Just How Much "Not Blaming The Troops" Is TOO MUCH Not Blaming Them?

[DistressedAmerican]

I fully believe that our troops are in a terrible situation. I also believe that many get immoral orders from their commanders.

But, I am really starting to wonder what the hell is up with troops themselves. Why are they so regularly killing innocents. Why do they not refuse immoral and illegal orders?

I know after Vietnam everyone is leary of blaming the troops. But, lets face it folks. Someone is pulling the damn trigger. Someone is torturing our detainees.

Does anyone know (besides the Abu Ghraib 8) what individuals have been held accountable for illegal actions in this war?

I am beginning to think that we may be cutting some of these folks TOO MUCH SLACK.

Do not get me wrong, I do not advocate spitting on returning troops and calling them baby killers in the absence of info on each soldier's actions.

But, who among us can sit here knowing about the torture of detainees and widespread death and destruction that has befallen many innocent Iraqis and not want to see some court martials and jail time for those that are out of line?

OK Flame Away...

[unhappycamper]

1. The basic problem is a lack of discipline.

Training and leadership = discipline. Factor in the 'insurgency,' and you've just time warped me back to Cu Chi, circa 1970. I was wearing this in 1970:

[DistressedAmerican]

2. Would You Have Supported Disciplinary Action Against Those Committing

atrocities back then?

I would have. I still do.

[unhappycamper]

6. Yes. Torture is torture - it is wrong. Period. No qualifications.

It has been wrong since it was invented, and torture is still wrong. Prior to bu$hCo, the US did not officially condone nor sponsor torture.

All individuals responsible should be tried for crimes against humanity. Those who did it as well as those who permitted or encouraged it.

[DistressedAmerican]

8. Knowing You, I Assumed That Is What You Were Saying. Just Checking.

:toast:

[unhappycamper]

10. Check no more.

You can catch me sober; you can catch me shitfaced; you can catch me tired; you can catch me wired, but the answer will never change:

TORTURE IS WRONG. NOT IN MY NAME!

[DanCa]

30. I agree were supposed to be the good guys.

That is supposed to seperate the good guys from the bad guys. I can't believe anyone could codone torture. What is this world coming too?
Good Post unhappy Camper I agree with you one hundred percent.
(On a side note says a prayer for our men and women to come home asap )

[Monkie]

3. is it not simple?the law on illegal and immoral orders are clear?

not knowing the law is not an excuse?isnt that what we are constantly told.
Everyone knows what basic moral laws are.
Nobody forced them to rape Iraqi children.
They chose to rape children is what society would say if it was someone caught in America
They made a choice to act.
What is really going to happen if someone disobeys a illegal or immoral order,compared to say the rape of a child.

[evolved Anarchopunk]

4. short 'n sweet, and you know what your main detractors will say

already.. i like that. Many times in my day i can imagine exactly what a half-wit (that's half of one wit exactly) Freep would respond to something i wrote making it laughable and digestible to his minions- like a momma bird prechewing food.

We could get into the poor, broke, white country-ass bigot stereotype of today's MODERN recruits, but that would discount the fact that the majority of our military is comprised of our pop. minorities. Then we could get into the economic squeeze that pushes good men into bad situations, but joining any branch of the military is supposed to be a step up, a positive learning experience.

I need to cut away from that thought process before i get to involved with it, but i decided not to delete it. The point is i am with you Distressed, spinnin spinnin spinnin' i just dont know anymore. my father was and is a great man, and a veteran of over 30 years of service. everything about those years taught me what unique challenges and opportunities that puts on a family. But since then i've written essays stating what is becoming an accepted theory on standing armies: simply how the complexity of war today necessitates costly professionals and constant readiness. No minute men, no spontaneous human interaction and a unifying cause. No, only money, only men. And this causes, i repeat this causes, does not prevent war. just look at the last century. The time span for these events is insanely short, even if you can successfully draw a comparison between a modern war and the carnage of, say, the crusades SO WHAT, these horrific World Wars are taking place over the course of a couple lifetimes. And i think that word is most important: lifetimes. It is as if someone wants to use the power (mistakenly) vested in them to accomplish an end in their lifetime. Bush, his bosses, and Iraq all PERFECT examples of ALL of this.

Can we fault soldiers for taking the money and lapping up the patriotism? Nope, not in todays economy. But find me the soldier (and it wouldn't be hard) who participates in this war for his belief that killing 100,000 iraqi civilians makes the world a better place, and ill show you a man who should be in a padded room

[geek tragedy]

5. Judge each individual by his or her own actions. We don't hold

members of racial or religious groups accountable for actions committed by individual, and we shouldn't try blaming all troops for the crimes of some.

[DistressedAmerican]

7. I Believe That Is What I Was Saying. Just Right Now They Are ALL Getting

a pass because we do not want to blame "Our Troops". That should not be the norm as is currently is.

[geek tragedy]

22. Troops who are criminals should never get a free pass. People who have

served in the Armed Forces will be the first ones to tell you that.

[Karenina]

12. Doch, doch!!!

Sorry GT, but what you write your post is unadulterated HORSESHIT. Muslims are called upon to repudiate the actions of a few. No less a "luminary" as Bill Cosby calls upon everyone within his microphone's reach to repudiate some of the most downtrodden, unconscious and helpless among us.

The MIC is an authoritarian system. Even those who "know better" are often forced by the "culture" to participate. American troops are committing wholesale, grotesque atrocities in Iraq DAILY. I grieve for those conscious souls caught up in this clusterfuck. However, "just following orders" doesn't wash anymore. Units with "Club Gitmo" gear is also not very helpful, especially since those of us on this side of the pond know quite well what your troops are doing. Fuck your LM$M. Walk up the stairs of an apartment building and hear the wails of decent people whose families are affected...

[geek tragedy]

24. So, you think it's accetable to blame all Muslims for what Al Qaeda

does?

I sure don't. And I sure don't think it's fair to smear all US servicepeople as war criminals.

[Karenina]

28. Reading comprehension

is your friend. So is "nuance." :hug:

[geek tragedy]

29. You're the one who called the notion that servicepeople should

be judged by their individual actions as "horseshit."

Sorry, but if you want to demonize US servicepeople, I really don't see any nuance in that kind of broad-based smearing.

Nor do I see any point in engaging someone who makes such statements in a dialogue. Toodles.

[Karenina]

32. Once again, you miss the point.

I recall every time there was a school shooting, conversing with friends as we ALL held our breath while PRAYING that the shooter was not black.
Our worst fears were, fortunately, never realized, but we knew that OUR CHILDREN would be judged "collectively GUILTY" had they been. That is all.

My point is members of NON-WHITE racial or religious groups ARE HELD accountable for actions committed by individuals. THAT is a fact.

[DistressedAmerican]

34. Gotta Agree With You. It Is Not Right. But, It Is A Reality.

[Karenina]

42. WOO-HOO!!!

Lookee here what some of the "good ones" ;-) are doing!!!!

:woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=1652639&mesg_id=1652639

:woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo:

[noamnety]

9. The Broad Brush

Always, the broad brush is a problem.

The phrase "the troops" will always be problematic when you are looking to lay blame. Some of them are trying to do what's right, in an impossible circumstance. Some are just bonehead racists corrupt with their own power. You can't lump them together. I have a friend trying to get back in to serve, who is having problems reenlisting because he was too outspoken against what was happening when he was in Iraq before. He wants to go back to help try to prevent abuses. He is not the problem.

The problems:

1) A lack of clear guidance. There should be clear guidance issued, so the soldiers have clear guidance to follow. For example, when the first abuse was disclosed, there should have been a memo immediately from the top down outlining what is or isn't acceptable treatment of detainees. Instead we had ambiguous statements that they condemned it but wouldn't necessarily call it torture, and vagueness about who was or wasn't covered under the Geneva Convention. Don't ask, don't tell is not an acceptable policy for interrogation.

2) A lack of discipline (again, a leadership issue). Items which become public relations problems needed to be dealt with but weren't. That doesn't mean hide the evidence, it means address the behaviors. The day the photo of troops in the Rush Gitmo shirt came out, that unit should have been taken to task for endangering not only themselves, but other troops overseas as well.

3) A lack of vision/ability to see the big picture. When you see repeat incidents of soldiers luring children to them as they hand out toys or candy and the children getting blown up as a result of being around the soldiers, it's time to issue guidance telling the soldiers to STOP luring the kids to the tanks, stop tempting them into harm's way. It's a war crime to use children as human shields. And yet I still see websites (www.anysoldier.com for example) asking for toys to give to the children. That's not the fault of the soldier running the site, whose heart I'm sure is in the right place. It's the fault of the leadership for not sending a clear message that it's unacceptable behavior in a war zone because it's endangering children.

Yes, individual soldiers need to be held accountable for their actions, there's no doubt about that. If a commander issues guidance and the soldiers violate it, they're accountable. If the commander doesn't issue guidance and tells the soldiers to make it up as they go along, the commander should be held equally accountable for the decisions they make.

[Disturbed]

14. Most troops become hardened and encouraged

to despise the enemy. Problem in Iraq is how to tell who the enemy is. Commanders from Shrub on down have not actively discouraged abuse and torture. There is a real fine line between the two and neither should be done yet we know damn well this is not merely a matter of " a few bad apples". The abuse, sexual humiliation is taught and widespread. It is policy.

Amerika no longer follows the Geneva Conventions and violates The Constitution on a regular basis.


Rumsfailed Admitted to Violating Geneva Convention

Rumsfailed admitted in public on TV that when CIA Director Tenet requested that an Iraqi prisoner be sent to a secret Afghan/US Prison that Rumsfailed did so. After four months a DOD Attorney stated that this was an illegal act. Rumsfailed then ordered that this prisoner be sent back to Abu Graihib but the prisoner was purposefully not listed at that location, also an illegal act. Rumsfeld also admitted to signing orders for tougher interogation methods which violated the Geneva Conventions.

Rumfailed has commited at least three violations of the Geneva Convention thereby also violations of The Constitution of the USA. Recently it has been found out that even more detainees were "ghost detainees". The fact that Rumsfailed and Tenet have not been charged speaks volumes. If Congress wishes to garner any respect they should move forward with Rep. Rangle's Impeachment Declaration of Rumsfailed and also proscecute Ex. CIA Tenet.

[noamnety]

20. "most troops"

If you can't support that with evidence, please don't make that sort of quantitative statement.

Otherwise, I agree with you. It's more than a few bad apples; it's policy driven, it's a violation of the Geneva Convention.

[Deja Q]

11. All right. I'll give you a one way ticket to Baghdad...

Will you let anyone lop your head off or fill you full of lead?

I thought not.

Self preservation. Just another reason why war oughtn't be misused.

[DistressedAmerican]

17. Sorry But, Bullshit. Much Of What Is Going On Is Well Beyond Self

perservation. There is nothing about sodomizing children in a detention facility that has anything to do with self preservation.

These are crimes against humanity. Plain and simple.

The Geneva Conventions allow for self preservation. What is going on in many cases is not even close to that standard.

[IndyOp]

13. Troops in Iraq are acting the way they are because the

US military is training and commanding them in a way that violates basic human decency. I, too, am angry at troops who won't refuse immoral orders, and I can understand how very, very, very difficult it is for them to do so.

Why are they so regularly killing innocents?

Military studies after WWII and Vietnam indicated (to the brass) that troops too often hesistated to shoot when they had the enemy in sight. Current military theory says that wars are won when you inflict massive, massive casualties on the enemy and that troops must leave their 'respect for human life' at home. Troops are now trained to shoot to kill, kill, kill. For example - troops don't just receive target practice at human-shaped cardboard targets with a bulls eye on them - they practice on very real looking targets.

The military mantra to help troops cope with killing and committing torture is "What happens in Iraq, stays in Iraq" - meaning: Leave the morality you were raised with at home. This is war. Kill. Torture works: You scare the f* out of the population by torturing and releasing a few victims - the more innocent the better. Don't step out of line or this could happen to you, too.

Why do they not refuse immoral and illegal orders?

The power of the 'group' is phenomenal, phenomenal, phenomenal. Precious few human beings can resist acting with the rest of the group - especially under the sort of threat of danger/death that soldiers face. The Israeli Army teaches it's soldiers that they must refuse any orders issued under the "Black Flag" - orders antithetical to human rights. Still, individual soldiers act the way they are told to act, they do what those around them do. They shoot at little kids who are throwing rocks at their tanks.

You might take a look at the series of interviews by Jay Shaft at Scoop entitled "US Soldiers to America: Bring Us Home Now (Pt. 4)"
<http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0310/S00194.htm>. Statements from the GI being interviewed in Pt. 4:

"I swore a goddamn oath to never question orders from a superior and always do my duty no matter what I felt about it."

"I came in the Army when Reagan was the big chief and then after a couple years it was Big Bush. I had no real thoughts back then because I was young and proud to be a soldier. I was really into the whole shoot the fuck out of em and Kill! Kill! Kill! It was natural for me to want to be the best soldier I could be. That’s a real sick fucking joke, Be All That You Can Be, Shit that sounds so dumb. What be the best killing machine you be and wipe everybody out? Right now it’s an excuse to kill everyone that pisses us off."

"Man I done told you I can’t really have a debate like this with someone that is really aware and educated. You know all this shit about our leaders and we are fighting blind like a fuckin bunch of fucking stupid puppets. I just had it all wear me down to where I am at now, and I am confused as shit. I just wanted to serve my country and fu..ing keep it safe. I didn’t want to be in some shit like we got our dicks stuck in now. I will die for my country if they attack us, but I have seen the real life bloody deaths that just were really not necessary. I have seen the bodies of hundreds of dead Iraqis and a whole sh.t load were little kids. Man I got kids and it would kill me if someone dropped a bomb on them."

Shaft's article is from October, 2003 - it has to be worse now.

[w8liftinglady]

16. Something my son said once haunts me..

"don't worry,mom-we aim low with the kids"-They have no "REAL" enemy,only an enemy fabricated by the administration to justify the war.They know it.It is demoralizing.It will fuck with their heads for generations,like Nam fucked with our guys' heads.I am already seeing the "anti-troop" mentality beginning to form,just like Nam.However,unlike Nam-I will throw my body across my kid,and shield his ears so he doesn't hear-he didn't ask for this war,or to be deployed MULTIPLE times.Attack the Real war criminals-Bush and anyone else profiting off these kids' backs.

[BIG Sean]

19. Thank you for your son's service!

My nephew has just returned from Iraq as well. He served there for about a year and half. When he told me about some of what he has seen over there, I feel sorry for him. He is not a "tough guy"...he is not a "killer". He is a kid that was looking for something to do with his life. He had little options for work and he and a friend joined the army. They were both wounded over there and received purple hearts.

[w8liftinglady]

21. They aren't saints...

Just normal people,like everyone else.It's easy to be an armchair quarterback,when you've never been in that situation.What are their options while "In country"?Refuse an order and get locked in the brig in 120 degree weather?Have an article 15 on your record?...No-the only option is to "Aim Low",and pray they don't deploy you any more.

[oldcoot]

15. Civilians are not blameless

While I agree that individual troops should be held accountable for their actions, I also believe that civilians deserve some of the blame for these abuses.

Why? We knew about Abu Ghraib before the 2004 presidential election, yet many Americans still decided to vote for Bush and to support Republican candidates. By rewarding the Bush administration with a second term, the American voters sent a clear message to the world about how torture is not an important issue. Indeed, some even explained away human rights abuses by arguing that only a few "bad apples" were involved and that these actions were "frat pranks." Unless more American civilians reject such explanations and take action, we can expect to hear about more human rights abuses.

[w8liftinglady]

18. I hate the torture.

I especially hate what will come out about what we have done to children in these prisons.This is evil.

[mvd]

23. Remember that

most of the servicepeople aren't torturing. I wish there were more objectors, but I also know that the armed forces aren't there to obey some administratons and not others. I mostly blame the maladministration for putting them in Iraq, and also putting armor and food concerns on the back-burner.

[w8liftinglady]

25. I agree 100%

These kids are just now getting wind of all this-they do not allow them access to a lot of mainstream media(not that THAT's objective).It is very demoralizing.Imagine finding out your buddy was killed so we could build a few more feet of pipeline.

[DistressedAmerican]

36. You Know That I Am Well Sympathetic To That. We Have Chatted

many times about the troops and of all people, you know that my fundamental concerns are two, the troops on the ground and the Iraqi people that have been screwed just as bad under Bush as Saddam.

The situation is horrible. IMO, We should remove our troops immediately. They have been used illegally by the Bush administration, their oil company friends, and the goddammed neocons at every scale from the illegality of the entire invasion to the individual condoned crimes.

I am just saying that there have been many, many incidents over there in which our troops abused and or killed innocent people. Many of those (hopefully most) are accidents that result from war time conditions and heightened fear on everyone's part.

But, it seems very strange to me that more soldiers have not been brought up on charges (that we know of) for some of the more heinous acts.

Failure to discipline anyone leads to a complete breakdown of order and command. That as we all know gets people killed on both sides. Certainly more than the Abu Ghraib 8 are guilty of very real crimes in time of war.

Of course it goes without saying that the whole chain of command must also be held accountable first for sending them there in the first place and second for (in many cases) issuing illegal or immoral orders themselves.

As always, Thank you and your son.

You Know I Think About You.
DA

[w8liftinglady]

40. I agree with you.

And I think the torture is evil beyond belief.I can't condone the actions of these guys.Just know that my feelings are that we need to start at the top with the trials-just like the trials at Nuremberg.The sec of Defense,the Commander-in-chief-they are the evil ones here.

[Coexist]

26. this is an old post of mine on why troops will be blamed

for either this administration's failure to hold them to standards or their encouragement to forget the standards they were taught. It is in reference to the new AG photos, but can pretty much apply to random civlian violence too:

...Atrocities should never happen in the name of our country. We are better than that. We need to get back to where our government remembers that.

How can Rumsfeld, Cheney and Bush sleep at night.

I am involved in youth sports (football) and I can tell you, if the coaches and refs let's little "infractions" slide without reprimanding/penalizing and reminding the boys about the rules of playing fair - the cheap shots escalate quickly. Leadership is top down.

This is all at the feet of the unholy three. They didn't care, they wanted quick and dirty results, no matter what the human cost, and the attitude slid downhill.

With good leadership, this never would have happened, or needed to have happened. I feel intensely sorry for the soldiers who will take the fall for the filth at the top.

[Lannes]

27. I dont care what war we've fought and when

There have always been soldiers that have crossed the line.Its not a uniquely American problem.The real question is who put our soldiers "over there" in the first place?Soldiers who have broken the Geneva convention should be punished of course but its just as important if not more so to focus on who sent them there in the first place and why?

[Imagevision]

31. Sad when americans blame they're own troops for wrong-doing

They're living this war 24/7 while you sit on your ass and complain!

Bush-Rumsfeld-Cheney-wolfowitz set the pace for this insane war, torture could never have happened if it wasn't sanctioned by the brass - then dump the blame on the lightweights citing; "a few bad apples"?

Irak soldiers sodomized kids teenagers while the US. military looked on - so who exactly are the "bad apples"??

Bush refused to allow anymore photo's-video over the weekend, that says volumes to me. Blame not the soldier- blame those who started the fucking war!

[DistressedAmerican]

33. How About All Of Them. It Takes Two To Tango.

Why hold the ones actually cmmitting the acts responsible as well?

I firmly believe that the war was wrong and that the leadership must be held accountable. But, give me one reason we should not punish those taking the illegal orders.

And for the record, I am working very hard to end this war and bring these folks home. How dare you accuse me of just sitting on my ass complaining. You don't fucking know me. Where the hell do you get off? You don't know what the hell you are talking about.

Anyone that knows me knows that sitting on my ass complaining it not my style. I get active. How about you? What are you doing to make the world better?

[IndyOp]

35. I believe that it was a US soldier that sodomized the 15-year-old boy

-- based on the Sunday Herald article:

"It was early last October that Kasim Mehaddi Hilas says he witnessed the rape of a boy prisoner aged about 15 in the notorious Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq. “The kid was hurting very bad and they covered all the doors with sheets,” he said in a statement given to investigators probing prisoner abuse in Abu Ghraib. “Then, when I heard the screaming I climbed the door … and I saw who was wearing a military uniform.” Hilas, who was himself threatened with being sexually assaulted in Abu Graib, then describes in horrific detail how the soldier raped “the little kid”.

An Iraqi TV reporter Suhaib Badr-Addin al-Baz saw the Abu Ghraib children’s wing when he was arrested by Americans while making a documentary. He spent 74 days in Abu Ghraib.

“I saw a camp for children there,” he said. “Boys, under the age of puberty. There were certainly hundreds of children in this camp.” Al-Baz said he heard a 12-year-old girl crying. Her brother was also held in the jail. One night guards came into her cell. “She was beaten,” said al-Baz. “I heard her call out, ‘They have undressed me. They have poured water over me.’”

He says he heard her cries and whimpering daily – this, in turn, caused other prisoners to cry as they listened to her.

Although most of the children are held in US custody, the Sunday Herald has established that some are held by the British Army.

<http://www.sundayherald.com/print43796>

[Imagevision]

37. I read Iraqi soldiers did the sodomizing while US. troops looked on

[IndyOp]

41. I think it is possible that what you are saying is true -

that Iraqi soldiers have sodomized prisoners while US troops looked on.

The Sunday Herald article linked above seems to be about the behavior of US troops. Further, the person interviewed in the article says:

“Then, when I heard the screaming I climbed the door … and I saw who was wearing a military uniform.”

Also, it seems more likely to me that the soldier's name would be deleted if it were a US soldier, than if it were Iraqi.

[Lightning Bug]

38. Appropriate blame is always okay

My dad was activated for the first Iraq war, and he despises these Abu Ghraib jailers. He says he and his unit were all given little cards to carry with them at all times that detailed proper treatment of any prisoners who might surrender. Abuse would not have been tolerated. But then, my dad is a decent human being who really didn't need to be told what was right.

[raysr]

39. This is a volunteer

army, they're either there for the kick or the cash, fuck 'em.

[Moderator]

43. locking....

The is a broad brush attack against
our military. Don't attack the
majority for the acts of a few.


This is flamebait.


DU Moderator