in situations that would produce an outcome that many times to prompt her to have abortions proves irresponsibility and I do not look kindly upon irresponsible people.

[cornermouse]

58. You don't even know this person exists.

[blondeatlast]

64. Or told the truth if they do. nt

[iwillalwayswonderwhy]

65. So what? Shall we stone her?

Can YOU pick up that first stone?

[Lars39]

66. "Situations that would produce an outcome"

You mean S-E-X, right?

[Misunderestimator]

71. Judge much?

I tend to assume outlandish stories like this are just there to make people say things like you just said.

[RandomKoolzip]

67. Dude, gettin' abortions is fun!

Chicks just loooove gettin' abortions! It's like waterslides: once you go down your first waterslide, next thing you know, you're goin' to Six Flags every weekend!

I ain't a woman, but I've known a couple, and lemme tell ya: AIN'T NOTHING in this world to compare with the feeling of getting a fetus removed! Pure exhiliration!

[demgurl]

69. I have had an abortion.

I have only had one to date and I do not anticipate having any more since, after my last child was born, the doctor said everything was fixed so that I have no worries.

I think hexola brings up a great question. The way I read it is, "People judge those who have had a number of abortions that they find unacceptable, why?" This is a great question hexola. It comes down to why I originally posted my abortion story when there was a huge controversy over Planned Parenthood t-shirts that say "I've had an abortion". I had to tell my story because one of the things PP was trying to do is take away the stigma attached to this procedure. Take away the stigma and you have a lot more people who are accepting of this legal procedure.

I come out and I say I have had this done because legally it is the same as me saying I drive 35 mph in a 35 mph speed zone. No difference at all. It is the same as me going into a bar and legally ordering five drinks or going to an abortion doctor and legally ordering five abortions.

We all need to work on getting past this in our own minds and in society. We all need to take away that stigma.

[Ariana Celeste]

76. I think that's relative to the person.

First like most said, none of our business. Other than that, while some may frown at a person for having what they judge to be too many, we shouldn't even be thinking about that. We should be focused on making sure people are allowed to if they need/want to.

As for myself, I see no moral value in abortion. It's a clump of cells. I would never a judge a person for how many abortions they have had- their life, their choice.

[kahleefornia]

77. How many melanomas removed

before you judge someone for too much sun exposure? They are also rapidly growing balls of cellular material.

Too many important things to deal with to go around making individual judgements on people about what they should or shouldn't be doing. Especially when their actions impact no one but themselves.

[Lars39]

80. Welcome to DU, kahleefornia !!!

:toast:

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

81. It's none of your business, nor my business. n/t

[cynatnite]

84. We each draw the line at what WE deem is moral and immoral

It's never the same for everyone. What I deem appropriate and not appropriate will be completely different than someone else. Having said that, I don't think it's right to judge the person.

We each have to live with the decisions we make and respect those of others as long as they don't intentionally hurt anyone else. We may not like the decisions of others, but it in no way gives us the right to pass judgement on them.

Now, onto your questions. I do think at some point too many abortions can be harmful for some women. It would depend on a variety of factors such as their reproductive health for one thing.

I'm not sure how many is too many. One was too many for me, but it was the only option left to me. If a woman told me she had six, I might think to myself that it's too many, but I'm not her and I haven't walked in her shoes. I probably would wonder if she is using abortion as a means of birth control or just really dumb in that regard.

I heard of a girl who went more than once to a doctor for an abortion and he refused to do anymore. I don't know the details so I can't say whether it was for health or the doctor's moral reasons for refusing. I'm not even sure how true the story is since it came from someone who heard from someone else and so on.

This is such a personal matter for women that it's difficult to try and read into the reasons why a woman would have an abortion let alone several. We can only begin to speculate, but we're looking through our own moral lenses when we do it.

[Logansquare]

85. This isn't an issue about the legal right to abortion

It's a genuine health issue, and should be treated as such. If I were an abortion provider,
I would also want to provide access to contraceptive counseling as well as information about sexually transmitted diseases. A woman who has several abortions *is not* in control of her body, she is giving it over to the men who are impregnating her. She could also get AIDS, because she is clearly not using protection. One or even two abortions could be accidents, such as broken condoms or a poorly fitting diaphragm, but four? Even after the first time, an abortion provider should offer some help before she permanently ruins her health and ability to have planned pregnancies. They should, however, still do the procedure.

When I was very young, I had unprotected sex while drunk, and also I was very timid about insisting on protection. I missed my period, and went to Planned Parenthood. They gave me a pregnancy test, which was negative (thank God), and a wonderful nurse practioner had a long talk with me about contraception and sexually transmitted diseases. She emphasized that I had the right to stop sexual contact immediately if a man refused to wear a condom. I give a donation to them every year--they are angels of mercy.

[MsTryska]

Thank you!

you've done an excellent job of getting to the heart of the matter....

[Desertrose]

88. if thats how you judge a woman, glad I'm not in your circle of friends

seriously...as many posters have already commented...its none of your business....... and who are you to judge anyone else anyway??


Of course you are entitled to your opinion...and the rest of us are entitled to ignore it...

[Liberty2001]

99. And yet ...

You just judged Hexola.

You determined that you did not want to be in his circle of friends.

Why?

Because he sees a moral quandry in what the girl was doing? In her cavalier attitude towards abortion?

Turn it around ... who are you to suggest that he shouldn't judge the moral qualities of others.

I'm quite sure that you (and others who have expressed the same sentiment as you) do it all the time.

I do it.

My neighbors do it.

Everybody does it.

This "you can't judge anyone" attitude is, frankly, bullshit.

We are always judging others.

Those who say you can't judge others are really saying "I don't like that you disagree with me and feel uncomfortable in you telling me that you disagree with me." In other words, that statement tells me that the person can't handle debate or criticism about their positions or actions.

[blondeatlast]

104. WE DON'T EVEN KNOW IF THE "GIRL" EXISTS.

Even Hexola called this so-called WOMAN a sociopath (no one else did--he/she did), so if she does exist, how do we know she's telling the truth?

But I am calling bullshit when I see bullshit. The OP was BS, and it's gone downhill from there.

[Liberty2001]

108. Hexola says he/she knew a girl who had four abortions ...

Are you choosing to question his/her veracity because its easier to disbelieve that a woman would ever do something like that?

Are you uncomfortable with the moral implications and just would rather believe that it didn't happen so you can ignore it?

[blondeatlast]

115. No, I'm disbelieing the indefinite "her" veracity because OP said

upthread he considered her a sociopath.

Somehow you missed that very cogent point.

[cynatnite]

144. Why are you questioning if the person exists?

People talk about people they know or come across here at DU all the time. Rarely have I ever seen anyone accused of making them up...in fact I don't think I ever have until now.

There have been times I've questioned the veracity of some experiences by some posters at DU, but I didn't feel it would have been correct of me to assume they were lying to get their point across.

[Desertrose]

246. Good grief....

Quite a jump in logic in your post....all I said was I don't think anyone (myself included) has the right to judge what is "right" or "wrong" for another person and from that you are saying I judge others and that I can't take debate or criticism? All from one post? wow.


"Turn it around ... who are you to suggest that he shouldn't judge the moral qualities of others.
I'm quite sure that you (and others who have expressed the same sentiment as you) do it all the time."

Excuse me, but that is a REALLY big judgement on your part that I judge the moral values & qualities of others. Wow.

I observe a lot of things, such as your attitude in your post, I am not judging it as to right or wrong or anything else. I just note your attitude. This seems to me to be entirely different that imposing my standards of morality onto you. We all have a right to think our own thoughts and to make up our minds on what we feel is right or wrong ...but only for US, not for anyone else. That was the point I was trying to make. I don't feel that we can judge anyone else's life since we are not walking in their shoes.


"Those who say you can't judge others are really saying "I don't like that you disagree with me and feel uncomfortable in you telling me that you disagree with me." In other words, that statement tells me that the person can't handle debate or criticism about their positions or actions."


Again, speak for yourself but do not speak for me- you have NO IDEA what applies or doesn't apply in my life and this brings me back to the original qustion...who are you to judge me?

Interesting observation that often those who project things onto others may often be dealing with those very things themselves.

DR

[ScreamingMeemie]

89. For me? None. For others? That's your decision.

There is only one person who can judge me and I'll deal with Him later. :hi:

[Liberty2001]

90. Of course the answer is ...

It depends on who is doing the judging.

I think that you would have a right to find the actions of the college girl to be morally reprehensible. As I understand it, she came off as not caring how many abortions she had ... she was using it as "after-the-fact-birth-control". I think a person SHOULD care. Having one abortion tells me that you're not ready for kids, or you don't want any more. Fine, if you don't want a child, take precautions BEFORE you conceive - take the pill, have the guy use a condom, whatever. Say what you want about that little clump of cells ... given the opportunity, that clump, in the normal course of nature, will develop into a child. Having felt that "fetus" move under my girlfriends belly, and having seen the ultrasounds ... well, I guess I tend to view that little clump of cells as something more than a scab on my elbow.

I'm not suggesting that you shouldn't be allowed to have more than one abortion ... I guess I just would tell that girl to use that grey matter she purportedly has between her ears.

A girl told me once about her mother ... her mother was 12, got pregnant and had an abortion, and did it three more times in succession at the ages of 13, 14, and 15, before finally deciding to keep her at age 16. I was appalled. I think a lot of people would be.

[Phentex]

95. well, hell, if we could legislate stupidity, there wouldn't BE any repugs!

:eyes:

[blondeatlast]

105. Repeat: Do we even know this "girl," as you INSIST on referring to her,

exists?

I don't know that the third-person mother in your post exists, either.

[Liberty2001]

122. Oh sheesh ... give it a rest ...

You could say that about ANY story that a person recounts on this board.

How do I know that any story YOU tell actually happened?

I don't.

Nobody does.

Maybe YOU are the consummate liar and make up any and every story you ever would tell on this board.

Maybe EVERY poster is a liar and just makes up every story for the hell of it.

Hell, maybe I lie about everything that ever happened.

How are you going to know just by being on this board.

Why don't you tell me you're real name? ... and I'll tell you what, here's my immediate response when you answer: "You're a liar and I don't believe you."

Is that the proper attitude? Just assume that it is not true?

[blondeatlast]

130. You are insiting that I'm judging the OP. I'm making a valid argument

to his post. If you can't take the heat, you know what to do,

And I'm not the argument here.

This is GD; we fight with the gloves off.

[MsTryska]

128. jesus christ.

who are you to automatically disbelieve girls like this exist?


they do exist. it's embarassing, it's heartbreaking, it's a tragedy but they do.

they've gotta be in the minority tho.

[leesa]

91. Why post this tripe? Why do you wish to judge these women?

[Toucano]

93. 7,294 n/t

[Emendator]

98. Tell her

That should ought to be ashamed of herself. To have four is sick. And you don't need to apologize to her or anyone for having that opinion. Judging her negatively doesn't implicate you in doing something wrong. Why would she even want you to know about this?

[catzies]

102. Wow, judge much? How are things in the perfect world you live in?

Send a postcard to the rest of us...here in reality.

[Emendator]

111. There's no such thing

as perfect. So spare me the bromides about reality, because yours is twisted if four abortions before graduating from college is acceptable. So I will most certainly judge her. It's like she's celebrating the fact.

[blondeatlast]

120. So the indefinite "her" told the truth? Hexola called her a sociopath

upthread, if you'd read through, I don't know how you missed it.

[Name removed]

127. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Emendator]

131. That really ruins my day

being on your ignore list.

[blondeatlast]

133. OMG. you're a comedian, too!

:rofl:

[blondeatlast]

107. How do you know she even exists? Welcome to DU; I think I'll enjoy

having you around...

[Emendator]

125. Well

I guess he's telling the truth. But going just by numbers, there have to be a fair amount of people who are like this person described. I am generally pro-life. But I can see someone making a mistake and getting pregnant and feeling the only option is to abort. But FOUR abortions before graduating from college? That averages out to one for every academic year. How quaint. There comes a point where we can begin to label a person as sick.

Thanks for the compliment. Nice to meet you too.

[cynatnite]

113. We each have our own moral compass

I agree that judging someone who does this negatively does not implicate her or anyone else as being wrong.

Here at DU judging people negatively for actions we disagree with is the norm. It's the norm in society overall.

[Emendator]

139. That's only partly true

We can each have our own moral compass to a certain extent. As long as an action doesn't violate the Golden Rule - treat others as you would have them treat you - the basis of all morality that precedes all religions and cultures.

[noiretextatique]

243. so, you wouldn't mind if i judge you? ok.

how many times have you broken the golden rule?
how many times have you had unprotected sex?

[cynatnite]

106. Should abortion be a form of birth control?

The OP has a good valid question. How many is too many? What are our limits when it comes to something like this? When do we each individually say 'this many is too many'?

Is a person who has more than one, perhaps several, irresponsible? At what point do we as individuals draw a line and say enough is enough?

[Lars39]

112. How many heart bypasses should one be allowed?

You seem to be willing to give up medical privacy very easily.

[cynatnite]

116. I'm willing to give up medial privacy???

How did you come away with that interpretation?

I wondered if abortion should be a form of birth control and I think the OP had a valid question that deserved some good discussion. Looks like we're having it. :)

[Phentex]

117. yes, and how many plastic surgeries? gastric bypass? pregnancies?...

transplants? tatoos? piercings? Shit, the list is endless on how many can be questioned as acceptable.

[Misunderestimator]

121. Who are you to judge? Really. You draw YOUR line... you don't draw mine.

[cynatnite]

123. I just asked some questions on what people thought

sheesh!

Nobody's talking about writing law here.

[Misunderestimator]

129. Saying "Should abortion be a form of birth control" in the title of your..

post tells me that you were pushing an agenda.

[cynatnite]

134. What agenda?????

I asked a question.

Most people here know their own minds and can determine for themselves what they believe in and how they feel. They don't need me or anyone else to do that for them.

It was a valid question I thought deserved some discussion. If you don't like it or think I'm 'pushing' some sort of 'agenda', I don't know what to tell you.

[Misunderestimator]

140. Using phrases like "Should abortion be a form of birth control"

to insinuate that abortion is an immoral choice. That insinuation is used as a reason to limit women's access to abortion... and ultimately to make abortion illegal. Banning abortion is the ultimate "agenda" of this kind of language.

I've seen MANY right-winger, anti-choice people use this phrase.

Are you pro-choice?

[cynatnite]

148. No, I never insinuated anything of the sort

People have abortions for a variety of reasons. Some may view one reason more valid than another. It's just a matter of opinion.

You can search for my posts to determine my stance on abortion if you'd like. I've never made a secret of that here at DU. Check my posts on this thread and I think you'll have your answer quick enough.

[Misunderestimator]

150. I take the answer to be that you are anti-choice then...

'nuff said. :hi:

[cynatnite]

153. Pot...kettle..black

Judging are we. Do you ake what suits you for the moment and discard the rest? I'm guessing you missed the part where I said this thread alone is indicative of my stance on abortion if you took the time to read the posts.

:rofl:

[Misunderestimator]

165. Not judging... just making an assumption... I didn't see your post

where you said you were pro-choice... now I read it... So, really then, why are you parroting the anti-choice people?

[cynatnite]

170. What exactly am I parroting?

I asked a question. Should abortion be a form of birth control?

I don't understand why you view this as some sort of anti-choice question.

Women have abortions for a variety of reasons. I'm asking if this reason is a valid one. That's all.

[Misunderestimator]

176. Because it's an argument THEY use, insinuating that there is such

a huge number of abortions that are done sheerly because the women are too fucking irresponsible to prevent the pregnancies in the first place and blithely consider abortion their form of birth control.

WHO FUCKING CARES how many abortions someone has? If the poster really cared about the medical risks of too many abortions it would be one thing. But this thread and YOUR question turn it into an issue of morality.

It's a perfect weapon to use, because one can easily hide behind the medical risk factor when they use it. So, let's throw that out. Do you judge a woman who "uses abortion as birth control" for any reason other than the potential medical risks she might be subjecting herself to?

[cynatnite]

179. I really wasn't trying to use the RW stance on abortion...

You made some good points, but in the end it does come down to morality. If I knew someone who had several abortions I would question it. Perhaps not to them, but I would come away thinking they are either irresponsible past the point of caring how many times they got pregnant or were completely stupid.

I had one abortion many years ago and to this day I haven't changed my feelings about it. For me, one was too many. I don't expect it to be the case for anyone else.

This is me. I don't expect anyone else to feel the same or even come close to what I believe. My morals are different than a lot of others and I don't expect anyone else to subscribe to them anymore than I to someone elses.

[Lars39]

182. How about maybe their bodies didn't cooperate with the birth control

that was used? Why is the woman automatically branded irresponsible?
Which btw, as evidenced by all the low posters coming out of the woodwork, seems to be the word of the day to push.

[cynatnite]

200. My daughter learned that lesson

She was on an antibiotic while taking birth control and got pregnant. She wasn't made aware that it could happen. She had a little girl as a result. After that, she made sure if she did have to go that route again to use more than one form of birth control. The next baby was by her and her boyfriend's choice.

What do you mean by 'low posters'? Are you insinuating something by the number of a person's post count? If I understand correctly that is against the rules of DU.

[iwillalwayswonderwhy]

228. Should abortion be a form of birth control?

Medically, not advisable, it is a surgery and carries risks that a condom does not. However, a woman has the right to take that risk.

Should skin cancer removal be a form of sunscreen?

[Misunderestimator]

253. Those with skin cancer should be judged for not wearing enough sunscreen.

After all... isn't that AWFULLY irresponsible, knowing the risks for skin cancer? In fact, I think we should make skin cancer treatment less accessible.... you know... what's the phrase?... legal and rare? :rofl:


Most excellent analogy! :thumbsup:

[Phentex]

126. ya gotta love the phrase "we as individuals"

:eyes:

[southernleftylady]

145. When it affects YOU until then leave our bodies alone! nt

[MsTryska]

109. well i don't know the answer to that.....

i can say this tho....i had a friend from school, who used to get pregnant by the wrong guy every spring and get it taken care of.


finally when we were 25 and playing hte same old dynamic, i lost my sh*t and asked her how many more times she was going to repeat the same pattern of not being responsible for herself with some loser.


the next time she got pregnant (2 years later) she actually stayed with the guy and got married and found the church and stuff. Our little conversation damaged our relationship for good tho.

[B Calm]

110. Who in the hell are you to judge anyone? I have always wanted

to say that to a judge, but thankfully I never had the opportunity..

[Solly Mack]

132. How many assholes does it take to screw in a light bulb?

I don't know - it's not my fucking business...

but since they desperately need for a light to come on (so they can see, to get a clue), I hope at least one of them manages it.

[Phentex]

135. OUTLAW LIGHTBULBS! Buy flourescent! Stop wasting bulbs on purpose!

[Solly Mack]

151. Why not just declare the ass static free?

[Nobody]

137. She's a woman, let's all judge her!

1. She had sex.

Oh NOOOOOOO! Whore of Babylon! Run away!

2. She's not a virgin.

Oh NOOOOOO! See number one, SHE HAD SEX!

3. She has a kid. That means.... SHE HAD SEX. See number one.

4. She doesn't have a kid. But she's a college student. You know what they say about female college students.

Truth is, if you're a woman, everyone feels completely entitled to judge you, assume they know better than you about how you should live your life. None of them will step in and help you when living your life the way they want you to gets damn difficult.

So.... How much chemotherapy is too much?

[area51]

142. A better question

I think a better question would be: How many women's deaths are too many if abortion is made illegal/too hard to get?

Answer: one.

[noiretextatique]

149. let's talk about people who don't take care of their children, shall we?

i knew a woman in college who had at least five abortions before she finally had a son. she was (and probably still is) addicted to crack, and her son spent a good portion of his young life in foster care. and let's not pretend there are enough people out there willing to adopt less-than-perfect children, or older children, or children with physical, emotional, or mental issues...let's not pretend about that the way the anti-choice folks do.
and let's talk about the men who father children they can't be bothered with raising...mostly drug addicted too, btw. and let's talk about how THAT phenonmen still really isn't that frowned upon...
if you know you are irresponsible, abortion may actually be a better option, especially if you are using drugs that may harm the fetus.

[MsTryska]

166. heh......

you make an excellent point.


i knew a woman (also crack addcited for something like 10 years at the time) who had a baby every year.

she was married and claimed the babies were all her husbands - who - i don't know how much i can judge him - i think he might have had a drinking problem - but he worked and did his best to keep it together...


all the kids wound up in foster care (which is how i met them, when i was an aide to the lady who fostered them) and man did they have issues. either from being in other foster homes or being born crack addicted. the last 2 were absolutely heartbreaking - they were fraternal twins - the boy always cried to be held - he had such issues not being touched, and the girl - well she stunk. Every bodily fluid just stunk. Her spit was thick and sticky like sugar syrup, and she jsut smelled horrible.

I remember one time we stayed up all night with her, and the lady and i sat down to rest, and she said - the little girl is who i feel msot sorry for - they will shun her all her life, because she smells....



that was the one time when i really thought mandatory sterilization should be implemented.

[Name removed]

152. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cynatnite]

156. You did pretty good for a dumb male

:)

[noiretextatique]

181. an evolving society

we are not. RU486 is but one example of the cultural tug-of-war that makes something that makes so much sense "controversial."
yes...AMERICA needs to grow the fuck up.

[rainman99]

160. Abortions have INCREASED under Bush. They DECREASED

under Clinton. People are BROKE thanks to Bush and feel hopeless.

[southernleftylady]

161. yup! nt

[kestrel91316]

164. "abortion as birth control"

Why do we let THEM frame this???
They hate abortion used as any sort of birth control?? I think we need to fight back by saying that abortion as a PRIMARY (first line) form of birth control is only ok the first time it happens. After that, there are few excuses for unwanted pregnancy and a woman legitimately risks someones disapproval (though she must never risk her life with unsafe/illegal abortion). Though I am EXTREMELY pro-choice, I must admit to aggravation with women who never seem to get the concept of pregnancy PREVENTION!!!!!

Not saying it's scarlet letter time at all. Just saying that irresponsible women need to get a grip and BE RESPONSIBLE!

(bracing myself for flames, sorry)

[Lars39]

169. You need to brace yourself.

Precautions fail. Even multiple precautions.

[cynatnite]

173. Happened with my daughter

She was always good about taking her birth control pills. She got a urinary tract infection and was put on anti-biotics. She wasn't made aware that some can harm the effectiveness of the pill and got pregnant.

She had a beautiful little girl, but did learn that it's not always as effective as claimed. It never crossed my mind either.

[GinaMaria]

172. She's an adult

She's an adult, but if as you say she had 4 abortions, she's an adult and can make her own choices. If after the first one she didn't figure out that there is a cheaper, less physically traumatic and painful way to go, then nothing you do or say will change that. What good does judging her do? Does it accomplish something? She knows what she's doing and it's her choice.

Do we judge people for having too many (how many would that be?) children? Or judge them because they brought children into the world and won't provide for them according to our personal economic standards?

It's time to trust adults with their own lives and decisions. You can judge if you want to, it's your karma, but my energy is better spent focused on how I can make the world a better place by making me a better person.

[mixedview]

174. I'm not judging her as a person but

I don't think I would be comfortable being with a girl who had that many abortions. It's her right, but I mean, this is the year 2005, birth control is readily available. If she's not responsible enough to take birth control, then she's probably not that responsible, or maybe a little mixed up in the head. Just sayin, not judgin..

[Lars39]

175. I can see now the word for the day is "Irresponsible."

[cornermouse]

177. Well, if you aren't comfortable being around someone who is

somewhat less than perfect, then I suggest you find a place populated only with people whose purity equals your own.

[tjdee]

178. I don't think that's fair either.

If someone has caused four car accidents, you'd probably be a bit hesitant about letting them drive your car.

I don't judge women who have abortions, but there *is* a problem if she is using abortion as birth control. If only she is taking time and resources from other women.

Who makes the determination as to how many is too many? I don't know.

[Lars39]

180. Abortion IS a form of birth control.

Taking time and resources from other women? :wtf:

It is not anybody's right to determine "how many is too many".
Sheez.

[noiretextatique]

186. and since there is no 100% guarantee with any b.c.method

except abstinence, of course...one wonders why some people don't understand that one of the effects of intercourse is pregnancy.
funny that the OP didn't mention anything about the man/men who got this alleged women pregnant, huh?

[tjdee]

187. Well, it's also someone's right to drink themselves into alcoholism too.

And who should say how many drinks is too many?

:shrug:

Obviously, no one should should say how many is too many--that's why I said "I don't know" whose right it is, because there's no one who can definitively answer that. Obviously it's not my business if someone has five or six abortions.

But yeah--if my friend who's scared shitless and emotionally devastated has to wait to see a doctor because some chick is in for her monthly abortion, that *is* time and resources taken away from my friend.

[beam me up scottie]

189. Now abortion is comparable to alcoholism ?

What a ridiculous thing to say.

Almost as ridiculous as comparing abortions to car accidents.

[noiretextatique]

194. are you saying only *some* people have a right to healthcare?

a litmus test, perhaps? if you've had your quota of abortions, you have to wait until the emotionally devastated folk, who presumbably haven't met the abortion quota, are seen by a doctor before you can be seen?

[tjdee]

199. No,.

I'm not so much discussing the legal aspects, because I said above I don't think there is a person/entity who can say how much is too much. I don't think it is legislatable.

I'm saying that if I was in an abortion clinic with my friend, I'd be be pissed she had to wait that long. That is a lot different than saying there's some magical number of abortions women should be allowed to have. I'm not saying that at all.

[noiretextatique]

205. ??????

i'm afraid i'm not understanding you. your friend has to wait to have an abortion because other women are having them every month?
well...there is a big movement out there working diligently to make sure your friend won't even have the choice of waiting.

[Lars39]

197. Nope, the new word for the day is irresponsible.

Your friend was irresponsible to get pregnant. No soup for her. :sarcasm:

[noiretextatique]

212. i keep asking about the men

who impregnated these irresponsible, mentally ill women :eyes:

[cornermouse]

185. Faulty analogy.

But if driving cars is the analogy you want to go with it would be more accurate to say that she's driving her car, not yours and you're driving your own car, not hers. Unless of course, you want to ban abortion and (back to the analogy) start driving both your own car and hers and the lady down the street's car, and and the 5 cars one block over, the 100 or so cars in the county...............

News flash. Its not your business, its not my business, neither of us need to know.

[tjdee]

195. Is she driving "our" car?

If I'm in a relationship with someone, I have a vested interest in how he manages his birth control responsibilities.

I was responding to someone who responded to a poster who said he would think twice about being with a girl who had that many abortions--and I'm saying why fault that guy?

[cornermouse]

202. There is no "our" car.

And if there was, I would push you out immediately.

...Probably without bothering to stop the car.

I suggest you get in the car with the other poster. The two of you can be "pure" together.

[tjdee]

208. You'd push me out immediately.

Real nice.
:eyes:

I wasn't meaning your and my car. I was meaning two people in a relationship.

[cornermouse]

225. I never said I was nice.

O8)

At what point do you intend to ask someone if they've had an abortion. (This is when I'd push you out of the car and no I've never had an abortion but I'd still push you out because it would become clear you plan to butt in where you don't need to be.)

And if they say yes, are you going to be the one to push them out of the car? Or if they refuse to give you an answer? Or if, years later, you find out they lied about it?

Life is not neat and tidy.

[beam me up scottie]

215. ROFLMFAO !!!

:spray:
:rofl:

[beam me up scottie]

188. You're comparing abortion with car accidents ?

I'll tell you what, why don't you and the op worry about your OWN cars and stop discussing the morality of what others do with theirs.

How's that for fair ?

[Lars39]

201. But when his good friend can't get his car in to be fixed at the garage

the irresponsible drivers are taking time and resources away. :pout:

[tjdee]

206. I was wrong, you were right.

There's no such thing as being irresponsible.

:eyes:

Obviously, birth control is not always effective. Obviously, things happen.


But I think (and I seem to be in the minority, fine) that there *is* a point where enough is enough and a woman has to go "gee, I'm having a lot of abortions. Why is that?" Is that my business? Of course not--except as I said, when it becomes an issue for other women in similar situations.

[beam me up scottie]

210. Damn those lousy drivers !

x(

[cynatnite]

216. There are some bad ones out there who should lose their licenses

It's insane logic.

[beam me up scottie]

224. Just when you think you've heard everything...

Apparently some people should either stop trying to think or keep their idiotic conclusions to themselves.

I'd love to see what would happen to these guys if they said this in a room full of women in the real world...

But I guess it's easy to condemn us on the internet, that way, their cowardly little asses stay safe.

[cynatnite]

230. They'd come out of it walking funny

:rofl:

Even my hubby wouldn't compare it to driving a car and he likes to think he's the man's man. :eyes:

[sleipnir]

184. Whoa. Calm down.

There's no need for this. Any person who has had four abortions in a very short period of time has something wrong with her. It might be a serious mental disease that needs attention. I think that it is not even remotely normal for a person to have that many abortions in that time-frame. It's not a purity issue, it's a mental health and responsibility issue, if anything.

[noiretextatique]

190. are you a psychologist?

you're obviously not a psychiatrist, because if you were, you would know that there is no birth control method that is 100% effective.

[sleipnir]

204. No, nothing is 100%. But with oral contraception, it's close

And when using two methods, with say, a condom, it is VERY hard (if not impossible) to get impregnated.

Modern oral contraception has a .1% to .5% failure rate, if used properly. That means, if on "the pill" the subject in question would have to had sex 5,000 times to even begin approaching the statistical probability of four impregnations.

Simply put, she obviously was not taking steps towards responsible sex. That serious lack of responsibility with such a serious element (intercourse) does indicate potential problems with her mental health.

[Lars39]

207. Condoms break, anti-biotics interfere with the pill

There are women who cannot take the pill for various reasons, and there
are women who are allergic to latex.
I know of one "lucky" lady who falls under this category, and she is by
no means the only one.

[noiretextatique]

209. what about the man/men?

he sexual partner(s)? are they irresponsible and mentally ill? one presumes they could have at least used a condom, or they could get vasectomies.
and again: no method is 100% effective...very hard, next to impossible, etc, etc...no qualifier changes that fact.

[sleipnir]

217. Yes, I'm not letting the men off the hook.

There is a complete lack of responsibility of one does not use a condom. and absolute disrespect for the female partner. But, that said, she can always refuse intercourse without a condom. If he proceeds, then it's rape.

I agree, nothing is 100%. But then again, the chances of me not getting stuck by lighting here on my computer isn't 100%. But, I'll keep on typing because the odds are insanely low. One can never rule it out, but one can be certain it will likely never happen. Just like 4 pregnancies while using an oral contraceptive.

[noiretextatique]

226. perhaps she WAS raped...

and not using contraceptives because she was not anticipating being raped.

[beam me up scottie]

218. GASP! How DARE you bring men into this !!!

Who are you, the Church Lady ?

[noiretextatique]

221. no, i'm the resident, frigid, uptight, anti-sex lesbian

:sarcasm:

:hi: pleasure to meet you :hi:

[beam me up scottie]

227. Oh hey, what a coincidence!

Me too !!!

Well, except for the lesbian part, but I can pretend if it shocks their puritan sensibilities !

:rofl:

[noiretextatique]

234. oops...i mentioned the word "pleasure"

:spank: that's not in the feminazi code book :spank:

:rofl:

[beam me up scottie]

238. What does pleasure have to do with sex ?

:rofl:

[noiretextatique]

244. not a damn thing, according to some

at least not for those mentally ill, irresponsible women :sarcasm:
:spank: no more abortions for you, missy :spank:

IF a woman who has X number of abortions is mentally ill and irresponsible,
THEN...why would anyone WANT her to have a child?
would it be for punishment, perhaps? :dilemma:
curiouser and even more curiouser...

[beam me up scottie]

254. It's like pulling a loose thread

on a piece of cloth...

[cynatnite]

222. I saw a doctor clip the wrong tube during a vasectomy

He came back with wife who was five months pregnant to get it redone.

Accidents happen, people are irresponsible, someone doesn't pass on the right information or none at all...there are these and many other reasons as to why women get pregnant. A few women are malicious enough to get pregnant on purpose.

My mother used to say I should've drank orange juice instead. That's her stance on abstinance. :shrug:

[noiretextatique]

229. yep...shit happens all the time

:shrug: proably even a few men out there malicious enough to poke holes in condoms...

[beam me up scottie]

193. Mental disease ?

So calling it a purity issue is a no-no but calling it a mental disease is copacetic ?

You people need to mind your own business and stop discussing the morality or mental stability of fictional straw women.

[mixedview]

191. No, I didn't say I would be uncomfortable being around her,

I said I would be uncomfortable BEING WITH her -- as in romantically involved.

But every situation is unique, and if there was a good explanation, like maybe she was a messed up teenager or something and now she has her stuff together, then not a problem..

Like I said, I try not to judge people, but everyone has their choices to make, including me. And nope, I'm very far from being pure or perfect.

[cornermouse]

214. So you're going to say

"Would you like to catch a movie next Saturday night with me and by the way, have you ever had an abortion?"

[mixedview]

219. No, and I think you know that but I'll play.

Of course I would never ask that. Sheesh. But if I found out somehow it would trouble me if she had that many abortions. That's all I'm saying.

[iwillalwayswonderwhy]

250. How would you know?

Would you pre-screen your dates?

Have you ever had an abortion?

< >YES
< >No

How many?

< > 1
< > 2
< > 3
< > 4
< > More than 4

[beam me up scottie]

183. Some of your remarks in the OTHER thread may have been offensive ???

I suppose you think you're being Joe Liberal in this one.

You need to go wherever it is that people like you congregate and condemn women with the other prissy, holier-than-thou, clueless, sexually repressed ignoramuses.

Because, in case you haven't noticed, progressives do not appreciate this kind of judgemental, self-righteous rhetoric being posted on a liberal internet forum.

[McCamy Taylor]

192. Is this a Zen Koan?

[beam me up scottie]

196. No, I think it may be roll call for undercover reichwing propagandists.

[noiretextatique]

220. not undercover when you loudly tout an exception

as the rule.
"those irresponsible, mentally ill women are having too many abortions"
"abortion as birth control"
"why don't they use contraceptives"

did you notice, as i did, that the OP didn't mention the men who impregnated this alleged woman? so...let me get this straight...
2 people make the decision to have sex
2 people have the option of using birth control
2 people have sex
1 person is blamed for the consequences of sex
got it :eyes:

[beam me up scottie]

235. But think about the CHILDREN !

Isn't that what they tell us whenever an anti-choice knuckle dragger suggests limiting our reproductive rights ?

HEY GUYS,

SHUT THE FUCK UP AND ADAPT A SNOWFLAKE !!!

[fortress]

198. 42 is the right answer

... at least thats the answer to some of life's questions.


If someone is using it in the place of contraception, then yes, they should be made aware or other options, and if possible, instructed that religion has no place in or on a womans body.

period.

[ithinkmyliverhurts]

223. 3.141592

65358979323846264338327950288419716939937510582097494141592653589793238462643383279502884197169399375105820974944592307816406286208998628034825342117067982148086513282306647093844609550582231725359408128481117450284102701938521105559644622948954930381964428810975665933446128475648233786783165271201909145648566923460348610454326648213393607260249141273724587006606315588174881520920962829254091715364367892590360011330530548820466521384146951941511609433057270365759591953092186117381932611793105118548074462379962749567351885752724891227938183011949

[TankLV]

231. None of your goddamned business in the first place.

It's the WOMAN'S body, so it's her and her decision alone.

Period.

[cynatnite]

232. Recommending because this entire thread makes for a great read

There's a little bit everything here.

edited because it sounded dumb and wasn't what I meant :eyes:

[beam me up scottie]

240. I know, I love reading these after the dust

settles.

DU has some of the funniest women I have ever known !!!

[spuddonna]

233. I was reading thru the posts, and had a thought...

You seem to be concerned more with the idea that she was abusing the right to have an abortion.... But you also mention that you believe it's a legal right... I'm just trying to understand, not attack! :)

If you follow that logic, there are certainly other types of rights that we have that are abused by others. Is it morally or ethically wrong? Well, I guess that depends on the values system you apply.

I'm Catholic, and when my friend told me she'd had an abortion, I was so saddened for her and the child that died. My hubby is not Catholic, and did not have the same POV - he only felt total compassion for my friend. He thought that if we'd known, we could have supported her. But his value system didn't have the view that the aborted fetus was a child...

So we looked at the experience thru two different values systems. I think that may explain some of the harsh reactions to your words also... People are reacting thru the prism of their moral value system and their own personal experience...

[iwillalwayswonderwhy]

245. This reminds me of a friend of mine

She and I are both smokers. I smoke inside my house, but she doesn't smoke inside her house. She is continuously lecturing me on smoking outside.

It's MY house.

So as a compromise, I don't allow her to smoke in my house.

[noiretextatique]

247. excellent compromise

:rofl:

[JerseygirlCT]

248. Sure, morally speaking, I'm troubled by multiple abortions

It says the person isn't willing to look more carefully at some choices. I don't think abortion is something to be taken lightly. But I have a problem with people who smoke, too, for instance. I think it's quite stupid.

That said, LEGALLY that's none of my business. As many as she needs or wants.

Younger women especially have lives ahead of them, and are the most fertile. All birth control can fail at some time and for some people. It's difficult.

And as a feminist, I truly bristle at the idea that anyone has a right to control my medical choices. If it's my body, it's my choice. Really quite simple. There's plenty of gray -- surely a potential life is also involved. But so long as my body is required to bring that potential to fulfillment, then I'm really the only qualified person to make any decisions, especially difficult ones. I find it hard to see why people don't grasp that.

[Balbus]

256. The beautiful thing about the human mind...

Is that you can judge any person for any reason and there's not a damn thing anyone else can do about it. So the only real question is how many abortions is too many for you before you judge someone disfavorably?

I don't know anyone that's had 4 abortions, but to put your question into perspective I propose the following scenario: If a buddy of mine came up to me one day and said "I just got a penis enlargement," I'd say something like "Wow, interesting. How's that working out for you? Did you get the desired results?" etc, etc, etc... And if that same buddy came up to me 1 year later and said "I just got another penis enlargement!" I'd probably say something like "Huh," and leave it at that. And, if exactly 1 year later, the buddy came up to me again and said, "I just got another penis enlargement!" I'd probably say something like, "What's up with all the penis enlargements?" And then in the 4th year he told me again that he had another penis enlargement, I'd probably say, "Dude! You have a problem! Seek help!" and leave it at that.

So, for me, 4 penis enlargements in a 4 year period would lead me to judge my buddy disfavorably for something that he did which was totally legal. But to judge people is my right!

But the point of my post was to try to point out that your original question in you OP could've been framed several different ways without using the very sensitive subject of abortion. Your friend chose to have 4 abortions which is completely within her right to do so. You chose to judge her disfavorably because of it which is your right to do so. But in the end, no matter how much moral indignation you bring down upon her, she has done nothing wrong and there's not a damn thing you can do about it. Be her friend, don't be her friend, that is something you can have a choice in, though. But there's more to life than abortions and penis enlargements.

[Moderator]

257. Locking....

You start with a flamebait post you
will get flamebait replies.


DU Moderator