History repeats itself...but we never learn from it.

[driver8]

I was thinking, while reading about the US soldiers handling the dogs at Abu Ghraib, that these guys sound like people who would have been right at home as Nazis in the death camps. These idiots supposedly had contests to see who could get their dog make the prisoners piss themselves.

The more I thought about the Nazis, the more I started to compare the events of long ago to what is happening today. I know it is not politically correct to compare the Bush administration to the Nazis...but if it walks like a nazi, talks like a nazi and acts like a nazi...I'm going to call it a mother effin' nazi!! The United States is slowly becoming the nazis of the 21st century. We are invading countries for no reason, we are taking away people's rights in the name of freedom, our media is controlled, corporations now run the government...and most important, we have a "leader" that everyone is afraid to stand up to for fear of retribution.

This leads me to think, when will the rest of the world say "Enough"!! When will this administration go too far in the eyes of the world? How much death, destruction, stealing of resources, and mistreatment of others will the countries of the world allow to happen??

I have to tell you, I am scared to death about what is waiting for our country around the corner. Karma is a bitch and there is a lot of bad karma heading our way.

How in the hell did the people of the United States allow this to happen??

[AX10]

1. It also happens on the domestic front too.

People never learn. American citizens will "get it" next and then there will be no one to help them. Some are already "getting it"(abuse).

[Melodybe]

2. Society moves forward noon the less.

[damntexdem]

25. When society moves forward noon the less, ...

it tends to skip lunch.

[rkc3]

5. But there are lots of people, like my wife, who are content to say things

like:

"I've got bigger things to worry about than this."
"There's nothing I can do about it anyway."

My guess there were a bunch of people in Berlin who had the same feelings in 1937. It took them many years to get it and then it was too late.

[Beaver Tail]

9. This IS a big thing to worry about

It is THESE people who will tell the horror stories that flame hatered to the west.

[rkc3]

12. I agree 100%. It seems that as long as Survivor to the Newlyweds is on

and there's enough spare change to put a few bucks of gas in the SUV, people don't think to look outside their front door.

Our gov't and about 51,000,000 people in this country think all is rosy and dumbya walks on water. Until this strikes them personally, their eyes will remain closed and the repubs will continue down their merry path of destruction.

Unfortunately, in 10 years when we have the same standard of living as Bangladesh, people will want to know how it all happened.

[IrateCitizen]

3. Read Hannah Arendt's "Eichmann in Jerusalem"

We like to pretend that what the Nazis did was so completely inhuman on every level that it could never happen anywhere else -- especially here. We like to think of those who staffed the ranks of the Nazis as monsters.

Arendt showed us that those who staffed the Nazi ranks were so completely NORMAL -- particularly in the person of Eichmann.

The US soldiers who did these things show us that "we" are just as capable of barbarism as "they" are. It is as Gandhi once said -- "The true battle between good and evil takes place in men's hearts. That is where all future wars should be fought."

[driver8]

8. thank you -- that is the point I was trying to make. "The true battle

between good and evil takes place in men's hearts."

I just kept thinking, "What makes a person do these things? How does one look at a prisoner and not see a person, but a thing?"

What in a person's life allows them to commit the horrors that we have been reading about??

[Double T]

4. This sure is not the America any of us want to be a part of.......

we need to vote these psychopath corporate mentality guys like bush and cheney et al out of office and get this country on the road to recovery.

[Kagemusha]

6. You know, the Nazis treated Christian POW's pretty well as a rule.

There's a lot of.. I dunno.. some sort of weird transference thing going on here. Like not just the Nazis' sins but Brits, Americans, French, etc, could be treated well because all the bad treatment was being applied to the scape goat (which they must've found ironic since the whole concept is a Jewish one as far as Western civilization is concerned).

So these people who treat Muslims in Iraq like dirt, they'd probably treat most other people a hell of a lot better. Which in no way stops them from treating Muslims like dirt. Understand what I mean?

It's not simple black and white, and Nazis were people too, as were their victims, but ultimately well, it's all about not putting people in a position to commit these wrongs, which is something US civilian leadership has not cared about much.

[atreides1]

13. "...it's about not putting people in a position to commit these wrongs"

That's a bit of a cop out isn't it? Yes the civilian leadership put the military in this position, but the one to make the final decision
were those that were there.

They at one time in their lives were told the difference between right and wrong, they chose wrong, it was easier to go along with the crowd then to show true courage by speaking out against it.

The civilian leadership didn't give them instructions to torture, abuse, rape or in some cases murder detainees, they chose to do it
on their own so they could fit in.

Putting someone into a position to do anything does not make them do it, that comes from personal choice.

The war criminals at Abu Ghraib did what they did, because they thought they could get away with it, they failed to get orders in
writing, but I don't think they really cared, and now they're paying for it.

You can put people into a position, but what they do once they are there is a personal choice, and once they make that choice we can no longer put the blame on the civilian leadership.

Once a marine decides to kill a wounded unarmed man, thos ewho put him there are not at fault, he made the decision to pull that trigger. When the pilots of gunships fire on a party of people that they do not have positive ID on, it is they who have murdered the members of a wedding party, not Rumsfeld.

As a former soldier I am getting sick and tired of people here putting all of the blame on the civilian leadership of this country.
Don't get me wrong, if any of them were dying of thirst in the desert, I wouldn't piss in there mouths. But to allow the troops a free pass, shows that reality hasn't set in here either.

Accept the facts, the civilian leadership sent the troops in, but it's the troops pulling the triggers, firing artillery, dropping bombs, and torturing detainees, and those same troops have to be held accountable for their crimes as well. If we as a society fail to hold all participants in crimes responsible then we are no better
then the current administration.

[justinsb]

7. History repeats itself

but so far I can only assume that Americans like the song. Americans seem to learn less from history than others (and not just the GOP). It would probably help though if the schools improved and they learned history in the first place.

[driver8]

10. Exactly!! We do not learn! Look at Iraq -- it is becoming another

Vietnam. Vietnam was not that long ago, but we didn't learn a fucking thing from it. We are still sending innocent men and women to their deaths based on a lie.

The people of this country have very short memories.

[knowbody0]

14. another thing to figure into this,

is that history is recorded by the victors. im amazed at my children's school books, amazed and saddened. it is just more propoganda.

[justinsb]

19. I hope that you correct them

I always do, when the history books are wrong (or incomplete)

[knowbody0]

22. fear not!

my kids ruffle the feathers with their essays and reports. sometimes creating chaos in class. im so fuckin' proud of em

[justinsb]

26. Good for you!

Ruffling feathers in the public school system isn't hard. I was once sent to the principals office for trying to use negative numbers (in the 2nd grade).

[knowbody0]

27. well, you are a natural anarchist then

i love planting seeds of thought where ever i go, and now these kids challenge everything.

[justinsb]

28. Mine too...

They started in the public schools in the US and now go to public schools in Canada so they are definitely getting differing viewpoints on the same subjects even when I don't get involved (which I do frequently).

[rinsd]

11. Never learn? We're repeating the same crap from 30 years ago..

"The United States is slowly becoming the nazis of the 21st century. We are invading countries for no reason, we are taking away people's rights in the name of freedom, our media is controlled, corporations now run the government...and most important, we have a "leader" that everyone is afraid to stand up to for fear of retribution"

Hello Vietnam and Nixon!

Throw in Bull Connors with firehoses and dogs and you;'ve got the whole shebang.

[knowbody0]

15. we have become the evil emperor

[Karenina]

17. Slowly becoming???

TAG! You're IT!!! :rofl::rofl::rofl:

[driver8]

18. Right -- we never learn. The nazis and Vietnam are generally

considered to be "bad things" in terms of history. Yet here we come, making the same mistakes as those before us...we have not learned one thing from the past. We are repeating what we know will not work.

[leftofthedial]

16. they won't let us drag darkies behind our trucks at home no more

but Ay-rabs are fair game

:sarcasm: (for those of you too dim to get it without an icon)

what have we become?

[barb162]

20. You are making the mistake Dick Durbin made

A lot of very valid organizations got all over him because of it and then he ended up doing that really embarassing apology. Yes there are certain "naziish" things this country does. BUT, where are the ovens where 6 million died? Where are the yellow armbands? You are taking a few similarities... but don't overstate it. Bush is a true sick ass but he still doesn't take the cake from Hitler by about 20 million+ dead (WW2). He may be heading in that direction, but he is still nowhere close to Hitler

[yella_dawg]

21. You really want to see a case where history repeats itself...

Look up the story about when Britain attacked up the Tigris / Euphrates valley in the early 20th Century.

Opposition just melted, the Brits marched almost unopposed all the way to Baghdad, then insurgents cut the Brits to pieces after they "won". It was a disaster.

Who'd a ever expected such a quagmire in Iraq barely a century later?

[DinahMoeHum]

23. "We learn from history that we do not learn from history"

- don't know who said it, but it fits.


:shrug:

[damntexdem]

24. Of course history repeats itself. After what the Bushistas have done ...

to it, poor history is totally disoriented.

[barb162]

29. Good point about what the Bushies have done to history

But you know what? I see factual historical mistakes all over these boards too. What's worse, then people make wildly inaccurate deductions from the factual mistakes. It's happening on both the right and left

[Just Me]

30. Actually, history NEVER exactly duplicates itself.

Don't buy into that lie, please.

[barb162]

32. A+!

Do I ever agree with that

[Ariana Celeste]

31. Our society is too comfortable.

And until that comfort zone is threatened, many Americans won't care. Even then, there will be many who will stand in blind denial.

There was an article here posted recently that was of a soldier complaining that regular Americans are not being asked to sacrifice anything. He's absolutely right, and that is exactly why people are not pouring out in protest- it is not affecting their wallets, nor is it affecting their daily life. They are not being exposed to the truth, and with all the blind nationalism most of them could not fathom what is really going on.

The people of the United States are very comortable on their couches watching prime time television and driving their SUV's. That's why this is happening.