Stop Beating Around The Damned Bush. Iraqi's Have A RIGHT To Defend

[matcom]

themselves and their country against a foreign invasion.

some of you crack me up. :eyes:

gee. The Soviets INVADED Afghanistan. You all supported the "insurgents" (so did our government)

gee. The Chinese are threatening to "invade" Taiwan. My GUESS is you would support the Taiwanese in their defense.

etc..etc..etc..

WHY?

because those wars would be/were/are ILLEGAL

I am a Vet. I have FRIENDS over there. I want them HOME. I ALSO see a RIGHT of EVERY Iraqi citizen to defend his country. I would do it if WE were invaded. so would YOU.

stop this shit with the hyperbole and "what ifs". its crap and you know it. "Insurgents" as you call them, would NOT exist without a willing populace. I might argue that the "insurgents" as YOUR government calls them are mostly IRAQI CITIZENS tired of foreign tanks rolling down their streets. Iraq had/has a HUGE educated populace. They aren't idiots. They aren't some prehistoric "tribe" with no feelings/pride/sense of history. Hell, MOST Iraqi's I dare say are MUCH more aware of world history than any given American.

cut the shit. it is beneath you. and it is sad.

[bryant69]

1. I wonder how many Iraqi civilians have been killed

by these insurgents?

Just out of curiousity.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[understandinglife]

6. Up to now, far fewer than the number of South Vietnamese killed by ...

... the insurgent Viet Cong (and their NVA allies).

But, if we don't get our butts out of their country - Iraq - that could change.

Illegal wars and illegal occupations have a way of turning everything to shit.

WATCH IT; SPREAD IT http://www.bushflash.com/right.html

Peace.

www.missionnotaccomplished.us - How ever long it takes, the day must come when tens of millions of caring individuals peacefully but persistently defy the dictator, deny the corporatists their cash flow, and halt the evil being done in Iraq and in all the other places the Bu$h neoconster regime is destroying civilization and the environment in the name of "America."

[bvar22]

18. Insurgents ARE civilians, so

:shrug:?

The Iraqi Army surrendered unconditionally at the gates of Baghdad.
Since then, the armed forces of the US have been misused to suppress the civilian population. There is NO OPPOSING ARMY in Iraq.

[bryant69]

26. OK.

So if one Iraqi kills another to further his political agenda - what do we call that?

[bvar22]

37. Murder.

Just like here.
The US Military ARE NOT the World's Policemen.
They are ill equiped and poorly trained for that job.

[wtmusic]

2. here here.

and even if they were a prehistoric tribe. Maybe more so.

[leftchick]

3. most americans believe the US Military BS that

the "insurgents" are composed of foreign terrorists coming to "fight us there so we won't fight them here!".


so sad

:eyes:

[laura888]

4. They ARE "tired of foreign tanks..."

"...rolling down their streets."

As if we could even imagine that. I ask you to PLEASE imagine that.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

15. This is what we do with "native" tanks that roll down our streets.....

Of course.... this guy was a wee bit out of control.... weaving all over the road and such.....
http://charleypatton.blogspot.com/2005/07/sundance-channelcul-de-sac-suburban.html



Sunday, July 03, 2005
Sundance Channel:
Cul de Sac: A Suburban War Story
In recent weeks, I've noticed I spend most of my TV time watching football matches and footy news on Fox Soccer Channel and Sky Sports News. The wife curses both stations. I used to be like like with BBC America but it got shit. I've been thinking about becoming a broadcaster for Fox Soccer Channel. Nothing is worse than hearing Max Bretos commentate.

[SlavesandBulldozers]

21. aaah Fox Soccer Channel

my oasis.

[The_Casual_Observer]

5. The bitch of it is that we really don't know what is going on in Iraq

whether or not the "insurgency" is a popular movement or not. The press and the government sure as hell don't seem to be the ones to trust to lay out the facts. Who can you trust?
The reporters seem to be afraid to leave the "green zone", so how the hell would they know what is going on.

[NorCalDem]

7. You're correct

I'm sure there are foreign fighters crossing borders to come attack US forces, just as there are Iraqi citizens picking up arms or IEDS and heading out to attack US forces.

Either way, we should not be at war in that country, it was not the right time for us to be there. Had the Iraqi people been crying out for someone to come depose Saddam and set up a democracy, then Bush's claims would be valid. As it is, he just makes our country look like it's full of retards.

[Jacobin]

9. Actually, we do, but it requires digging.

I recommend billmon's site where he quotes a number of generals and experienced government officials who are on the ground there and are quite frank about what is happening....not reported, but it can be found.
'
HERE:

http://billmon.org/

[HysteryDiagnosis]

30. What's your take on Riverbend..... I could read this, and I probably

will for hours.....


http://riverbendblog.blogspot.com/
Bush said:
“The troops here and across the world are fighting a global war on terror. The war reached our shores on September 11, 2001.”

Do people really still believe this? In spite of that fact that no WMD were found in Iraq, in spite of the fact that prior to the war, no American was ever killed in Iraq and now almost 2000 are dead on Iraqi soil? It’s difficult to comprehend that rational people, after all of this, still actually accept the claims of a link between 9/11 and Iraq. Or that they could actually believe Iraq is less of a threat today than it was in 2003.

We did not have Al-Qaeda in Iraq prior to the war. We didn’t know that sort of extremism. We didn’t have beheadings or the abduction of foreigners or religious intolerance. We actually pitied America and Americans when the Twin Towers went down and when news began leaking out about it being Muslim fundamentalists- possibly Arabs- we were outraged.

Now 9/11 is getting old. Now, 100,000+ Iraqi lives and 1700+ American lives later, it’s becoming difficult to summon up the same sort of sympathy as before. How does the death of 3,000 Americans and the fall of two towers somehow justify the horrors in Iraq when not one of the people involved with the attack was Iraqi?

Bush said:
“Iraq is the latest battlefield in this war. … The commander in charge of coalition operations in Iraq, who is also senior commander at this base, General John Vines, put it well the other day. He said, "We either deal with terrorism and this extremism abroad, or we deal with it when it comes to us."

He speaks of ‘abroad’ as if it is a vague desert-land filled with heavily-bearded men and possibly camels. ‘Abroad’ in his speech seems to indicate a land of inferior people- less deserving of peace, prosperity and even life.

Don’t Americans know that this vast wasteland of terror and terrorists otherwise known as ‘Abroad’ was home to the first civilizations and is home now to some of the most sophisticated, educated people in the region?

Don’t Americans realize that ‘abroad’ is a country full of people- men, women and children who are dying hourly? ‘Abroad’ is home for millions of us. It’s the place we were raised and the place we hope to raise our children- your field of war and terror.

The war was brought to us here, and now we have to watch the country disintegrate before our very eyes. We watch as towns are bombed and gunned down and evacuated of their people. We watch as friends and loved ones are detained, or killed or pressured out of the country with fear and intimidation.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

23. Link that may help you out...... but you probably already have

it... their "stories" seem to be pretty "authentic".

www.veteransforcommonsense.org

[LibertyorDeath]

33. I think the embedded reporters most likely make Dahr Puke

There are good reporters out there still but you have to hunt for them

http://newstandardnews.net/content/?action=show_contributor_bio&contributorID=74

http://dahrjamailiraq.com/weblog/



Dahr Jamail is a Core Contributor to The NewStandard. He is presently on his third trip to Iraq. He is no longer corresponding exclusively for The NewStandard, but is again operating as an independent journalist. He lives in Anchorage, Alaska.

Dahr has a new website where all of his writings and photographs are archived, and where you can learn how to directly support his important work.

[Jacobin]

8. Its the perfect conundrum created by the neo-cons

Who you gonna love? Your brothers and sisters and aunts and uncles and sons and daughters off fighting for your country? ...Or them crazy, rag headed 'terraists'(tm)?

I'm sure the Germans had a hard time not supporting their troops in the early 1940's and the ones who DID are still living down the shame of it.

I welcome Jane Fonda and every other American who wants to end this illegal invasion and occupation and btw, where's Tom Hayden, we need a Pentagon Papers leaker...we need them ALL to stop this nonsense.

[Stirk]

10. "Insurgents would NOT exist without a willing populace"

That reminds me of a report I saw on CNN yesterday. You know- one of those happy, "look at the progress we're making" reports from Iraq. They were talking about Fallujah specifically, and saying it represented the pivot of the Iraq War... 'as goes Fallujah, so goes the occupation', so to speak.

Anyway, they showed this large wall the Army's engineers have put up around Fallujah. It's not so much a "wall", really- more of an 8-foot tall berm of soft dirt that encircles the city.

An engineer explained the idea behind this berm; that livestock, farmers, and other pedestrians can cross it easily, bit vehicles can not. So, anyone attempting to bring in shipments of weapons would be forced to go through the roadside checkpoints, where they would be found out.

The reporter closed with a cheery note about how this berm is keeping the insurgents out of Fallujah, and I sat there with my jaw hanging open.

Just moments before, she'd stated that the "wall" is not an impediment to human traffic- only vehicles. So it's not keeping the *insurgents* out of Fallujah, but keeping the angry citizens of Fallujah unarmed.

[Cocoa]

11. the problem is they're killing Iraqis

very likely most Iraqis desperately want the U.S. troops out, both becuase of the death and destruction the troops cause directly, and because they see them as causing the insurgency.

But I seriously doubt they love the insurgents, in fact most of them probably hate them.

[stellanoir]

12. I heard at one point that there were

more PHD's per capita in Iraq than there are in the US. Nevermind that the women there (according to riverbend) prior to our invasion had a better pay ratio to men than we do here.

Oh and they happen to be live in the so called cradle of civilization. They came up with Hammarabi's Code and we allowed it to be looted while we were fastidiously guarding the Ministry of Oil only.

Aaaand we've brutalized them with torture, humiliation, rape, unemployment, disenfranchisement, and starvation, contaminated their soil for god knows how long with depleted uranium, and guaranteed them with a government that endorses draconian Sharia Law.

Yup "those rag heads hate us for our freedoms." As if there are really any oppression loving people on the planet.

Arggghhhhhhh.

[robertpaulsen]

13. Word, matcom. Hyperbole is bullshit.

The only "what if" question I'm willing to ask is: What if America could be a democracy again?

But at this point in our history, even that's a bit much to ask.

[WhollyHeretic]

14. This is because we keep letting the repugs set the argument

This has been going on for a while now. We let them set the argument with erroneous facts and then argue from there. The WMDs is a prime example of this, leading up to the war even people who argued against the war conceded that Iraq had WMDs. They didn't challenge the false facts of the repugs, they just started at the republican position and argued from there instead of saying their whole position was bullshit.

If republicans came out tomorrow and said there are zombies in Connecticut and we need to nuke the whole state then Democrats would come out and say we need to quarantine the state instead of saying "he f**kwads there is no such things as zombies." I know it's a ridiculous analogy but the way we let them set the argument with their insane version of reality is already absurd.

[Disturbed]

17. The Bush Fascist Regime. has been successful regarding...

the frame that the Insurgency are against Democracy and are evildoes, killers, terrorists etc. The Corp. Media has been complicit with the ilegal Invasion and the Occupation. No longer do most Amerikans think of the Insurgency as anti-U.S. Occupation. I read that 82% of Iraqis want the Ocuupation to cease and all foreigners out of their country. Who cares what the Iraqis want?

[Zorbuddha]

16. I often wonder how Americans would look at if we were invaded

under false pretenses, and suffered the same indignities and hardships.

[Redstone]

19. Funny how so many RWers have an orgasm when they see

the movie "Red Dawn."

But ask them the question you just posted, and relate it to Iraq, and....(sound of crickets chirping).

Or they'll just say it's Clinton's fault.

Redstone

[SlavesandBulldozers]

24. yes, and the irony of Red Dawn doesn't stop there

remember they called the mission to get Saddam "Red Dawn" and our troops were split into "Wolverine" teams.

obviously the irony is lost on them.

[gulfcoastliberal]

20. Fallujah Uprising vs Warsaw Uprising

The Nazis invaded Poland illegally. The US invaded Iraq illegally. The Nazis considered the Polish insurgents to be terrorists. The US military considers Iraqi insurgents to be terrorists. The Nazis destroyed most strutures in Warsaw after an insurgent uprising. The US military reportedly destroyed over 30,000 structures in Fallujah after an insurgent uprising. Yet it is wrong to compare this fascist, pro-corporate administration to the fascist, pro-corporate administration that was the Nazi party. Things that make you go hmmm...

[Disturbed]

25. Falluja was a War Crime but...

most Amerikans have been fed that the destruction of this city was a great Amerikan success and the troops that destroyed this city are heros.
Until Amerika has a Media that reports truth this Nation will live under grand delusions.

[gulfcoastliberal]

28. Nice picture - sums up the reason for the occupation. And our media would

make Goebbels jealous.

[Bucky]

52. On the Fallujah-Warsaw analogy... Did those insurgents target civilians?

I thought they shot at the Nazis, not at each other. I could be wrong. Please elaborate on this analogy. How many children did the fighters in the Warsaw ghetto slaughter? How many churches or synagogues did they blow up? How many German construction workers did they behead?

[driver8]

22. Amen, matcom...Amen.

I am a veteran, also and I agree with you 100%. I am a member of an ex-military discussion forum and I am one of two liberals out of about 40 people. There is a lot of "fight 'em over there so we don't have to fight 'em over here" bullshit and a lot of blind loyalty to Herr Bush.

I have asked these people a couple of times what they would do if a country just decided to invade the United States. I asked, "Would you just sit on your ass and take it? Or would you fight back to protect your family and your country?"

The responses I get are "We are fighting terrorists...it's different." or, "These people helped Al Queda and need to be stopped" or "Why do you hate America" (I shit you not.) I even had one fucking idiot tell me that "by voicing your opinion against the government, you are responsible for the deaths of American troops."

How do people get so ignorant, so stupid, and just so dead regarding the lives of other humans?

These are sad, sad, fucking times we are living in...and getting worse every day.

[Zorbuddha]

27. I wonder if our soldiers would rather live over here than die over there

FOR NOTHING.

Ask them that.

[driver8]

32. That is a great question!! I will definitely use it.

I can hear the answers now, though...

"The soldiers are dying for their country..."

"They are preserving our freedoms"

"They are fighting to bring freedom and democracy to Iraq"

It is tough arguing with these close minded m-fers...

[Zorbuddha]

38. Those are stock responses. Maybe they will think about it.

All those bumper-sticker philosophies cut little real mustard.

[Kraklen]

29. Yeah, it's the 800 lb. gorilla.

[leftofthedial]

31. more of a duty than a right.

freedom fighters

being killed daily by an occupying force

[LibertyorDeath]

34. Thanks for saying that so well.

:toast:

Recommend

[demgurl]

35. I totally agree with you but.....

I have been fighting these freepers who respond in my local paper and they are so irritating. What is worse if I think they believe everything they write. One of them was just arguing with me saying such insane gibberish as the terrorists we are fighting,in Iraq, are ones we drove out of Afghanistan - they had to go somewhere right?
And they all, every single one of them, went to Iraq according to their thinking!

They also claim that the insurgents are the terrorists and do I actually believe that they were all florists before we invaded? I said according to a couple of studies done that they could have been florists, teachers, etc....and then they asked for 'creditable' sources for the study.

I think it is only common sense that when we come in and start killing their friends and family that they would take up arms in the fight but these folks can not be reasoned with. I finally just decided they were not worth my energy because they will never be convinced. These are people who declare George Bush never said Iraq was connected with 9/11 and you can not come up with one quote. Well big shot, then what are we doing there?

*Sigh* These people are just not worth it.

[fujiyama]

36. Some are fighting the illegal occuptaion...

Some really aren't. Some are just killing innocent civilians.

The problem is when you invade a country like Iraq, which is divided betwen several groups is that it turns to shit. There really is no way to manage it. Right now they have many pissed off Sunnis setting off bombs near Shiite mosques and others are just bombing anyone looking to find a job, or even children accepting candy. Many of these people are terrorists - but it's important to note that they are there only AFTER the fall of Saddam.

This all should have been expected and should have been yet another reason why invading it would have been a bad idea (that and the fact that Iraq really posed no real threat to the US making it completely unjistified).

The "insurgents" (I have no idea who they are either and we've been fed a lot of bullshit by the media) are not to be idealized in any way. They aren't a true guerilla force. Many are just murderers and others are just wishing to turn the country into a theocracy.

And as for Afghanistan, supporting the Mujahadeen was one of the worst mistakes ever made. By arming them we ended up creating what became the Taliban and Al Quaeda. We also ended up funneling lots of arms to Pakistan, the country that actually created the two.

Ultimately, leaving is the best solution we have - well atleast setting a timetable of leaving within the next year. It's obvious that us staying there isn't helping in any way. The US has proven incompetant in bringing the Iraqi people security in any way. We have destroyed their infrastructure.

[TankLV]

39. Can't think of any single thing to disagree with you on.

As ususal, to the point.

Good work.

[Robbins]

40. Thank You

I am so glad a vet understands my thinking on Iraq. We Invaded,and our occupying Iraq. Many of the so called Insurgents consider themselves freedom fighters. We would be doing the same here If we
were Invaded and occupied. I want no more Americans over there. I want them to come home,and let Iraqis handle their own problems.

[Kalish]

41. SURE...that's why they wantonly kill

their fellow Iraqis, because they want 'freedom'. That's why they blow up fellow Iraqis in cold blood - men, women, and children. That's why they blow up gas tankers in public markets. Sure, whatever dude.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

45. They wantonly kill because they have nothing to lose

They wantonly kill because their country is being occupied by a foreign power.

Welcome to DU.

[Sparkly]

46. Kalish has a point.

It's still the fault of BushCo's invasion, but it's what happens when you invade a country of opposing sects and topple the government with no structure beneath it to rise up and take its place. They are fighting the US, yes, but they are also fighting each other (and yes, deliberately killing Iraq civilians).

[WilliamPitt]

42. I can't fucking believe how wrong you are

The term is "Insurgent terorists," you jackass.

;)

Language is power, and 'insurgent' is a good shortcut to thinking.

[Sparkly]

47. What's wrong with "insurgent?"

Etymology: Latin insurgent-, insurgens, present participle of insurgere to rise up, from in- + surgere to rise -- more at SURGE
1 : a person who revolts against civil authority or an established government; especially : a rebel not recognized as a belligerent
2 : one who acts contrary to the policies and decisions of one's own political party

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=insurgent&x=0&y=0

Some are from outside of Iraq, so technically I guess they aren't insurgents since it's not their country. And the government isn't fully functioning yet, so mayber there's no "established" authority in the technical sense. But much of the violence is from people who do not accept the new government, feeling it won't give them the representation they want. They are rebelling against that authority, so if there's any authority at all, they're insurgents, seems to me. I don't know why it's a bad word.

(And yes, some do use terrorist tactics, although I think the term "terrorist" is used way too freely now.)

[Bucky]

48. If they were shooting only at US troops, you'd have a point.

The insurgents are targeting civilians. Last week a suicide car bomber drove into a humvee that was surrounded by Iraqi children, killing 17 of them while they gathered around the humvee. The Pentagon has flipflopped on whether the troops were passing out candy at the time--which means they were probably doing so.

That sure as hell doesn't sound like defending their country. "Insurgent terorists" (sic) are Ba'athists trying to destablize their country. The
Shi'ites running the government seem to have a game plan to get the US troops out of their country, and it's the best game plan going and one that Democrats ought to support. Bush's plan and the Ba'athists' plan will keep our troops in there fighting for a much longer time. The Shi'ites' plan to stablize their country and get chummy with Iran and say adios to our troops will get them out sooner.

Siding with the Ba'athists who deliberately slaughter civilians to terrorize the country into further bloody chaos is, to employ a comfortable phrase, cuckoo bananas.

[blue agave]

43. kick !!!

[Rex]

44. We were insurgents at one time, slaughtered insurgents.

Some people just see in black & white.

[Booster]

49. Thanks for saying the obvious, Matcom. I have always asked

people if France invaded Louisiana, would you go there and help them fight the invasion - must admit I shouldn't have picked Louisiana cause most people answer "No". ha But they get the point and usually agree with it. By the way, I love Louisiana.

[faithnotgreed]

50. completely agree~ everyone fighting the illegal invasion and destruction

of your people is named an "insurgent"

such propaganda

[Media_Lies_Daily]

51. Good post! Absolutely correct!