White House says they want to continue torture

[laura888]

<snip>
"The Bush administration in recent days has been lobbying to block legislation supported by Republican senators that would bar the U.S. military from engaging in "cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment" of detainees, from hiding prisoners from the Red Cross, and from using interrogation methods not authorized by a new Army field manual."

</snip>

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/22/AR2005072201727.html

----

So they've come right out and said it. :wtf:

[ck4829]

1. Everybody should kick and recommend this thread

[electron_blue]

2. wow - how flagrant

and finally - the white house is clashing against other Republicans on something related to the wars adn something that will seem outrageous to the avg American. This is not complicated.

eta: I see McCain is in on this group of what the "White House views as an incipient Republican rebellion."

I'm sure McCain has a deep-rooted view on how p.o.w.'s should be treated and is not likely to budge. Dontcha think?

[Tesla]

10. McCain makes me sick!

He is the biggest c@ck $u(ker I have ever seen!!!

[electron_blue]

14. What I'm saying it he's not likely to give into Bush on this one

[RandomKoolzip]

23. He caves to Bush every time.

Talks a good game, etc. He's like Bushco's designated "black sheep."

It's just an act, though.

[electron_blue]

24. I'm going to go on record as placing my bet on McCain this time

Official sanctioned torture of POW's - I don't see McCain caving.

[leesa]

36. He ALWAYS caves to Bush, no matter the topic.

After all, they get rice pilaf and lemon chicken and two kinds of vegetables.

[Burried News]

16. Boy things are getting bad when Cheney has to meet with Warner

to keep the whores in line.

[wli]

27. Cheney met with Warner? sources?

[lumpy]

3. Bump up/nt

[5X]

4. this admin is just un-fucking-believable.

I don't think we can wait for the next election.

[Katidid]

5. This is so obscene ...

What constitutes 'war crimes' or 'crimes against humanity'? Have we not yet reached the definition of this?

Who, in the this world, cares about these issues? We did at one time.
What has happened to us?

:shrug:

[jbnow]

21. Depends on the what the definition

of is, is. Really. (Don't you miss when that was just sexual lies?) If you read those memos almost nothing would be torture if you parse the motives for it correctly. They were all about how to avoid criminal charges for anything they do, not limiting what they do to any decent standards.

Then Gonzales was approved for AG and it was the right wing concerned he was too liberal to be on Supreme court! This is the guy who assured bush that even if they do hold prisoners outside of bounds of the Geneva Conventions our soldiers wouldn't face like consequences. OK, I have to find that quote.
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4989481/
Gonzales concluded in stark terms: "In my judgment, this new paradigm renders obsolete Geneva's strict limitations on questioning of enemy prisoners and renders quaint some of its provisions."

Gonzales also argued that dropping Geneva would allow the president to "preserve his flexibility" in the war on terror. His reasoning? That U.S. officials might otherwise be subject to war-crimes prosecutions under the Geneva Conventions. Gonzales said he feared "prosecutors and independent counsels who may in the future decide to pursue unwarranted charges" based on a 1996 U.S. law that bars "war crimes," which were defined to include "any grave breach" of the Geneva Conventions. As to arguments that U.S. soldiers might suffer abuses themselves if Washington did not observe the conventions, Gonzales argued wishfully to Bush that "your policy of providing humane treatment to enemy detainees gives us the credibility to insist on like treatment for our soldiers."

That is hardly the worst of those memos. So no, they really don't think there are boundaries on our side. And like I said, Gonzales is now AG and bush is still president!
I am hoping now with the slipping trust and approval ratings they won't get away with it this time. Sick.

[indepat]

6. No problem here if the American people want to condone lawless behavior

[enough]

7. Belief in a democratic society is just too idealistic for them.

They want a universal strong man ruling by fear and violence.

[iconoclastic cat]

8. Serious question: How the hell can they do that? How can they blow off the

court order to release the Abu Ghraib evidence?

Seriously. Have they just basically decided that they can ignore U.S. laws?

[wli]

28. yes, they have decided to ignore US laws

They must be threatening to assassinate Congress en masse or have major blackmail material on every last one of them for every last Congressman to take this lying down.

[Swamp Rat]

9. I hope Carl Levin can do something to halt this soon.

"One group, led by Sen. Carl M. Levin (D-Mich.), has proposed an amendment calling for an independent commission -- similar to the Sept. 11 commission -- to look into administration policies on interrogation and detainee abuse." - Go get 'em Carl!

[Tesla]

12. Man, when people read about this in the History books, (if allowed),

They won't believe what they are reading!! These people are getting away with this!!!

[Swamp Rat]

13. I wish folks would read the history books we already have, as flawed as

they are.

Hello? Anyone remember what happened to Germany?

[nolabels]

42. Or the wars before and the wars after

THE DOORS lyrics - "The End"


This is the end
Beautiful friend
This is the end
My only friend, the end

Of our elaborate plans, the end
Of everything that stands, the end
No safety or surprise, the end
I'll never look into your eyes...again

Can you picture what will be
So limitless and free
Desperately in need...of some...stranger's hand
In a...desperate land

Lost in a Roman...wilderness of pain
And all the children are insane
All the children are insane
Waiting for the summer rain, yeah

There's danger on the edge of town
Ride the King's highway, baby
Weird scenes inside the gold mine
Ride the highway west, baby

Ride the snake, ride the snake
To the lake, the ancient lake, baby
The snake is long, seven miles
Ride the snake...he's old, and his skin is cold

The west is the best
The west is the best
Get here, and we'll do the rest

The blue bus is callin' us
The blue bus is callin' us
Driver, where you taken' us

The killer awoke before dawn, he put his boots on
He took a face from the ancient gallery
And he walked on down the hall
He went into the room where his sister lived, and...then he
Paid a visit to his brother, and then he
He walked on down the hall, and
And he came to a door...and he looked inside
Father, yes son, I want to kill you
Mother...I want to...fuck you

C'mon baby, take a chance with us
C'mon baby, take a chance with us
C'mon baby, take a chance with us
And meet me at the back of the blue bus
Doin' a blue rock
On a blue bus
Doin' a blue rock
C'mon, yeah

Kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill

This is the end
Beautiful friend
This is the end
My only friend, the end

It hurts to set you free
But you'll never follow me
The end of laughter and soft lies
The end of nights we tried to die

This is the end




THE DOORS - "The End" lyrics

http://www.oldielyrics.com/lyrics/the_doors/the_end.html

[Swamp Rat]

48. Yes, I was listening to that song as I worked...

and again right now.

[emulatorloo]

11. kicking n/t

[jhain]

15. and where is Biden???

We could use some of his former outrage on the subject.

Anyone who has a friend/family member in the US military ought to be in the streets raging about this.

Our military will be subjected to even worse at the hands of captors now that the US has blatantly sanctioned it over and over.

[wli]

29. i.e. they're probably doing it to discourage surrender

Perhaps it's an alternative to morale-boosting or perhaps it's to inspire "fight to the death" attitudes. Sleazy (and a war crime!) any way you cut it.

[DanCa]

17. Is mel gibson the new director of torture and inquisition now (nt)

[annabanana]

18. Most important part of this: WH FIGHTS REPUBLICANS

Our best hope for blocking the logjam in this flood is with the Republican Party. I believe even they are beginning to see the advantages in telling the truth. After all, the Republicans of years gone by didn't just disintegrate into thin air with the neo-con takeover. Up until now it has been in their best interest to go along with the program.

Now? Not so much.

[laura888]

22. I sent the following to my Republican Senator in Virginia:

An excerpt from an article here:

http://www.smirkingchimp.com/article.php?sid=22036&mode=nested&order=0

It describes the eye witness account of an FBI agent at GITMO:


"On a couple of occasions, I entered interview rooms to find a detainee chained hand and foot in a fetal position to the floor, with no chair, food or water. Most times they urinated or defecated on themselves, and had been left there for 18-24 hours or more. On one occasion, the air conditioning had been turned down so far and the temperature was so cold in the room, that the barefooted detainee was shaking with cold. . . . On another occasion, the had been turned off, making the temperature in the unventilated room well over 100 degrees. The detainee was almost unconscious on the floor, with a pile of hair next to him. He had apparently been literally pulling his hair out throughout the night."

[ClayZ]

19. bu$hco is getting sicker fast!

INCARCERATION and a taste of their own medicine might help!

[TahitiNut]

20. Torture = GOP Viagra

They have become the party of sociopaths. Hundreds of billions of dollars annually for (privatized) death, destruction, abuse, and imprisonment. A nation with the highest per capita imprisonment rate in the civilized world and a political party with the highest number of convicted felons in influential political positions.

At the same time, the Democratic Party has become the party of the codependent battered spouse, afraid to speak up and obsessed with using make-up to cover the bruises and scars. Hiding in their bedrooms, the People are like children who just want Mommy and Daddy to stop fighting so they can have the nice authoritarian wonderland they see on TV.

[ClayZ]

25. Spot On. They Psy-Oped the nation!

:crazy: :crazy: :crazy:

[annabanana]

26. sigh.... You DO have a way with words, TahitiNut...

:loveya:

[WePurrsevere]

50. We can only HOPE that when the "battered spouses" finally SNAP....

it will be a massive "Burning Bed" that cleanses the world of these vile abusers. :nuke:

[BuelahWitch]

52. I was thinking the same thing

It's the only thing that gives Bush a hard on.

[Stirk]

30. Notice Cheney's argument? That it would "usurp presidential authority"?

As if the Executive Branch is above the other two branches. Coequal, Mr. Cheney- look it up.

These guys are rabidly federalist- and their insistence on supreme Executive authority reaches the point of dictatorship. They despise our system of checks and balances, and seek to undermine our system of government at every opportunity.

[Mnemosyne]

31. .

:kick:

[Nothing Without Hope]

32. Cheney assumes that the usual bullying will shut up this "rebellion":

(excerpt from the article, which, by the way was on Page A1:

(snip)

Vice President Cheney met Thursday evening with three senior Republican members of the Senate Armed Services Committee to press the administration's case that legislation on these matters would usurp the president's authority and -- in the words of a White House official -- interfere with his ability "to protect Americans effectively from terrorist attack."

(snip)

The White House, in a further indication of its strong feelings, bluntly warned in a statement sent to Capitol Hill on Thursday that President Bush's advisers would urge him to veto the $442 billion defense bill "if legislation is presented that would restrict the President's authority to protect Americans effectively from terrorist attack and bring terrorists to justice."

(snip)

Reading the article, I have to wonder why Cheney is so adamant about the President's "right" to order torture. Do they really think that torture is so very useful, as they claim? Aside from any concern with ethics, evidence is quite contrary to this: tortured prisoners will say anything to stop the torture. Or is it just the refusal to accept ANY checks on the President's absolute power as a dictator? I believe it is BOTH. Cheney and the other mad-dog-neocon leadership LIKE torture, are excited by it - it's the ultimate power trip for them - and have convinced themselves that it works. At the same time, they see the President as an absolute dictator who must be uncontrolled by any laws or checks by the legislative or judicial branch of the government. Just like Gonzales' torture memo said - he's ABOVE the law, including the Geneva Conventions.

[Jim Sagle]

39. Torture DOES work.

Not that it gets useful information out of anyone.

But this regime doesn't care about that.

They want to intimidate US. tHEY WANT US TO KNOW they can torture US if we don't shut up!

[Hubert Flottz]

45. Cheney and Bush are spending their "Political Capital" from the

Terror attacks in London!


Some more of that good old republican "MORALITY" and Family Values at work in Iraq!

[mvd]

33. kick

and recommended. Argh - I really didn't think I could get angrier at these people. :grr:

[AlamoDemoc]

34. I'm Speechless !

Kick!!!

[leesa]

35. We LIKE it! It's FUN.

[SpiralHawk]

37. This needs to be linked in the public mind with

"BushCo Blocks Release of Torture Photos."

Make it plain that it is a digraceful coverup all the way around.

BushCo, lacking in honor. Sadly, this is how it is.

[gulfcoastliberal]

38. Kicked & Recommended!

What morally bankrupt, sadistic, hypocrits we have runniong our country into the ground and pulverizing the good legacies of this country. And meanwhile the media cheers them on. What new Dark Age have we entered?

[seabeyond]

40. then dont be so shy in showing pictures if they are ok

with torture. show us the pictures. then look into america's eyes and tell us they want to continue. lets see what the american people have to say.

[goforit]

41. Totally derranged.

[wtmusic]

43. Can't we just review Geneva

and decide whether we're going to abide by the fucking treaties we've already signed? Why do we have to reinvent that wheel? Damn their hypocrisy.

[NMMNG]

44. Why am I not surprised?

Vice President Cheney met Thursday evening with three senior Republican members of the Senate Armed Services Committee to press the administration's case that legislation on these matters would usurp the president's authority and -- in the words of a White House official -- interfere with his ability "to protect Americans effectively from terrorist attack."




How does using cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment against detainees or hiding them from the Red Cross protect Americans from terrorist attacks?
:shrug:

[phusion]

46. I'm wondering...

if this administration will willingly give up power in 3 years? They really don't give a shit about US or international laws. What makes us think that they will leave the White House like they are supposed to?

[laura888]

47. Agreed. They are obviously living in some other universe...

...where normal rules don't matter.

Anything is possible.

[Solly Mack]

49. I think they'll do anything to keep a republican in office

even if it's not Shrub

They've worked too hard at expanding the powers of the executive office not to , once again, cheat to get a GOP'er in office.

And it will be one of their own...not some non-playing outsider

Under Clinton the right wing whined and moan about the President having too much power or assuming too much power (away from Congress)Naturally, a lie...yet with Bush/Cheney...you get 2 people who moan about "restoring power back to the WH"...and the right wing in Congress agreeing with it.

They've done and are doing one of the bigger things they set out to do...expanding the power of the office of President. Expanding it beyond the call of duty at that...to tyrannical heights.

It's one of the excuses used for not supporting the legislation....it would reduce the "absolute" power of the President...

They use that excuse a lot...which shows what their motive is..

[WePurrsevere]

51. How can many Xian churches & synagogues remain silent about this?....

:(

What happened to WWJD (what would Jesus do)? It seems to have morphed into WWJB (who would Jesus bomb) and now onward to WWJT (Who would Jesus torture)?

This certainly is NOT what Jesus taught in the Beatitudes and I would think true Christians would be furious to see his message to perverted by these vile BushCo RePIGlicans. I would also think the Jews would be horrified that our government thinks that doing to these prisoners what was done to them in Nazi Germany is at all acceptable. This is NOT about "Politics" where the church should not take a stance.. this is about doing things that are just plain WRONG... the things religions truly should be speaking up LOUDLY against.

Niemöller was right on...

First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.