Modem Butterfly
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Sat Jul-23-05 03:09 PM
Original message |
London Police got THE WRONG FUCKING GUY |
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http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/07/23/london.tube/index.htmlThis poor bastard ran from five armed men. Gee, why would you do that? How foolish, thinking that you couldn't trust the police. It's not like they NEVER FUCK UP and accidently KILL PEOPLE. :grr:
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Taxloss
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Sat Jul-23-05 03:10 PM
Response to Original message |
1. This is an unprecedented incident. |
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It is being closely investigated.
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skooooo
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Sat Jul-23-05 03:11 PM
Response to Original message |
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I have a hard time feeling sorry for the poor bastard who jumped a turnstile, and didn't stop when he was told to the day after a bunch of bombs were set to go off. Honestly, what exactly are the police to do? Let people running around in coats in July jump turnstiles and disobey orders to stop?
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tk2kewl
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Sat Jul-23-05 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #2 |
4. what would you do if you were chased by guys in plain cloths with guns? |
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let me know after it happens to you.
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Taxloss
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Sat Jul-23-05 03:14 PM
Original message |
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People do not have guns. They would have shouted "Armed Police! Get Down!" as the people on the train reported they did. What part of that is not clear?
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tk2kewl
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Sat Jul-23-05 03:15 PM
Response to Original message |
13. there was a guy not far from my house that was pulled over by a |
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Edited on Sat Jul-23-05 03:15 PM by tk2kewl
fake cop, robbed and shot dead.
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beam me up scottie
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Sat Jul-23-05 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #13 |
tk2kewl
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Sat Jul-23-05 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #19 |
beam me up scottie
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Sat Jul-23-05 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #26 |
31. I'm not the one pretending |
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that shootings are an everyday occurence in foreign cities.
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tk2kewl
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Sat Jul-23-05 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #31 |
42. did i say a single thing whatsoever about the frequency of shootings |
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in london? i said it's not unnatural to be afraid when people with guns are after you.
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Benbow
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Sat Jul-23-05 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #42 |
72. It is even more natural to be afraid of suicide bombers |
ret5hd
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Sat Jul-23-05 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #72 |
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what's the incidence of people dying from suicide bombers per 100,000 people in your city...compared to gunshot?
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Benbow
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Sat Jul-23-05 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #78 |
84. The trouble is, with a gunshot you have a good chance of surviving |
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but with suicide bombers, it will be days before the emergency services have found enough of your body to give it back to your family for burial.
Please have a frigging heart - this is not about how statistically likely you are to be blown up.
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ret5hd
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Sat Jul-23-05 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #84 |
97. well then, i guess i should be REALLY REALLY worried... |
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that a grizzy bear will attack me if i visit alaska... or SHARKS! (it's shark week isn't it) or, at the time, that iraq would shoot an atomic missile at the u.s.
after all, it's not about the likelyhood of it happening...it's the internal drama we've built up in our heads.
Read this: The Culture of Fear: Why Americans Are Afraid of the Wrong Things by Barry Glassner
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Benbow
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Sat Jul-23-05 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #97 |
113. No, it's about how risk-averse people are - and everyone is different |
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Alaska is so much bigger than London, and so much less populated, and not the capital of any country, and its Prime Minister is not Bush's poodle, and so on.
Fox News is already telling its audience that Iraq (or Iran) is about to nuke Washington.
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ret5hd
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Sat Jul-23-05 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #113 |
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as i said, it's not about the likelyhood of an event...
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tk2kewl
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Sat Jul-23-05 03:36 PM
Response to Reply #72 |
80. i understand that you might feel threatened... |
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and you're willing to give up some liberty for safety. i was pretty angry and scared living in NYC after 9/11, but i am definitely not interested in an american police state.
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Benbow
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Sat Jul-23-05 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #80 |
85. The US is pretty well a police state, and the UK is nowhere near being one |
beam me up scottie
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Sat Jul-23-05 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #85 |
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How ignorant to believe otherwise.
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chascarrillo
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Sat Jul-23-05 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #31 |
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An average of two homicides by firearms every three days in London. But don't let the facts stop you from making assertions...
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KG
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Sat Jul-23-05 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #26 |
61. see, it happened in london, so that makes it all ok. |
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Sat Jul-23-05 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #61 |
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Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
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H2O Man
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Sat Jul-23-05 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #70 |
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And there are not easy answers; anyone who says there is, is clearly wrong. But the British do have a history of violence towards communities that they consider to be both "at risk" and "of lesser human value." Many of the tactics that US special forces having been employing on "terror suspects" are those that were developed in Northern Ireland since the 1970s. Many of us are familiar with events that are not unlike the death of this "suspect."
I admit that I am not entirely objective on this topic. It is not entirely one-sided. Surely, these cops are under a huge amount of pressure, and were not going out to have the pleasure found in killing an innocent man. They will likely carry a burden for trying to do what they thought was right. Yet the victim's burden is greater.
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beam me up scottie
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Sat Jul-23-05 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #91 |
96. I have been listening to the coverage of the events in London |
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since it began. I do not listen to the American news media, which may be why I'm more "objective" than others.
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Sat Jul-23-05 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #70 |
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Sat Jul-23-05 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #104 |
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KG
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Sat Jul-23-05 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #112 |
127. come on, don't be that way. i'm really interested! |
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i'm sure i'd find your simplistic explaination of all these very complicated justifications for the killing an innocent man to be highly amusing to read! :eyes:
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Modem Butterfly
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Sat Jul-23-05 03:25 PM
Response to Original message |
48. No bad guy would ever pretend to be something he's not |
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No, that would never, ever happen.
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H2O Man
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Sat Jul-23-05 03:36 PM
Response to Reply #48 |
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I used to do trainings with police, on how to deal with the mentally ill in the community. I am not saying this person was mentally ill, or not. But a couple things seemed curious to me. One of the things that is often a clue that a person might be experiencing symptoms of such an illness is wearing clothes that don't fit the season. Might be a heavy jacket in the summer, or just a t-shirt in the winter.
If a person was, say, mildly psychotic, but breaking no law, just walking down the street ..... he or she is far, far less likely to commit a violent crime than to be the victim of one. If five people, in or out of uniform, came at such a person, he would likely run.
I have no idea what the exact circumstances are. But I see us becoming a world that crushes the most vulnerable among us, in the name of law & order.
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Benbow
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Sat Jul-23-05 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #79 |
90. Unfortunately, that might turn out to be the case - however, the mentally |
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ill are, some of them, a risk to others as well as to themselves.
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H2O Man
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Sat Jul-23-05 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #90 |
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pose a potential risk to themselves and others, as well. Hope the police don't begin executing them. (Perhaps those using cell phones while driving deserve to be shot, however.)
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Benbow
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Sat Jul-23-05 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #94 |
109. Yes, those using mobile phones while driving ... |
beam me up scottie
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Sat Jul-23-05 03:43 PM
Original message |
"I have no idea what the exact circumstances are" |
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Thank you for admitting that. Now if we can get everybody else in this thread to admit it, we can stop the hysteria.
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H2O Man
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Sat Jul-23-05 03:48 PM
Response to Original message |
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very serious concerns, without those concerns being called hysteria. I also think that it is worth considering that as harshly as people here view this, there is little doubt how this event is playing in the Muslim world.
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beam me up scottie
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Sat Jul-23-05 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #99 |
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without any evidence and claiming that they are shooting innocent "brown" people with reckless abandon qualifies as hysteria in my book. It's irresponsible at best and belongs in the PCT category.
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H2O Man
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Sat Jul-23-05 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #117 |
124. Maybe you would benefit |
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Edited on Sat Jul-23-05 04:03 PM by H2O Man
from listening to something a little more informative than that British news. Actually, I think you are making valid points, at least in about 90% of what you are saying. But I think that the other 10% is a little off. I think that the intense hatred that this incident will stir up -- and I'll bet that it will include some brown skinned people -- has a heck of a lot more to do with the shooting than the posts on DU that you seem to find more offensive than the killing in question.
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beam me up scottie
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Sat Jul-23-05 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #124 |
130. I do listen to other independent news organisations. |
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And I also listen to the people who live there, as well as in Europe, Asia, and the Middle East. Perhaps you should as well. People in America are trying to view this incident the way they do police shootings in Cincinnati and LA.
Misinformation and inflammatory statements ARE dangerous, regardless of what others may think. Or did you forget what happened in the days following Sept. 11 ?
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Benbow
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Sat Jul-23-05 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #130 |
132. The police have apologised, and one priority now is damage-limitation |
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with the Muslim community, as well as the formal inquiry.
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H2O Man
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Sat Jul-23-05 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #130 |
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as I view the killings in Ireland. And I've seen little evidence that anyone confuses the event with LA. It might be closer to something that would occur on Pine Ridge. And I agree that attempting to connect his death with anything related to 9-11 is dangerous.
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beam me up scottie
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Sat Jul-23-05 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #139 |
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Every other post is by someone citing shootings in America.
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H2O Man
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Sat Jul-23-05 04:38 PM
Response to Reply #152 |
167. I've read the thread. |
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But, as I pointed out, no one is mistaking it for LA. And, as I said, it could be compared to other killings without mistaking it for them. You wouldn't be so upset, I hope, if I said that the US war in Iraq is similar to Vietnam. Even though you may have little regard for my opinion, you hopefully recognize that I could find both Iraq and Vietnam on a globe.
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beam me up scottie
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Sat Jul-23-05 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #167 |
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Edited on Sat Jul-23-05 05:14 PM by beam me up scottie
inexcusable behaviour on my part
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Modem Butterfly
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Sat Jul-23-05 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #170 |
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Edited on Sat Jul-23-05 05:11 PM by Modem Butterfly
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beam me up scottie
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Sat Jul-23-05 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #190 |
196. It wasn't meant as a blow. |
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It was meant to show that people are using their experiences here to speculate about the Brits and the London police. I apologize that I offended you and I still consider you my friend. I never should have entered this thread, I was still pissed off at the other one that accused them of being part of the conspiracy.
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H2O Man
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Sat Jul-23-05 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #170 |
199. Had you said Atlanta, |
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everything would have made sense.
It's a horrible situation. Innocent people in England suffered and died, because of a conflict that they do not want. Regardless of what anyone thinks of Blair, the British people have been outspoken in their opposition to the madness of George Bush. It shows the insanity of the terrorists.
I do appreciate how difficult the policemen's jobs have become. Perhaps, if nothing else, this incident shows how quickly out of control violence spirals. And that only "benefits" those who seek to destroy that which is good in society.
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beam me up scottie
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Sat Jul-23-05 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #199 |
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It is horrible and I hope that Americans are paying attention to how a police shooting is handled in London. The people at work couldn't understand why everybody was so horrified over one person being shot. It's different in the UK and I wish it was that way here. I forget what it's like to live around gentle people.
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H2O Man
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Sat Jul-23-05 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #203 |
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the gentle people of the world, no matter if they are from England, the USA, Iraq, or South Africa, will rise up in peace and take the "out-of-control power" from our sick & violent siblings. Doing so will, of course, include some discussions where tempers may flare -- however momentarily. I say that to say this: the comment a few posts north of this one was not a "blow." I understood what you were saying. And it's really not a matter of "right vs wrong" in discussing this. Both you and M.B. make a heck of a lot of sense on here, and most all the other threads. It's important that people can disagree -- even strongly -- and still be good friends.
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Taxloss
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Sat Jul-23-05 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #48 |
151. MB, with all due respect, you're way off beam on this one. |
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These police will be punished. This incident has been met with shock in the UK. The rules of engagement are being redrafted as we speak. I would humbly advise dropping the subject until we know more.
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still_one
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Sat Jul-23-05 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #151 |
195. is that what free speech is all about? |
Taxloss
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Sat Jul-23-05 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #195 |
215. So "free speech" means I can't make a humble suggestion? |
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Wow, the definition has really narrowed.
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marions ghost
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Sat Jul-23-05 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #151 |
213. so perhaps we DUers who |
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discussed this from the earliest reports were NOT wrong in our initial speculation that something clearly did not add up. And yet we were called conspiracy theorists, accused of starting flame wars, and received a severe tongue-lashing for questioning the police behavior from several posters...
On the positive side: I commend the British police for being open about this tragedy. At least they did not put the public through a cowardly cover-up about it. Mistakes can be forgiven more easily than lies. I hope you will keep us posted about the opinion in Britain on the ground about this event, taxloss.
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Taxloss
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Sat Jul-23-05 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #213 |
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Edited on Sat Jul-23-05 05:40 PM by Taxloss
those of us who said that it would be wrong to speculate and who said that we knew little were also entirely correct in our reaction. We did nothing to support or condemn any reaction, we simply acted against hysteria. And even now we do not know the facts in full - and they will be publicly released as soon as they are established. I know you're now dealing with a secrecy state, but we're not like that yet.
Edit: typo
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skooooo
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Sat Jul-23-05 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #4 |
10. If they yelled "Stop police"! |
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I'd stop -- especially if I was in a subway the day after a bunch of bombs were set. What would you do?
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Eric J in MN
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Sat Jul-23-05 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #10 |
14. We don't know if they shouted that. (nt) |
skooooo
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Sat Jul-23-05 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #14 |
27. You think they didn't tell him to stop?? |
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I would be very, very surprised that the cops would be chasing people in the subway not giving warnings. On top of that they THOUGHT he was someone of suspicion. Given the other facts (his behavior and the circumstances in London), I DON'T BLAME THE COPS AT ALL, AND I THINK SOME PEOPLE ON HERE ARE BEING RIDICULOUS IN THEIR CRITICISMS.
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Benbow
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Sat Jul-23-05 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #27 |
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People are forgetting also that, it being underground and full of people, the police could not safely fire warning shots.
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Bluebear
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Sat Jul-23-05 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #10 |
beam me up scottie
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Sat Jul-23-05 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #28 |
38. According to witnesses, yes, they did. |
skooooo
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Sat Jul-23-05 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #38 |
49. People aren't interested in what the witnesses saw happen.. |
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...they want to project their own beliefs onto this incident - play this off like it was some kind of police conspiracy. Believe what you want to believe.
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beam me up scottie
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Sat Jul-23-05 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #49 |
55. Education is painful for morons. |
mdmc
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Sat Jul-23-05 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #4 |
136. I would probably get shot |
tk2kewl
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Sat Jul-23-05 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #136 |
140. and according to some people here, that would be your own fault |
mdmc
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Sat Jul-23-05 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #140 |
144. a month ago, I would never accepted blame |
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the day after a bombing, I would take partial blame.
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MadAsHellNewYorker
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Sat Jul-23-05 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #4 |
175. Shoot First, ask Questions later |
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Thats all there is too it. Instead of taking a man into custody, you just shoot to kill, now that makes perfect sense :sarcasm:
Unless someone is killing people in front of your eyes (or brandishing a weapon with a hostage), no one should ever be shot for suspicion.
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Taxloss
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Sat Jul-23-05 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #2 |
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This guy acted in a completely stupid manner, given the circumstances.
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baby_mouse
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Sat Jul-23-05 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #5 |
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What circumstances?
Tell me the rest of this story that I'm missing, I bet I'm missing something, then.
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beam me up scottie
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Sat Jul-23-05 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #18 |
20. Did you read any of the reports ? |
Taxloss
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Sat Jul-23-05 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #18 |
44. OK, you have a city on very high alert, possibly the most elevated |
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it ever has been. Police and the emergency services are dealing with two massive security breaches within the space of two weeks. Police have been drawn in from across the country to redouble an unprecedented security effort, and the day after the most recent round of EIGHT successful or attempted suicide bombings, a guy you are following breaks for a train.
Pop quiz, hot shot. What do you do?
Here's a clue. British police are not armed - special units of them are, and are deployed according to need. Even then, they are not permitted to open fire without the specific permission of a superior who is not on the scene. It's not like America.
Secondly, it seems this officer over-reacted in a horrible manner. He will very probably lose his career. So it's not like he swanned home smirking.
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Benbow
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Sat Jul-23-05 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #5 |
Modem Butterfly
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Sat Jul-23-05 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #2 |
6. Well gee, the I guess it's okay they MURDERED someone in COLD BLOOD? |
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You don't AIM FOR THE HEAD unless you WANT someone to DIE.
Geez, I guess jumping the turnstiles is now a CAPITAL OFFENSE in London.
And why would someone wear a coat in London in July? It NEVER RAINS there, and it's CERTAINLY as warm as EVERYWHERE else in the world!
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skooooo
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Sat Jul-23-05 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #6 |
15. Agree to disagree then... |
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I feel more sorry for the cops and the people on the trains, instead of for someone wearing a coat in July, jumping turnstiles, and flipping out when told to stop by the police.
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Eric J in MN
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Sat Jul-23-05 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #15 |
21. he probably didn't know they were the police (nt) |
beam me up scottie
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Sat Jul-23-05 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #21 |
25. HOW do you know that ? |
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Why are you making this up ?
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Eric J in MN
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Sat Jul-23-05 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #25 |
32. They were plain clothes following him for surveillence. |
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They could have said to him as he left his house, "We're the police and we'd like to talk to you."
When a bunch of guys start following someone, he usually doesn't know who they are.
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beam me up scottie
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Sat Jul-23-05 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #32 |
45. They "could" have been wearing clown outfits too. |
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Why do you insist on posting inflammatory speculation ? Why don't you read the reports before posting what "could" have happened ?
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Eric J in MN
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Sat Jul-23-05 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #45 |
58. It's public information that they were plain clothes cops (nt) |
beam me up scottie
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Sat Jul-23-05 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #58 |
76. That means he didn't know they were cops ? |
Modem Butterfly
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Sat Jul-23-05 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #76 |
88. If someone in street clothes pulled a gun on you... |
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...would you automatically assume they were cops? I wouldn't. I don't think I would panic and run, but I might.
We had a rapist here in Atlanta that had tricked his car out with police lights so that it looked like an unmarked police car (there's a very distinctive row of lights that these cars have in GA). He pulled over people in out of the way areas and if they were female, robbed and raped them. He had several victims. He's not the first one to try this tactic, either; we've had a number of home invasion robberies perpetrated by fake plainclothed police officers.
I would insist on seeing a badge.
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beam me up scottie
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Sat Jul-23-05 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #88 |
106. This is nothing like the US. |
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And there was an obvious police presence in this area of London. People knew they were looking for suspects, they could see the cops everywhere.
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Modem Butterfly
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Sat Jul-23-05 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #106 |
116. They also know there are terrorists around |
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I was in Atlanta during the Olympic Park bombing. If I'd seen a guy in street clothes with a gun in those days I would not have assumed he had my best interests at heart.
The victim panicked. Some mistakes cost you your life. But that does not excuse the cops, who fucked this one up, pardon the pun, royally.
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Benbow
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Sat Jul-23-05 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #116 |
118. You keep forgetting - in the UK, we do not have gun-human being parity |
beam me up scottie
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Sat Jul-23-05 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #116 |
123. The terrorists in London |
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Edited on Sat Jul-23-05 04:02 PM by beam me up scottie
were using bombs in knapsacks, not guns. And the cops identified themselves and asked him to stop. Perhaps they were not justified in shooting this person and I agree it should not have happened.
But it also would NOT have happened three weeks ago.
That is what I'm getting at. London police are nothing like ours and it's extremely unfair to the Brits to infer that they are.
edited for clarity
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Modem Butterfly
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Sat Jul-23-05 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #123 |
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I still wouldn't have assumed an armed apparent civilian wasn't a terrorist. Nor am I willing to take someone's word for it on being a cop. And if this guy really was from Brazil, depending on what part of the country, he might very well not either.
But it also would NOT have happened three weeks ago.
Yeah, that's true.
London police are nothing like ours and it's extremely unfair to the Brits to infer that they are.
Cops are humans, and capable of error, whether British, American, Tanzanian or Australian. Unlike other humans though their errors can cost lives and get excused simply because of their job descriptions. This cop fucked up, shot into a crowd at an unarmed, innocent man. He shouldn't get a pass on that just because he has a badge.
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Benbow
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Sat Jul-23-05 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #131 |
134. Tell me how often US police have apologised for killing the wrong person |
Modem Butterfly
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Sat Jul-23-05 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #134 |
138. Yeah, an apology makes everything better, doesn't it? |
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The dead guy, killed in error, can just stand up and say, "No harm, no foul, dude. Nice shot!"
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beam me up scottie
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Sat Jul-23-05 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #138 |
141. That's not what he means. |
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In the US cops kill people all of the time and they find ways to excuse it. They never would have admitted to the mistake as quickly as the London police did. Hell, they would never have admitted it was a mistake.
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Modem Butterfly
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Sat Jul-23-05 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #141 |
149. It doesn't fix anything |
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The guy is still dead. The cops could apologize until the end of time and that wouldn't fix anything.
I'm not sure what the contrast with US cops has to do with this matter. Cops are humans, everywhere you go, and this was a human error.
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beam me up scottie
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Sat Jul-23-05 04:29 PM
Response to Reply #149 |
159. You are accusing the cops of intentionally murdering an innocent man. |
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Your op suggested that the London police couldn't be trusted. That's baseless speculation.
Cops in America carry guns and use them all the time. How often does something like this happen in London ?
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Modem Butterfly
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Sat Jul-23-05 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #159 |
165. You know what? You're right, BMUS |
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I guess I'm a mouth breather too.
The London police shot an unarmed, innocent man. They panicked and shot the wrong guy. That doesn't sound trustworthy to me. And it doesn't sound more acceptable because it doesn't happen frequently, and the quick apology doesn't make it any easier for me to accept, and you know, as a person who rather resembles the guy they killed, it doesn't set my mind at ease.
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beam me up scottie
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Sat Jul-23-05 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #165 |
174. I never SAID that they didn't shoot an innocent man. |
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I never SAID that they didn't make a mistake. They admitted that they did and are in the process of making sure that it doesn't happen again. And from what I've read, the responsible parties will be punished. The Brits are outraged over this and they should be. THAT is why brown people (and myself) should feel a hell of a lot safer on a London tube than in Texas. At ANY time.
You went overboard with your accusation, it was unnecessary and hurtful to the British DUers, but that's just MHO.
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Modem Butterfly
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Sat Jul-23-05 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #174 |
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...every post you've made about the US police is hurtful to American DUers.
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beam me up scottie
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Sat Jul-23-05 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #180 |
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Unless you claim that the shootings here are investigated thoroughly and the appropriate punishments meted out. Because I sure the hell don't.
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Modem Butterfly
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Sat Jul-23-05 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #25 |
34. They were plainclothes |
Benbow
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Sat Jul-23-05 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #34 |
81. They were carrying automatic weapons, according to witnesses - |
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those are big guns - a bit hard not to notice.
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CJCRANE
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Sat Jul-23-05 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #81 |
133. I thought the plain clothes |
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guy only had a handgun. There were three plainclothes in the train. It also seems that several uniformed officers with submachines were also following on.
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Modem Butterfly
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Sat Jul-23-05 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #15 |
30. You FEEL SORRY for the COPS in this SITUATION? |
skooooo
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Sat Jul-23-05 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #30 |
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The whole thing is a tragedy, admittedly. But, no, I don't blame the cops. Now that the words fail you, will you stop replying to me, or shall we talk more?
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Sat Jul-23-05 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #35 |
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skooooo
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Sat Jul-23-05 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #40 |
43. I disagree with you, so you call me a fascist. |
Bluebear
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Sat Jul-23-05 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #43 |
50. "I DON'T BLAME THE COPS AT ALL" you said. |
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Without knowing all the facts, can you manage to at least feel bad that an innocent man was killed? Or have you pictured the whole scenario in your head and you have made up your mind? Just sayin.
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skooooo
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Sat Jul-23-05 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #50 |
59. I feel sorry for both... |
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...of course. The man, as far as we can tell, was "innocent" of what ever they thought. They THOUGHT he was involved which is why they were following him. They made a mistake. I'm just saying that in London, today, if someone is in the subway, and told something like "Stop police!" -- which apparently happened, because that's what witnesses say -- then, for CHRISSAKE STOP.
And if you don't, then YOU are playing with YOUR life. That's the sad fact. And please don't call me a fascist. Online discussion is not the best way to communicate, so maybe I came off a certain way, but I am not a fascist.
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beam me up scottie
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Sat Jul-23-05 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #59 |
66. If anybody who doesn't believe that all cops are evil |
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and love to kill innocent people is a "fascist", then I'm one too.
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Modem Butterfly
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Sat Jul-23-05 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #66 |
73. So do you agree that this guy was asking for it? |
beam me up scottie
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Sat Jul-23-05 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #73 |
82. I agree that this was an unusual |
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occurrence and that it is being investigated. I agree that running from the police after being told to stop is not usually a good idea. I believe that London police do not make a habit of shooting innocent civilians with no reason. As a matter of fact, I believe that London police do not make a habit of shooting people at all. Am I a fascist for waiting to hear the results of the investigation before condemning the police ?
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Modem Butterfly
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Sat Jul-23-05 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #82 |
103. You agree that this is an unusual circumstance and is being investigated? |
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You also agree that water is composed of two molecules of hydrogen and one of water?
Honestly, how can anyone disagree with those facts?
No, running from the police after being told to stop is not a good idea. Running from an armed man in street clothes after being told to stop is not a good idea, either. But it is certainly understandable.
Am I a fascist for waiting to hear the results of the investigation before condemning the police ?
Not unless you immediately absolve the police and condem the victim based on the fact that he was shot and the police have a job to do.
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beam me up scottie
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Sat Jul-23-05 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #103 |
137. I didn't absolve them and neither did anyone else. |
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You, on the other hand tried them and found them guilty. Look at some of the mouth breathers that responded with hate on this thread. I know that was not your intention and that you are capable of using reason and logic. The hate mongers are not and I don't think we should feed them.
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Modem Butterfly
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Sat Jul-23-05 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #137 |
145. That is exactly what some have already done |
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And holding the cops accountable for their mistakes is not trying and convicting them. Hell, it's a mistake they themselves admit to!
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beam me up scottie
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Sat Jul-23-05 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #145 |
161. Show me anyone who has exhonerated them. |
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You accused them of murdering an innocent man, not making a mistake.
You claim that they should have known he was innocent. How ?
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skooooo
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Sat Jul-23-05 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #73 |
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No, he wasn't "asking" for it. Obviously, something was wrong, though. Maybe he didn't understand English? Maybe he had a half ounce of marijuana on him and was scared? I don't know why he seemed to flip out.
Think if you're a London cop, two days (or whatever) after a second bombing attempt and you're in this situation with a guy acting apparently odd, running into a train car with a coat on. You have to make a decision FAST. They made a mistake, unfortunately. But I don't think they were trying to do the wrong thing.
And it is SAD for the guy, of course it is. There's nothing taking away from that. I just dont' know that, in this circumstance, you can really "blame" the cops at least to the extent that some people would seem to like to.
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Benbow
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Sat Jul-23-05 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #73 |
93. In the - very unusual and unprecedented circumstances - yes, absolutely |
skooooo
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Sat Jul-23-05 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #66 |
74. As a rule, I generally don't like cops... |
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...which makes it feel funny for me to be on the "other" side in this argument. I just feel like after what happened in London, the cops are doing the best they can. They're human and make mistakes. Doesn't make them evil. It's sad for everyone.
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beam me up scottie
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Sat Jul-23-05 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #74 |
87. It is a tragedy and blaming the police without any |
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evidence of their guilt is just as bad as blaming brown people without evidence of theirs. I guess some people believe cops aren't human.
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Bluebear
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Sat Jul-23-05 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #59 |
71. Well, I didn't call you a fascist :) |
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I am just saying you need all the facts before exonerating anyone. Remember that just yesterday we were told the man was DIRECTLY linked to the bombings.
Say the guy is from Haiti and doesn't speak English. "STOP POLICE!" being yelled could in his mind represent "Give me all your money!" or "Get out of my country!"
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skooooo
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Sat Jul-23-05 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #71 |
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you also need all the facts to condemn someone as well. So neither one of us have all the facts. If I was in London, and didn't speak English, I'd be damn sure I at least understood "Stop Police!"
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Benbow
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Sat Jul-23-05 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #40 |
62. There was a young British soldier in Northern Ireland who became trapped |
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by a group of so-called Nationalist women in the Falls Road, Belfast. "He didn't fire either a warning round or for effect and was prevented from making an escape.
A few minutes later someone came out of the crowd and placed two shots into his head. He died and the crowd cheered - even the children."
He had to make a decision based on the information available to him at the time, and unfortunately he seems to have made the wrong one.
I believe that the cops who shot the runaway Brazilian made the right decision - and they lived to go on helping keeping Londoners safe.
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Modem Butterfly
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Sat Jul-23-05 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #62 |
69. Keeping Londoners safe from unarmed, innocent men? |
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Those trigger-happy clowns are a much bigger threat to London than their victim.
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Sat Jul-23-05 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #69 |
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Modem Butterfly
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Sat Jul-23-05 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #95 |
111. How was he to know that? |
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Ever been mugged? Ever been held up? Ever been threatened with a gun?
Sometimes cooperation can cost your life.
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beam me up scottie
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Sat Jul-23-05 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #111 |
162. And how were the cops to know he was innocent ? |
Modem Butterfly
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Sat Jul-23-05 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #162 |
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I was also at Hartsfield (the Atlanta airport) in the days after 9/11 when a white guy jumped the barriers and ran down an up escalator and they evacuated the airport for hours. You may not remember that incident, because the GA National Guard held their fire.
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beam me up scottie
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Sat Jul-23-05 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #168 |
176. So they should have let him go ? |
mike_c
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Sat Jul-23-05 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #162 |
207. ever heard of the PRESUMPTION OF INNOCENCE...? |
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Oh yeah-- we don't do that anymore 'cause we've got a "war on terror" goin' on. :puke:
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Catrina
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Sat Jul-23-05 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #95 |
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admitedly, not necessarily because he was told to, or by his own intention, but rather by accident. Nevertheless, he did stop, and he's not alive today!
So, perhaps his instinct to run was correct! Once stopped, which it is your assertion is all the police wanted of him, whether by chance or in response to their requests, again, according to your assertion, there was no need for him to die, was there? Yet, he did!
However, I am more inclined to blame Blair and Bush as the main reason for this incident, having worked hard on creating a climate of fear to justify their illegal invasion of Iraq. Fear obliterates good judgement often. This is what they have done! And many will pay the price. This unfortunate man is just one more victim of their lies, as are the police who would have been better able to deal with it, had he in fact been a terrorist. All victims of Bush/Blair policies of fear, imo.
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H2O Man
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Sat Jul-23-05 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #62 |
114. You put things in quotes |
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but provide no source. I do feel bad for the young men from Britain who have suffered while serving in Ireland. The fact that they shouldn't be there, imposing an evil system on the people of Ireland, doesn't change the fact that they are victims, too.
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Benbow
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Sat Jul-23-05 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #114 |
125. It was in quotes because quoted from another forum |
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which is subscription-only. The person quoted was a journalist who was based in Northern Ireland in the early 1970s.
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H2O Man
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Sat Jul-23-05 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #125 |
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If you won't identify your source, you shouldn't attempt to make it look like it carries any particular accuracy or worth. It doesn't.
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chascarrillo
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Sat Jul-23-05 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #62 |
135. ...except for the innocent Londoner they killed |
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Apologies to that guy and all.
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H2O Man
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Sat Jul-23-05 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #135 |
142. Formal apologies, you know. |
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It means more from a man in a neck tie.
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Sat Jul-23-05 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #142 |
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H2O Man
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Sat Jul-23-05 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #164 |
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Another person -- not you -- had made what I think was a foolish statement about a formal apology. I think that is as poor of a choice of things to say as possible. It does not require one to be "paranoid" to find that type of thinking to be offensive. I believe that it is that type of thinking that will inflame passions in this situation. I can separate the things you are saying, even those that I disagree strongly with, from those that I think will inflame.
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beam me up scottie
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Sat Jul-23-05 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #205 |
208. I read your post above and I appreciate |
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your thoughts on the UK citizens and police.
It is a terrible time for them and they are not used to the level of violence we experience here on a daily basis.
I don't believe they will accept that racial profiling and taking away civil liberties is the solution.
That's what many Americans believe, unfortunately.
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Sat Jul-23-05 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #30 |
51. Yes, and I blame US foreign policy for giving Muslim extremists another |
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reason for bombing London. Our cops are having to deal with the fall-out of George Bush's military adventurism.
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Sat Jul-23-05 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #51 |
64. Thats true...but unfortunately, it's British foreign policy.. |
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too. Not just American. It's unfortunate that Blaire when along with Bush.
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SillyGoose
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Sat Jul-23-05 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #51 |
122. Seems like Blair went along with Bush's miltary adventurism, no? |
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Sat Jul-23-05 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #122 |
126. Contrary to the vocal opposition of several million Brits |
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Sat Jul-23-05 04:21 PM
Response to Reply #126 |
147. Millions of Americans opposed Bush's military adventurism as well. |
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Sat Jul-23-05 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #30 |
75. Who you gonna call........ |
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Sat Jul-23-05 04:35 PM
Response to Reply #6 |
163. I wouldn't call it murder. |
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More like an unfortunate combination of events with a tragic ending. The guy was in the wrong place at the wrong time; it also appears that intelligence was not his strong suit.
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baby_mouse
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Sat Jul-23-05 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #2 |
8. I think you're being a little bit |
KG
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Sat Jul-23-05 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #2 |
22. so, running from cops is punished by extra-judicial execution? |
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Edited on Sat Jul-23-05 03:19 PM by KG
nice.
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Sat Jul-23-05 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #22 |
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chascarrillo
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Sat Jul-23-05 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #29 |
143. Five shots in the head = execution in my book. |
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Maybe not yours, but please allow our feelings, 'kay?
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Sat Jul-23-05 04:38 PM
Response to Reply #143 |
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chascarrillo
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Sat Jul-23-05 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #166 |
181. Please point me to where I said that or apologize. |
beam me up scottie
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Sat Jul-23-05 05:02 PM
Response to Reply #181 |
189. I got your apology right here... |
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under the word execution in the dictionary
Maybe you can find it now that you managed to correct your spelling.
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Sat Jul-23-05 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #189 |
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beam me up scottie
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Sat Jul-23-05 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #202 |
206. Telling you to look up a word is "Trolling" ? |
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I suggest you take a break since you're violating DU rules.
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Bucky
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Sat Jul-23-05 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #2 |
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particularly the part about you being right. I put this death on the terrorists, too, whoever they are. London's dud second attack was an incredible stroke of luck, perhaps a sign that the terrorists left are kinda fuck ups. Or a normal statistically likely to occur snafu, an inevitable error when so many bombing attacks are going on. Whatever it is, when the local cops protecting a known target say stop, you gotta stop.
If he was wearing a baggy sweat shirt in July you gotta give the cops the benefit of the doubt. It's also commendable that the cops were so quick to exonerate the poor guy, rather than try, as I think our cops might, to continue to cast aspersions on the guy just to cover their asses.
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mike_c
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Sat Jul-23-05 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #24 |
197. well give them all medals, for christ's sake.... |
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They chased, shot, and killed an innocent man. In their zeal to prevent a crime from maybe happening, they killed someone who had done nothing wrong (unless you count running from armed men you've been following you down the street in a strange city). This is where the "war on terror" leads-- to a police state where the police murder the innocent to protect the state.
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mike_c
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Sat Jul-23-05 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #2 |
191. ummm-- any of those things actually a capital offense...? |
still_one
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Sat Jul-23-05 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #2 |
193. let's they had him incapacitated where he couldn't do anything |
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and then just fired 5 shots into his head
sounds reasonable
They murdered him, it is as simple as that
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tk2kewl
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Sat Jul-23-05 03:12 PM
Response to Original message |
3. i believe the cops were in plain clothes too |
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they might have just seemed like mean guys with guns claiming to be police
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Benbow
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Sat Jul-23-05 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #3 |
23. Not in the UK - remember we have different gun laws |
Modem Butterfly
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Sat Jul-23-05 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #23 |
46. Yeah, and bombs on the subway are unusual too |
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I think it's ridiculous to blame the victim in this situation.
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Benbow
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Sat Jul-23-05 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #46 |
65. If victim, then definitely self-selected victim |
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Sat Jul-23-05 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #23 |
57. yesterday i read that they were in plain clothes... not so? |
bluestateguy
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Sat Jul-23-05 03:14 PM
Response to Original message |
7. Here's what the spin will be |
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1. He did not follow police instructions. His being killed is, well, unfortunate, but he should have followed directions.
AND/OR
2. Well, he was a radical Muslim, and he must have sympathized with the bombers is some indirect way. He attended a meeting of radical Muslims once over 10 years ago!!!!
Don't shoot the messenger. I'm just saying that's how the spin will sound. Don't go expecting the angry white men of the world to go crying their beer over this case. To them it's just another dead "Sand Ni**er".
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Eric J in MN
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Sat Jul-23-05 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #7 |
11. We don't have all the facts. |
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Did they pull out their badges? Did they say they were the police?
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Taxloss
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Sat Jul-23-05 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #11 |
17. They shouted the standard formula: "Armed police! Get down!" |
theHandpuppet
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Sat Jul-23-05 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #17 |
41. According to the BBC News |
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It is believed the guy was Brazilian. Chances are he may not have been fluent in English, and that would also explain why he was wearing heavy clothing which may have seemed odd for the British summer.
Note to brown people, especially non-native English speakers: stay out of Britain. Any moves or apparel deemed "suspicious" may result in your execution.
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Sat Jul-23-05 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #41 |
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Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
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theHandpuppet
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Sat Jul-23-05 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #52 |
68. Yes, it does happen here every day |
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That's why we can recognize racism and injustice when we see it. Perhaps we were hoping that the Brits were just a wee bit better than us.
You can call what I said assholish if you want, but the truth hurts. The fact that we witness such injustice on a regular basis is not a defense.
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beam me up scottie
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Sat Jul-23-05 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #68 |
148. Truth? You stated that people will be executed in London for being brown. |
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Note to brown people, especially non-native English speakers: stay out of Britain. Any moves or apparel deemed "suspicious" may result in your execution."
The truth ? No, it's called paranoid hysteria and hate mongers love to spread it around.
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theHandpuppet
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Sat Jul-23-05 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #148 |
172. I said "may", not will |
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Don't play games of semantics with me, for you shall surely lose.
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Sat Jul-23-05 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #172 |
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theHandpuppet
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Sat Jul-23-05 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #178 |
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Sorry if the truth offends.
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beam me up scottie
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Sat Jul-23-05 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #194 |
201. No, it's a paranoid speculation |
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but I'm sure in your mind it's true. PCT's shouldn't be allowed in this forum.
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theHandpuppet
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Sat Jul-23-05 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #201 |
211. Here's some more "paranoia" for you |
Taxloss
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Sat Jul-23-05 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #41 |
56. There's "suspicious" and there's "stupid". |
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You're in a foreign, but civilised, country. In the middle of the day, in a built-up area, surrounded by people, armed people in plain clothes start chasing you and shouting. You don;t understand them. (It is also the day after a second wave of attempted suicide attacks - maybe that passed him by.)
What do you do?
a. Stop.
b. Run into a train station, jump the barriers, and dart onto a train.
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Modem Butterfly
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Sat Jul-23-05 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #41 |
60. I don't know about staying out of Britain, but staying off the tube... |
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...right now is probably wise.
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Benbow
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Sat Jul-23-05 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #60 |
101. Yes, because of the suicide bombers who escaped - remember those four |
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still at large. I can tell you that thousands of Londoners would LOVE to stay off the tube but they have no other way of getting to/from work - earning their living - and those four would-be suicide bombers are still free, to do it again and perhaps pull it off.
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Modem Butterfly
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Sat Jul-23-05 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #101 |
110. By all means then, killing unarmed innocent men is the answer |
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Come on. The police panicked and fucked this one up. The guy was in the wrong place at the wrong time and also panicked. But that doesn't make him guilty and it doesn't absolve the police in this instance.
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Sat Jul-23-05 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #110 |
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beam me up scottie
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Sat Jul-23-05 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #7 |
12. THis happpened in London |
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not Texas. I think you're projecting.
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Modem Butterfly
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Sat Jul-23-05 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #12 |
156. I was robbed at gunpoint in London once |
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I thought it was pretty ironic. All he got was some WAM (walking around money) and a maxed out VISA from me, but he got my companion's passport.
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beam me up scottie
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Sat Jul-23-05 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #156 |
169. Uh, okay. So then that makes it okay to accuse the Brits of |
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murder and conspiracy, which is what that poster just did.
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Modem Butterfly
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Sat Jul-23-05 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #169 |
173. I can't be responsible for posts that aren't my own |
Benbow
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Sat Jul-23-05 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #7 |
67. He was a Brazilian, so probably Roman Catholic |
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And, yes, if he wanted to maximise his chances of living - given the recent spate of bombings (the worst peacetime attack in 50 years) - he should have obeyed the command to do nothing more complicated than Stop.
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theHandpuppet
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Sat Jul-23-05 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #67 |
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On the LBN forum you assumed that since the guy was a Brazilian he must be a cocaine dealer.
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Benbow
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Sat Jul-23-05 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #77 |
102. The two things are not mutually exclusive |
theHandpuppet
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Sat Jul-23-05 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #102 |
171. And you still haven't stated the basis for your assumption... |
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... that because the guy was Brazilian he was probably a cocaine dealer.
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Eric J in MN
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Sat Jul-23-05 03:14 PM
Response to Original message |
9. Wasn't there a case like this in NY in which plain clothes |
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police officers tried to arrest an immigrant and he thought it was a holdup and pulled out his wallet and the cops thought it was a gun and shot him many times?
About 7 years ago.
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beam me up scottie
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Sat Jul-23-05 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #9 |
16. This was nothing like that |
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and London is nothing like NY or LA. Shootings are not a daily occurance.
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Eric J in MN
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Sat Jul-23-05 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #16 |
39. plain clothes police, confusion, innocent man killed by the cops |
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Edited on Sat Jul-23-05 03:22 PM by Eric J in MN
seems smilar to me
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Sat Jul-23-05 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #39 |
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Catrina
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Sat Jul-23-05 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #39 |
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'innocent man of color'.
In NYC, while Giuliani was Mayor, several incidents of innocent people of color being abused or shot at by police occurred. Giuliani always stood by the police in these cases. There have been none that I know of since he is no longer mayor. I hope it continues that way.
Giuliani it seems, is now in the 'security' business. He was in London when the 7/7 bombings occurred. With his defense of a 'shoot first ask questions later, especially if the suspect is dark skinned' type street justice, I hope the London police have not been receiving any advice from his security company.
It is commendable that the London police have cleared the man's name as quickly as possible, ending any possible harrassment of his family or the further pain they might suffer were his name to have been associated with the bombings there.
To clear the name of Amado Diablo, in NY, by contrast, it took a major effort on his behalf, before it became clear that he was completely innocent of any crime.
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beam me up scottie
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Sat Jul-23-05 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #92 |
183. You've got to be kidding me. You link this to Giuliani and the PCT? |
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Let me guess where you've been getting your information...
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Paradise
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Sat Jul-23-05 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #9 |
98. 1998 - amadu dialo - shot 41 times n/t |
Benbow
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Sat Jul-23-05 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #98 |
105. If 5 shots is an "over-reaction", what does that make 41 shots? |
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Pot meet kettle; kettle, this is pot.
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SillyGoose
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Sat Jul-23-05 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #9 |
108. Yes... Amadou Diallo was shot and killed by NYPD in 1999 |
_testify_
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Sat Jul-23-05 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #108 |
188. Okay so let me get this straight... |
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It's not the cops fault that an unarmed brown man was shot to death in London.
You prove that, of course, by referencing how an unarmed brown man was shot to death in NYC in probably the WORST case of police brutality in New York City history.
Oh yeah, I can see that. Amadou Diallo was shot to death because NY cops mistakenly thought he was a serial rapist. That's bad.
Jean Charles de Menezes was shot to death because London cops mistakenly thought he was a terrorist. That's okay.
Wait...maybe you guys should try to explain that one again.
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riverwalker
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Sat Jul-23-05 03:22 PM
Response to Original message |
36. death penalty for being stupid now? |
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If so, most of the country is in big trouble. If people are condoning death penalty and instant justice for dressing and acting weird then we will all be dead. Lord help us.
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candy
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Sat Jul-23-05 03:25 PM
Response to Original message |
Bluebear
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Sat Jul-23-05 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #47 |
53. Oh that post is a big surprise. |
LibertyorDeath
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Sat Jul-23-05 03:27 PM
Response to Original message |
54. "accidentally" maybe, maybe not. |
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I wouldn't take their word for it.
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Gloria
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Sat Jul-23-05 03:48 PM
Response to Original message |
100. I'm still wondering why they didn't aim for the legs to take him down...if |
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he were a terrorist suspect, they could maybe get information from him, no? Wouldn't they want to do that?
(I understand not shooting at the body for fear of a bomb strapped on, but the lower legs might be less likely to have a bomb attached if you were trying to move quickly. And probably harder to hide on a leg if it was somewhat bulky.)
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Modem Butterfly
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Sat Jul-23-05 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #100 |
120. I'm surprised they hit his head five times |
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The head is a small target, and when the target is in motion, it is very easy to miss. It suggests to me that the shooter either has had extensive sniper training, or that the victim was very close or not running. Or some combination of all three.
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Benbow
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Sat Jul-23-05 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #120 |
129. Now I know that you have not read any of the reports |
Bluebear
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Sat Jul-23-05 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #129 |
187. About his "running" from the police.... |
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An interesting post from another board....
It's also possible he wasn't aware he was being chased and was simply running to catch the tube. They said on the news that he was on his way to work. The police have told so many lies about the whole thing I simply can't believe their side of the story any more.
Shooting the man was not the mistake - lying about the circumstances was.
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beam me up scottie
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Sat Jul-23-05 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #187 |
192. How do you know the police told lies ? |
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Show me the evidence that proves they lied.
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Bluebear
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Sat Jul-23-05 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #192 |
204. Well I can't get in the head of whoever posted that |
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As I said, it is a post from another board. But it is interesting that so many say he was "running" from the police, and my point is that many people run for the tube.
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beam me up scottie
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Sat Jul-23-05 05:23 PM
Response to Reply #204 |
209. There's a lot of evidence to sort through |
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and so many witnesses gave conflicting accounts.
I do believe that Londoners will demand the truth and I wish our citizens would do the same when someone is shot here.
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Sat Jul-23-05 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #100 |
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WinkyDink
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Sat Jul-23-05 03:53 PM
Response to Original message |
107. Terrorism didn't just start, you know |
mdmc
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Sat Jul-23-05 03:57 PM
Response to Original message |
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who's there?
Amado.
Amado who?
The next time the police say freeze, AM-A-DO what they say.
(A NYC cop told me this "joke" after Amado Diallo got shot up).
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Anarcho-Socialist
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Sat Jul-23-05 04:21 PM
Response to Original message |
146. We're thin on the facts at the moment |
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The only two things that I can discern from this is:
1. The police f****d up royally by killing someone innocent that they thought was related to terrorist attacks. 2. The Brazilian man decided to ignore shouts of "Stop! Armed Police" and ran towards the London Underground station, leapt over turnstyles and headed towards a populated train - in what can be described as a pretty dumb decision.
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Taxloss
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Sat Jul-23-05 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #146 |
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But hear it told here ...
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chascarrillo
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Sat Jul-23-05 04:24 PM
Response to Original message |
153. Statistics on violence involving firearms in the UK |
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/3195908.stmRead, then all of you saying that "hey, the guy had no reason to flee from plainclothes policemen 'cause no-one has guns in London", feel free to apologize.
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moondust
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Sat Jul-23-05 04:27 PM
Response to Original message |
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do not go around shooting people. Consider that a constant.
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chascarrillo
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Sat Jul-23-05 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #155 |
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Edited on Sat Jul-23-05 04:53 PM by chascarrillo
Man shot by police was unarmed: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/460116.stmShot man's family demand apology: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1444512.stmMan shot by police hunting David Martin: http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/january/14/newsid_2530000/2530649.stmThree different incidents. The last is especially lovely: A man has been critically injured in a police ambush in a west London street in what may be a case of mistaken identity.
Witnesses said marksmen surrounded a car in a traffic jam in Pembroke Road in Earls Court and opened fire.
The driver was shot several times in the head and body.
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moondust
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Sat Jul-23-05 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #179 |
184. So how does that compare |
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Edited on Sat Jul-23-05 05:30 PM by Xap
to police shootings in the U.S. and other "western democracies"? I'd guess probably near the bottom, not close to being in the same league with the wild wild U.S. There are really only two leagues in these gun-related issues: the U.S. and everybody else.
You've got one in 1999, one in 2001, and one in 2003. Three in 5 years (or more)? Is that it? And how many of those victims deserved a nomination for the Darwin awards?
The police had reason to suspect the guy in the first place and if I'm not mistaken bystanders confirmed their suspicions when they saw the guy wearing a conscpiciously heavy coat.
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spanone
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Sat Jul-23-05 04:28 PM
Response to Original message |
157. Wear a coat-----eat some lead. |
Modem Butterfly
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Sat Jul-23-05 04:49 PM
Response to Original message |
177. Mods, this thread is useless, please lock it or delete it |
KG
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Sat Jul-23-05 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #177 |
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i've learned alot of rather interesting things on this thread today! :eyes:
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Bluebear
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Sat Jul-23-05 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #182 |
185. You said a mouthful. |
still_one
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Sat Jul-23-05 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #182 |
still_one
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Sat Jul-23-05 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #177 |
198. why, it is an important thread you started |
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it represents what happens when people value security of liberty
you have neither security or liberty
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leesa
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Sat Jul-23-05 05:29 PM
Response to Original message |
212. Well, we went after the wrong fucking COUNTRY...TWICE!! |
Moderator
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Sat Jul-23-05 05:51 PM
Response to Original message |
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This thread has run its course.
DU Moderator
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Fri Apr 19th 2024, 08:00 AM
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