Looks like it is time to get vocal about choice.

[davsand]

I hate the fact that I'm at a point where I feel fear that a woman's right to choose is endangered. I did my time as a clinic escort, I carried my share of picket signs and did my share of shifts in abortion rights information booths. Maybe I got lazy, maybe I just got tired, or maybe I just got busy with other things--I dunno why, but I backed off a bit.

Looks like I need to drag my tired butt back out on the picket lines and back to the front lines because I can't and won't stand by while women's reproductive freedom comes under open attack with little support.

Yep, I'm driven by the issue. I don't give crap what anybody says, I am not able to abandon women and girls to a future of forced pregnancies. I refuse to quietly sit and watch my daughter and all the other daughters suffer at the hands of back alley abortionists and parasitic animals who thrive in times of illegal abortion.

Simply put: Women DIE when abortion is illegal.

I've been horrified at some of the statements I've seen on here lately that urge we abandon the issue of abortion. I find those no less horrific than statements that urge a return to slavery and removing women's vote.

I am carrying a new sig banner now. If it horrifies a few folks then so be it--I guess I've probably done that more than once on this board anyhow. If it provokes discussion then it will have done a part of the job.

I'm standing up again. I do this for my daughter and all the other daughters. I also do it it memory of all the women that bled and died when abortion was illegal.

Let's kick some ass for the little girls.



Laura

[DanCa]

1. you take the left i got em on the right

Where in this together. These people cant differenitiate a stem cell from a blastocyst to photeus to a fetus to a baby. You know you and I are made up of carbon atoms can these nuts use coal and barbecue or would that be murder?
By the way I am a stem cell lobbyist so I am well aware of how rough the other side plays. I have been called everthing from a toddler killer to an embryo farmer all because I want a cure from my parkinsons. Keep fighting laura I got your back.

[lynettebro440]

2. Me To Laura

I have said for the last 25 years if anyone screws with abortion rights, I will be in the picket line. I got your back Laura, we can not let them overturn this decision that women in my age group worked so hard to obtain.

[DanCa]

3. Welcome to DU lynettebro440 (nt)

[PATRICK]

4. Damned if you do and damned

otherwise. I notice a similar unheroic posture regarding this as to when blacks were cheerily disenfranchised during past elections causing the downfall of the very people too timid to raise the issue.

Bigger concerns. Red flags are GOP red meat. True, but the past response of quieting the uproar over the obvious casualty-to-be is not only ineffective but shameful. It also emboldens the RW to go farther once the majority of people just shut up about defending basic civil rights. Much further and the "wise" strategy simply does not work. Quite the contrary.

So the question is not if but how- and to who so that the tricky issues of internecine damage and public clouds of controversy don't bury the issue in emotions leaving the gleeful masters of destiny rubbing their hands over the chaos.

Extreme pressure should be put on the stoically inert plans of national leaders to come up with clear smart ways to tackle the issue sooner than later. When we had some legislative power they had one excuse. Now that they have very little they have more excuses. When will they be free to be as brave and forthright as their best constituents, on permanent retirement in the Bahamas?

[davidthegnome]

5. Hmm...

I absolutely agree that it should remain legal... yet, the absurd abortion rate in this Country truly worries me. Perhaps I've been listening to EWTN too much, still... I'm very concerned. The sex ed programs we have in this Country are a joke - what we need to do is focus much more on the priority of teaching the young some responsibility. Sex sells like crazy in America... and these poor young girls have no idea what they are getting themselves into. If they do get abortions, it is something they will have to live with their entire lives. I can only shudder when I imagine how awful it must make one feel.

Pro-life, pro-choice, nothing but political BS, what we should be, is pro-responsibility. We need more advocation of safe sex, and better sex ed programs, not to mention a healthy dose of reality. Many Nations hate us for abortion - they would hate us less, I think, if we stopped pretending to give a shit, and did something about it. It doesn't matter if you're right or left, abortion is not a good thing, though it may be necessary. We could save many lives by improving the knowledge, responsibility, and financial resources of others. I'm thinking perhaps a massive publically funded effort to get people together to discuss the issue, and do what we can to help. If one person (myself, for example) were to begin this effort, using their own resources, the right wouldn't be able to complain about the use of government funding.

Roe VS Wade will not be overturned, the people simply wouldn't stand for it. Yet, as abortion will remain legal.. I think we on the left should do something to make it less of an enormous issue in this Nation. The "Pro-lifers" on the right get a lot of support BECAUSE of their stance on this issue. I think what dems need to do... is to somehow prove that we really care.

[davsand]

6. EVERY pregnancy a wanted one should be your reference point.

Women do not "CHOOSE" to get pregnant and get an abortion, usually. it isn't like you wake up some morning and think, "Yeah, I'm gonna get my jollies by having my cervix dilated and the contents sucked out." Trust me, it isn't like a trip to the spa, and women do not happily make that choice.

I will agree with you that there is a horrible lack of legitimate sex ed in this country. I'll also agree with you that women as a WHOLE need more education about how our bodies work.

I'll also take you one step further and suggest that MAYBE instead of spending a lot of time getting all pissed off about what personal medical decisions women make, our society would be much better off if we focused on finding better contraceptive technology.

It'd be lot easier on everyone if they'd focus on maybe finding a contraceptive technology that didn't raise cancer rates and blood pressures. It would also be a whole lot better if we had ANY contraceptive that did a better job than 98% effectiveness rate in actual use. (For the math challenged that means that TWO women out of every 100 who use the pill EXACTLY as directed will still get pregnant.)

I'd also think it was a real plus to maybe educate people that the pill doesn't work if you have stomach issues that speed your digestive process. Stomach flu, diarrhea, and vomiting are a real threat to your contraceptive effectiveness. Did I remember to mention that certain common antibiotics ALSO make your pill not work as well? That comes into play in this all too...

I'm not EVEN gonna get started on stuff like IUDs and some of the other stuff out there that passes for "family planning." I suppose it would be fair, however, to mention that many women do not even have ACCESS to medical care to get the IUDs, pills and shots that are so very bad for our health.

I do think it'd be a great thing to educate women on natural family planning beyond "just say no" but to be honest with you, the same people who want to dictate the occupancy rate of my uterus also feel compelled to dictate what birth control options are available.

We can do better than this. We sure as hell have GOT to do better if we want to ever see a day when every pregnancy is a chosen one.

You on board for THAT, davidthegnome?


Laura

[davidthegnome]

7. Well

<<Women do not "CHOOSE" to get pregnant and get an abortion>>

First of all, I'd say that's absolute nonsense. If you choose to have sex, you choose to face the consequences, period.

<<I'll also take you one step further and suggest that MAYBE instead of spending a lot of time getting all pissed off about what personal medical decisions women make, our society would be much better off if we focused on finding better contraceptive technology. >>

The technology we have now is not great, but I'm not sure how much I like the idea of giving Americans yet another excuse to be sex crazed.

<<It'd be lot easier on everyone if they'd focus on maybe finding a contraceptive technology that didn't raise cancer rates and blood pressures. It would also be a whole lot better if we had ANY contraceptive that did a better job than 98% effectiveness rate in actual use. (For the math challenged that means that TWO women out of every 100 who use the pill EXACTLY as directed will still get pregnant.) >>

I think there is a limit to how much we can alter what is natural. Yet, despite my misgivings, I would be in full support of a safer contraceptive - provided that an amount of responsibility go with it. An age limit, perhaps.

<<I'd also think it was a real plus to maybe educate people that the pill doesn't work if you have stomach issues that speed your digestive process. Stomach flu, diarrhea, and vomiting are a real threat to your contraceptive effectiveness. Did I remember to mention that certain common antibiotics ALSO make your pill not work as well? That comes into play in this all too...>>

I'm aware of this, and as such, must point out that ignorance is not an excuse to be reckless.

<<I'm not EVEN gonna get started on stuff like IUDs and some of the other stuff out there that passes for "family planning." I suppose it would be fair, however, to mention that many women do not even have ACCESS to medical care to get the IUDs, pills and shots that are so very bad for our health.>>

Well now, that's a damn big can of worms. What we really need in this case (which is likely making some government officials shit their pants) is a universal healthcare system. If the government won't fund it... again, perhaps something organized by the general public.

<<I do think it'd be a great thing to educate women on natural family planning beyond "just say no" but to be honest with you, the same people who want to dictate the occupancy rate of my uterus also feel compelled to dictate what birth control options are available.>>

They have only as much power over you as you allow. If you are not sexually responsible, you dig your own grave to lie in. Improved natural family planning is not only a good idea, but absolutely necessary for any meaningful success.

<<We can do better than this. We sure as hell have GOT to do better if we want to ever see a day when every pregnancy is a chosen one.

You on board for THAT, davidthegnome?>>

For better contraceptives? Absolutely. But, responsibility must come first. If this is to be done, there must be a method of making sure it is carefully monitored and controlled. Otherwise we wouldn't be making much headway.

Good post.

[Hello_Kitty]

11. So much of the tone of your post bothered me

I'm not even going to get into it. I'll just address 2 comments.

I think there is a limit to how much we can alter what is natural. Yet, despite my misgivings, I would be in full support of a safer contraceptive - provided that an amount of responsibility go with it. An age limit, perhaps.

What would the age limit be? 16? 18? 25? If you're younger than that, you can piss off. David, maybe you don't realize this, but young girls are the most vulnerable to pressure for sex from boys their own age and exploitation by older men. And adolescents in general are contending with raging hormones and sexual curiosity even in the best of circumstances. Expecting them to "just say no" while denying them contraception is absurd.

The technology we have now is not great, but I'm not sure how much I like the idea of giving Americans yet another excuse to be sex crazed.

What proof do you have that availability of birth control leads to people becoming "sex crazed"? I'd really like to see some research on that. Links please.

[davsand]

12. Who is qualified to "monitor and control?"

WHO, exactly, get to rule over women's access to effective contraceptives? Who gets to decide that? Is it a problem if you are 14 and you WANT birth control? How about if you are 40 and your husband doesn't WANT you to have it but you want it anyway? Who gets to decide then?

I'll agree that there are times when people (both men and women) throw caution to the winds and have unprotected sex. It is a lack of self control, and it is not anything to romanticize, but exactly when and how do any of us earn the right to decide when anyone else is not acting responsibly?

Is a failure of your birth control method acceptable in terms of responsibility? If the condom breaks or the pill fails or if your diaphragm slides is THAT failure of responsibility or just tragic?

I understand you are frustrated by our societal attitudes, but I'd like to better understand just how it is possible to enforce or even judge responsibility?


Laura

[Warren DeMontague]

15. So, it's really not so much about abortion, is it?

As it is about CONTROL.

Stopping other people from being "sex crazed". Not giving them "excuses" to fornicate in ways which you personally don't like.

So--- why the fuck is anyone's sex life-- besides YOUR OWN, I mean-- your business, pal?

[Mandate My Ass]

34. I have nothing to add. You summed it up perfectly

Women's sexuality is very threatening to some people. You have to wonder why....:eyes:

[Kathy in Cambridge]

16. Condoms break. Birth control fails. A woman's choice is none of your

business. Period.

[catzies]

8. Then let's work together to make it obsolete, not ILLEGAL

"We could save many lives by improving the knowledge, responsibility, and financial resources of others."

YES!

Do you know why it's "an enormous issue in this Nation," as you said? Because it keeps us occupied with the fight, which we can't abandon. But keeping this in the "cultural debate" means we are distracted from other more important fights when we go over and over and over and over and over this one.

I want Roe v Wade legal and left alone. Let's work on the REAL problems facing this country.

Welcome to DU.

[kevsand]

9. Several points.

1) I could be wrong about this, but I thought I saw somewhere that the abortion rate (like the crime rate) had been going down under Clinton, but began rising again under Bush. Even at that, we do not have what you refer to as "absurd" abortion rates in this country. Far from it. Still, count me among those who would like to see abortion become unnecessary. "Safe, legal, and rare" as Clinton used to say.

2) "Many Nations hate us for abortion" Huh? That's a new one on me. Most nations hate us for imperialism, murder, and theft. I suppose it's possible that theocracies might add abortion to the list. How many theocracies are there, exactly? Not many.

3) "Roe VS Wade will not be overturned, the people simply wouldn't stand for it." While the people might not stand for it, they don't have the final say. The Supreme Court does, and if the votes are there, Roe is history. The people can't do squat after the fact. We have to defend Roe in advance, in order to prevent the votes from ever adding up on the court.

[davidthegnome]

10. Interesting

<<1) I could be wrong about this, but I thought I saw somewhere that the abortion rate (like the crime rate) had been going down under Clinton, but began rising again under Bush. Even at that, we do not have what you refer to as "absurd" abortion rates in this country. Far from it. Still, count me among those who would like to see abortion become unnecessary. "Safe, legal, and rare" as Clinton used to say.>>

I suppose that would depend on one's definition of "absurd". Personally, I prefer the one in the dictionary.

<<2) "Many Nations hate us for abortion" Huh? That's a new one on me. Most nations hate us for imperialism, murder, and theft. I suppose it's possible that theocracies might add abortion to the list. How many theocracies are there, exactly? Not many.>>

Now that's laughable. It is common knowledge that one of the reasons we are hated is because of our stance on abortion. Not many theocracies? There are THOUSANDS - I know this, for I have personally dealt with some of them... let me just say they are unpleasant to deal with.

<<3) "Roe VS Wade will not be overturned, the people simply wouldn't stand for it." While the people might not stand for it, they don't have the final say. The Supreme Court does, and if the votes are there, Roe is history. The people can't do squat after the fact. We have to defend Roe in advance, in order to prevent the votes from ever adding up on the court.>>

Aside from my sincere belief that the dems would close down Washington if such a thing were truly attempted - it may cause a violent revolution - battle in the streets. The right wing is aware of this, and they are not as stupid as we like to think. There will be some sabre rattling, but that's to be expected. They have to keep up appearances, after all.

[kevsand]

17. I had hoped that we could keep this discussion grounded in reality,

but you seem determined not to.

1) "I suppose that would depend on one's definition of "absurd". Personally, I prefer the one in the dictionary." Inasmuch as that is a complete and total non-answer, I'll consider the point moot for now.

2) "Not many theocracies? There are THOUSANDS - I know this" No, you don't, for the simple reason that there are not even thousands of nations on the planet. Try hundreds. And the percentage that are theocracies? Pretty small.

3) "if such a thing were truly attempted - it may cause a violent revolution - battle in the streets. The right wing is aware of this, and they are not as stupid as we like to think." Actually, they are far dumber than anyone realizes. What you forget is that the right wing doesn't fully control this. There are any number of fundies who are sincere about their missions from God to end abortion, and they will push the issue regardless of what Rove or the other strategists want. There will be test cases. And the Supreme Court answers to no one, not Rove, not Bush, not the RNC, not anyone. That's why they're the Supreme Court. As to whether it will cause a violent revolution, why don't we agree on the desire not to actually test that theory. Let's head 'em off at the pass, so to speak, and prevent the need for it, okay?

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[davsand]

23. No woman should ever die like this.

That photo haunts me. When I think it just isn't worth it to keep fighting I contemplate the idea of my daughter ending up like this.

I contemplate the idea of ANY woman ending up like this and I get ANGRY as hell. It makes me determined that we will NEVER go back to this.

THIS is what we fight to prevent.

When abortion is made illegal women DIE.



Laura

[Warren DeMontague]

25. While Rape is certainly one of many reasons to keep choice legal

I resent the implication made by the previous poster, that women who have sex "ought to know better" or "ought to keep their legs crossed" or "ought to be more responsible".

What a flying crock of shit. No woman should have to offer reasons to justify why she wants to keep control of her own body. Period.

I always wonder about the guys who post this stuff... and why they seem to harbor such resentment towards sexually active women (and men)

[Warren DeMontague]

13. So why do most major "pro-life" organizations oppose legal birth control?

Why are they working overtime to support pharmacists who lecture women and hold their prescriptions hostage?

You say put the "priority on teaching responsibility".. The way to do that isn't to feed kids some "abstinence only" twaddle that tells them they should wait until they're married (even if they don't get married until, say, 30?) and doesn't teach anything about contraception. The way to cut down on teen pregnancy and teach responsibility is to understand that, yes, some teens will have sex as teens have done since the beginning of time.. so they should not only know about contraception but have it easily available.

As far as "many nations hate us for abortion"... Is that the same as, or different from, "they hate us for our freedom"? Are you referring to nations that produce terrorists? How come it's not legitimate to question why they hate us under any other circumstances- like, by talking about the history of intervention in the middle east dating back to the Eisenhower era and prior.. but it's okay to bloviate about how we're needlessly incensing them by permitting porn, reproductive choice, and (limited) rights for gays and lesbians?

And again, if the right was really interested in preventing abortions, they wouldn't simultaneously be waging a war on birth control. News Flash: They Are.

[noiretextatique]

14. proving you care about women

is leaving this healhcare decision to the women involved, because it is no one else's business. that's exactly what people who care about women should be saying, on the left and right...actually, that is what's happening NOW.
democrats need to stop being seduced by rw hysteria on this issue, as well as others. your use of the word "absurd" is an example of that hysteria, btw.

[davidthegnome]

19. In other words

One's gender makes one's opinion obsolete? I don't think so. This is not an issue that involves only women due to the fact that every child has a father. My use of the word absurd was totally appropriate. I have done my research, yes, "absurd" is absolutely a proper word to use. Have you been to abortion clinics? I have. Have you spoken with the doctors who perform them? I have. I have heard the screams, and seen the tears. I have watched a dear friend kill himself when his fiance had an abortion without even consulting him. And don't even get me started with the numbers.

Now, as for the final decision belonging to the woman, I agree. However, to deny one's right to an opinion due to sexist prejudice is counter-productive, and certainly not democratic. No, unfortunately, we men don't have much (any) control over whether a child (even if we are the fathers) will be born. Of course, anyone who has taken womens studies will inform you that men are clearly the inferior gender anyway. :) sarcasm/off

I say again, Roe VS Wade will not be overturned, let us worry about it if and when it is actually attempted, though I doubt it will be. In the meantime... why not make a stand for more responsibility, improved education, and greater financial resources for these young women? And, since I have spoken of it, for the young men as well (which seem to be, for the most part, ignored). How about it? Who's on board?

If the government won't fund it... then damn, why don't we take matters into our own hands?

[noiretextatique]

21. "Now, as for the final decision belonging to the woman, I agree..."

the rest is :hurts: and if you want to put your money where your mouth is...why not just do it? it's not exactly a novel idea...perhaps you can volunteer for planned parenthood. and yes, i know more about abortion than you ever could.

[Hello_Kitty]

28. If that really happened

I mean, your friend killing himself because his fiancee had an abortion without telling him, then he probably had some serious emotional problems to begin with. Not to mention major control issues.

I'm also having a harder and harder time believing you are actually prochoice, given your dubious accounts of supposed conversations with abortion doctors and of the "screams and tears" you supposedly witnessed. And finally, your little jab at women's studies reveals your own misogyny pretty clearly, in addition to revealing how highly unlikely it is that you have ever taken such a course.

I'm starting to want to ask you what it's like in the back of the van with all the other Operation Rescue people....That's all I'm sayin' :shrug:

[davidthegnome]

33. No longer amusing

First of all, I never said I was either pro choice, or pro life, because I'm neither. I am pro responsibility. As for women's studies, my old mentor studied, and took these courses for years. Believe it or not, she became a staunch republican. Misogyny? Perhaps, if you consider someone who believes in true equality between the genders to be a "misogynist". No, I have no love for feminism, and I won't claim otherwise. I have however, been an ardent supporter of women's rights for years.

I have marched, I have argued with government officials for hours. Yet... I am beginning to belive my efforts sincerely wasted. For the people I have fought for have no appreciation or sense of gratitude for my efforts. I am a conservative democrat, and, no I can't stand Lieberman either.

It seems that anyone who voices an unpopular opinion on this forum is insulted and degraded. I think it has become much like the free republic, where members enjoy tearing each other apart. As much as I respect Skinner for his efforts for good causes, I must say I am quite fed up with this website. As there appears to be no room for dissent, for questioning or arguement.

So, I will retain my dignity and select another forum to lend my support to, perhaps something more independant. The "enlightened left" here, appears to be no more than a fringe group.

Good luck Skinner, you're going to need it. I withdraw my support. I will, within the day, cancel my account with DU.

[Hello_Kitty]

35. Buh bye

Let's see, no mention of the alleged suicide and his "mentor" took women's studies for many years and then became a staunch Republican. He hates feminism, but supports women's rights.

But I do believe he has marched and argued with government officials. Just not for our side. At least he tombstoned himself.

[davidthegnome]

36. Yes yes

I need not defend myself to fringe idiots and children. Farewell.

[Swamp Rat]

20. Welcome to DU!

Good luck! :hi:

[noiretextatique]

22. roberts' nomination is sure

bringing 'em out of the woodwork :rofl:

[Hello_Kitty]

29. No shit!

And how frigging gullible do they think we are?

[noiretextatique]

30. stupid is as stupid does

:popcorn: i wish they'd bring out their big guns...these small fries are just a snack.

[davsand]

31. Lots of good progressives standing up here.

Makes it easier to see this kind of thing when there are so many good folks standing up calling out bullshit.

I'm glad not to be alone.



Laura

[The Traveler]

24. Drive on, babe

Get mad. Get vocal. Shake the walls. If it takes a million of us in the streets to get the job done, let four million of us take the walk together. No compromises here. No surrender.

[Lindsay]

26. Laura, I'm right here with you.

We worked so hard to make abortion legal and safe. And I'm not willing to go back.

I was chilled, when doing some research into family history, to find out that an ancestor had died from an illegal abortion in the 1890's. It was right there on the death certificate.

I don't want that happening to any woman ever again. Every woman ought to be able to make informed decisions on her own health care, and her own best interests. And every child should be wanted and loved.

[DanCa]

27. welcome to du lindsay (nt)

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

32. Time to get VERY LOUD about choice to the politicians.

Especially to the allegedly "pro-choice" senators who are talking about giving Roberts a pass.