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I am going to try & read the Koran. Should I bother?

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maxsolomon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 03:55 PM
Original message
I am going to try & read the Koran. Should I bother?
I made it through the New Testament, although the ending was really tough sledding because i kept thinking "that is some F'd up BS" all through Revelation. And most of Paul. And a lot of the 4 gospels excepting the parts that Jefferson cut out for his Bible.

In my Therapy-Liberal quest to understand "why they hate us", I am going to give the Koran a go. Maybe I'll gain an understanding of why Islam is called a "religion of peace", despite recent evidence to the contrary. I don't think I'm in too much danger of pulling a "John Walker Lindh" & buying in.

2 questions:

1. Will it be worth it? Are there revelations to be found?

2. Does anyone have a clue as to what edition is easiest to read? I have no interest in a "King James" version, with flowery language i have to read 3 times to get. I want the "see dick run" version.
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jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 03:58 PM
Response to Original message
1. There's good stuff in there
But if you're looking for explanations as to human behavior, you'll rarely find them in the ideals people claim to uphold. After all, we've got a president who's Christian and hates poor people and peace. For good Muslim culture reading I would recommend Ibn Khaldun's Prologema to his Universal History. That's some good stuff.
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On the Road Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 04:01 PM
Response to Original message
2. I've Always Had Difficulty Reading the Koran
because the first part is so abstract, it puts me to sleep. I prefer the narratives of the Old and New Testaments.

Don't let that deter you, though. It's not that long, and not all of it is like that.
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Kalish Donating Member (402 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 04:02 PM
Response to Original message
3. there's no justification for suicide bombing in it
not that I'm aware of...

IOW - you might be surprised.
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Emendator Donating Member (243 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #3
31. You'll be surprised all right
With how often it condemns nonbelievers and threatens a person going to hell. Very, very often.
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Ravenseye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 04:03 PM
Response to Original message
4. Yes you should bother
Just keep in mind that it's not like the Bible. It's not a chronological story. It's poetry.

The Koran unlike the bible isn't grouped in a semi-chronological way, with a large majority intended to prove prophecy. It's actually grouped normally by the actual length of the book. Starting with the longest ones, ending with the shortest. While people read it directly through cover to cover, it's not necessarily intended to be read that way. Also often you'll get flowerly language because the Koran is poetry in arabic. All of it. So when people translate it into english they either try and make it flowery sounding or they literally translate it and it sounds funny. I wish I could tell you a good translation.

If you want to understand "why they hate us" though your'e not going to find it in the Koran.

I used to have some 'see dick run' versions which were intended for children, 10 big size books going through the whole thing, but alas I lent them to my cousin for his children. Since i'm raising my children as Scientific Humanists they aren't necessary.
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Nevernose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #4
15. There's a deep, revered tradition of poetry in Bedouin culture
I read a book about women in Bedouin culture when I was in college (wish I could remember the name of it, as it was excellent), and one of the things that most impressed me was the importance of poetry in the Bedouin's daily use of language.

Thanks for that bit about the Koran -- it helps illuminate a culture most people would rather see kept in the dark.
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RobertSeattle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 04:03 PM
Response to Original message
5. I always thought a really good religon
...would have a "scripture" that is a page long. Nothing more.

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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 04:04 PM
Response to Original message
6. Go ahead and give it a whirl. You might also check out
the liberal Islam network and see if they can recommend the dick and jane translation. :)

http://islamlib.com/en/aboutus.php
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tocqueville Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 04:04 PM
Response to Original message
7. "why they hate us" answer isn't in the Koran
try to understand 50 years of US policies in the Middle-East instead

the neutralisation of Mossadeq in Iran and the unconditional support to Israel are good examples...

And if you thought that Bin Laden has declared the holy war for religious beliefs, you are wrong too. It's for the oil, "stupid"...
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skids Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 04:05 PM
Response to Original message
8. Yes, it'll be worth it.

...haven't read it myself, but the ability to honestly say "I've read the Koran" will be worth it.

More people should read religious texts of different religions than the beliefs they hold (or not.) It builds bridges. So kudos to you.


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Zorbuddha Donating Member (822 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. You said it better than I was a bout to. And remember
Edited on Tue Jul-26-05 04:12 PM by Zorbuddha
they don't hate us, they hate infidels. That sort of leaves us a choice. It's up to us. Physician heal thyself...sort of.

We need to find a way to live in peace. Spreading the meme that 'we just need to kill all the bad guys' is not the way.
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Beaver Tail Donating Member (903 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 04:08 PM
Response to Original message
9. Revelation F**ked up?
Remember Revelation 10:10?

And I took the little book out of the angel's hand, and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and when I had eaten it, my belly was made bitter

Sounds like the author took drugs. That may explain it.
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Ariana Celeste Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 04:11 PM
Response to Original message
10. It's always worth it to try
and learn & understand other ideologies, religions, and cultures.

"Why they hate us" has nothing to do with their religion. We've been fucking with the ME for decades. But you may be surprised at what you learn if you give it a try. There are also a lot of websites on Islam that can describe a lot of aspects of their faith.

Good luck, and I hope you find what you want! :hi:
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The Flaming Red Head Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 04:14 PM
Response to Original message
12. There's a book called The Houses of Islam
Edited on Tue Jul-26-05 04:19 PM by The Flaming Red Head
that an Arab friend gave me. I'm sorry I don't remember who wrote it and I no longer have a copy, but it was a fascinating historical account of the Koran and the prophet. Many people at the time the Koran was written believed that some of it was stolen or plagiarized from the street poets of the day who would walk about the city singing/shouting their latest works. Islam was a unifying force for the Arab culture and more of a political tool and recognized as such. Spoken in its original arabic tongue the words of the Koran are said to be melodic and pleasing to the ear. I read most of the English version years ago and I didn't find it very appealing.
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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. "The" English version?
There are many translations out there & some are reportedly dire.

Let's hope an expert can give us some advice.
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The Flaming Red Head Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #14
18. All I wanted to do was make friends on this web site
Edited on Tue Jul-26-05 04:41 PM by The Flaming Red Head
it's very lonely here in Arkansas all by myself.

My friend was a Saudi with a PHD in education. Does that make him an expert? I don't know but it was a good book.

I wish people weren't so mean here on this web site. Everyone I love (except my kid) is dead. I just lost my best friend last month (HIV and HepC). I hate life and I'm just staying alive for my son.

I thought I could make some friend's here, dumb me, dumb me, dumb me.
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pop goes the weasel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #18
23. this is a pretty rough forum, sometimes
If it's any consolation, I intend to look for Houses of Islam, based on your recommendation. It sound very interesting.

I am so sorry for your losses, and for your loneliness. I hope that you will meet wonderful people near you soon--people you can touch and hear and hold. In the meantime, keep holding on, trusting that the morning will come to end this long night surrounding you.

PM me any time you wish.
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sinkingfeeling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #18
24. Why do you say people here are mean? Where in Arkansas are
you? You certainly seem to need some cheering up? How can you hate life if you have a son to care for?
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Nevernose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #18
25. What part of Arkansas?
I grew up around there, and still visit a family member there a couple of times a year.

It's one of my favorite states. I sometimes feel like I could spend the rest of my life living as a mountain man up in the Ozarks, raising pigs and shooting revenuers or whatever the hell it is that mountain men in the Ozarks do this day. It's truly a bit of God's own country.

I actually got back from vacation there just a couple of weeks ago -- and a major highlight was the Bill Clinton Library. And WOW, has downtown Little Rock done a 180 turn or what? We also did some stuff in Hot Springs, went camping somewhere near Lake Ouazchita, and drove East so I could show my kid the Mississippi River. I'd post pictures of her and me doing these wonderful things so I could share with the world, but I still can't figure out how to post pics to the Internet.

Look at it this way: you could live in lots worse places, and be on lots worse boards! :hi:
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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #18
26. I'm sorry I was sarcastic.
But you appear to have some pretty serious problems. Find someone you can talk to--preferably a professional. You owe it to yourself & to your son.


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expatriate Donating Member (853 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #18
32. I am so sorry for your losses and for your hurt.
Unfortunately, there are some people on DU who delight in picking at everything from typos to semantics to statistical method. It's a way they can show their great knowledge, I guess, while pointing out the ignorance and lack of enlightenment the rest of us exhibit. It gets very hard to stomach - and I have noticed, of late, that many people have either "taken a break from DU" or have given up altogether. Many old timers simply don't post any more - why bother when threads turn into debates over word choice or statistical methods, or indignation-fests directed at pointing out racism or sexism that was never intended in the first place? Some threads get so boring and so self-righteous that I never even bother to read beyond a certain point, because it's just so depressing and discouraging. So often, the "corrections" are so pointless and serve no purpose other than to showcase the implied ignorance of the the person being corrected and the superiority of the corrector.

What part of Arkansas are you living in? I have some connections there, and might be able to put you in touch with some organizations and people you would find supportive and copacetic. Though Arkansas is quite conservative, some areas have become retirement havens, and there has been an influx of people with more liberal viewpoints.

I know the pain you're feeling - at this point, I can honestly say that just about everyone I know and love is dead. There are ways to survive this situation though. Please PM me if you wish.
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MamaBear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 04:18 PM
Response to Original message
13. By All Means.
You will find some topics very familiar -- there are commentaries on Old Testament characters, Noah in particular. Good luck finding a "readable" translation. It will be a worthy way to spend some time.
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Frederik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 04:24 PM
Response to Original message
16. If you want to know how the Islamists think
the Koran is not the book you should read. You should read "Milestones" by the Egyptian Sayyid Qutb, written in 1966. He's the chief ideologue of the Islamists. The core idea is that the Muslim world should be free from outside interference and influence.
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blitzen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. also, Qutb's earlier book, "Social Justice in Islam" n/t
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sinkingfeeling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 04:27 PM
Response to Original message
17. I ordered a copy through some place and received an email
that it would be awhile because they had run out of English versions due the response they had gotten. I want to read it.
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Disturbed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #17
21. A letter to you all.
Osama Letter


In the Name of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful,"Permission to fight (against disbelievers) is given to those (believers) who are fought against, because they have been wronged and surely, Allah is Able to give them (believers) victory"

"Those who believe, fight in the Cause of Allah, and those who disbelieve, fight in the cause of Taghut (anything worshipped other than Allah e.g. Satan). So fight you against the friends of Satan; ever feeble is indeed the plot of Satan." Quran 4:76]

Some American writers have published articles under the title 'On what basis are we fighting?' These articles have generated a number of responses, some of which adhered to the truth and were based on Islamic Law, and others which have not. Here we wanted to outline the truth - as an explanation and warning - hoping for Allah's reward, seeking success and support from Him.While seeking Allah's help, we form our reply based on two questions directed at the Americans:

(Q1) Why are we fighting and opposing you?

Q2)What are we calling you to, and what do we want from you? As for the first question: Why are we fighting and opposing you?

The answer is very simple:

(1) Because you attacked us and continue to attack us.

a) You attacked us in Palestine:

(i) Palestine, which has sunk under military occupation for more than 80 years.

The British handed over Palestine, with your help and your support, to the Jews, who have occupied it for more than 50 years; years overflowing with oppression, tyranny, crimes, killing, expulsion, destruction and devastation. The creation and continuation of Israel is one of the greatest crimes, and you are the leaders of its criminals. And of course there is no need to explain and prove the degree of American support for Israel.

The creation of Israel is a crime which must be erased. Each and every person whose hands have become polluted in the contribution towards this crime must pay its*price, and pay for it heavily. (ii) It brings us both laughter and tears to see that you have not yet tired of repeating your fabricated lies that the Jews have a historical right to Palestine, as it was promised to them in the Torah. Anyone who disputes with them on this alleged fact is accused of anti-semitism. This is one of the most fallacious, widely-circulated fabrications in history.

The people of Palestine are pure Arabs and original Semites. It is the Muslims who are the inheritors of Moses (peace be upon him) and the inheritors of the real Torah that has not been changed. Muslims believe in all of the Prophets, including Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad, peace and blessings of Allah be upon them all. If the followers of Moses have been promised a right to Palestine in the Torah, then the Muslims are the most worthy nation of this.

When the Muslims conquered Palestine and drove out the Romans, Palestine and Jerusalem returned to Islaam, the religion of all the Prophets peace be upon them. Therefore, the call to a historical right to Palestine cannot be raised against the Islamic Ummah that believes in all the Prophets of Allah (peace and blessings be upon them) - and we make no distinction between them.

(iii) The blood pouring out of Palestine must be equally revenged. You must know that the Palestinians do not cry alone; their women are not widowed alone; their sons are not orphaned alone.

(b) You attacked us in Somalia; you supported the Russian atrocities against us in Chechnya, the Indian oppression against us in Kashmir, and the Jewish aggression against us in Lebanon. (c) Under your supervision, consent and orders, the governments of our countries which act as your agents, attack us on a daily basis;

(i) These governments prevent our people from establishing the Islamic Shariah, using violence and lies to do so.

(ii) These governments give us a taste of humiliation, and places us in a large prison of fear and subdual.

iii) These governments steal our Ummah's wealth and sell them to you at a paltry price.

(iv) These governments have surrendered to the Jews, and handed them most of Palestine, acknowledging the existence of their state over the dismembered limbs of their own people.

v) The removal of these governments is an obligation upon us, and a necessary step to free the Ummah, to make the Shariah the supreme law and to regain Palestine. And our fight against these governments is not separate from out fight against you.

(d) You steal our wealth and oil at paltry prices because of you international influence and military threats. This theft is indeed the biggest theft ever witnessed by mankind in the history of the world.

(e) Your forces occupy our countries; you spread your military bases throughout them; you corrupt our lands, and you besiege our sanctities, to protect the security of the Jews and to ensure the continuity of your pillage of our treasures.

f) You have starved the Muslims of Iraq, where children die every day. It is a wonder that more than 1.5 million Iraqi children have died as a result of your sanctions, and you did not show concern. Yet when 3000 of your people died, the entire world rises and has not yet sat down.

(g) You have supported the Jews in their idea that Jerusalem is their eternal capital, and agreed to move your embassy there. With your help and under your protection, the Israelis are planning to destroy the Al-Aqsa mosque. Under the protection of your weapons, Sharon entered the Al-Aqsa mosque, to pollute it as a preparation to capture and destroy it.

(2) These tragedies and calamities are only a few examples of your oppression and aggression against us. It is commanded by our religion and intellect that the oppressed have a right to return the aggression. Do not await anything from us but Jihad, resistance and revenge. Is it in any way rational to expect that after America has attacked us for more than half a century, that we will then leave her to live in security and peace?!!

(3) You may then dispute that all the above does not justify aggression against civilians, for crimes they did not commit and offenses in which they did not partake:

(a) This argument contradicts your continuous repetition that America is the land of freedom, and its leaders in this world. Therefore, the American people are the ones who choose their government by way of their own free will; a choice which stems from their agreement to its policies. Thus the American people have chosen, consented to, and affirmed their support for the Israeli oppression of the Palestinians, the occupation and usurpation of their land, and its continuous killing, torture, punishment and expulsion of the Palestinians. The American people have the ability and choice to refuse the policies of their Government and even to change it if they want.

(b) The American people are the ones who pay the taxes which fund the planes that bomb us in Afghanistan, the tanks that strike and destroy our homes in Palestine, the armies which occupy our lands in the Arabian Gulf, and the fleets which ensure the blockade of Iraq. These tax dollars are given to Israel for it to continue to attack us and penetrate our lands. So the American people are the ones who fund the attacks against us, and they are the ones who oversee the expenditure of these monies in the way they wish, through their elected candidates.

(c) Also the American army is part of the American people. It is this very same people who are shamelessly helping the Jews fight against us.

(d) The American people are the ones who employ both their men and their women in the American Forces which attack us.

(e) This is why the American people cannot be not innocent of all the crimes committed by the Americans and Jews against us.

(f) Allah, the Almighty, legislated the permission and the option to take revenge. Thus, if we are attacked, then we have the right to attack back. Whoever has destroyed our villages and towns, then we have the right to destroy their villages and towns. Whoever has stolen our wealth, then we have the right to destroy their economy. And whoever has killed our civilians, then we have the right to kill theirs.

The American Government and press still refuses to answer the question: Why did they attack us in New York and Washington? If Sharon is a man of peace in the eyes of Bush, then we are also men of peace!!! America does not understand the language of manners and principles, so we are addressing it using the language it understands.

Q2) As for the second question that we want to answer: What are we calling you to, and what do we want from you?

(1) The first thing that we are calling you to is Islam.

(a) The religion of the Unification of God; of freedom from associating partners with Him, and rejection of this; of complete love of Him, the Exalted; of complete submission to His Laws; and of the discarding of all the opinions, orders, theories and religions which contradict with the religion He sent down to His Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). Islam is the religion of all the prophets, and makes no distinction between them - peace be upon them all. It is to this religion that we call you; the seal of all the previous religions. It is the religion of Unification of God, sincerity, the best of manners, righteousness, mercy, honour, purity, and piety. It is the religion of showing kindness to others, establishing justice between them, granting them their rights, and defending the oppressed and the persecuted. It is the religion of enjoining the good and forbidding the evil with the hand, tongue and heart. It is the religion of Jihad in the way of Allah so that Allah's Word and religion reign Supreme. And it is the religion of unity and agreement on the obedience to Allah, and total equality between all people, without regarding their colour, sex, or language.

(b) It is the religion whose book - the Quran - will remained preserved and unchanged, after the other Divine books and messages have been changed. The Quran is the miracle until the Day of Judgment. Allah has challenged anyone to bring a book like the Quran or even ten verses like it.

2) The second thing we call you to, is to stop your oppression, lies, immorality and debauchery that has spread among you.

(a) We call you to be a people of manners, principles, honour, and purity; to reject the immoral acts of fornication, homosexuality, intoxicants, gambling's, and trading with interest. We call you to all of this that you may be freed from that which you have become caught up in; that you may be freed from the deceptive lies that you are a great nation, that your leaders spread amongst you to conceal from you the despicable state to which you have reached.

(b) It is saddening to tell you that you are the worst civilization witnessed by the history of mankind:

(i) You are the nation who, rather than ruling by the Shariah of Allah in its Constitution and Laws, choose to invent your own laws as you will and desire. You separate religion from your policies, contradicting the pure nature which affirms Absolute Authority to the Lord and your Creator. You flee from the embarrassing question posed to you: How is it possible for Allah the Almighty to create His creation, grant them power over all the creatures and land, grant them all the amenities of life, and then deny them that which they are most in need of: knowledge of the laws which govern their lives?

(ii) You are the nation that permits Usury, which has been forbidden by all the religions. Yet you build your economy and investments on Usury. As a result of this, in all its different forms and guises, the Jews have taken control of your economy, through which they have then taken control of your media, and now control all aspects of your life making you their servants and achieving their aims at your expense; precisely what Benjamin Franklin warned you against.

(iii) You are a nation that permits the production, trading and usage of intoxicants. You also permit drugs, and only forbid the trade of them, even though your nation is the largest consumer of them.

(iv) You are a nation that permits acts of immorality, and you consider them to be pillars of personal freedom. You have continued to sink down this abyss from level to level until incest has spread amongst you, in the face of which neither your sense of honour nor your laws object. Who can forget your President Clinton's immoral acts committed in the official Oval office? After that you did not even bring him to account, other than that he 'made a mistake', after which everything passed with no punishment. Is there a worse kind of event for which your name will go down in history and remembered by nations?

(v) You are a nation that permits gambling in its all forms. The companies practice this as well, resulting in the investments becoming active and the criminals becoming rich.

(vi) You are a nation that exploits women like consumer products or advertising tools calling upon customers to purchase them. You use women to serve passengers, visitors, and strangers to increase your profit margins. You then rant that you support the liberation of women.

(vii) You are a nation that practices the trade of sex in all its forms, directly and indirectly. Giant corporations and establishments are established on this, under the name of art, entertainment, tourism and freedom, and other deceptive names you attribute to it.

(viii) And because of all this, you have been described in history as a nation that spreads diseases that were unknown to man in the past. Go ahead and boast to the nations of man, that you brought them AIDS as a Satanic American Invention.

(xi) You have destroyed nature with your industrial waste and gases more than any other nation in history. Despite this, you refuse to sign the Kyoto agreement so that you can secure the profit of your greedy companies and*industries.

(x) Your law is the law of the rich and wealthy people, who hold sway in their political parties, and fund their election campaigns with their gifts. Behind them stand the Jews, who control your policies, media and economy.

(xi) That which you are singled out for in the history of mankind, is that you have used your force to destroy mankind more than any other nation in history; not to defend principles and values, but to hasten to secure your interests and profits. You who dropped a nuclear bomb on Japan, even though Japan was ready to negotiate an end to the war. How many acts of oppression, tyranny and injustice have you carried out, O callers to freedom?

(xii) Let us not forget one of your major characteristics: your duality in both manners and values; your hypocrisy in manners and principles. All*manners, principles and values have two scales: one for you and one for the others.

(a)The freedom and democracy that you call to is for yourselves and for white race only; as for the rest of the world, you impose upon them your monstrous, destructive policies and Governments, which you call the 'American friends'. Yet you prevent them from establishing democracies. When the Islamic party in Algeria wanted to practice democracy and they won the election, you unleashed your agents in the Algerian army onto them, and to attack them with tanks and guns, to imprison them and torture them - a new lesson from the 'American book of democracy'!!!

(b)Your policy on prohibiting and forcibly removing weapons of mass destruction to ensure world peace: it only applies to those countries which you do not permit to possess such weapons. As for the countries you consent to, such as Israel, then they are allowed to keep and use such weapons to defend their security. Anyone else who you suspect might be manufacturing or keeping these kinds of weapons, you call them criminals and you take military action against them.

(c)You are the last ones to respect the resolutions and policies of International Law, yet you claim to want to selectively punish anyone else who does the same. Israel has for more than 50 years been pushing UN resolutions and rules against the wall with the full support of America.

(d)As for the war criminals which you censure and form criminal courts for - you shamelessly ask that your own are granted immunity!! However, history will not forget the war crimes that you committed against the Muslims and the rest of the world; those you have killed in Japan, Afghanistan, Somalia, Lebanon and Iraq will remain a shame that you will never be able to escape. It will suffice to remind you of your latest war crimes in Afghanistan, in which densely populated innocent civilian villages were destroyed, bombs were dropped on mosques causing the roof of the mosque to come crashing down on the heads of the Muslims praying inside. You are the ones who broke the agreement with the Mujahideen when they left Qunduz, bombing them in Jangi fort, and killing more than 1,000 of your prisoners through suffocation and thirst. Allah alone knows how many people have died by torture at the hands of you and your agents. Your planes remain in the Afghan skies, looking for anyone remotely suspicious.

(e)You have claimed to be the vanguards of Human Rights, and your Ministry of Foreign affairs issues annual reports containing statistics of those countries that violate any Human Rights. However, all these things vanished when the Mujahideen hit you, and you then implemented the methods of the same documented governments that you used to curse. In America, you captured thousands the Muslims and Arabs, took them into custody with neither reason, court trial, nor even disclosing their names. You issued newer, harsher laws. What happens in Guatanamo is a historical embarrassment to America and its values, and it screams into your faces - you hypocrites, "What is the value of your signature on any agreement or treaty?"

(3) What we call you to thirdly is to take an honest stance with yourselves - and I doubt you will do so - to discover that you are a nation without principles or manners, and that the values and principles to you are something which you merely demand from others, not that which you yourself must adhere to.

(4) We also advise you to stop supporting Israel, and to end your support of the Indians in Kashmir, the Russians against the Chechens and to also cease supporting the Manila Government against the Muslims in Southern Philippines.

(5) We also advise you to pack your luggage and get out of our lands. We desire for your goodness, guidance, and righteousness, so do not force us to send you back as cargo in coffins.

(6) Sixthly, we call upon you to end your support of the corrupt leaders in our countries. Do not interfere in our politics and method of education. Leave us alone, or else expect us in New York and Washington.

(7) We also call you to deal with us and interact with us on the basis of mutual interests and benefits, rather than the policies of sub dual, theft and occupation, and not to continue your policy of supporting the Jews because this will result in more disasters for you. If you fail to respond to all these conditions, then prepare for fight with the Islamic Nation. The Nation of Monotheism, that puts complete trust on Allah and fears none other than Him. The Nation which is addressed by its Quran with the words: "Do you fear them? Allah has more right that you should fear Him if you are believers. Fight against them so that Allah will punish them by your hands and disgrace them and give you victory over them and heal the breasts of believing people. And remove the anger of their (believers') hearts. Allah accepts the repentance of whom He wills. Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise."

The Nation of honour and respect: "But honour, power and glory belong to Allah, and to His Messenger (Muhammad- peace be upon him) and to the believers."

"So do not become weak (against your enemy), nor be sad, and you will be*superior ( in victory )if you are indeed (true) believers"

The Nation of Martyrdom; the Nation that desires death more than you desire life: "Think not of those who are killed in the way of Allah as dead. Nay, they are alive with their Lord, and they are being provided for. They rejoice in what Allah has bestowed upon them from His bounty and rejoice for the sake of those who have not yet joined them, but are left behind (not yet martyred) that on them no fear shall come, nor shall they grieve. They rejoice in a grace and a bounty from Allah, and that Allah will not waste the reward of the believers."

The Nation of victory and success that Allah has promised: "It is He Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad peace be upon him) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islam), to make it victorious over all other religions even though the Polytheists hate it."

"Allah has decreed that 'Verily it is I and My Messengers who shall be victorious.' Verily Allah is All-Powerful, All-Mighty."

The Islamic Nation that was able to dismiss and destroy the previous evil Empires like yourself; the Nation that rejects your attacks, wishes to remove your evils, and is prepared to fight you. You are well aware that the Islamic Nation, from the very core of its soul, despises your haughtiness and arrogance. If the Americans refuse to listen to our advice and the goodness, guidance and righteousness that we call them to, then be aware that you will lose this Crusade Bush began, just like the other previous Crusades in which you were humiliated by the hands of the Mujahideen, fleeing to your home in great silence and disgrace.

If the Americans do not respond, then their fate will be that of the Soviets who fled from Afghanistan to deal with their military defeat, political breakup, ideological downfall, and economic bankruptcy. This is our message to the Americans, as an answer to theirs. Do they now know why we fight them and over which form of ignorance, by the permission of Allah, we shall be victorious?






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blitzen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 04:31 PM
Response to Original message
19. Maybe start with Michael Sells' translation of the early
Meccan revelations (mostly the shorter suras that come toward the end of Qur'an) and then go from there.

Sells' book is "Approaching the Qur'an; The Early Revelations"
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1883991269/qid=1122413257/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_ur_2_1/104-5859035-1887167


I would also recommend W. Montgomery Watt, "Muhammad: Prophet and Statesman"
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western mass Donating Member (718 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 04:41 PM
Response to Original message
22. Reading the bible
won't tell you anything about the average Christian. The average Christian has only the vaguest notion about what's actually in the Bible.

The same holds true for Muslims and the Koran.

No doubt true for most <insert holy book> and <insert followers>.

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maxsolomon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 07:43 PM
Response to Original message
27. perhaps i should clarify
i never thought i'd find out "why they hate us" by reading only the Koran. i've read OBL's "letter to america", and i think i understand the basic argument. if they think modernism will leave them alone because they drive america & the west out of the umma, they're dumb as fucking rocks.

i want to read for myself the parts that are used as justification for those aspects of Islam i have trouble accepting: the misogyny, basically. and i know that christianity is not much better. i don't expect to find much, just the same sort of open ended ancient parables like those the christians pervert to justify their predjudiced outlook.
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alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 07:49 PM
Response to Original message
28. Yes. Be sure to read Sura 9:11 so you can refute rightwing lies
about the Koran.

The last three chapters are the most readable.
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billbuckhead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 07:55 PM
Response to Original message
29. Yeah, but don't get carried away
:hippie:
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Emendator Donating Member (243 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 07:55 PM
Response to Original message
30. Try this - Sceptics' Annotated Koran
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/

Definately read it. It's hard to follow in English, it doesn't flow well, and is repetitive with unending threats of "suffering a painful doom". The subjects change abruptly. But this website will help you get through it with ease and humor. Then you can see what a bunch of garbage is in there. It's a nonsensical book. The frequency with which it condemns nonbelievers is appalling.
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deadparrot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-05 08:03 PM
Response to Original message
33. I couldn't get through the Bible,
but I'm not into any sort of religion or religious document. I can appreciate certain religious passages for what they are, often a tool for good, but I'm a little wary of the whole package, and the effects that such works have on people. I can appreciate that the philosophy was cutting-edge at the time it was written, but now it's just cruel. It serves little purpose for me, other than hiking up my blood pressure to unhealthy levels.

But that's me and my organized religion rant.

Take a crack at it if you want, however. I'm sure it would go a long way in your own self-education.
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