"Southern"--my God, help us, and fry the repub hatemongers

[DemocracyInaction]

Do you have a minute? I’ve waited several weeks wondering if I should post this. I have to because I now know what a lot of you are living with, and I feel like a virgin who walked into a whore house.

My husband and I are Civil War buffs. This year we decided to go to the Gettysburg reenactment which was held on the actual days of the battle - July 1,2 & 3. There were 3,000-plus reenactors who camp out in full period gear in “rebel” and “union” camps.

We wandered the camps. In the Confederate camp I heard things I hadn’t heard in 35 years. The word “nigger” was used often. I was told how the blacks were idiots because the southern plantation owner gave them a positively wonderful life compared to their animal life in the African jungles. I was lectured on how we have to do something about all these people of different skins now in our country because we whites are the terrible oppressed minority now--------as my hubby was dragging me away before I started “The Civil War-- the Sequel”!!!

I read the local newspaper who had an “embedded” reporter with the Confederates writing a diary about the camps. He told about how they told him that “down their way” they still fly the rebel flag and that "some folks don’t like that" but that they don’t understand. They said that flag means “that we cover each other’s back”--I wanted to scream “from what?? Do they think "the Northerners" were going to come and take their pathetic home??? They bitched about the Yankee camp and how they didn’t take this war seriously, etc.------ummmm, it’s a reenactment, for Christ's sake...it isn’t THE WAR. Perhaps that explains why they had an incident a few years back (as reported in the same paper) where some of the reenactors were “accidently shot”.....................get me out of here...............

There were some wonderful “living history” reeanactors who dressed and portrayed various generals of the time and were a wonderful fountain of info. So I tracked down one of my favorite “generals” (the actual historical person) on line and found that the fabulous reenactor did contribute to a Civil War on-line chat room. I clicked on to one of his “links” and it took me straight to some ultra right wing lunatic sight!!! That was enough for me.

I realize that I walked into sort of NASCAR land. But I post this because I now know that these red state, brain washed, living in waaay in the past, very weird people are still fighting the Civil War AND want to punish the damn Yankees for being defeated and for reconstruction. BUT here‘s what totally blows my goddamn mind: We ain’t gonna change the outcome of 150 years ago but they goddamn better get their heads out of their Rush Limbaugh asses and start dealing with the bastards who are going to take away their means of maintaining and living any kind of middle class life. Folks...how the hell do we ever educate this mass of rot into letting go of the Civil War and realizing that the worst enemies they have ever seen are manipulating them into their own destruction??? We cannot sell them our message until we address and destroy this 150-year old mentality. Oh, and by the way, the actual battlefield was one of the most haunting experiences of my life---and so were some very strange pictures that showed up on my digital camera from the evening of Pickett’s Charge when we walked the battlefield at dusk. I swear I felt their souls. Too bad we can't learn their lesson.........don't let the rich and lying politicians lead you into destroying YOURSELVES!!!

[ThoughtCriminal]

1. The historical revisionism of neo-Confederates is astounding

especially when it comes to what they call "The War of Northern Aggression".

[Clark2008]

2. That was what real Confederates called it.

These jerks should be in Iraq fighting real wars insteading of pretending to fight one that's 200 years old.

BTW, I'm from the South and I don't much think about the Confederate flag, one way or the other. I don't use the "N" word. I don't hate Yankees (my boyfriend's from Boston) and I would hate it if you thought this was a reflection of all Southerners, because it's not. These people are odd.

Oh - and to the OP. My father is a Civil War historian. It saddens me that the re-enactments have become such a hotbed of racism and stupidity.

[DemocracyInaction]

6. Clark--I know what you're saying

My son lives in the south. I've met, unfortunately, southerners just like these fools in Atlanta and I've met really wonderful, southern hospitality great good folks. Hubby and I were shocked that it was like this. We expected that a bunch of real history buffs just liked to get together and share all the wonderful pieces of info of the era. It's fascinating. I've been hooked for years. I'm more into a lot of Confederate generals than Union because we basically had the biggest bunch of fuck ups this side of Bush during that war and are likely we didn't lose like in the first five minutes. They have so much to share. I wish they hadn't gotten all caught up in that winger crap. This isn't 1863---but the repubs are literally trying to take their lives back to that era.

[FreedomAngel82]

52. This probably comes from the same type of people

who believe that the founding fathers were Christians and this country was founded upon Christian beliefs.

[kiki]

9. No room for Rummy in the prison shuttle? n/t

[Clark2008]

16. LOL - not on the first mission.

:)

[kiki]

19. Just tape his ass to the heat shield...

If he makes it back to Earth, he's a free man.

[ThoughtCriminal]

11. When growing up in Alabama

I always heard it refered to as "The War Between the States" and if you refered "The Civil War", you would be politely "Corrected".

[Clark2008]

17. Yeah - the War Between the States is what its called more now

than anything else down here - which is accurate, actually.

The War of Northern Aggression was what Confederates, in "polite" conversation, called it back during the actual war, and for some years after.

[TankLV]

47. The war of northern aggresssion - which the south started. Riiiight!

Okaaaaaaay!

[FreedomAngel82]

55. Funny isn't it?

So what are they going to call both world wars? :eyes:

[DemocracyInaction]

3. ThoughtCriminal--did I mention Newt Gingrich was there??

Yep, selling his "revisionist history books" (the books about the South winning) and they were lined up around the block to buy them and have him sign them at like $30 bucks a book!! Jesus..........they obviously preferred a different ending. And, their "cheering" section was like scary. It was like they thought there would be a different outcome and they would see really, really dead Union "forces" on the ground. I want to emphasize that for the Union reenactors it was just a reenactment to preserve history but for these people it was like Rush Limbaugh was going to take the place of Pickett and kill all those Yankee bastards...........I needed lots of drinks in the hotel room after all that.......

[yankeedem]

5. Maybe someone should ask them

are you with us or against us- you can't be loyal to the CSA and the USA at the same time.

[ThoughtCriminal]

14. I have not read Gingrich's book

After "1946" it seemed like a waste of time. I have found Harry Turtledove's alternate history novels interesting though.

There is a difference between "Alternate History" (speculating what would it be like if the outcome was different) and "Revisionist History" (altering history to fit propaganda).

[Clark2008]

27. Oh, dear Lord.

I hate fighting this assinine war, daily. These idiots are just as bad as the idiots from up North who think we're all a bunch of rednecks down here (and, did I mention, my beloved is from Boston? LOL!).

I'm glad the South lost, in many ways, but, I hate that people think Southerners are stupid, though, but I've actually moved on since 1863. :eyes:

However, that said, I DO realize that this is something the Republicans have us beat on.

Let me be quite honest: it's not the racism the Republicans have won the South on - it's that they stand up against the stereotypes. Well, not really, but it's perceived that way down here. Southern white men, in particular, and Southerners, in general, have been the butt of too many jokes for too long.

The Republicans seized on this and have "sheilded" us Southerners from this - have taken up the gauntlet, if you will, to say that it's wrong to stereotype Southerners just as its wrong to stereotype black people or women. It's the Republicans won "PC" for the ages.

Now, if we can find a way to take this back - to stop all the hate the South threads that were so popular a month back - and actually find a way to capitalize on workers rights, the military, Just wars and such, I think we'd be on the road back to turning the South blue again.

Just a thought.

[FreedomAngel82]

58. Yep

You got it Clark2008. And the people down here think that democrats are mostly in the north and are elitiest. I remember on this board I used to go on someone kept saying how rich Kerry was and blah blah blah and I would point out that Bush was born rich too (and from the north) and of course they'd just go back to Kerry and Teresa. :eyes:

[Jacobin]

4. So, do you think the war was fought to free the slaves?

Just askin'

[DemocracyInaction]

7. Jacobin--said I was a Civil war Buff and the answer is:

Of course NOT. There was all sorts of political crap going on. Lincoln later on did his "proclamation" because he knew it cooked the southern goose with the Europeans. And just like all the morons of today, a lot of people died 'cause they were just too stupid to understand "the why". BUT...obviously the clowns I ran into thought that it was all about "niggers" as they called them. And they obviously had their opinions of why those blacks were so dumb and the north was so dumb because the south really, really saved them from their terrible lives in Africa. The issue isn't what that war was about, honey. It's about what these fools think the repub war on half this nation right here and right now is about. Talk about dumb..........

[Jacobin]

31. I know what you are saying

I unfortunately have to deal with a lot of people similar to those you are describing.

But please see other responses to my question to understand that ignorance is not just among people who are hateful. Its the hatefulness, not the ignorance that is the problem

[ThoughtCriminal]

15. Depends on which side

The main (but not only) reason south seceded because they were convinced that the northern states were going to abolish slavery and wanted new slaveholding territories.

The main (but not only) reason the North fought to was maintain the Union.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

18. Do you think it was not?

It was about slavery but thinly disguised as "states rights" which really translated as property rights. All one has to do is read some of the history/memoirs/diaries of ante-bellum southern politicians.

The southern plantation owners needed slaves to maintain their economic aristocracy. The idea that slavery was "fading away anyway" has no historical basis. More slaves were being bought and sold, at higher prices, than ever before. The aristocracy used blatant racism and fear to motivate the poor whites to fight the war. "If the slaves are freed they will take your jobs and your women."

I don't know your views on the causes of the civil war but, I would suggest that anyone wondering about them, try doing some period reading from before the war.

"Secret and Sacred: The diaries of James Henry Hammond a southern slaveholder" Hammond was a senator from South Carolina and later became governor. His diary reveals the southern aristocracies determination to preserve slavery at any cost.

"The Road to Disunion" Willam H. Freehling A great, and very readable overview of what led to the Civil War.

"Mary Chesnut's Civil War Diaries" - Mary Chesnut was married to a bigwig in the Confederate government. Her diaries, somewhat inadvertantly, reveal the upper classes terror of freeing the slaves.
Though she sometimes uses the PC version of "States Rights", the truth shines through. And, it's a great and revealing view of the upper crust in the south. She was a very intelligent and aware woman who was simultaneously frustrated at "women's role" in those years.

And, many more, from the "heroic southerner", to the banal meanderings of plantation adolescents.

[Jacobin]

30. Oh, and we invaded Iraq to free them from Saddam?

You believe that too?

Then was did the first emancipation proclamation only free slaves in the states that rebelled and not until 1863 which was two years after the war started.

Where's Karl Rove when ya need him to spin

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

39. And, you believe the Civil War wasn't over slavery?

Despite the overwhelming evidence of history that it was?

The Emancipation Proclamation freeing only slaves from the states still in rebellion, was a way (a dishonorable way) to keep the border states in the union. Lincoln, like many in the North, were only half-assed abolitionists and had to be forced by circumstances and the abolitionists like Garrison and Douglass to finally free the slaves.

But, that isn't the question. The south rebelled against their country to preserve slavery. There was no other reason to start the war at Fort Sumpter. They weren't threatened by the North in any way other than economically - which, for the south, meant the abolition of slavery. All you have to do is read the writings, speeches, and proclamations from the south before the war. They sought to preserve "states rights". What "rights" were they talking about? Just look at what they were saying. Property rights. What property rights? The right to own land, furniture, produce, or shoes, weren't threatened. So, what then? Only the "right" to own, sell, give, transport, or use as labor, human beings.

Why were they intent on making new states slave states? Why did they threaten nullification long before the Civil War? Again, slavery.

If you can find another explanation, let's hear it.

[charmsicle]

50. The Proclamation was a total mind-fuck PR move

For one thing, there was no way to enforce it, 'cause, uh, Lincoln didn't have much jusrisdiction in the south. Most slaves didn't even hear about it until after the war. And don't even get me started on the whole Reconstruction period. NIGHT. MARE.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

56. The only "nightmare" about reconstruction was that it ended too early.

It ended before it was effective due to pressure from the former slave states and "moderate" politicians who sold it out. After it was ended, and the troops were prematurely withdrawn, most of the freed slaves were reduced to situation much like the one before the war.

[me b zola]

32. In that slavery was deemed necessary to their economic system---yes

I view it along the lines of competing economic systems:

agrarian vs industrialization


And both system desired slaves as their workforce.

[Jacobin]

33. Yep.

Child labor was all the rage in the north back then

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

46. There is no comparison between chattel slavery and "wage" slavery.

While the capitalists certainly had (and still have) and abused their power, often brutally, there is no comparison to chattel slavery.

The capitalists in the north, could fire, lockout, hire goons and strikebreakers, lean on or bribe politicians, those tactics were, at least, nominally illegal.

Under chattel slavery in the south, owners could LEGALLY starve, maim, torture, brand, sell, trade, make gifts of, pass on to their heirs, human beings. They could LEGALLY remove children from their parents and sell them. In most of the slave states it was ILLEGAL for slaves to marry. It was ILLEGAL to teach slaves to read. The status of slavery was LEGALLY through the mother. Which meant that, no matter who the father might be, including the owner of the mother, any offspring were deemed slaves. And, it was all based on race.

As bad as the workers in the industrialized north had it, none of the above that applied to slaves (except marriage) were applicable to them legally.

The idea that the "wage slaves" of the north had it worse than the happy, singing, "darky" slaves who loved "massa", was the purest bullshit spread by the southern slaveowners.

[me b zola]

54. Ya know

I almost went back to edit the post to prevent someone from believing that I was wholly equating the two.

The industrialized slavery is metaphoric.

It in no way is meant to detract from the horror of the slave industry, those who profited from it, and those who suffered at it's *metaphoric* hands.


Absolute poverty & relative poverty are worlds apart, but yet they are still both poverty.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

59. Thank you for the clarification. I agree completely.

The modern day slavery being perpetrated by the corporations in the 3rd world is much closer to the ante-bellum chattel slavery practiced in the south, but it still pales in comparison.

What I find appalling is that there is anyone with a shred of humanity that is willing to justify either.

[misanthrope]

20. I don't know...

...you tell me.

[Lindacooks]

23. Sure looks like slavery was the big reason.

[Jacobin]

29. lol

I love this.

Okay. The war started in 1861. Why do you think Lincoln only freed the slaves in the states that rebelled and not until 1863 when the war was going badly for the north.

I'm just askin

[Lindacooks]

36. LOL!!!

Read the documents. That's proof that slavery was the cause of the Civil War.

Sheesh, why the )(*&)) can't you people accept that the Confederates were:

A. Wrong.

and

B. Lost.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

40. The war didn't just "start". It was initiated by the south.

And, again why? Why would the southern slave states start a rebellion against their own country if it wasn't about slavery?

I'm just askin.

[CrispyQ]

8. I have an out there idea.

They thrive on conflict & are 'us vs. them' type mentality. So, we give them the honest-to-goodness 'us vs. them' conflict: real persons vs. artificial persons (& their human representatives, BODs, officers, shareholders & corrupted public officials). I'm talking about corporations, of course, & their personhood status that doesn't depend on clean air, clean water, jobs, healthcare, education, community.

It is our common enemy but they don't see it yet.

[Unforgiven]

10. Not Just Yet

we have'nt suffered enuf!

[ultraist]

12. What do you expect at a Civil War re-enactment?

The attendees are some of the worst of the worst rednecks. But don't lump all Southerners in with those ignorant bigots.

Racists are everywhere in the US! We have gotten more looks and hostile reactions, being a white family with a black son, in PA, than any where we've traveled to. People looked at him as though they'd never seen a black person before and nearly fell out when they learned he was WITH US!

We don't have those problems in NC and SC where our black population is 22% and 30% respectively. SC has the HIGHEST INTERRACIAL MARRIAGE rate than any other state in the country. They are not SHOCKED by interracial families, as they were in PA.

[really annoyed]

37. Racism exists everywhere

I don't even bother with the "North/South" divide anymore.

Racism in the North doesn't discredit racism in the South. And vice versa!

It's no surprise that the South has higher interracial marriage rates - the majority of African-Americans live in the South. I believe Mississippi has the highest rate.

[TankLV]

48. Wrong wrong wrong. That honor goes to Hawai'i.

THE most racially diverse and marriage-integrated location ON THE PLANET!

[Kerrytravelers]

13. I went to one... once ... in the San Francisco bay area.

I found the rock all the racists are hiding under.

[Pepperbelly]

21. I never understood that shit ...

I lived for many years in Little Rock's historical district, landmarks in all directions. I recall one early Saturday morning when my dogs went absolutely apeshit. I saw nothing but a little later, I began to hear a drum and I thought I'd had too good a time the night before and was hallucinating or something.

But then I saw them.

I column of threes, rebel uniforms, their "officer" on horseback and pulling a little fuck cannon behind a mule. I watched them by, shrugged, and went back inside. It was time for MST3K.

[donheld]

22. You know what George Carlin says about these reenactments?

He say's they should use live ammunition. Maybe he's not that far off.

[ngant17]

24. Carlin is a genius in his own right

Great quote, interesting thought coming from a great comedian.

There must be some need for a segment of the US population to get involved in these historical re-enactments. Seems harmless to me, it's a form of cultural appreciation, it never seems to offend me, and you know there are so many modern 'Confederates' down in the South, even in Florida where I live. In one place, they have a Confederate soldier buried in the graveyard of my folks, and for that reason, the state has made it into some kind of minor heritage location for the locals. Makes the locals happy. That's helps them to keep voting the same way each year.

Me, well, it would be neat if the labor movement picked up on this, do something like that, I mean, a re-enactment of, say, the first May Day in Chicago, or to glorify some other important historical event in the class wars which were part and parcel of the US labor movement. I wish more people would read Howard Zinn's "People's History of the US" to appreciate our cultural history.

Maybe the Civil War re-enactments are important to some, but IMHO that whole historical era shouldn't just be marginalized this way, there are bigger philosophical issues that should be emphasized beyond the military 'order of battle' and the costume designs.

[Coventina]

25. LOL! n/t

[RattRigg]

26. you dont suppose?

you dont think this was a historcal reenactment?

[Kathy in Cambridge]

28. Did you read the post correctly?

I doubt it was much of a stretch for them to get into character.

[Kalish]

34. They lost

they can't own slaves anymore.

They need to get over it.

[DURHAM D]

35. I am a non-southern living in the south for the past 20 years and

whenever I get tired of the constant chat about the civil war among my friends, and because they are always very defensive, I just remind myself that I am living among the only Americans to lose a war.

Please don't ask me about Vietnam or Korea, that was more like a draw but the South actually lost. Those of us from elsewhere have not had the experience.

By the way, several of the friends I refer to are descendants of original planting families and natural historians.

[Alcibiades]

49. Traitors

As a descendant of many Confederate veterans myself, I find it is always amusing to point out that the Confederates were REBELS and TRAITORS, that the Confederate Battle Flag is A FLAG OF TREASON, utterly inconsistent with citizenship in the United States of America.

The war is ovah! Been ovah fo a long, long time, too. It's always fun, in hindsight, to point out the futility and Quixotic nature of the whole enterprise, as in "What the heck were they thinking?" Which I suppose is part of the point. Our ancestors fought and died for the privileges of the few richest slaveholders, though they did not themselves, by and large, own slaves in any great numbers. The same attitude that kept Southerners fighting and dying in 1865 when the cause was lost is the same reason many of them vote Republican.

Of course, real Southerners have never voted Republican. Sherman kept us from voting Republican until the New Deal, then we went along with FDR, and when LBJ came along we went with that, too. I just wish to God that all those George Wallace, Strom Thurmond, Jesse Helms types would just die off already.

[charmsicle]

53. Yeah, but THEY didn't lose the war

Their great-freakin' grandparents did. They need to get over it. I mean, they're still talking about the Civil War? Seriously? Do they talk about segregation, too?

[DURHAM D]

61. My friends do talk about segregation - a couple of them grew up

in Charlotte. It was a big deal there.

They refer repeatedly to the Yankees living in their front yards for 18 years during reconstruction. That period seems more difficult for them then the actual war. I guess the occupation was much more personal than the war - and no doubt has implications of class.

You mentioned that their great-freaking grandparents lost that war. The odd thing is that they can reel off the birthdates, marriages, childrens births and death dates of generations and generations of their family members. I can't even remember the birth years of my own grandparents, much less 3 -5 generations before that.

After moving to the South I have listened to more conversations about "state's rights" every month than in my entire prior life. Now that is a subject that really, really bores me.

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Alcibiades]

41. "bigoted accent?"

How can an accent be bigoted?

Having said that, there are plenty of things you can infer from a southern accent, depending upon the type. There's your genteel coastal drawl, for example, found from Charleston to Savannah, that lets you know that the bearer of said accent hasn't done a lick of work in his lifetime, and his ancestors hadn't done any either--too hot, after all, one might soil one's white linen suit.

Then there's your generic Georgia-Carolina-Alabama peckerwood that sounds like you've got a mouthful of chaw, even when you ain't got no chaw in your mouth atall. Now, you might assume the bearer of such an accent is a racist, but 50% of the time you will be wrong, 45% of the time you'll be right in that they are a sort of a lazy racist, in that they really hate the negro race but it's too hot to cut holes in the sheets and do anything about it, and 5% of the time you are actually talking to the local Grand Whizbang Poohbah of the local Klaven.

So, in conclusion, it's not simply correct to assume that the bearer of a southern accent is a bigot. Some of us are merely ignorant.

Pardon me, while I roll back on top of my sister.

[ruggerson]

42. I think it's the fundie preachers

They all have the same drawl. I want to shove my fist down their throat so I don't have to listen to their Southern spew of non stop hatred.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

43. LOL..and there are more hate groups in California and New York

than in the 5 major 'confederate' states combined

(signed,

a yankee who knows better)

[Lex]

45. Thanks NSMA.

There are a lot of us southern liberals working hard and fighting the good fight down here.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

44. I know what you mean about feeling the death

I completely felt the same way at Jonesboro

[FreedomAngel82]

51. It is sad

I love living in the south and everything but sometimes it's so sad in a pathetic way. The blacks liked being slaves? Uh yeah freakin right!! Why don't they go down the road and ask a black if they liked being slaved! I remember at some rightwing convention or whatever (some meeting) there was this black guy on there talking and he was saying all this crap too!! I couldn't believe it! A black guy saying how blacks in the civil war days LIKED BEING SLAVES!!!! WTF?!

[kineneb]

57. Interesting family note,

My great-great grandfather, who arrived in the US around 1851 from Germany, fought for the Union and was wounded in the Battle of Shiloh. I loved reading "Killer Angels"; it gave me a better feeling for the reasoning behind the Civil War. Note that many of the Union regiments were made up of immigrants, many of whom were Irish or German. They fought for a united country that included all people, not just white English-speakers. My family didn't stop speaking German at home until WWI.

[Tesha]

60. Honestly, does this surprise anyone?

> We wandered the camps. In the Confederate camp I heard things
> I hadn’t heard in 35 years. The word “nigger” was used often. I
> was told how the blacks were idiots because the southern plantation
> owner gave them a positively wonderful life compared to their animal
> life in the African jungles. I was lectured on how we have to do
> something about all these people of different skins now in our
> country because we whites are the terrible oppressed minority
> now--------as my hubby was dragging me away before I started
> “The Civil War-- the Sequel”!!!

Honestly, does this surprise anyone? Did it really surprise you?

Tesha