New WP Rovegate Story: THE BIG REVELATION on THE Memo

[Beetwasher]

In all the threads I'm seeing on this story it seems not many are catching the BIG revelation. It's the last paragraph:

--snip--

"People familiar with this part of the probe provided new details about the memo, including that it was then-Deputy Secretary of State Richard L. Armitage who requested it the day Wilson went public and asked that a copy be sent to then-Secretary of State Colin L. Powell to take with him on a trip to Africa the next day. Bush and several top aides were on that trip. Carl W. Ford Jr., who was director of the Bureau of Intelligence and Research at the time and who supervised the original production of the memo, has appeared before the grand jury, a former State Department official said."

--snip--

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/26/AR2005072602069.html

Now this may be disinfo to throw the blame Armitage's way, or it may be true. However, the implications of either of those scenarios are HUGE. Armitage doesn't like these guys and this would almost certainly indicate that Armitage has testified before the Grand Jury. Armitage is a guy who would know many things, and it seems he does not like these scumbags, not one bit. He would NOT lie for them and I do believe he would do much to see them brought down.

For more background and terrific info on Armitage's role in the admin and his frame of mind, please read H2O Man's terrific post from the other day here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=4185031

[in_cog_ni_to]

1. I thought Armitage HATED Bush?

Why would he help do this? OR are they just trying to lay the blame on a Bush hater?

[Beetwasher]

6. Well, That's The Question

As I said, he may have requested the memo, OR this may be Rovian disinfo...

If he requested it, he may not have wrote it, OR as has been previously conjectured it may have been recycled and re-dated from and EARLIER memo...In any event, he should know to whom it was distributed, I would think and he almost certainly testified before the GJ...

[Jacobin]

36. Armitage is/was at war with the neo-cons

They couldn't stand him

[sunnystarr]

44. Armitage was under Powell

So it seemed to me like Powell wanted a copy of that memo and Armitage got it for him. Looks like Powell got just as he was leaving for Africa. So maybe Armitage faxed it over for him. The bigger question is why did Powell want it.

[BlueWolff]

2. link to article please

[emulatorloo]

3. Link Here -- read every word, very very interesting

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/26/AR2005072602069_pf.html

<snip>

Prosecutor In CIA Leak Case Casting A Wide Net
White House Effort To Discredit Critic Examined in Detail
By Walter Pincus and Jim VandeHei
Washington Post Staff Writers
Wednesday, July 27, 2005; Page A01

The special prosecutor in the CIA leak probe has interviewed a wider range of administration officials than was previously known, part of an effort to determine whether anyone broke laws during a White House effort two years ago to discredit allegations that President Bush used faulty intelligence to justify the Iraq war, according to several officials familiar with the case.

<snip>

In doing so, special prosecutor Patrick J. Fitzgerald has asked not only about how CIA operative Valerie Plame's name was leaked but also how the administration went about shifting responsibility from the White House to the CIA for having included 16 words in the 2003 State of the Union address about Iraqi efforts to acquire uranium from Africa, an assertion that was later disputed.

<snip>

[BlueWolff]

5. Thank you

[Me.]

4. On The Thread You Referenced

there is conjecture that the *ushinistas had been setting up Powell as the fall guy and Armitage, Powell's best friend, was always going to do what he could to help him. There is a timeline, which I've copied here, which shows the sequence of events and the dates leading up to Powell getting the memo and lends some plausibility to the story. But how, I'd like to know, did Armitage know to ask for it, if the memo was the result of the work-up meeting done on Wilson by the veeps office? I can't see them telling Armitage about it.

March 8, 2003 - Joe Wilson appears on CNN regarding Wh claims regarding wmds (work-up meeting occurs a few day after)

June 10, 2003 - Memo written

July 6, 2003 - Wilson column is printed

July 7, 2003

[melissinha]

10. Dailykos has timeline you can use

To make your timeline including Armitage/Powell pieces... can't get into it now myself cause of work filter.

[Me.]

14. Don't Know What Happened To The Rest Of It

and boy does the editing time expire fast! Here is what I intended to post:

March 8, 2003 - Joe Wilson appears on CNN regarding Wh claims regarding wmds (work-up meeting occurs a few day after)

June 10, 2003 - Memo written

July 6, 2003 - Wilson column is printed

July 7, 2003 – Memo sent to Powell on Africa trip

July 8, 2003 - Novak & Rove speak

July 11, 2003 – Cooper & Rove speak

July 14, 2003 - Novak Column printed

[Beetwasher]

17. Re: How Did Armitage Know To Request The Memo

That's a good question. I can only speculate that Armitage is a deep player and heard about it's existence from friends. Armitage has been around for quite a while and I'm sure has many such friends.

[Garbo 2004]

99. It was a state dept memo to begin with. Originally written June 10.

From the WaPo:

The material in the memo about Wilson's wife was based on notes taken by an INR analyst who attended a Feb. 19, 2002, meeting at the CIA where Wilson's intelligence-gathering trip to Niger was discussed.

The memo was drafted June 10, 2003, for Undersecretary of State Marc Grossman, who asked to be brought up to date on INR's opposition to the White House view that Hussein was trying to buy uranium in Africa...

...On July 6, 2003, shortly after Wilson went public on NBC's "Meet the Press" and in The Post and the New York Times discussing his trip to Niger, the INR director at the time, Carl W. Ford Jr., was asked to explain Wilson's statements for Powell, according to sources familiar with the events. He went back and reprinted the June 10 memo but changed the addressee from Grossman to Powell.

Ford last year appeared before the federal grand jury investigating the leak and described the details surrounding the INR memo, the sources said. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/20/AR2005072002517_2.html

[H2O Man]

7. The administration is

pathological in their lying and attempting to lay blame with anyone who disagrees with them. Even if Armitage did request that the memo be sent to Powell, it does not translate into Powell being the "mastermind" of the conspiracy to expose Plame. You will recall from my thread that Powell and Armitage had gone to the CIA HQ before he gave his speech to the UN. Although the VP was pressuring Powell to use the Niger yellowcake "evidence," Powell refused.

Before I said anything, several of the DUers who are familiar with this scandal had posted their thoughts on the administration's plan to blame Powell. They were absolutely on target.

[Beetwasher]

8. Yup

I suspect that the info that the memo was requested by Armitage for Powell is another Luskin/Rove leak...Although IF Armitage did in fact request the memo that also has it's own interesting implications considering his animosity towards the scum.

[Toots]

9. Wasn't Armitage also a part of the Reagan Administration

and a part of Iran/Contra. I don't think he is any less culpable than the rest of the slime that has infected America.

[Beetwasher]

11. Yes, But Read H2O Man's Thread

n/t

[H2O Man]

46. That's an important point.

And we need to keep that in mind when we discuss the current events. At the same time, we would do well to realize that people can and do change. When I think of Senator Robert Byrd, I don't think of the racist who advocated the federal government putting a stop to Rev. King's Poor People's Campaign; I think of an elder statesman who honors the constitution. When I remember Malcolm X, I don't think of a criminal so vile that prison inmates called him "satan"; I think of the minister who rescued people from life and death in the gutter.

Armitage isn't a Byrd, and he surely isn't another Malcolm. But he may be closer to a John Dean. If he is going to help expose the criminal behaviors of senior White House offenders, then I think we will do well to give him a chance to redeem himself.

[Last Lemming]

12. I'll bet

you can identify those least likey to have been a part of this: they are the ones that are being sleased:
Ari Fleischer
Richard Armitage
I suspect these are the guys who won't play ball.

[Beetwasher]

13. Don't Know About Fleischer

He's up to his eyes in this, I think. But Armitage is almost certainly NOT playing ball w/ Bushco.

[Me.]

15. Ari Called Rove From The Plane During The Africa Trip

SUPPOSEDLY it was then that Rove learned about V Plame, or at least that it how they are trying to set it up. Powell showed Ari the memo, Ari tells Rove, Rove confirms Novak, and in a nice little circle it all leads back to Powell or so they are trying to say.

[Beetwasher]

16. Actually, I'm Of The Opinion

That they all learned about it from Bolton and the memo is just ancilliary evidence.

[Me.]

21. I Certainly Believe Bolton Is In The Mix

and was quite likely Miller's source. But the scenario in my previous post is how they're trying to frame it, to pin the whole thing on Powell, spinning it to make it seem he was the source of the leak. After he refused to put the 16 words in his speech to the UN, they had him pegged as a non team player and were out to get him.

[Beetwasher]

22. Yes, There's Definitely That Going On Too

That would be the intent of the source (possibly Luskin) claiming Armitage requested the memo for Powell.

[Lecky]

29. I think you are right about Bolton

I bet Mr. Mustache was the one who filled Judith Miller in as well. They seem to be "tight".

[Beetwasher]

18. Also Note: CARL FORD JR. SUPERVISED THE ORIGINAL PRODUCTION

Of the infamous memo (supposedly). This is also new, important information I believe.

[robertpaulsen]

19. I've got to post this again: Armitage CLASHED with Bolton.

Powell Aide Says Armitage, Bolton Clashed
Apparent Supporter of U.N. Nominee Said to Have Questioned His Diplomatic Tone

By Glenn Kessler
Washington Post Staff Writer
Tuesday, May 10, 2005; Page A02

Former deputy secretary of state Richard L. Armitage, who last week appeared to endorse John R. Bolton's nomination as U.N. ambassador, had frequent battles with Bolton over his diplomatic tone, a top aide to former secretary of state Colin L. Powell said in an interview released yesterday by Senate investigators.

Larry Wilkerson, Powell's chief of staff, said Armitage was furious about a provocative speech Bolton gave on North Korea in July 2003, though the State Department noted that Armitage's office had approved it. Armitage also ordered the delay of congressional testimony Bolton planned on Syria's weapons programs at the time, he added.

In an interview Friday with Senate Foreign Relations Committee staff, Wilkerson said he was "somewhat" surprised by Armitage's statement last week about Bolton "because I worked with Rich closely" at the State Department. His testimony adds to a portrait of frequent policy conflicts between the strong-willed Bolton, the undersecretary for arms control, and his bureaucratic rivals in the foreign policy and intelligence fields.

more...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/05/09/AR2005050901155.html

Now, who wrote this memo for Grossman at the State Department? Who at the State Department around this time was obsessed with the same WMD issues Plame specialized in at Brewster Jennings & Associates? Who was willing to take this obsession to the extent of spying on fellow State Department employees?

[Beetwasher]

20. Yup, My Theory Is Bolton Is The Initial Source

for the leak of Plame's identity. Remember all those NSA intercepts that the Senate Dems wanted to get a hold of during his confirmation hearings? I suspect that's where he got her name and info and HE passed it on to Karl/Libby/Fleischer who passed it on to Novak et al.

[robertpaulsen]

23. HOLY SHIT! Googling for info on Ford & Bolton, I found this:

MYSTERY SURROUNDS DEATH

OF STATE DEPT. OFFICIAL

by Wayne Madsen

November 20, 2003 (FTW), WASHINGTON -- In a case eerily reminiscent of the death of British Ministry of Defense bio-weapons expert, Dr. David Kelly, an official of the State Department's Bureau of Intelligence and Research Near East and South Asian division (INR/NESA), John J. Kokal, 58, was found dead in the late afternoon of November 7. Police indicated he may have jumped from the roof of the State Department. Kokal's body was found at the bottom of a 20 foot window well, 8 floors below the roof of the State Department headquarters near the 23rd and D Street location. Kokal's death was briefly mentioned in a FOX News website story on November 8 but has been virtually overlooked by the major media.

snip

State Department officials dispute official State Department communiqués that said Kokal was not an analyst at INR. People who know Kokal told the French publication Geopolitique that Kokal was involved in the analysis of intelligence about Iraq prior to and during the war against Saddam Hussein.

Another INR official, weapons expert Greg Thielmann, said he and INR were largely ignored by Under Secretary for Arms Control and International Security John Bolton and his deputy, David Wurmser, a pro-Likud neo-conservative who recently became Vice President Dick Cheney's Middle East adviser. Kokal's former boss, the recently retired chief of INR, Carl W. Ford, recently said that Bolton often exaggerated information to steer people in the wrong directions.

more...

http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/112003_kokal.html

I've never heard of Kokal and I don't know if there were any further investigations or revelations about his death. But it was the last sentence I highlighted that really caught my attention. Perhaps, knowing the misadministration's penchant for smear and lies, Ford and Armitage organized a trap to frame Bolton & Wurmser? Wasn't there a UPI article that said Wurmser was a target of Fitzgerald's investigation?

I'll see if I can find any more info.

[Beetwasher]

24. Yeah, I Thought Ford Was Probably In Armitage's Camp

and at odds w/ Bushco. Looks like Bushco. (Bolton) may have had one of his guys whacked...I'll bet he's not too happy about that.

Good find! :thumbsup:

[robertpaulsen]

25. Here's more on Bolton's henchmen Wurmser and Hannah.

From Justin Raimondo:

Conveniently, two of Bolton's assistants, David Wurmser and John Hannah, also worked in Cheney's office. A story by UPI's Richard Sale, published last year, points at Cheney's office and specifically at Hannah as having played a key role in all this:

"Federal law-enforcement officials said that they have developed hard evidence of possible criminal misconduct by two employees of Vice President Dick Cheney's office related to the unlawful exposure of a CIA officer's identity last year. The investigation, which is continuing, could lead to indictments, a Justice Department official said.

"According to these sources, John Hannah and Cheney's chief of staff, Lewis 'Scooter' Libby, were the two Cheney employees. 'We believe that Hannah was the major player in this,' one federal law-enforcement officer said. … The strategy of the FBI is to make clear to Hannah 'that he faces a real possibility of doing jail time' as a way to pressure him to name superiors, one federal law-enforcement official said."

more...

http://www.antiwar.com/justin/?articleid=6677

[robertpaulsen]

26. More on the Armitage/Powell vs. Bolton feud.

From an LA Times article with an expired link:

When John R. Bolton charged into the State Department in 2001 as President Bush's top arms control official, he thought of himself as a loyal Republican soldier on a mission into hostile political territory, according to friends and colleagues.
That assessment became a self-fulfilling prophesy. In the course of the four years Bolton served as an undersecretary of State, he had a succession of ideological and personal clashes with subordinates, colleagues and superiors.

Eventually, Colin L. Powell, secretary of State at the time, ordered his deputy, Richard L. Armitage, to keep tabs on Bolton and prevent him from alienating allies, three current and former State Department officials said. One of the officials said that he was specifically assigned to "mind" Bolton and report back if the undersecretary's activities were creating problems.

"John was a super-frustrated guy, pinioned at the wrists by Rich (Armitage), held down and clubbed regularly by his own people, and generally nullified by the secretary's skills at thwarting him," said one of the former senior officials, a lifelong Republican who said he "despised" Bolton.

Foreign diplomats who have made no secret of their dislike for Bolton said they were told by other State Department officials that they should not assume that Bolton's hard-line pronouncements on issues such as North Korea or Iran represented administration policy. In public, though, Powell and Armitage unfailingly defended Bolton and denied the existence of a rift.

more...

http://www.thewashingtonnote.com/archives/000545.html

edited to include Armitage

[Me.]

38. This Is A Huge Find RP

I've been wondering how Hannah fit into all of this and now I know.

[robertpaulsen]

50. Thanks Me!

Yeah, Hannah's always been kind of a mystery man in this scandal. But seeing his ties to Bolton and Cheney, the pieces of the puzzle fit together just a little bit better.

Here's more from the same link:

"Salon: You mention two other names: John Hannah, who works in the Office of the Vice President, and David Wurmser, who is a special assistant to John Bolton, the undersecretary of state for arms control and national security. Last Wednesday, their names both appeared on a chart that accompanied an article in the New York Times about the Pentagon's Office of Special Plans and the war cabal within the Bush administration. Did these people run an intelligence operation against you?"


"Wilson: I don't know if it's the same unit, but it's very clear, from what I've heard, that the meeting in March 2003 led to an intelligence operation against my family and me. That's what a work-up is – to try to find everything you can about an American citizen."

snip

Hannah is Cheney's Middle East policy point-man, and before that was director of the Washington Institute for Near East Policy (WINEP). Middle East expert Juan Cole shines his reportorial flashlight on what's under that particular rock:

"Libby and Hannah form part of a 13-man vice presidential advisory team, sort of a veep NSC , which helps underpin Cheney's dominance in the US foreign policy area. Hannah is a neoconservative and old cold warrior who is really more of a Soviet expert than a Middle East expert. But in the 90s he for a while headed up the Washington Institute for Near East Policy (WINEP), a think tank that represents the interests of the American Israel Political Action Committee (AIPAC). Hannah is said to have been behind Cheney's and consequently Bush's support for refusing to deal with Yasser Arafat. But he was also deeply involved in getting up the Iraq war.…"

http://www.antiwar.com/justin/?articleid=6677

How about that? Hannah may be the link between AIPAC(Larry Franklin) and the Plame scandal. I hope Fitzgerald is exploring this link.

[donkeyotay]

67. I hope Fitzgerald explores it too, because the FBI investigation

into Larry Franklin seems to have been as fruitful as their work leading up to 9-11 and their look-see into the fraudulent Niger documents. Attention all Sibel Edmonds fans: Larry Franklin spoke Farsi (NYTs Aug. 30, 2004. "Officials Say Publicity Derailed Secrets Inquiry" by David Johnston and Eric Schmitt) And let us not forget Karen Kwiatkowski.

Anyone think the FBI and the congress will get to the bottom of this and report to the American people? Or should that be the Mushroom people (kept in the dark and fed manure)?

[robertpaulsen]

79. The FBI might, Congress won't.

I think the FBI has a number of loyal dedicated investigators who are eager to put all the pieces of the puzzle together. I just saw a great documentary on Watergate that showed how, even though Nixon told the CIA to tell the head of the FBI to curtail the investigation, that wasn't enough to stop the rest of the FBI from connecting the dots. Hopefully there are still enough FBI agents like that today.

But Congress is a different story. No longer is the balance of parties like it was during Watergate. Also, since the whole Whitewater/Monicagate debacle, I think there was some law they put in place to put limit on "investigations". But of course, that's not stopping Roberts from investigating the probe rather than the leak. It's all at their own discretion, and their discretion sucks!

Karen Kwiatkowski. I seem to remember reading some article she wrote related to the AIPAC scandal. I'll try to find it.

[rumpel]

28. It is quite intriguing that only Fox "briefly" reported this.

[robertpaulsen]

30. No kidding. I checked the Fox link, they deleted it from their site.

But I did find this Madsen update on the story at onlinejournal:

Now that Bolton has been nominated for U.S. ambassador to the United Nations and we have learned through Senate Foreign Relations Committee hearings that Bolton was verbally and physically abusive to his colleagues over the past several years, it is time to take a close look at some violent deaths of State Department and CIA officials who tangled with the Bush administration over Iraq policy.

It is noteworthy that Bolton's ideological soul mate at the National Security Council (NSC), ex-Iran-Contra felon Elliot Abrams, has also been psychologically and physically abusive to his subordinates. Bolton and Abrams are long-time friends, having both helped devise the neoconservative game plan for U.S. global domination through their activities with the Project for a New American Century (PNAC).

According to a UPI report, Abrams once led CIA officer Ben Miller (who was on loan to the NSC from the agency) to an open window at the NSC and told him to jump. Abrams and Bolton share a mercurial and maniacal management style that includes physical threats against subordinates. While Bolton was demanding the firing of State Department and CIA personnel, including State Department analyst Christian Westermann and CIA officer Fulton Armstrong, Abrams fired Miller and two of his NSC colleagues, Flynt Leverett and Hillary Mann.

Ford testified before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee that Bolton was a "quintessential kiss-up and kick-down sort of guy." A lingering question is whether Bolton is a "kick out" (as in window) sort of guy. Since Abrams's position at the NSC does not require Senate approval, the testimonies of Miller, Leverett, and Mann against Abrams were never heard by Congress.

more...

http://www.onlinejournal.com/Special_Reports/042105Madsen/042105madsen.html

Abrams, of course, is also under investigation by Fitzgerald in Plamegate.

[rumpel]

52. Jump! Quite some years ago someone else jumped to his death, was it a

technician or chemist?

and on Fox: maybe informed a specific audience? That would really be too much..


:freak:

[ignatzmouse]

81. Try link at the Internet Archive

It may be worth checking the Fox link at the Internet Archive http://www.archive.org/. It's a great reference tool that periodically saves a copy of a spidered internet. One can type in a url and see how it appeared at different points in time.

[robertpaulsen]

84. Here's the response I got:

Robots.txt Query Exclusion.



We're sorry, access to http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,102563,00.html has been blocked by the site owner via robots.txt.
Read more about robots.txt
See the site's robots.txt file.
Try another request or click here to search for all pages on foxnews.com/story/0,2933,102563,00.html
See the FAQs for more info and help, or contact us.



Wow, robots. This is really getting :tinfoilhat:

[donkeyotay]

48. Good stuff RP

So memo, memo, schmemo. The memo, the one that the same media 'ho's that brought us this war are now promoting, implicates Powell, Armitage and Ford. That's interesting. What the memo doesn't explain for me is how did highly classified information get into the memo or any other document, email, phone call, etc.

What did someone do, call up the CIA and say, "We're looking for some dirt on Wilson," and they coughed up the identity of a covert operation looking for WMDs? I don't get it.

It makes more sense to think it was something uncovered while the neocons were manipulating intelligence for their war and trashing anyone who got in their way.

[robertpaulsen]

53. Trashing anyone everywhere.

Much has been written about the "purging" of the CIA by the neocons, but I think it's obvious that they were not the only government organization to suffer this fate. Powell, Armitage and Ford were all "purged" from the State Department in one way or another. I hope Madsen is wrong that this "purging" took a literal form in Kokal's case, but I would not put murder past the neocons; they've got plenty of blood on their hands already.

[Trish1168]

56. Wow....that's incredible. Where was Bolton on that day?

Seriously, was he anywhere in the vicinity? Bolton seems so crazy to me, it seems possible to me that he could throw someone off the roof.

[LondonReign2]

69. Can't wait for Chimpy

to pull a Ken Lay on Bolton. "Bolton?" the Chimp grunts while scratching himself. "I barely know him. He contributed to my opponent," the simian added.

[H2O Man]

47. Great post, RP!

Right on target. I will add one thing: Who else was ABLE to do those things you mention? It's a short list.

[robertpaulsen]

51. Very short list.

In true All the President's Men fashion, let me ask:

Was there a B?

Is there an H?

How about a W?

[robertpaulsen]

54. One more possibility:

Was there an A?

[Beetwasher]

55. This Paragraph Has ALWAYS Stuck in My Mind From This Article:

"Congressional officials also said it appeared the intelligence committee's chairman and ranking Democrat would receive a briefing today on Bolton's requests to obtain the names of Americans redacted in 10 communication intercepts. Intelligence officials would not confirm that, however."

Those names are the pot of gold. The Dems knew, that's why they were pushing so hard. I'd bet bucketful of pennies that Plame is on that list.

The Big Question: Would Fitz ever be able to get access to those (unredacted) intercepts???

[txindy]

62. I'd bet considerably more than that

At least a bucketful of silver dollars! ;-)

I'm with you, I've always thought that Plame's name is on those intercepts and that Bolton is in this up to his eyeballs.

As for whether the SP can gain access to them, I don't see why not. It may take the SCOTUS to get them, though, and I'm sure that'll work out well. :banghead:

Seriously, though, if Fitzgerald can make his case, I think the courts may very well have those documents turned over to him. Things seem to be going his way so far, which leads me to believe that he has connected the dots extremely well. The courts have granted his every request to date.

[robertpaulsen]

63. My biggest hope and fear: Fitz already has them.

It's my biggest hope because it might be the smoking gun tying Bolton with Plamegate. Once you do that, it ties into AIPAC with Hannah, Khan's Nuclear Walmart with Cheney, DSM with Shrub, the list goes on and on. This is the widening of the scope of the investigation that has occurred, I hope. And all that's left is getting Miller to break down and corroborate under oath.

Except. Pat Fucking Roberts. If Fitzgerald does have the intercepts, I think Roberts would know, which would explain his motive for doing an investigation of the probe instead of the leak. Rove is smart enough to know what happened the last time a President with a Special Prosecutor on his back ordered a Saturday Night Massacre, and he's told dimson all about it. So instead they're going to attempt this "backdoor" Saturday Night Massacre by having Roberts do a work-up on the probe while Rove, I can only assume, looks for dirt on Fitzgerald's wife. They're desperate, they're backed in a corner, and I fear they're going to lash out with everything they've got.

I believe that sometime this autumn, the "tectonic shift" Josh Marshall referred to will no longer be hyperbole. It will be reality.

[hang a left]

68. I hope his case can be made without Miller.

you said:

"And all that's left is getting Miller to break down and corroborate under oath."

I think that Miller will hang out until October. Don't you? If he absolutely needs Miller to make his case, wouldn't you think that Pat Roberts knows this. He must feel like he has plenty of time to "review" Fitzgerald's investigation. This also means that Fitzgerald will need an extension. Will he get it?

[Me.]

71. I've Always Thought It Would Take Miller About A Month

She's at the halfway point now and everyone has gone on with their lives. There is no huge outcry (to the contrary in fact), her husband is on a cruise and Fitz is considering slapping her with criminal contempt. I'll give her until the end of August in that nice, warm jail cell.

[hang a left]

72. What I have to ask you next is...

Who do you think she is shielding? Do you think she may have been a source for someone else? Do you think her refusal to cooperate is part of a conspiracy with her source? ie they demanded that she not talk?

[Beetwasher]

73. She's Hiding Her Own Criminal Conduct and WILLFUL Role in the Conspiracy

There's a good post by Arianna Huffington about this on her blog.

Miller is guilty of playing a central part in the conspiracy. She was pushing the WMD propoganda and got pissed at Wilson for blowing the lid off, so she actively conspired w/ Bushco. to blow his wife's cover.

DU Thread on Miller here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=4206966&mesg_id=4206966

[hang a left]

74. Thanks Beetwasher.

I have read the article and the thread. I devour all the Plame threads. What is your opinion on how long she will sit in jail? Really 4 months is nothing. I would sit in jail for much longer than that if my life depended on it.

[Beetwasher]

75. If Fitz Hits Her W/ Criminal Contempt, As Has Been Mentioned

It could be somewhat longer...Right now it's only civil contempt...Not really sure though how long...For someone like Miller though, 4 months IS a long time...Trust me, she's fucking miserable right now, guaranteed and she may not be getting out for a while longer if Fitz hits her w/ crimial contempt. Meanwhile, her husband is out on a luxury cruise!!! Ha Ha!!! That's gotta suck!

[hang a left]

77. If they charge her with criminal contempt, she is entitled to a trial

http://talkleft.com/new_archives/011514.html

Because different substantive and procedural rules apply to civil and criminal contempts, distinctions between the two forms of contempt are important. "Criminal contempt is a crime in the ordinary sense," Bloom v. Illinois, 391 U.S. 194, 201 (1968), and "criminal penalties may not be imposed on someone who has not been afforded the protections that the Constitution requires of such criminal proceedings." Hicks v. Feiock, 485 U.S. 624, 632 (1988). These constitutional protections include the right (1) not to be subject to double jeopardy, see United States v. Dixon, 509 U.S. 688, 695 (1993); In re Bradley, 318 U.S. 50 (1943); (2) to receive notice of the charges, (3) to receive assistance of counsel; (4) to receive summary process; (5) to present a defense, Cooke v. United States, 267 U.S. 515, 537 (1925); (6) not to self-incriminate oneself, and (7) to proof beyond a reasonable doubt, Gompers v. Bucks Stove & Range Co., 221 U.S. 418, 444 (1911). For serious criminal contempts involving imprisonment of more than six months, these protections include the right to a jury trial. Bloom, 391 U.S. at 199.

By contrast, civil contempt sanctions--which are designed to compel future compliance with a court order--are coercive and avoidable through obedience, and "thus may be imposed in an ordinary civil proceeding upon notice and an opportunity to be heard. Neither a jury trial nor proof beyond a reasonable doubt is required." International Union, UMWA v. Bagwell, 512 U.S. 821, 114 S.Ct. 2552, 2557 (1994).

[Me.]

78. Interesting...

As a trial with evidence would ensue, I wonder if this is Fitz's stratagem for getting the evidence in one way or another. As for your question of who she is shielding, my personal opinion is that it is one of two people, and as they are "inter-related" it may end up being the same thing, Cheney and Bolton. I also wonder, which has been talked about very little lately what Wolfowitz's role was in all of this. He was at that first big Iraq meeting and, he was very cosy with Chalabi, who we know Miller championed. Since moving to the World Bank his name seems to have fallen off the gridiron. And I also agree with BW that Ms. Miller may have played more than a passive, journalist receiving info from a source, role here. The Huffington post struck a real chord. "Oh what a tangled web we weave...."

[robertpaulsen]

80. That's what I was thinking too.

I believe every person that ends up being indicted, regardless of the charge, gets their own separate trial. If Miller does get indicted for criminal contempt, and then the evidence she is withholding comes out in the trial, I think it could still be applied to any of the other guilty parties to this conspiracy, provided their trial had not already ended. Not being lawyer though, I'm just guessing. But that seems to be a sound strategy.

Wolfowitz. Yeah, where's he been? I seem to remember we had some dirt on him on the Plame threads. I'll see if I can find it.

[hang a left]

97. She can always just plead guilty and avoid a trial.

You can receive up to life in prison for criminal contempt. What is most likely if this ends up being the scenario, she will receive sentencing that would comform to an obstruction of justice conviction.

[hang a left]

98. 2004 Federal Sentencing Guidelines

2004 Federal Sentencing Guidelines

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Chapter 2 - PART J - OFFENSES INVOLVING THE ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE
§2J1.2. Obstruction of Justice
(a) Base Offense Level: 14

(b) Specific Offense Characteristics

(1) If the offense involved causing or threatening to cause physical injury to a person, or property damage, in order to obstruct the administration of justice, increase by 8 levels.

(2) If the offense resulted in substantial interference with the administration of justice, increase by 3 levels.

(3) If the offense (A) involved the destruction, alteration, or fabrication of a substantial number of records, documents, or tangible objects; (B) involved the selection of any essential or especially probative record, document, or tangible object, to destroy or alter; or (C) was otherwise extensive in scope, planning, or preparation, increase by 2 levels.

(c) Cross Reference

(1) If the offense involved obstructing the investigation or prosecution of a criminal offense, apply §2X3.1 (Accessory After the Fact) in respect to that criminal offense, if the resulting offense level is greater than that determined above.



http://www.ussc.gov/2004guid/2j1_2.htm

[robertpaulsen]

76. When I said "they're desperate", I put Roberts in that category too.

I don't think he's investigating the probe on his own accord, I think he's doing it at the request of the misadministration. I don't think Roberts really knows what Fitzgerald knows, other than the redacted names mentioned earlier. I think the fact that none of their cronies in Congress can give them the straight dope on what goods Fitzgerald has on them is driving the misadministration crazy. They know Fitzgerald is wrapping up and I believe he's said all that's left is getting Judy Miller to testify. I don't know if that means that he needs her, and if Plame is one of the unredacted names, then of course Miller is not essential.

So I think that Robert's probe is the equivalent of a "Hail Mary" pass in the final seconds of the 4th quarter. But it also has the potential to throw the rules out the window. It's kind of similar to the buildup to the Iraq War, they want the blessing of legitimacy and just like they wanted the UN to lead the way into Iraq, they would love for Fitzgerald to come forward in October and not issue indictments. But as it looks more and more like that will not happen, they're desperately looking for a loophole. They may not have enough time. In which case, just as Shrub declared the UN irrelevant and invaded Iraq anyway, we'll probably see some "tectonic shift" to declare Fitzgerald's indictments irrelevant.

And I agree, Miller's staying put until October. Sometime between now and then, we'll see a lot of fireworks launched.

Fasten your seatbelt! :popcorn:

[H2O Man]

83. It's very close

to being completed. The Miller bit is a problem in a sense; prosecution for criminal obstruction of justice (rather than the current civil charge) will change that.

Keep three things in mind: {1} perjury; {2} obstruction of justice; and {3} espionage. Think of these as steps leading upward.

[robertpaulsen]

85. What would dimson do if indictments were issued in August?

Might he be compelled to end his vacation early?

Would he stonewall with the response, "We're still waiting for the results of Robert's investigation before we proceed?"

Would he stay holed up in Crawford with a "no comment" for everyone?

Should be fun to watch! :popcorn::beer:

[H2O Man]

89. "Vacation"

The White House is actually pulling out the stops in their effort to distract attention from the Plame scandal in the corporate media. However, they are putting in more hours per week than the grand jury is right now on "scandal control" .... which might be a good reason to get George out of the way.

[robertpaulsen]

91. Hey! Did you hear that Pincus may have talked to a third leaker?

Case of C.I.A. Officer's Leaked Identity Takes New Turn

WASHINGTON, July 26 - In the same week in July 2003 in which Bush administration officials told a syndicated columnist and a Time magazine reporter that a C.I.A. officer had initiated her husband's mission to Niger, an administration official provided a Washington Post reporter with a similar account.

The first two episodes, involving the columnist Robert D. Novak and the reporter Matthew Cooper, have become the subjects of intense scrutiny in recent weeks. But little attention has been paid to what The Post reporter, Walter Pincus, has recently described as a separate exchange on July 12, 2003.

In that exchange, Mr. Pincus says, "an administration official, who was talking to me confidentially about a matter involving alleged Iraqi nuclear activities, veered off the precise matter we were discussing and told me that the White House had not paid attention" to the trip to Niger by Joseph C. Wilson IV "because it was a boondoggle arranged by his wife, an analyst with the agency who was working on weapons of mass destruction."

snip

Mr. Pincus has not identified his source to the public. But a review of Mr. Pincus's own accounts and those of other people with detailed knowledge of the case strongly suggest that his source was neither Karl Rove, Mr. Bush's top political adviser, nor I. Lewis Libby, the chief of staff to Vice President Dick Cheney, and was in fact a third administration official whose identity has not yet been publicly disclosed.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/28/politics/28leak.html?

[Me.]

94. KO Just Said There Were Six

people going around giving out her name. We could have a veritable banquet being served up here.

[H2O Man]

95. Yep.

One already testified; he is the fellow Walter spoke of. He had already been open about this. We've discussed this twice since August of 2004. Dean, like many others, knows who it is.

[Me.]

86. Everything I've Read

says he doesn't have a wife, never been married, is a workaholic who just recently acquired a girlfriend. Do you have contra info, would like to know, as relating to his vulnerability.

[robertpaulsen]

88. No. I hope he is truly "untouchable".

I had forgotten the details of Fitzgerald's personal life, I was just making a joke about Rove always going after people for their sex life, gay or straight, married or single. I hope his girlfriend finds a way to stay anonymous, but I'm sure Rove is working on that.

I'm sure you've already read this, but for anyone else who wants a profile on Fitzgerald, the Washington Post wrote a great article:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A55560-2005Feb1.html

[Me.]

90. Whew!

As things go he has as good a profile as we could ever hope for. Sorry I missed the joke. And does Rove really want to go after anyone's girlfriend especially as word of his girlfriend is starting to "leak" out?

[Me.]

57. Does It Start With A

"C" ?

[robertpaulsen]

61. What?! You've been drinking that American Judas flavored Kool-Aid, right?

:)

[Me.]

65. Only A Teaspoon A Day

Too much truth could be harmful to their health.

[patcox2]

27. Did Gannon see the memo?

That would be very interesting; Gannon claimed to have seen some document, was this it?

[Supersedeas]

70. and if so, who supplied the Memo to Gannon?

[brettdale]

31. kick

kick

[Disturbed]

32. Interesting info

The PNAC Clinton Letter
The PNAC Clinton Letter. ... Elliott Abrams Richard L. Armitage William J. Bennett.
Jeffrey Bergner John Bolton Paula Dobriansky ...
www.spongobongo.com/em/nm/eme9936.htm

[robertpaulsen]

42. More interesting info on one of the signatories of that letter.

Isn't it interesting how one of the signatories of a PNAC letter demanding President Clinton bring "regime change" to Iraq is Zalmay Khalilzad, who on March 10, 2005 replaced John Negroponte as ambassador to Iraq?

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Zalmay_Khalilzad

[Me.]

58. Another Interesting Bit

"Fleischer May Have Lied to Grand Jury, Too"

"A White House telephone log shows that Mr. Fleischer received a call from Mr. Novak on July 7, 2003, but a person familiar with Mr. Fleischer's testimony said he told prosecutors he never returned the call. Mr. Fleischer was aboard Air Force One with Mr. Bush and several other senior administration officials as they traveled across Africa that week. And while a classified State Department memorandum that identified Mr. Wilson's wife, Valerie Wilson, as a C.I.A. operative, was also on board, Mr. Fleischer has told the grand jury that he never saw the document, according to the person familiar with his testimony.
"I'm cooperating with the investigators, and refer all questions to them," Mr. Fleischer said on Tuesday, after turning away a reporter at his house on Monday."

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/27/politics/27leak.html

[robertpaulsen]

92. Hmm...wonder if Fleischer volunteered the info to Pincus?

Mr. Pincus has not identified his source to the public. But a review of Mr. Pincus's own accounts and those of other people with detailed knowledge of the case strongly suggest that his source was neither Karl Rove, Mr. Bush's top political adviser, nor I. Lewis Libby, the chief of staff to Vice President Dick Cheney, and was in fact a third administration official whose identity has not yet been publicly disclosed.

more...

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/28/politics/28leak.html?

[jazzjunkysue]

59. That's it entirely: The PNAC cabal: Wolfie, Rice, Bolton, it explains

everything. When you know about PNAC, everything that happened to CLinton and in the Bush crime family makes sense. That's why they lie: They have to to keep their real agenda under wraps. The local american politics really doesn't ineterest any of them. They're not working for us. They never were. That's why you can't shame them into doing their jobs. They never intended to do their jobs. They serve their own world power consortium: PNAC.

[Jackpine Radical]

33. C'mon, somebody. RECOMMEND THIS THREAD.

There's some dynamite shit here.

Thanks for the continuing education on this point, Beet & H2O Man.

[Disturbed]

34. This thread is nominated.

We should keep hammering on this issue and avoid most posts that are minor BS.

[applegrove]

35. In May Wilson was leaking on the Niger Issue. In June the State Department

did a workup on the Yellowcake issue. Three weeks later it gets requested by Armitage. Then the campaign starts to undo Plame & Wilson.

We don't yet know enough. We need first person accounts and that will take the publication of the investigation.

[Beetwasher]

39. And There Is Definitely A LOT of Disinfo Involved

It does seem that Bushco. is trying to frame Armitage/Powell/Ford...

[applegrove]

40. Don't know about that. We will just have to wait.

[deacon]

37. kick and nominated n/t

[Baracas]

41. Smells like Treason

http://www.ThouShaltNotBearFalseWitness.com

[robertpaulsen]

45. Welcome to DU, Baracas!

I think you picked a great thread to make your first post.

[jhain]

43. been waiting for more on this angle all day

yes, very interesting. Even though I would rather say it is all so very 'disgusting'.

[KittyWampus]

49. I know, reading this thread has been profoundly disturbing.

[jazzjunkysue]

60. try this website

www.newamericancentury.org

[Gloria]

64. kick

[Beetwasher]

66. .

.

[Scout1071]

82. If I've said it once, I've said it a million times.

I believe that Colin Powell is indeed one of, if not THE whistleblowers in this whole affair. If that is the case, then he will earn back some of the respect that I had for him at one time.

[oasis]

87. kick

[lonestarnot]

93. kick!

[oasis]

96. kick

[lonestarnot]

100. kick

and there's some more new info from PDA:


Thanks in part to an overwhelming show of public outrage over the implications of the Downing Street Minutes, the light of inquiry is finally shining into the darkest corners of this administration's shady dealings. Suddenly, things are moving very quickly.

On July 17, Congresswoman Barbara Lee (D-CA) - along with 34 co-sponsors - introduced a Resolution of Inquiry in the House of Representatives. If it passes, the White House and the State Department will be required to "transmit all information relating to communication with officials of the United Kingdom between January 1, 2002, and October 16, 2002, relating to the policy of the United States with respect to Iraq."

This potentially paradigm-shifting resolution must be voted on in committee within fourteen legislative days of its introduction. The resolution will almost certainly be voted on in committee between September 6 and 16, because if it is not, Lee can demand a vote of the full House. If left standing, however, the resolution must be taken up again by September 16.

Here's where your help is needed: the more Congress Members in the full House who co-sponsor the resolution, the more likely it is to be approved by members of the committee. Now is the time to bring full pressure to bear on those representatives who remain uncommitted and to do all we can to get as many members as possible to sponsor this resolution.

When writing your representatives, tell them that information in the Downing Street Minutes strongly suggests that President Bush intentionally deceived Congress about the reasons for going to war. Tell them that if such is not the case, the administration should be eager to release the information contained in the additional official documents and see the President vindicated. Either way, Congress and the American people deserve to know the truth. Full disclosure is essential. No one is above the law. We will not stand for secrecy in our White House.

We have only a few days in which to urge our representatives to keep this pivotal resolution alive. Demand that committee members not only vote for it, but vow to discuss it at length and engage in substantive debate when the committee meets, forcing opposing members to go on record with their reasons for voting it down.

The future of our country hangs in the balance. And, as always, PDA is here. Progressive representatives are working alongside the citizenry, pushing for truth and justice. Your participation and support are making this all possible. Thank you for all you're doing.


TAKE ACTION HERE: http://capwiz.com/pdamerica/issues/bills/?bill=7877436