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NAO Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 08:36 PM
Original message
In 1879 Ingersoll predicted that w/o liberals, churches would destroy US
The great orator Robert G. Ingersoll made this statement in 1879, in his famous lecture, "Some Mistakes of Moses":

"It probably will not be long until the churches will divide as sharply upon political, as upon theological questions; and when that day comes, if there are not liberals enough to hold the
balance of power
, this Government will be destroyed. The liberty of man is not safe in the hands of any church. Wherever the Bible and sword are in partnership, man is a slave."


Ingersoll's "Some Mistakes of Moses"
http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/robert_ingersoll/some_mistakes_of_moses.html
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Rick Myers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 08:38 PM
Response to Original message
1. Brilliant!!!
Edited on Wed Jul-27-05 08:38 PM by Rick Myers
Thank you! :kick:

on edit: recommended!!!
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Celebration Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 08:49 PM
Response to Reply #1
7. Sigh
I recommended too. It just seemed like a worthwhile idea. I will try to wade through the whole thing tomorrow. I have a feeling a new coalition needs to be formed and this could possibly be the intellectual precedent. Bushco is so anti-science!! We need the pro science types plus the anti war types plus the libertarian types all to comingle into a great.... OH MY GOSH GET RID OF THESE WHACKOS and we will sort the rest out later.......oh and the union types can tag along too!!
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NAO Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 08:57 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. Here's a quote on science. theology and schools from same lecture
The real oppressor, enslaver and corrupter of the people is
the Bible. That book is the chain that binds, the dungeon that
holds the clergy. That book spreads the pall of superstition over
the colleges and schools. That book puts out the eyes of science,
and makes honest investigation a crime. That book unmans the
politician and degrades the people. That book fills the world with
bigotry, hypocrisy and fear. It plays the same part in our country
that has been played by "sacred records" in all the nations of the
world...

It is also my desire to free the schools. When a professor in
a college finds a fact, he should make it known, even if it is
inconsistent with something Moses said. Public opinion must not
compel the professor to hide a fact, and, "like the base Indian,
throw the pearl away." With the single exception of Cornell, there
is not a college in the United States where truth has ever been a
welcome guest. The moment one of the teachers denies the
inspiration of the Bible, he is discharged. If he discovers a fact
inconsistent with that book, so much the worse for the fact, and
especially for the discoverer of the fact. He must not corrupt the
minds of his pupils with demonstrations. He must beware of every
truth that cannot, in some way be made to harmonize with the
superstitions of the Jews. Science has nothing in common with
religion. Facts and miracles never did, and never will agree. They
are not in the least related. They are deadly foes. What has
religion to do with facts? Nothing. Can there be Methodist
mathematics, Catholic astronomy, Presbyterian geology, Baptist
biology, or Episcopal botany? Why, then, should a sectarian college
exist? Only that which somebody knows should be taught in our
schools. We should not collect taxes to pay people for guessing.
The common school is the bread of life for the people, and it
should not be touched by the withering hand of superstition.

Our country will never be filled with great institutions of
learning until there is an absolute divorce between Church and
School. As long as the mutilated records of a barbarous people are
placed by priest and professor above the reason of mankind, we
shall reap but little benefit from church or school.
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TwentyFive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 09:05 PM
Response to Reply #7
14. Hear hear! Solidarity Now! Let's get rid of the Theocrats now!
To all Ayn Rander, Socialists, Libertarians, Progressives, old line Conservatives, Workers Party, Greens, Communists, Wall St Capitalists, DLCers (did I forget anybody?)...lets put aside the old battles until later.

Now is the time to take back America from the Mullahs. Otherwise, it will be too late!
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tibbir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 08:39 PM
Response to Original message
2. Wow, he really had it down.
He predicted exactly what we're going through now with the DLC folks trying their damndest to shed the adjective "liberal."
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NAO Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. Ingersoll was an adamant Republican but considered himself a liberal
And he would have a field day with today's religious zealots.

He was the biggest thorn in the side of orthodox Christianity in history. His anti-religious lectures drew huge crowds, and the church was never weaker; there were never more freethinkers than during the period of his lectures (1870-1899).

His lectures are fun to read, full of wit, and extremely devastating to the crumbling creeds of organized religion.

Robert G. Ingersoll
http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/robert_ingersoll/index.shtml
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 09:00 PM
Response to Reply #5
11. In his day, the Repubicans WERE liberal on many points, such as
civil rights and the interests of small farmers and small business owners.
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Celebration Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 08:40 PM
Response to Original message
3. thanks
This looks fantastic. I am hoping I can wade through it. VERY LONG. Short attention span here. I will try to extend it.
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NAO Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 08:51 PM
Response to Reply #3
8. Start reading and it will fly by; very witty, very funny, very astute
"Some Mistakes of Moses" is a devastating critique of "Creationism" and the "Inspiration" of the first five books of the Bible.

Here is the passage that preceeds the above quote:

Our Government should be entirely and purely secular. The religious views of a candidate should be kept entirely out of sight. He should not be compelled to give his opinion as to the inspiration of the Bible, the propriety of infant baptism, or the immaculate conception. All these things are private and personal. He should be allowed to settle such things for himself and should he decide contrary to the law and will of God, let him settle the matter with God. The people ought to be wise enough to select as their officers men who know something of political affairs, who comprehend the present greatness, and clearly perceive the futuregrandeur of our country. If we were in a storm at sea, with deckwave-washed and masts strained and bent with storm, and it was necessary to reef the top sail, we certainly would not ask the brave sailor who volunteered to go aloft, what his opinion was on the five points of Calvinism. Our Government has nothing to do with religion. It is neither Christian nor pagan; it is secular. But as long as the people persist in voting for or against men on account of their religious views, just so long will hypocrisy hold place and power. Just so long will the candidates crawl in the dust -- hide their opinions, flatter those with whom they differ, pretend to agree with those whom they despise; and just so long will honest men be trampled under foot. Churches are becoming political organizations. Nearly every Catholic is a Democrat; nearly every Methodist in the North is a Republican.

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tblue37 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 09:58 PM
Response to Reply #8
16. The decent Republican presidential candidate
Edited on Wed Jul-27-05 10:00 PM by tblue37
played by Alan Alda on The West Wing (who, by the way, I predict will win and then show the country what the real-life Republicans should be like), made a very similar speech about how when voters demand that a candidate parade his religion they are just asking to be lied to.
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Viva_La_Revolution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 10:34 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. Gina Davis wins.....
According to the commercial I saw last night. :P
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DanCa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 08:40 PM
Response to Original message
4.  In other words
Render onto ceaser what is ceaser, render onto the church what is the church who said that :D ?
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Nevernose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 09:01 PM
Response to Reply #4
12. Probably a communist, or a hippy
Or some other evil liberal type who has no idea of how the real world operates or understands the inerrant word of God as recorded in the one true Holy Bible.

:)
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 08:47 PM
Response to Original message
6. Truth
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HysteryDiagnosis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 08:53 PM
Response to Original message
9. My my my.... people were cogent even way back when.... I don't
suppose fratboy would agree with the following, that is "if" you could get him to read it.

http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/robert_ingersoll/some_mistakes_of_moses.html
>>If all will admit that all have an equal right to think, then
the question is forever solved; but as long as organized and
powerful churches, pretending to hold the keys of heaven and hell,
denounce every person as an outcast and criminal who thinks for
himself and denies their authority, the world will be filled with
hatred and suffering. To hate man and worship God seems to be the
sum of all the creeds.

That which has happened in most countries has happened in
ours. When a religion is founded, the educated, the powerful --
that is to say, the priests and nobles, tell the ignorant and
superstitious -- that is to say, the people, that the religion of
their country was given to their fathers by God himself; that it is
the only true religion; that all others were conceived in falsehood
and brought forth in fraud, and that all who believe in the true
religion will be happy forever, while all others will burn in hell.


For the purpose of governing the people, that is to say, for the
purpose of being supported by the people, the priests and nobles
declare this religion to be sacred, and that whoever adds to, or
takes away from it, will be burned here by man, and hereafter by
God. The result of this is, that the priests and nobles will not
allow the people to change; and when, after a time, the priests,
having intellectually advanced, wish to take a step in the
direction of progress, the people will not allow them to change. At
first, the rabble are enslaved by the priests, and afterwards the
rabble become the masters.<<
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progressoid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 09:04 PM
Response to Original message
13. I wish I could recommend this one twice!
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NAO Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 09:26 PM
Response to Original message
15. Recommend "Some Mistakes of Moses" as antidote to Kansas "Kreationism"
The lecture goes through the Genesis account of creation in great detail and rips it up with great wit and humor.

I don't think an honest person could read "Some Mistakes" and still believe in the infallibility of the Bible or the Creation Story. There are too many absurdities. "Mistakes" gives the Pentateuch a reality check, and finds it wanting.
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moof Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 10:48 PM
Response to Original message
18. "To hate man and worship God" seems a bit too narrow .....
" to worship a god and hate EVERTHING else "

appears to be a closer match to reality.
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NMMNG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-28-05 04:34 AM
Response to Original message
19. Excellent
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NAO Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-28-05 11:31 AM
Response to Original message
20. Works of Robert G. Ingersoll, Online (link. excerpts)

Works of Robert G. Ingersoll (with additional biographical material)
http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/robert_ingersoll/index.shtml



a few of my favorites:

Heretics And Hericies (1874)
http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/robert_ingersoll/heretics_and_hericies.html

According to the theologians, God, the Father of us all, wrote a letter to his children. The children have always differed somewhat as to the meaning of this letter. In consequence of these honest differences, these brothers began to cut out each other's hearts. In every land, where this letter from God has been read, the children to whom and for whom it was written have been filled with hatred and malice. They have imprisoned and murdered each other, and the wives and children of each other. In the name of God every possible crime has been committed, every conceivable outrage has been perpetrated. Brave men, tender and loving women, beautiful girls, and prattling babes have been exterminated in the name of Jesus Christ. For more than fifty generations the church has carried the black flag. Her vengeance has been measured only by her power. During all these years of infamy no heretic has ever been forgiven. With the heart of a fiend she has hated; with the clutch of avarice she has grasped; with the jaws of a dragon she has devoured; pitiless as famine, merciless as fire, with the conscience of a serpent: such is the history of the Church of God.

I do not say, and I do not believe, that Christians are as bad as their creeds. In spite of church and dogma, there have been millions and millions of men and women true to the loftiest and most generous promptings of the human heart. They have been true to their convictions, and, with a self-denial and fortitude excelled by none, have labored and suffered for the salvation of men. Imbued with the spirit of self-sacrifice, believing that by personal effort they could rescue at least a few souls from the infinite shadow of hell, they have cheerfully endured every hardship and scorned every danger. And yet, notwithstanding all this, they believed that honest error was a crime. They knew that the Bible so declared, and they believed that all unbelievers would be eternally lost. They believed that religion was of God, and all heresy of the devil. They killed heretics in defence of their own souls and the souls of their children. They killed them because, according to their idea, they were the enemies of God, and because the Bible teaches that the blood of the unbeliever is a most acceptable sacrifice to heaven.

Men and women have been burned for thinking there is but one God; that there was none; that the Holy Ghost is younger than God; that God was somewhat older than his son; for insisting that good works will save a man without faith; that faith will do without good works; for declaring that a sweet babe will not be burned eternally, because its parents failed to have its head wet by a priest; for speaking of God as though he had a nose; for denying that Christ was his own father; for contending that three persons, rightly added together, make more than one; for believing in purgatory; for denying the reality of hell; for pretending that priests can forgive sins; for preaching that God is an essence; for denying that witches rode through the air on sticks; for doubting the total depravity of the human heart; for laughing at irresistible grace, predestination and particular redemption; for denying that good bread could be made of the body of a dead man; for pretending that the pope was not managing this world for God, and in the place of God; for disputing the efficacy of a vicarious atonement; for thinking the Virgin Mary was born like other people; for thinking that a man's rib was hardly sufficient to make a good- sized woman; for denying that God used his finger for a pen; for asserting that prayers are not answered, that diseases are not sent to punish unbelief; for denying the authority of the Bible; for having a Bible in their possession; for attending mass, and for refusing to attend; for wearing a surplice; for carrying a cross, and for refusing; for being a Catholic, and for being a Protestant; for being an Episcopalian, a Presbyterian, a Baptist, and for being a Quaker. In short, every virtue has been a crime, and every crime a virtue. The church has burned honesty and rewarded hypocrisy. And all this, because it was commanded by a book -- a book that men had been taught implicitly to believe, long before they knew one word that was in it. They had been taught that to doubt the truth of this book -- to examine it, even -- was a crime of such enormity that it could not be forgiven, either in this world or in the next.

The Bible was the real persecutor. The Bible burned heretics, built dungeons, founded the Inquisition, and trampled upon all the liberties of men. How long, O how long will mankind worship a book? How long will they grovel in the dust before the ignorant legends of the barbaric past? How long, O how long will they pursue phantoms in a darkness deeper than death?...


Why I Am Agnostic
http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/robert_ingersoll/why_i_am_agnostic.html

For the most part we inherit our opinions. We are the heirs of
habits and mental customs. Our beliefs, like the fashion of our
garments, depend on where we were born. We are molded and fashioned
by our surroundings.

Environment is a sculptor -- a painter.

If we had been born in Constantinople, the most of us would
have said: "There is no God but Allah, and Mohammed is his
prophet." If our parents had lived on the banks of the Ganges, we
would have been worshipers of Siva, longing for the heaven of
Nirvana.

As a rule, children love their parents, believe what they
teach, and take great pride in saying that the religion of mother
is good enough for them.

Most people love peace. They do not like to differ with their
neighbors. They like company. They are social. They enjoy traveling
on the highway with the multitude. They hate to walk alone.

The Scotch are Calvinists because their fathers were. The
Irish are Catholics because their fathers were. The English are
Episcopalians because their fathers were, and the Americans are
divided in a hundred sects because their fathers were. This is the
general rule, to which there are many exceptions. Children
sometimes are superior to their parents, modify their ideas, change
their customs, and arrive at different conclusions. But this is
generally so gradual that the departure is scarcely noticed, and
those who change usually insist that they are still following the
fathers...


Some Mistakes of Moses (1879)
http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/robert_ingersoll/some_mistakes_of_moses.html

Of course God knew when he made man, that he would afterwards
regret it. He knew that the people would grow worse and worse until
destruction would be the only remedy. He knew that he would have to
kill all except Noah and his family, and it is hard to see why he
did not make Noah and his family in the first place, and leave Adam
and Eve in the original dust. He knew that they would be tempted,
that he would have to drive them out of the garden to keep them
from eating of the tree of life; that the whole thing would be a
failure; that Satan would defeat his plan; that he could not reform
the people; that his own sons would corrupt them, and that at last
he would have to drown them all except Noah and his family. Why was
the Garden of Eden planted? Why was the experiment made? Why were
Adam and Eve exposed to the seductive arts of the serpent? Why did
God wait until the cool of the day before looking after his
children? Why was he not on hand in the morning? Why did he fill
the world with his own children, knowing that he would have to
destroy them? And why does this same God tell me how to raise my
children when he had to drown his?...

According to Moses, God made up his mind not only to destroy
the people, but the beasts and the creeping things, and the fowls
of the air. What had creeping things, and the fowls of the air
done? What had the beasts, and the birds done to excite the anger
of God? Why did he repent having made them? Will some Christian
give us an explanation of this matter? No good man will inflict
unnecessary pain upon a beast; how then can we worship a god who
cares nothing for the agonies of the dumb creatures that he made?

Why did he make animals that he knew he would destroy? Does
God delight in causing pain? He had the power to make the beasts,
and fowls, and creeping things in his own good time and way, and it
is to be presumed that he made them according to his wish. Why
should he destroy them? They had committed no sin. They had eaten
no forbidden fruit, made no aprons, nor tried to reach the tree of
life. Yet this god, in blind unreasoning wrath destroyed "all flesh
wherein was the breath of life, and every living thing beneath the
sky, and every substance wherein was life that he had made."...


The Gods (1872)
http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/robert_ingersoll/gods.html

Each nation has created a god, and the god has always resembled his creators. He hated and loved what they hated and loved, and he was invariably found on the side of those in power. Each god was intensely patriotic, and detested all nations but his own. All these gods demanded praise, flattery, and worship. Most of them were pleased with sacrifice, and the smell of innocent blood has ever been considered a divine perfume. All these gods have insisted upon having a vast number of priests, and the priests have always insisted upon being supported by the people, and the principal business of these priests has been to boast about their god, and to insist that he could easily vanquish all the other gods put together.

These gods have been manufactured after numberless models, and according to the most grotesque fashions. Some have a thousand arms, some a hundred heads, some are adorned with necklaces of living snakes, some are armed with clubs, some with sword and shield, some with bucklers, and some have wings as a cherub; some were invisible, some would show themselves entire, and some would only show their backs; some were jealous, some were foolish, some turned themselves into men, some into swans, some into bulls, some into doves, and some into Holy Ghosts, and made love to the beautiful daughters of men. Some were married -- all ought to have been -- and some were considered as old bachelors from all eternity. Some had children, and the children were turned into gods and worshiped as their fathers had been. Most of these gods were revengeful, savage, lustful, and ignorant. As they generally depended upon their priests for information, their ignorance can hardly excite our astonishment.

These gods did not even know the shape of the worlds they had created, but supposed them perfectly flat. Some thought the day could be lengthened by stopping the sun, that the blowing of horns could throw down the walls of a city, and all knew so little of the real nature of the people they had created, that they commanded the people to love them. Some were so ignorant as to suppose that man could believe just as he might desire, or as they might command, and that to be governed by observation, reason, and experience was a most foul and damning sin. None of these gods could give a true account of the creation of this little earth. All were woefully deficient in geology and astronomy. As a rule, they were most miserable legislators, and as executives, they were far inferior to the average of American presidents.

These deities have demanded the most abject and degrading obedience. In order to please them, man must lay his very face in the dust. Of course, they have always been partial to the people who created them, and have generally shown their partiality by assisting those people to rob and destroy others, and to ravish their wives and daughters.

Nothing is so pleasing to these gods as the butchery of unbelievers. Nothing so enrages them, even now, as to have someone deny their existence...


Works of Robert G. Ingersoll (with additional biographical material)
http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/robert_ingersoll/index.shtml





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