Serious question: What are Clark's progressive accomplishments?

[FubarFly]

Clark supporters tell me he is a progressive. Prove it. Please list the things which he has done, not just said, which can be considered progressive. Please be thorough, this will be on the final exam.

[Speck Tater]

1. Repost of some simple questions for Clark that bear on this

He sits on the boards of 5 companies.

How many of those 5 companies are unionized?

How many of those companies provide decent health insurance all the way down to the lowest tier workers?

How many jobs do each of those companies outsource to Mexico and China?

[Solomon]

110. He's a four star general who decided to run as a democrat.

Is that not good enough for you? Damn. You guys are killing me. Everybody on the "team" should be welcomed because each of them brings something to the arena. People need to really chill out on who the eventual nominee will be. Providence will give us the one.

In the meantime, let's enjoy and appreciate those brave souls who have stepped forward on our behalf.

[Mairead]

148. "those brave souls who have stepped forward on our behalf."

Sol, I think at this point all we know about Clark is that he stepped forward. Do we really know yet on whose behalf?

[JI7]

2. more liberal than al sharpton

seriously, i have heard that wes clark is more liberal than al sharpton. maybe that's why sharpton gave him a welcome at the debates.

[dfong63]

78. the question was about "accomplishment" not "attitude"

[MIMStigator]

3. Scaring the sh*t out of the entire Repug party n/t

n/t

[JVS]

4. Does that make Bin Laden a progressive too

[roughsatori]

14. That was LOL funny

I think the corporatists like Clark so I'm not so sure about his "scariness."

[tokenlib]

5. good one...LOL!

They are scared indeed.

Seriously, I'd like an answer to this question too. But I'm just not sure how much "progressive" activity one can engage in in the apolitical military realm.

Clark has mentioned that he did try to help improve the lives of military families. Perhaps we can find out some information along those lines.

[janekat]

103. I LIKE that one a lot n/t

[FubarFly]

6. Cool. This is a link to Cocoa's thread.

Clark did some volunteer work.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=417879

[KG]

7. well, he has none.

being fresh from the military, hardly a progressive organization, he has hardly had time to build up a progressive CV.

so far, his supporters can only point to opinions and positions.

but none of this matters really. 'electability' is their theme, and that is as hard to prove as his progressism.

[FubarFly]

8. The silence cetainly does seem damning.

But I still have hope.

[union_maid]

11. Not really

He's been a general and not a politician. Progressive accomplishments in your terms have probably not been an option. In my view, however, the strong criticism of the way the war in Iraq was being prosecuted was a clear progressive accomplishment. Bush is now under fire about it and because of all the voices, Clarks included, that offered intelligent and informed criticism, it's taking much more of a toll on the administration than it would if he'd gone unquestioned. When he stands up and gives a speech saying that dissent and questioning authority are patriotic expressions, that's a progressive accomplishment because of who he is and where he's been. And of course, he did file the amicus brief in the Supreme Court in favor of affirmative action and has been a strong supporter of affirmative action in the military.

[FubarFly]

13. Thanks for your honesty.

He filed the amicus brief, what was the result?

[Pastiche423]

16. I believe the silence seems damning

because it is difficult to find something that is not there.

I, too, would like to hear about his progressive accomplishments.

As the witty and wonderful Molly Ivins has said...

"Don't listen to what he says. Watch what he does."

Or in clark's case, Don't listen to what he says, take a look at what he's done.

[FubarFly]

21. Yup. That's my number #1 worry about Clark.

His forthcoming policies are suspiciously liberal.

If it can be proved that he consistantly held those beliefs, and isn't just being an opportunist, then I will significantly relax. I'll still vote for him if he get's the nomination, but my blood pressure might be less of a problem.

[Mairead]

149. "Look at what he's *done*" sounds like a good test

and "look at what he's done not what he *says* he's done" is a better one.

[FubarFly]

9. Even if he has none., an explanation would be nice.

But it has been mentioned that he endorsed Max Cleland. No one has any information on that?

[Cleve Steamer]

19. Yes, he endorsed Cleland in 2002

Here are two links for the endorsement:

http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/06/15/clark.president/

http://www.nationalreview.com/miller/miller112702.asp (ugh)

[Cleve Steamer]

10. Human rights, cleaner energy

Here are two items. Your mileage may vary on whether either one is "progressive."

1. Clark lobbied for military intervention to stop genocide in both Kosovo and Rwanda (unsuccessfully in the latter case).

2. In accordance with his environmentalist bent as well as his belief that the U.S. should have zero reliance on foreign oil, he's pushed for cleaner energy. He's Chairman of the Board at WaveCrest Laboratories, which develops and sells efficient electric propulsion systems: http://www.wavecrestlabs.com/news/pr042103.html

[FubarFly]

12. Thank you.

Do you have a link for the first item? I would like to bookmark this thread for future reference.

[Cleve Steamer]

15. This is the best I could find on short notice

http://pub73.ezboard.com/fwesleyclark200463811frm7.showMessage?topicID=103.topic

The link is a re-post of an article from The New Republic. Here's an excerpt:

As he writes in his memoir, Waging Modern War, "One of life's greatest gifts, I've found, is the opportunity to fight for what's right." He adds, "There is so much more to be done." Throughout the '90s, he bridled at U.S. inaction, particularly in Rwanda, where rampaging Hutu militiamen murdered 800,000 Tutsi in 100 days. The response from Washington was worse than nothing: Secretary of State Warren Christopher urged a "full, orderly withdrawal" of U.N. peacekeepers, lest the United States be called upon to relieve the rump force, a prospect the Pentagon adamantly opposed. Clark, then Shalikashvili's policy director, was ashamed. He later observed to author Samantha Power, "The Pentagon is always going to be the last to want to intervene." In Waging Modern War, Clark implies that the military dishonored itself "when we stood by as nearly a million Africans were hacked to death."

[FubarFly]

18. Thanks for taking the time to find the link.

If you find any more info, please let me know.

[Mairead]

151. I'd agree that standing by while people are killed is utterly dishonorable

Now the question is -- whose dishonor, political leaders, mil leaders, soldiers, who?

[roughsatori]

17. Does lobbying for the company whose board you sit on

count as progressive or self-interest? I suppose it is possible to be both at the same time. But I thought you were looking for a more "pure" example of progressive action.

[FubarFly]

20. I'm going to use this thread as reference.

So I'll try to be fair.

The idea for the company was good. But you're right, in and of itself, lobbying for the company is not necessarily progressive.

[Cleve Steamer]

28. It's a little of both, of course, but . . .

Upon his retirement from the army, he could easily have used his Pentagon connections to far worse (and more lucrative) ends. As he said in last night's town hall meeting, he didn't want to sell weapons like a lot of retired brass. Instead, he chose to join WaveCrest Labs and use his name to promote something beneficial.

More on WaveCrest from Ars Technica: http://www.evworld.com/databases/storybuilder.cfm?storyid=520

(Incidentally, I have no financial or other interests in WaveCrest Labs. :))

[Mairead]

150. The same question came to my mind.

I agree it's possible to be both, so the question is: what was it in this case. Do the company's products qualify is highly beneficial?

[Cocoa]

26. #1 is very good in my book

intervention in Rwanda jibes with my idea of what might possibly justify our military spending. Failure to intervene in that case makes it very hard to justify it from my point of view.

#2 is not as impressive to me. James Woolsey seems to have a similar role in a similar company, and I don't consider Woolsey to be an environmentalist.

http://www.changingworldtech.com/news-2.html

[sandnsea]

22. Here's one thing

People seem to be forgetting that soldiers have families and that the base commander has to deal with the needs of those families. This testimony doesn't address education over all, but it shows that he has given local education at least some attention. I'm not sure that every base commander would find the needs of the local schools important. I suspect this is where we'll find Clark's long term views, in how he managed his bases and what he supported for the families.

http://edworkforce.house.gov/hearings/107th/edr/impaid110801/clark.htm

[FubarFly]

25. Excellent. Thank you.

More information on how he helped soldiers and their families would be highly appreciated.

[sandnsea]

27. I'm not for Clark

I was just pointing out that there is a way to see where he has stood on some of these issues. Hopefully some Clark voters will get out there and google this stuff up or their campaign will gather it. I just want to make an informed decision and I think a person's record is where one needs to look. We can know whether Clark was progressive by changes he really chose to push in his career. We don't have to just take his word for it, that's what I'm trying to bring to this discussion.

[FubarFly]

30. I'm surprised thay haven't googled this stuff already.

I agree with you %100.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

23. He Lead The Camapign Against Ethnic Cleansing

Sounds progressive to me....

[FubarFly]

24. The motives for the Kosovo war are debatable.

Do you have any information of things he did during the war that were positive?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

29. I Don't Think The Indigenous Kosovars or Bosnians

think it was debatable....

Do you have any information of things he did during the war that were positive?

He won it...

Here's a little advice....

Instead of trying to diminish Clark why don't you focus your energy in a positive vein and come up with ways that Howard Dean can close the fourteen point gap between him and *....

Peace 03

Brian

[FubarFly]

31. I am not trying to diminish Clark.

Everything you say that you think is positive about him I will take seriously.

[JasonBerry]

33. Ask the Serbs !! Clark was their Killer from the Air

Ask the people of SERBIA!

Since when do progressives think it okay to wage war on the people of a country because we don't like their leader? Isn't that what we all just despised in Iraq?

Wesley Clark waged a sick war from the air on the people of Yugoslavia. Using depleted uranium and cluster bombs, Clark hit civilian targets without mercy.....always claiming they were "accidents." Wes Clark is a man who wouldn't know honesty if it hit him in the face. Harsh - but true. A lot of people are beginning to see this as it relates to his opportunistic political campaign. Many of us saw it during that war when he was the arrogant, lying General who bombed the people of Serbia for 70 plus days (after saying the air war wouldn't last but a few days - a week at most!)...

Or.....do SERBS not matter?

[Pepperbelly]

43. LOL

Why is it with you that ONLY the Serbs matter?

I guarantee that ethnic Albanians, Kosovars, and Bosnians have far different views.

edited for spelling ... ouch.

[RandomUser]

48. This is Fun!

lol...ok, admittedly I haven't been on DU for long, but this is hillarious. You did mention that your debate with Jasonberry goes back quite a while (months? years?), so I probably missed most of it. But this ongoing debate between the two of you is so entertaining!

He comes out with some slanted anti-clark comment based flimsy material that's actually not incriminating if you understand the context, and then you proceed to punch holes in his logic and show him how he's wrong and actually spinning stuff. Then he does it again. And then you punch another hole in his logic. Rinse and repeat. It's like watching someone playing whack-a-mole! With the mole running frantically trying to find something that will stay solid. lol. How far back does this rivalry between you two go? It's hillarious. And the more you call him on his logical flaws and strawmen, the more frantic his tone gets! lol.

[Pepperbelly]

49. months ... nt

[RandomUser]

52. Well, you've convinced me

that I should take JasonBerry's words with a grain of salt, especially after seeing his logic crumple so many times. I'm new to DU, so wouldn't have known. Thanks.

[Pepperbelly]

53. Jason's ok ...

and he has probably researched more about Wesley than the Amen-crowd that chime in on each bash-fest.

Peace to you and to Jason.

[lostnfound]

141. that was a smart or classy answer

or both.

[FubarFly]

54. *sigh*

If your going to try to discredit another DU'er, please do it on another thread. Personally, I share some of JasonBerry's concerns, and I will like to see them constructively answered. Thus, this thread.

[RandomUser]

58. Apologies

I'm relatively new to DU, and found it hillarious that the two of them were jumping from thread to thread with the same arguments, and then to learn that those arguments were months long.

[Pepperbelly]

60. now you've done it ...

Who died and left you in charge? When you post a thread, it is an INVITATION for people to post their OPINIONS. If you don't like the opinions, good for you but you have no right to tell people what they may or may not post. The writer has an absolute right to post whatever the fuck he/she wants to post.

In addition, those remarks you made, along with your sig line, reveal that you are anything but a person objectively pursuing truth in this. I have checked out your posts from thread to thread and I am not certain for a moment that I buy your being some objective arbiter of what is accurate or positive or even progressive.

If you share Jason's concerns, then make your argument and present your evidence.

[FubarFly]

62. Sorry you feel that way.

I never claimed to be an arbitor or an authority. I just want to find the truth. Believe me or not, it really doesn't matter.

I was sticking up for JasonBerry just then because I thought the treatment he received was wrong. I make no apologies for that.

[Pepperbelly]

66. sticking up for someone does not ...

entail suppression of speech. Defend him if you want but some of us take freedom of speech very seriously. While you are free to TRY, I am just as free to call you on it. I defended freedom of speech and the US Constitution while I was in the military and still take it very seriously.

Dissent IS patriotic. Repression is not.

[FubarFly]

129. The funny thing here is I was sticking up

for JasonBerry's freedom of speech.

I guess dissent and repression are in the eyes of the beholder.

Still, I was a little quick to jump on another poster.

And for that I do apologize.

[RandomUser]

74. For the record

I do believe Pepper trumped Jason logic in each of their discussions that I've seen. It might have been inappropriate or not to post my honest reactions to it, a moment of hilarity at the types of logic used and the dynamic between the two of thm. But I'm not starting a campaign to go around smearing Jason, regardless of what you might think, and I respect Pepper's point that Jason has done much research. Apologies for any misunderstandings.

[Pepperbelly]

80. Jason's biggest problem is that ...

the facts don't cut his way. It is hard to win an argument when that happens.

[Justice]

142. Clark Was Not Their Killer

He was a general carrying out orders. He tried to get ground troops or helicopters to minimize casualties - but Clinton was worried about US casualties. When they finally brought in ground troops, the war end almost immediately.

[Mairead]

152. "He was a general carrying out orders."

I don't think that works. The general commanding gives the orders. The means to the end is left up to that GOC, so if that person decides to use, say, saturation bombardment against sparse targets, the blood from the extensive 'collateral damage' is primarily on his/her hands, and only secondarily on the hands of his/her civilian bosses.

[Orangepeel]

36. I don't think this thread is an attempt to "diminish Clark"

I think it is an excellent thread and parallels a question I asked here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=415617#415702

(A very nice DUer named "Clark Can WIN" has promised to dig up some specifics and get back to me)

If General Clark is as progressive as he sounds on stage (and I really hope that he is), there have to be concrete examples of actions that he took in his long and distinguished career that reflect it (particularly in regard to human rights and women's issues, given what he was in charge of)

[FubarFly]

37. Yeah, this thread will help Clark if we take it seriously.

Thanks for the endorsement and link. :-)

[Clark Can WIN]

92. OK orangepeel :-) I found something for you

This is not light reading. http://armedservices.house.gov/testimony/106thcongress/99-03-17clark.htm

This is a LONG REPORT that Wesley Clark submitted to congress in 1998. In it, about 3/4 of the way down he pushes the congress for better education for USEUCOM kids of service members including more money for teachers, programs based education, more money for arts music and athletics, more money for vocational training and college prep, more couselors and special needs teachers.

Asks for uniformity of medical and dental coverage with a more standardized process for transfer.


Quality of Life

"The judgement, creativity, and fortitude of our people will remain the key to success in future joint operations."

Joint Vision 2010

Our most precious resource is the service member and his or her family. Quality of life (QOL) is one of my very top theater priorities, as it is inextricably linked to readiness, retention, the reinforcement of service core values, healthy family life, high morale and mission accomplishment.

The quality of our housing, medical care, schools, religious services, public facilities, services and recreation activities define the American standard of living. The expectation of the DoD family, serving across the vast USEUCOM Theater, is no different.

On womens issues that he has had opportunity to take action on I found this blurb

"• In the early 1980s, he proactively tackled spousal abuse as an army commander with a forward-thinking assessment of the demands of the modern family. (Source: War in a Time of Peace, by David Halberstam)"

I am sure he had to deal with the issue while in command, and I hope to be able to find more for you on it in the future. Tonight, I am tired. Long day.

I hope this is useful to you, and I enjoyed talking to you. So much sniping and screaming in DU. Good to exchange info in a reasonable & constructive manner with someone for a change. I have always liked Dean as well, just happen to like Clark a little more.

Cheers :toast:

[Orangepeel]

93. Thanks, Clark --

those are very good things and make me feel a WHOLE lot better.

Thanks! :toast: to you to!

[lostnfound]

140. For debate on Kosovo, read Parenti's book 'To Kill A Nation'

I don't know whether it is an accurate portrayal, but it is consistent and plausible in context with post-WW2 American history as a whole.

Clark supporters shouldn't be annoyed by this thread; it is an opportunity. I for one am reading it with great HOPE of finding more to like about Clark. Excellent idea for a thread.

Rwanda was a disaster, one of the rare instances we should have done something. I think Clark made a good call on that one.

Kosovo I'm not so sure about.

[Cocoa]

32. what do you mean when you call that progressive?

As I recall, organizations and publications that are generally called "progressive" pretty uniformly opposed the Kosovo intervention.

By "progressive" do you mean "good"?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

39. My Fealty Is To Do Doing What Is Right

Not what makes Noam Chomsky and Alexander Cockburn happy....

Slobodan Milosevic was waging a war of genocide against the indigenous Bosnians and Kosovars....

Forced relocation, the use of rape as a military and political tool, mass executions....

The only difference between Milosevic and Hitler were targets and means.....


What would you have done?

Let Slobo wipe out the indigenous Kosovars and Bosnians?


It stopped genocide....

on edit-Howard Dean is on the record as supporting the operations in Kosovo and Bosnia...

[Cocoa]

45. well, I thought this thread was about the ideology

Plenty of opportunity to say one likes Clark, but I took the question to mean why do people use the particular word "progressive."

Regarding Chomsky, I wouldn't call him a progressive, I'd call him a radical, not pejoratively, just descriptively. I don't know about Cockburn, he edits Counterpunch doesn't he? I don't find very much useful there these days.

To me, Clark seems to be the most conservative candidate by far, not meaning he's bad, and admitting I don't know all that much about him.

I think it was a very excellent question to ask people that call him a progressive, what do they mean exactly.

[Pepperbelly]

34. he did volunteer work with inner-city kiddos ...

before going to Oxford.

Does that count?

[FubarFly]

35. Absolutely!

Do you have a link?

[Pepperbelly]

38. ok

-snip-

Clark is a 1966 graduate of the United States Military Academy at West Point, New York, where he graduated first in his class. After a brief stint in New York City working in the national poverty program, Clark was a Rhodes Scholar at Oxford University from August of 1966 until 1968, studying Philosophy, Politics and Economics.

http://paforclark.com/bio.htm

[FubarFly]

40. Do you know what the program is called?

How long he stayed? Or what he did there?

[Pepperbelly]

41. nope ... nt

[DemocratSinceBirth]

42. This Is Like Final Exams

NT

[FubarFly]

44. Hehe. Sorry about that.

But if we're going to be digging for dirt on candidates, we may as well get a little gold out of it as well.

[Mairead]

153. Well, if he graduated the Point in June, and was at Oxford in August

I'd say he spent about 30 days, tops, in the poverty program.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

46. Thanks for asking the questions...

Walking the talk is vitally important to me, and I would like to see instants where Gen. Clark has been doing so.

I'll be watching this thread for the responses.

[Cleve Steamer]

47. More on the environment

During a luncheon for Clark two weeks ago at the New York offices of Rolling Stone magazine, an editor pressed Clark on his environmental background -- whereupon the would-be prez flashed a big smile, rubbed his hands together, and beamed as he talked about the "hands-on" environmental experience he had gotten in the U.S. Army. (Rolling Stone is running a transcript of Clark's luncheon address in its next issue.) He launched into a vignette about being the first commander to catch an oil drip coming off tanks, averting groundwater pollution. Also, he said, he led the effort to keep soldiers from harming the threatened desert tortoise, which has the unique problem of peeing every time it is touched and then dying from dehydration. (Clark used the phrase "going to the bathroom," which was tender, but, in the case of most tortoises, not technically an option.)

http://www.gristmagazine.com/muck/muck092403.asp

[FubarFly]

50. Good stuff.

Poor little guy. :hurts:

[Cleve Steamer]

51. Not so unique, actually!

"... the threatened desert tortoise, which has the unique problem of peeing every time it is touched."

I believe Tucker Carlson suffers from the same malady.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

55. If I was the teacher's aide in this class grading the paper...

I'd have to give the student an F. I've got an open mind but the lack of response is damning. I'll bookmark in the hope that I'm wrong.

[FubarFly]

56. Right now it gets an "I" n/t

[Pepperbelly]

57. not much on reading before grading?

many good things posted here yet you choose to pretend there is none?

Why is that?

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

59. Didn't say there was nothing. There are two things basically.

I'm not saying it's over. I'll wait for more. Let's say "Incomplete."

I'm honestly open to the info. Any other candidate could fill 25 paragraphs of progressive accomplishments. I'll give it more time. Sorry for making a decision too early.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

64. What Are

any of the candidate's progressive accomplishments besides passing legislation....

Eliminate legislation and Holy Joe is the most "progressive candidate" since he went to register African American folks during Freeedom Summer....

He who defines the debate often wins the debate....

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

65. Besides passing or signing legislation?

Hmmm. Good question.

That's like asking what a school teacher's qualifications are, besides how well they teach.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

67. How Much Legislation Did Grant, Eisenhower, Washington Pass

before they became president?

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

68. None.

Washington couldn't have. So, of course, that's rediculous.

They were all war heroes, elected after our three greatest times of conflict: Revolutionary, Civil and WWII. They were all under intense scrutiny for 3-5 years running.

Do Kosovo and Clark meet that criteria?

:shrug: You tell me.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

71. GW didn't have the opportunity to pass legislation

And neither did Ike or Grant....


Clark served when he served....


We don't know how he would have performed in different eras....

That's like saying Rocky Marciano was a better boxer because he beat Joe Louis and Muhummad Ali never did....

Or

It's like saying Muhummad Ali is a better boxer than Rocky Marciano because he beat George Foreman and Joe Frazier and Rocky Marciano never did.....

He met the challenge he was presented....

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

72. What are Clark's progressive accomplishments?

n/t

[DemocratSinceBirth]

73. His Best Progressive Accomplishment Is Yet To Come....

Ending Bush's Reign of Terror.....

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

75. And that pretty much sums up this thread. n/t

[DemocratSinceBirth]

77. Can You Think Of A Greater Progressive Accomplishment

or gift to the nation?

[dfong63]

79. yeah, he could help Dean get elected

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

81. Yes. Something based in reality as opposed to speculation. n/t

[FubarFly]

61. Well, I'm off to work now.

Thanks to everyone for participating and making this a constructive thread.

I'll check in again when I get back.

Peace. :-)

[Padraig18]

63. He instituted...

... the first PRO-ACTIVE policy on spousal abuse in the US military!

[OKNancy]

69. Hate to kick this thread

but I've been gone all day and I just know you all want to read what I have to say. Sorry I don't have a link, I'll look it up later but Clark and his wife Gert were know for working with the military families. Also the Hispanic soldiers loved him especially because he is fluent in Spanish.

I do have these two stories.
--------
http://www.katv.com/news/stories/0903/104079.html

Little Rock - Even before Clark announced his candidacy, many Hispanic groups showed their support for the retired general through Internet sites.

Organizers of "Hispanics for Clark" say throughout his military career, Clark fought to improve the living conditions, health care and education of military men and women, many of which were Hispanics. Hispanic supporters say as president, Clark will fight to improve the living conditions for all Americans. "He’s also very interested in increasing health care throughout the country. That's something that affects Hispanics a little more than the general population. A lot of Hispanics simply don't have health care."


-------
Clark's early efforts pique Hispanics' interest

(09-25) 15:35 PDT LITTLE ROCK, Ark. (AP) --

With a strong military background and fluency in Spanish, retired Gen. Wesley Clark's presidential campaign is positioning itself to appeal to Hispanic voters who have growing influence in key battleground states.
more at:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/news/archive/2003/09/25/state1835EDT7654.DTL
-------------

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

70. No problem. This thread needs to be kicked.

So I'll kick it again.

:kick:

[salin]

76. Thank you

and be glad you kicked it up. There are many people like me who want to learn more - and are a bit nervous by having to only rely on words and policy statements (look at what the current whcrooks can say- which has nothing to do with their actions). It is nice to get glimpses of actions that build a pattern of beliefs and behaviors that give more of a sense of consistency to the positions.

To the person above who chided that most candidate would have pages... I would state that a political context is different than any other professional context (lots of opportunities to work on such things).

To anyone who would believe that a career in the military (or other nonpolitical field) shouldn't be expected to have any track record I would disagree. Many people over a long period of time find avocations (beyond work) or initiatives that they push within work that reflect the types of beliefs held.

THe glimpses of what has come up on this thread are reassuring. Gives a more full picture - and as I said before - gives a sense of consistency to the positions (as in - he has done things within his work life that are consistent with being supportive of such issues.)

[Flying_Pig]

83. I am one of those people Salin.....

I especially want to hear more on his stance concerning I/P - ME issues, whether or not he supports Sharon/Likud/PNAC/AIPAC/JINSA/JDL's vision of Israeli democracy and Palestinian issues, and also more on his thoughts about the "military-industrial" complex (is his philosophy more like Eisenhower's, ....or Tommy Franks'?). Until I see or hear answers to those questions, I remain on the fence as far as Clark is concerned.

[salin]

95. Threads like these are good

because it gets people to try to search for more 'evidence' than just words. And on several items folks have been able to find evidence. Granted it is different than what one have for career politicians - but in some ways it is much more authentic. The issues of the day have grown so desperate that getting a glimpse of where the candidate really falls is important. In recent years I have grown more weary of words alone being evidence. These are cynical times. Perhaps some of the committed who are doing some of the digging - will find indications/glimpses through actions or initiatives that might give us a better indication (to either make us more comfortable - or more alarmed) of where the General might fall on such issues.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

82. Just so all the info gets accumulated, kick.

:kick:

[KittyWampus]

84. Implementing Child Care On Bases For Military Families

During the NH Town Hall meeting, Clark got a question about Day Care.

He said he and his wife helped establish Day Care on bases for military families.

He wasn't bullshiting because he went into detail in a way that simply wouldn't have been feigned.

For instance, he spoke of training military spouses to become Day Care workers... as opposed to professional Day Care centers which might have more equipement but would cost more money than military families get paid.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

85. Got a link?

Thanks in advance. :D

[KittyWampus]

86. It Was On CSpan Twice

So if there's an internet link to that footage- There you go! :)

By the way, this is a great idea... but as a potentially enthusiastic Clark supporter... I have to say that this information should be gathered and presented by the CLARK CAMPAIGN. So I hope that he and they come up with a verifiable list of Progerssive Accomplishments.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

87. From the original post:

Please list the things which he has done, not just said...


To your second point, so do I.

[KittyWampus]

88. HE ACTUALLY HELPED IMPLEMENT DAYCARE

Actions not just words... unless you want to call him a liar who made that stuff up... in which case he's stupid becasue this could be easily debunked.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

89. There was no Day Care before Clark?

If he helped implement Day Care in the military I'm sure someone wrote a story about it. I just want to see that story. No big whoop.

[KittyWampus]

90. My Take- Which May Be Wrong

The Miltary traditionally did not have Daycare on bases or any other family services such as child education or counseling.

Taking care of Military members families (or Veterans) is not high on "Establishment" Pentagon members' priority list.

These services are expensive and many Military families are essentially low income. Spouses work and can't afford DECENT Day Care.

And from what I have heard, Clark and his wife were actively involved in getting these things set up for Military families.

Thsi is one reason why I believe that Clark is NOT "Establishment" Pentagon... I sincerely believe he took care of the Military men and women as best he could and worked to improve their conditions.

I also think he sees the waste in the Pentagon and will work to change things.

General Clark said his domestic priorities would include health insurance and rolling back parts of Mr. Bush's
tax cuts. "I don't see why we can't have health insurance for every single American," he said.

Asked how he would pay for it, General Clark said he was open to some cuts in the budget he is more
familiar with — the Pentagon's. "The armed forces are a want machine," he said. "They are structured to
develop want."

[Bread and Circus]

91. This is a fine thread ...

and since some here were gracious enough to help
you. How about if you prove two things for us:

1.) Dean is really the real democrat from the "democratic wing of
the party" (which implies some of the others are phonies)

-- this is important because that is what he alleged/implied to
get where he is. Not only that, he lifted the phrase from
Paul Wellstone, and originally did not cite his source until
called to do so. I guess you can call this the "Gephardt
Challenge".

2.) Dean actually has a very good chance of beating Bush.

-- this is probably the most important because Dean can be as
angry as he wants, but unless he can beat Bush, he is not
going to help the party one iota. And if he loses, he will
do a helluva lot of damage to all of us. This is no game
and this country is not DU, a college campus or a small
state with very green mountains. This is a country distressed
in a time of war and feeling fairly confused about our
role in the world. This election is a referendum on
the path of the Democratic party I will grant. However,
it is a larger referendum on Bush's ruinous policies.
If Bush wins, that is a green light for more destruction.
Given that Dean seems to trail everyone of the major
candidates head to head vs Bush in most polls, the burden
of proof here is high. Go ahead.

And here's my bias, just so you all know -- I believe Clark
may not be the most certifiable, card-carrying Democrat in
the race, even he admits that.
However, he is the most certifiable, most credentialed
American in the race. And last time I checked, this is a race
for the Presidency of the United States, not the Presidency
of the Democratic Party. Clark has done the most for America
of any of these candidates, and that is how America will see
it come fall 2004.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

94. Start another thread please.

(I'll answer your questions anyway)

1. Can't
2. Can't

Both are speculation. Check his record if you think he's not a Democrat. Up to you.


However, he<Clark> is the most certifiable, most credentialed
American in the race.

Chew on that for a minute.


What are Clark's progressive accomplishments? Is it that hard? 100 posts of puffery.


ed- sp

[Bread and Circus]

97. Here's a little something for you to chew on....

Basically you are using the "Ghandi Standard"
to measure Clark. It's BS. Here's why:

1.) Kucinich, who may seemingly most resemble this
sort of standard is in last place -- so he and his ilk
are obviously not what we need to win the WH this time.
2.) Dean (whom the thread starter supports) is no
where near passing this standard, which Gephardt
and the gang keeps trying to remind us.

Bottom line: I think you and your ilk are trying every
trick in the book to keep folks from giving Clark a fair
hearing, because you know if they do, they might just realize
that he really is the best chance the Dems have at getting
back the white house. Don't take my word for it, just
check the last 3 or 4 major national polls. Everytime,
head to head vs Bush, Clark finishes near the top of the
major candidates and Dean finishes at or near the bottom.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

98. What is more fair than asking for his accomplishments?

Very simple. If he doesn't have any, why are you so supportive? If he does, list them. Simple.





On edit- If the Newsweek poll meant anything, Lieberman would have had it wrapped up two months ago. Read this and see if you find disagreement in the premise. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=391308

[Mairead]

155. You are very good at assertions and generalising from insufficient data

But not very good at persuading. The idea that Clark might not be the best Democrat is more or less the whole issue here. If a non-Democrat would do, there are plenty to choose from besides Clark. The point is: a non-Democrat won't do.

(And as for your airy dismissal of 'Kucinich and his ilk', I can only tell you that it's early days yet.)

[Cheswick2.0]

143. yeah nice try

Clark isn't anymore "American" than any other candidate just because he served in the military (forgetting that several other candidates did also). What was that statement all about?

At the moment Clark is running for the DEMOCRATIC PARTY nomination for president of the USA. So yes, he is running to represent the Democratic party. As Democrats we have a right to make sure he represents our concerns, not just swallow his candidacy whole because he decided to run as a democrat.

[JNelson6563]

145. Have to agree

Hear! Hear!! I mean c'mon! The most certifiable American??? Some candidates are more American than others????

Why that's almost Freeperesque...

Julie

[Bread and Circus]

147. Personally, I believe in the idea of a life of service then

representation in government. Not necessarily
military, but service of any stripe. I don't
like career politicians. That's just my belief.

I will concede to you that Clark is no
"more American" than any of the others. But that
is not the point.

The point is, Clark has demonstrated, through deed and
rhetoric, a call to the service of the Nation,
as opposed to "a party".

I like that and many others do as well.

[janekat]

96. Uh - Clark was in the Military NOT a politician. Whaddya expect? n/t

[noiretextatique]

99. he's certainly a politician NOW eom

[Julien Sorel]

100. For what, 13 days?

Lots of time to get accomplishments.

This whole thread was a setup; I'm surprised it took someone, janekat, this long to point it out.

No reasonable person expects Clark to have a record of liberal accomplishments, after having spent a lifetime in the military. Of course, he has no conservative accomplishments, either -- but that won't stop people from calling him a conservative. Really, this thread represents the worst of this message board -- the hypocrisy of the opening post, to the nasty, baiting tone of some of the replies. Fortunately, the voters are more reasonable in their expectations.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

101. Then upon what do we judge Mr. Clark?

Your gut feeling?

[Julien Sorel]

104. His words.

Your perception of his character. His record of honorable service, which indicates he would keep his word. The books he's written, the speeches he's made. There's enough evidence out there to make a judgment. If that's not good enough for you, vote for whoever, based on their 'record' of progressivism. With this bunch, good luck finding a true 'progressive.' Your support might bump Kucinich from 1% to 1.0000000000000000001%.

This thread, on the other hand, was a waste of bits and bytes.

[noiretextatique]

107. wow...you are taking this awfully personally

i think you'd be wise to grow a thicker skin...this is only the beginning.

[Julien Sorel]

117. I'm not taking it personally at all.

And I have no idea why you would think that. In fact, I'm at work catching up on some paperwork, posting here in between. Couldn't be more relaxed, in fact.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

111. I'm filthy rich.

Do you believe me? I have thousands of posts. No one has ever accused me of lying. Am I filthy rich?

Pardon me if I think that looking at a tableau of votes is more impressive than words. Believe it or not, I'm neutral on Clark. Why am I neutral? Nothing to judge him by other than his words. Bush said he was against nation building during the 2000 election. Should I believe him? Lacking an historical record I could have no idea. Now I know where he stands because of his actions. I'm better informed because of that fact.

[Julien Sorel]

121. Dean has said he is against the war.

Do you believe him?

[noiretextatique]

102. no accomplishments...

an honest answer...thanks. i agree 13 days experience is hardly sufficient time to assess anything...something clark supporters should keep in mind. btw, i agree this thread is absurd...kucinich and sharpton are the only progressives in this race.

[Julien Sorel]

105. No one assessed anything based on 13 days.

[noiretextatique]

109. i know...i don't know much about clark

but i am going to take a closer look.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

106. Why is it absurd?

I agree with Billy Bunter that you could also phrase the question "What are his conservative accomplishments." You'd get the same list. The point is that no one knows. How can you have a strong feeling about someone whom you know virtually nothing about. It confounds some of us. It's not flame. It's not absurd. Every other candidate besides Sharpton has a political history that you can make an informed decison upon. Is it really that absurd to ask for a history upon which to judge?

[noiretextatique]

108. actually, i don't expect him to have 'progressive' credentials

do you? do you REALLY? c'mon now...REALLY? :D perhaps i'll be pleasantly surprised, but i assume he is moderate/centrist. no...it is definitely NOT absurd to judge his history...i agree with you.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

112. List his centrist accomplishments then.

I'm not picky.

[noiretextatique]

114. sorry...i can't help you with that either

but...i'm sure our friend here will. i do know he is purported to be "honest" psst...and i am a millionaire too :7

[Julien Sorel]

115. If you want to state that he's dishonest, do so.

Then back it up with some evidence. :D

[noiretextatique]

118. i don't know if is honest or dishonest...you claimed he is honest

remember?

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

119. Great.

I could use a loan. This Bush economy has ruined me!


lol

[noiretextatique]

123. unfortunately...honesty, is this case, is not one of virtues

my finances are here :hurts: thanks to the uniter and company.
who, btw, posed as a centrist and promised to "restore honor and dignity to the white house." given our recent past, it's perfectly reasonable (and very logical) to take a close look at all the candidates. i'll give clark a closer look, but i am leaning towards dean...now.

[Julien Sorel]

113. When you know that history doesn't exist, it's strong evidence

of either stupidity or dishonesty, wouldn't you say? If you insist on a candidate with a record of progressivism, then why even bother looking at Clark? Or Sharpton, for that matter? Does AL get a free ride because he's black?

At any rate, as I said above, there's plenty of evidence about his attitudes. Read his book, for one. I've read more books like that than I can count, but his, despite being mediocre, painted a picture of a person I liked -- in spite of itself, because that wasn't its goal. It was written before he was looking to run for any office, too. His speeches, his work as a commentator, the fact that most retired generals (I've known a few personally) are Rockefeller Repubs -- socially liberal-to-moderate, fiscally conservative -- I 'feel' good about the guy, because I know a fair amount about him without having met him. Better than I do about Dean, whom I know isn't a progressive, better than I do about Kucinich, because he's too progressive.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

116. I'm not trying to convert you

to Dean. Trust me.


The point of this thread is why should "we" support someone we know virtually nothing about as compared to those that we know a shitload about. Pick and choose who you want to support, I don't care, but having a good idea of what they're going to do once in office seems to be a better idea than taking a flyer on somebody because you have a good "feeling" about them. That's where I'm coming from.

[Julien Sorel]

120. You are presuming I based my decision based on

'feeling.' I already explained what I based it on. There are also millions of Americans who are non-partisan, or only mildly partisan. Those folks would be attracted to a candidate with attitudes like their own -- and for me, having those people on my side is critical, because I want Bush gone, and we need those people.

Ultimately, by the way, what I have learned about Dean was enough so that I know that he is certainly not my candidate. Sometimes people reach a decision based on elimination. Dean's too conservative; Kerry has been too lackluster and is from a northeastern state. Of the electable candidates, that leaves Clark. At least, that's my feeling on the matter ;-)

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

122. Go with your feeling.

More power to you. Different standards achieve different results. I was just curious about the "phenomenon." I think I understand now.

[phegger]

124. I'm curious...

People have listed some things here; I assume you've read them. Do these count as "accomplishments" to you? Not a flame, just asking.

Obviously the guy hasn't been a politician, so he doesn't have a conventional political track record.


-ph :smoke:

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

157. Yes.

They help put some meat on the bone.(And I believe that was the honest intent of this thread. Not a "flame" but an "explain" thread.)

This is where I'm coming from. I'm Clark neutral. I'm Sharpton neutral, too. The other 8 candidates have a history of holding various offices as Democrats. Agree or disagree with what they did while in office, there is a ledger of record that I can refer to when I form my opinions. Sharpton and Clark do not have that point of reference. It doesn't mean that neither of them would make a fine President. It just means that voting for them would be based more upon "faith" than reason. Why select an unknown when there are 5-7 solid knowns also running? That having been said, I remain open to any new input.

-RiF :smoke:

[Julien Sorel]

160. You went from stating that 'you think you understand the

phenomenon,' or something like that, to making a post that clearly demonstrates you do not.

It doesn't mean that neither of them would make a fine President. It just means that voting for them would be based more upon "faith" than reason. Why select an unknown when there are 5-7 solid knowns also running? That having been said, I remain open to any new input.

I let the last comment about 'feelings' go, but this one about 'faith' is simply absurd. Clark has a record. It isn't a record of votes, but it is a record of literature and speeches (which exposed him to some risk and which he didn't have to make), that define his philosophy perfectly well. I asked you a question above, about Dean's opposition to the war, which is still unanswered. Dean has no record on foreign policy, and his record as governor of Vermont is actually conservative, once you take away showpieces like civil unions (which he didn't even champion himself). What do we really know about Dean's foreign policy? We know what he's said. Just as we do with Clark. People who support Clark are acting with no more faith than people who support Dean do -- they are simply using different sets of data to make their assessments.

I thought this was laid out perfectly well in my previous posts, but I hope it's clearer this time.

[Mairead]

156. Sharpton has a political history as well

As far as I'm aware, he's been consistently on the side of the people.

[FubarFly]

128. This thread is not a setup.

There is no other shoe to drop.

I asked a question and got a lot of very good answers. I now know a lot more about Clark then I would have otherwise. My momentary Clark freakout has subsided. It is very telling that you would find a thread asking for positives about your candidate as the "worst of this message board". I would think the distinction would go to one of the hundreds of irrational Clark bashing threads, in which incidentally I often defend Clark. Or do you enjoy those?

[Julien Sorel]

133. The shoe dropped throughout the thread,

which was predictable from the start. If I misjudged your intent, you have my apologies; however the thread has already been linked to by the bashers to 'prove' Clark is not a progressive.

[FubarFly]

135. That wasn't my intent, although I was aware it might happen.

I was also aware that if enough good info was gathered, this thread could be used to defend Clark.

If Clark supporters are now actively looking for Clark's accomplishments, or closely scrutinizing his record, then I view that as a good thing.
Clark will be stronger because of it.

Bashers are going to be bashers regardless. If it wasn't this thread it would be something else. I don't like it either.

[moondust]

125. What were YOUR progressive accomplishments

before you reached the time/age when you began to be politically aware and active? Same as Clark's, I presume.

[FubarFly]

130. If I was running for President I would be sure to tell you.

And I would be glad that you are concerned enough to ask.

[noiretextatique]

132. i don't think the poster is running for president

and surely, you aren't saying clark was not poltically aware or poltically active until recently...are you?

[moondust]

134. Aware yes, active no.

Though maybe not fully aware assuming that one does not become fully aware until one starts to become actively engaged and is forced to make those decisions. As pointed out above and in many other threads, he was in the military for most all of his adult life. That's as apolitical/nonpartisan as it gets.

The poster's progressive accomplishments, as everyone else's, before becoming "politically engaged" are likely to be equal to his fascist accomplishments--nothing on record.

[FubarFly]

136. For the purpose of this thread, progressive is a loose term.

I view the definition through the context of his military career.

[noiretextatique]

137. he was the NATO Supreme Allied Commander Europe, unlike the poster

who is not running for president. i have a real hard time believing he wasn't "fully aware" long before now, regardless of his occupation. and if that is true: he certainly has no business running for president...which does require one to be actively enganged. granted, he doesn't have much actual political experience, and that's not very reassuring either.

[moondust]

139. I don't have such a hard time.

The military does not require, ask, or expect people to define themselves politically. It is far more important to be able to work with lots and lots of different kinds of people to accomplish objectives, something Clark was quite capable of as NATO commander. (No doubt it helped to speak several languages.)

[Cheswick2.0]

144. Great, that makes him very qualified to be a General

what makes him qualified to be President or represent my party in the national election? He was registered to vote, he apparently had no problem voting as a republican. He apparently had no problem raising money as a republican. He apparently had no problem praising republicans in public. The only problem I see is his inability, yet, to prove he will make a good Democrat.

[moondust]

146. At this point...

what you see is what you get. I doubt that he would try faking it. I don't read too much into his handful of indiscretions committed before he knew who he was and where he fit in politically.

From his questionable speech in May 2001: "Look, in politics they told me--I don't know anything about politics now, I want to make that clear. But they told me--I read, do my reading in Time magazine and so forth..."

Kerry is right of course that it does mean something to be a lifelong Democrat who has fought for progressive causes for years.

:shrug:

[Toucano]

126. For your consideration

I realize these aren't all solid "accomplishments" and some are only character traits, but those that are not may serve as windows into the progressive spirit and mind. We have to bear in mind that the culture of his primary employer doesn’t afford much opportunity to sings ones own praises. Their online records also don't extend very far back. Thank you. I think I know Clark a lot better now.

1. Questioned Authority
“Finally, General Wesley K. Clark, Supreme Allied Commander Europe, reportedly stunned a recent session of the Senate Armed Services Committee when he called for a complete rethink of Western strategy and questioned the need for the aerial assault on Serbia. General Clark noted that NATO could have used legal means to block the Danube and the Adriatic ports, and could have used "methods to isolate Milosevic and his political parties electronically."<4> If implemented and augmented with other measures, Clark added, the military instrument might have never been used.”
http://carlisle-www.army.mil/usawc/Parameters/00spring/thomas.htm

2. Supported Education
“General Clark talked about the schools. Even with all of the pressures he faced in Europe, changes that can only be described as revolutionary, he and Mrs. Clark really engaged in the schools. Our schools were the subject of a dinner in Rome with the Secretary , and Mrs. Cohen, who then came back to talk to me about education issues that needed to be addressed.”
http://www.dod.mil/speeches/2000/s20001117-depsecdef2.html

3. Didn’t Conform to the Status Quo OR Stayed True to Himself :)
This is actually from a book review of his book, but I don’t have access to the book at the moment.

“Though Clark discounts any patronage from his previous Arkansas connections with former President Bill Clinton, he makes it quite clear that he was seldom the Army’s favorite because of the many key positions he had held that helped position him for his selection to SACEUR. This section helps the reader to understand a bit about Clark’s leadership style and attention to detail (less charitable people would label him a micromanager) and his view that the rest of the Army perceived him as an intellectual and not from the war-fighter mold. This is a key insight of a soldier never fully accepted by his own, and it establishes a thread woven through the remainder of the book.”
http://www.nwc.navy.mil/press/Review/2001/Autumn/br1-au1.htm

4. Orchestrated Improved Pay and Tax Benefits for Workers (Soldiers)
“The second set of decisions occurred May 31. Then, Frank Rush, acting assistant secretary of defense for force management policy, extended imminent danger pay to service members at certain locations in Italy, Greece and Hungary, as requested by Army Gen. Wesley Clark, head of U.S. European Command. Clark then extended combat zone tax benefits to these service members by immediately declaring they directly supported combat zone operations.”
http://www.dod.mil/news/Jul1999/n07091999_5idp.html

5. Supported Women’s Leadership Development
"CHIEMSEE, Germany -- Residents of military communities throughout Germany and Europe will "connect" with one another when American Women's Activities, Germany (AWAG) holds its annual Spring Conference, May 17-21 at the Armed Forces Recreation Center here. The theme this year is "AWAG--Connecting Communities," and conference planners intend for the event live up to its theme.
AWAG is a nonprofit organization whose purpose is to encourage participation in volunteer clubs and community organizations and to help train effective leaders and members of these groups. AWAG provides guidance in programs and projects to spouses' clubs, family support groups, and German-American or international clubs."
http://www.hqusareur.army.mil/htmlinks/Press_Releases/9x/98/March/980320-1.htm

6. Consensus Building
“One of the great strengths that was in fact disclosed and revealed is that of the genius, the competence and the professionalism of General Wesley Clark. I don’t know of anyone who had a greater challenge than to hold nineteen democracies together while conducting some 34,000 sorties and holding and managing all of that together during a very stressful time.”
http://www.pentagon.mil/speeches/1999/s19991201-secdef2.html

7. Key negotiator of the Dayton Peace Accord
"Clark's citation hailed the retired general as a soldier, scholar and statesman, respected for his military expertise, keen intellect and diplomatic skill. It specifically cited his roles as a key negotiator of the Dayton Peace Accords and as head of U.S. European Command."
http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Aug2000/n08102000_20008102.html

8. Does Not Drive an SUV
According to NH Town Meeting, September 25, 2003

[sandnsea]

127. I'm going to repost

Pull it out and make a thread of it. Thanks.

[noiretextatique]

138. did you read these first?

just wondering, because i did. most of the articles are either thin on info, or not exactly...um what's the word...supportive of clark, or the claims made about him.

[Toucano]

159. Of course

Hence, my caveat at the beginning.

I realize these aren't all solid "accomplishments", but those that are not may serve as windows into the progressive spirit and mind. We have to bear in mind that the culture of his primary employer doesn’t afford much opportunity to sings ones own praises. Thank you.

I am not Rove. It is not my responsibility to spin information to deceive anyone.

There isn't a lot of readily information available, so I do think this helps people know Clark better.

[FubarFly]

131. This is beautiful. My enormous thanks.

I can now construct a profile of Clark which can reconcile his past with his present. This was exactly what I was looking for. Believe it or not, we are both on the same side. If Clark wins the nomination I will right there beside you fighting for him. I hope you feel the same about Dean.

:-)

[JohnOneillsMemory]

154. "hold nineteen democracies together while conducting 34,000 sorties"???

SORTIES = BOMBING WHICH KILLED MANY CIVILIANS.
THIS IS A PROGRESSIVE FEAT?!?!?!
How can anyone believe this is an admirable thing? I just don't get it.

[Toucano]

158. Clark is not for pacifists

If you are a pacifist, you won't like any military accomplishment.

I respect that.

But when the DAYTON PEACE ACCORD was violated and people were being slaughtered with deliberation, Clark's use of force was not unilateral.

The cooperation is progressive. Playing nice with others is the opposite of a bully.